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Agori & Glatorian and their Implants

glatorian agori spherus magna implants biomechanical

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#1 Offline NuvaTube

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Posted Dec 28 2013 - 02:15 PM

On Spherus/Bara Magna, the Bionicle theme of being biomechanical was continued. But unlike the inhabitants of the Matoran Universe, Spherus Magnans do not have mechanical components from their inception.

 

Sahmad said something interesting on implants. It was in Sahmad's Tale, when he has just awoken (in an illusion) to a Utopian society of Spherus Magnans and MU inhabitants, and is very skeptical that this could ever happen:

 

"You've been asleep for 750 years, Sahmad."

There was a moment then, just a moment, mind you, when I felt rattled. I mean, it could have been true. The monster might have chewed us up and spat us out. Someone might have found Metus and I and kept us alive. All Agori and Glatorian might be living as brothers and sisters in a beautiful new city, ready to welcome even survivors of the Iron Tribe into their arms.

And Thornax fruit might taste like boiled Skopio meat, and the Great Beings might be handing out gift baskets of implants, but I wasn't ready to believe that either.

 

The quote suggests that implants are highly desired and expensive.

 

1. If they are a commodity and expensive, I guess anyone born post-Shattering is unlikely to have received the augmentations. Given their long lifespans, I don't think there were too many Agori or Glatorian born, but I'm sure there must have been some. So. would we agree that there are probably some "all natural" Agori and Glatorian around?

 

I think it would be cool to explore the social consequences these differences would make. I can see some friction between the "natural" and the "augmented" (I suddenly thought of the game Deus Ex: Human Revolution). Before the Shattering, I guess there must have been those who objected/declined implants on personal moral grounds etc. However, in the harsh environment of Bara Magna, I think people would have had higher priorities, like surviving. So I guess any "natural"  Glatorian may have been seen as inferior and so had a harder time getting employed.

 

I think it's interesting that it seems that most Agori and Glatorian do have implants. If all, or virtually all of these implants were received pre-Shattering, than it seems that society had widely accepted the change. It's interesting really; whilst technology is having a greater and greater effect on our real-world lives I doubt many of us would willingly lose perfectly good body parts because we think a mechanical version is better. Well, actually it's quite an interesting debate, because I'm sure some people would. Given the presence of things like hydraulic pistons in the Spherus Magnan sets, I think that there's a strong implication that some of these implants were drastically noticeable and significant.  In a world were such things are available things could escalate into an arms race of sorts, where people are pressured to get implants because they'll get "left behind" if they don't. Gosh! this really reminds me of Deus Ex: Human Revolution XD (and the original Cybermen from Doctor Who)

 

 

2. If Mata Nui's body was similar to that of a Toa, wouldn't the Glatorian and Agori initially have taken him for a Glatorian with lots of implants, who strangely seemed to like wearing armour literally all the time? XD

 

3. It seems, due to the Legend Reborn, that Glatorian [with implants] are about as physically capable to Toa, since Mata Nui seemed matched or certainly comparable to the Glatorian there (assuming his body was similar to a Toa's). D'we think so guys?

 

 

4. Oh, and does anyone have any idea why basically all animals on Spherus Magna that we've seen seem to have implants too? I know animals like the Iron Wolves were modified for combat etc. But why animals like Scarabaxes and Skopios? And surely this is a bit of a one-off, since I don't see how the benefits of these implants could apply after one generation, since offspring won't have them? Did the GBs really meddle with all of them. Not joking, but the sheer logistics...>< (I guess if they can make things like Masks of Rahi Control maybe it's not that difficult though)

 

Yeah, not trying to achieve anything specific here, but I just thought this was a really interesting aspect of the Bionicle lore and hence worth discussing.


Edited by NuvaTube, Dec 29 2013 - 12:28 PM.

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#2 Offline Toa of Italy

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Posted Dec 29 2013 - 11:36 AM

It is an interesting aspect, all right. However, I don't think the scenarios you describe would necessarily take place.

 

My theory on these issues is that the use of cybernetics on Spherus Magna has been going on for a very long time, even compared to Agori standards. In fact, since Sahmad mentions the Great Beings handing out implants, I theorize that the Great Beings implemented this change when they first rose to power, which as far as we know might have happened millions of years before current storyline. Since they were scientist-kings, they might have used cybernetics to change their society for the better.

First they applied them to Agori and Glatorian and therefore allowed them to overcome some of the physical limitations of solely organic creatures (I don't mean only strength or endurance; I don't know if you've noticed but in all Bionicle storyline we've never encountered disease in the traditional sense and I guess cybernetics might have had something to do with it). Then they used them on animals and this made the environment more controllable and more useful as a whole to the sapient species (we know, for example, that Spherus Magna had ships that were actually living creatures). You have a point about logistics but consider that, as I said, the Great Beings might have been in power for hundreds of thousands of years, which gave them all the time they needed. For the same reason, any problem caused by the SM society transformation would have probably been long forgotten by the time the Core War started.

 

I also don't think that a separation caused by the lack of implants in newborns would have occurred on Bara Magna (we still don't know exactly what went on on Bota Magna in the meantime, so I won't mention it): while Agori society lost the ability to create anything new, we know they did retain some technological expertise; we have even seen Agori such as Berix being proficient at handling cybernetic implants. As for the availability of the parts, I guess that due to harsh conditions, more Agori (and Glatorian) died on Bara Magna than were born. This may sound cruel, but I don't see the survivors as being above scavenging the corpses for parts they could use, so I don't believe availability was ever a problem. Of course, the implant quality would have deteriorated over time and this might explain Sahmad's quote: the implants built directly by the great Beings were probably remembered as being of far better quality

than those the Bara Magna natives possessed at the time of Spherus Magna's reunification.

 

 

 


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#3 Offline NuvaTube

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Posted Dec 29 2013 - 12:52 PM

It is an interesting aspect, all right. However, I don't think the scenarios you describe would necessarily take place.

 

My theory on these issues is that the use of cybernetics on Spherus Magna has been going on for a very long time, even compared to Agori standards. In fact, since Sahmad mentions the Great Beings handing out implants, I theorize that the Great Beings implemented this change when they first rose to power, which as far as we know might have happened millions of years before current storyline. Since they were scientist-kings, they might have used cybernetics to change their society for the better.

First they applied them to Agori and Glatorian and therefore allowed them to overcome some of the physical limitations of solely organic creatures (I don't mean only strength or endurance; I don't know if you've noticed but in all Bionicle storyline we've never encountered disease in the traditional sense and I guess cybernetics might have had something to do with it). Then they used them on animals and this made the environment more controllable and more useful as a whole to the sapient species (we know, for example, that Spherus Magna had ships that were actually living creatures). You have a point about logistics but consider that, as I said, the Great Beings might have been in power for hundreds of thousands of years, which gave them all the time they needed. For the same reason, any problem caused by the SM society transformation would have probably been long forgotten by the time the Core War started.

 

I also don't think that a separation caused by the lack of implants in newborns would have occurred on Bara Magna (we still don't know exactly what went on on Bota Magna in the meantime, so I won't mention it): while Agori society lost the ability to create anything new, we know they did retain some technological expertise; we have even seen Agori such as Berix being proficient at handling cybernetic implants. As for the availability of the parts, I guess that due to harsh conditions, more Agori (and Glatorian) died on Bara Magna than were born. This may sound cruel, but I don't see the survivors as being above scavenging the corpses for parts they could use, so I don't believe availability was ever a problem. Of course, the implant quality would have deteriorated over time and this might explain Sahmad's quote: the implants built directly by the great Beings were probably remembered as being of far better quality

than those the Bara Magna natives possessed at the time of Spherus Magna's reunification.

 

 

 

 

 

Wow really interesting points!

 

I think disease would be more to do with vaccination/nanites than more conventional macroscopic cybernetics, though. It would make sense for there to be no disease in the MU, but on Spherus Magna things could be more risky. The problem with synthesizing protection against things like disease is that if for whatever reason infrastructure broke down to such an extent that the general population could no longer effectively receive these synthetic benefits, you would have a population at extreme risk from even mild ailments. History has numerous examples of different groups that meet, and since they have not adapted to one another, one side usually gets wiped out. Remote human tribes that die out because their immunity could not cope with a common cold from colonisers/explorers etc.

 

If we take the Glatorian/Agori as the unfortunate tribe, but with the benefit of GB cybernetic immunity, where replacing this immunity may not be as easy as replacing an implant, there's a big risk. I'm just saying that I think it would be very risky on the GB's part to grant immunity unless they were very sure that:

 

a) They can keep providing immunity to whatever kind of disease pops up

b) Nothing catastrophic like your planet blowing up leaves things in such a state that you can't really continue to give the remaining population this immunity, since if you can't a sudden epidemic of the common cold might actually leave the species endangered.

 

I guess you're right about the different social issues of getting implants would probably be a long way back in their history. I think that post-Shattering newborns would have still happened. Sure, I don't think many did, and more people died than anything, but I think there would still be some. If the Agori/Glatorian were cybernetic organisms in an of themselves, it's plausible that their offspring could also get the benefits of mechanical components, through things like nano-bot cells etc. But the word "implants" show that they are augmentations that are received (Due to growth, they would probably only be received when a person reached adulthood, otherwise you would need to update implants periodically. Unless of course these implants can expand with the persons growth, which is the kind of thing the GB's would probably find a way of doing). So, same thing for the animals: do their offspring get implants too, and if so: how?

 

The idea of them scavenging implants from the dead seems disturbing but extremely likely. Nothing personal, just survival I guess.


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#4 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 29 2013 - 02:01 PM

We actually saw quite a few SM animals that didn't appear to have any metal parts, though what percentage it is, isn't clear. As to why they did that, IMO "because they can" for the most part. :P Although I'm sure they had some more specific reason in each case, probably trying to balance out the ecosystem better.

 

As to the rest, not much to add. Most of what's been said in here so far looks sensible. One thing though is that the GBs were still around after the Shattering, and I'm not sure if we know that they didn't still "hand out implants". We know they're somewhere on the planet but they sure seem completely withdrawn by the time Mata Nui comes. But that might not have happened instantly. :shrugs:

 

Might also have been a backlog of available implants, though that seems unlikely too.


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#5 Offline NickonAquaMagna

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Posted Dec 29 2013 - 03:52 PM

Ah, this is one of my favorite topics of discussion! ...However, it is also my greatest contention with The Legend Reborn.

 

What you said about how the Bara Magnans would view Mata Nui is something that's crossed my mind, however, you must consider that as far as the Lego sets go, such things are inconsequential. They always have been. They reused old Bionicle pieces instead of molding new, sleeker, more "organic" looking molds because, well, recycling older builds is cheaper. Heck, I doubt all of the animals we see, like the Spikit, really have any mechanics in them at all. To be honest, the way I'd imagine the Bara Magnans being if they were real looks NOTHING like the lego sets... or like the character models in The Legend Reborn.

 

In the earlier Bionicle Movies, very few of the characters looked like the actual Lego sets. Depending on who you ask, this is a bad thing, but for me, not really. In some cases, the character designers did go WAAAAAAAAAY overboard (Nivawk is a good example), but in some cases, they made the characters beautiful (such as the Toa Metru). The movies were where we were really introduced to the idea that the Matoran, Toa and so on have real muscles and organs somewhere in their protodermic exoskeletons, and that they're essentially reverse-cyborgs and not "just robots".

 

Uuuuggghhhh.... Does it bug anyone else when people call them robots just because that's what's the sets look like at a glance?

 

Anyway, with the Legend Reborn, I'd just taken it for granted that the designers would take those same artistic liberties and portray the Bara Magnans as they are in the story... but then I saw the trailers. ...sigh.

 

I guess it can't be helped that they wanted to increase the sales of the toys by making the characters more greatly resemble the toys, but in the end, there's just one problem...

 

It's extremely inaccurate and contradicts the story. This visual interpretation of them, with the moving axles an' whatnot making the characters look less organic and more robotic than ever is... well... wrong. When that Vorox's tail just... POPPED OFF, I facepalmed. That's just bad, right there.

 

Therefore, I don't think we can take the movie or even the sets for granted as accurate depictions of Bara Magnan physiology... heck, it was already kind of a stretch with the "Aqua Magnans", as we could call our old heroes... but I guess that could never be helped.


Edited by NickonAquaMagna, Dec 29 2013 - 04:09 PM.

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#6 Offline NuvaTube

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Posted Dec 29 2013 - 04:28 PM

One thing though is that the GBs were still around after the Shattering, and I'm not sure if we know that they didn't still "hand out implants". We know they're somewhere on the planet but they sure seem completely withdrawn by the time Mata Nui comes. But that might not have happened instantly. :shrugs:

 

Good point

 

 

They reused old Bionicle pieces instead of molding new, sleeker, more "organic" looking molds because, well, recycling older builds is cheaper. Heck, I doubt all of the animals we see, like the Spikit, really have any mechanics in them at all. To be honest, the way I'd imagine the Bara Magnans being if they were real looks NOTHING like the lego sets... or like the character models in The Legend Reborn.

 

 

I think Greg said that the sets are always the closest thing to what they actually look like. Which I hate. The statement is purely political so Lego always has the canon upper-hand. As for the Spherus Magnans, you can put things on the fact that they're wearing armour, and their implants as explaining most of the hydraulic pistons. That's what I do anyway. That being said, still I imagine Matoran and Toa to look like these:

 

[Blatant self promotion]: http://nuvatube.devi...neart-364118632

 

This gal's art (Oyee) is amazing <3 : http://www.deviantar...Stelt-203325469

 

 

And Glatorian to look a little like this (Tayanacon's another great Bionicle artist):

 

http://tayanacon.dev...aasuf-185744870

 

And since we're mentioning offspring, here's a baby Agori: http://tayanacon.dev...-Vloe-182008352

 

About the animals, I guess many of them may not have mechanical components, and that it's just how the sets have to be. After all, LEGO made human characters and sold them like this: http://images2.wikia...2-Wall-LEGO.jpg

 

So then it becomes an annoying matter of what's what: which ones are biomechanical, which ones just have armour, which ones are biomechanical with armour, and which ones are organic but are just look mechanical in the sets? These are the questions that bug me on this matter XD

 

I did prefer it when the films modified the characters like they did in the original trilogy. But I understand why LEGO went like the sets in TLR, even if I don't like it.

 

Therefore, I don't think we can take the movie or even the sets for granted as accurate depictions of Bara Magnan physiology... heck, it was already kind of a stretch with the "Aqua Magnans", as we could call our old heroes... but I guess that could never be helped.

 

If by Aqua Magnans you mean like on Mata Nui, with the Toa Mata etc...you do know they were from the Matoran Universe and are thus about 85% mechanical and 15% organic. So...yeah. The sets are much more accurate with them I reckon. 


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#7 Offline NickonAquaMagna

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Posted Dec 29 2013 - 04:53 PM

Oh, indeed the sets are much MORE accurate with the MU residents, but still not completely. That's pretty much impossible, that's my point.

 

But, anyway... I can't help imagining how hard life would be with all those metal parts jammed into someone's body. I mean, it's a desert world. As in hot. Don't these guys ever get seared by their own piston's an whatnot?


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#8 Offline fishers64

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Posted Dec 29 2013 - 06:15 PM

One point I want to make off the OP (#2-#3): 
 

9) No. Toa Mata Nui is primarily organic. Other MU Toa are primarily mechanical, so he cannot merge with them. Mata Nui is really not a Toa -- he is a Great Spirit who had to make a body for himself.

 
The Mata Nui Ignika body is more organic than MU bodies.
 

Oh, indeed the sets are much MORE accurate with the MU residents, but still not completely. That's pretty much impossible, that's my point.
 
But, anyway... I can't help imagining how hard life would be with all those metal parts jammed into someone's body. I mean, it's a desert world. As in hot. Don't these guys ever get seared by their own piston's an whatnot?


Implants are inside your body. You can use a pacemaker in the desert without being burned, as opposed to the really hot wrench you picked up off the sidewalk.


Edited by fishers64, Dec 29 2013 - 06:18 PM.

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#9 Offline NickonAquaMagna

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Posted Dec 29 2013 - 07:10 PM

I'm talking about the pistons an' whatnot, things that would be visibly jutting out of the body, like in a cyberpunk world. I think the implants were talking about with the Bara Magnans don't as often tend to be artificial organs as, say, a giant claw for an arm or something like that.


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#10 Offline Ghabulous Ghoti

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Posted Dec 29 2013 - 11:19 PM

Wait, how many of the animals actually DID have implants? I only seem to remember Iron Wolves having anything. The portrayals in TLR weren't the most canon things in the world, and the only other set we got that year with a rahi creature in it was that Skipit thing? Sorry if I got the name wrong, but it pulled a chariot for an Iron Agori. Anyway, that could have just been armored up by that Agori.


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#11 Offline Toa of Italy

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Posted Dec 30 2013 - 03:33 AM

So, same thing for the animals: do their offspring get implants too, and if so: how?

 

I think there are two possible explanations as far as this issue is concerned.

 

It might be (again, I'm speaking only about Bara Magna, since we don't know enough about Bota Magna) that all the cybernetic creatures we encountered in the storyline are actually over 100 000 years old. Their descendants wouldn't, as you pointed out, have received their implants, but this would have made them weaker and as such less useful to Bara Magnan society, in the case of Spikit, Rock Steeds and Sand Stalkers (and since they didn't use solely organic creatures, we didn't see them) or more dangerous (a bio-mechanical Skopio is probably more dangerous than an organic one and as a result we only met the cybernetic one, which is actually a credible threat).

 

However, I think my second hypothesis is more plausible. We know that implants are not an integral part of Agori anatomy and that they're not born with them and don't necessarily need them to survive. However, I don't think any such thing has been said for the creatures. My theory is that, since the Great Beings couldn't hope to keep track of all animal offspring and equip them with cybernetic implants, they made it so that the implants would actually be passed on to newborns, like the Rahi inside the MU (which, if I'm not mistaken, do reproduce, even though sapient species do not). They didn't do this to the sapient species, probably for ethical reasons, but if, as I pointed out earlier, their purpose was to keep the Spherus Magna environment under control, then a similar mechanism would make sense at least for non-sapient species.


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#12 Offline NuvaTube

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Posted Dec 30 2013 - 04:33 AM

One point I want to make off the OP (#2-#3): 
 

9) No. Toa Mata Nui is primarily organic. Other MU Toa are primarily mechanical, so he cannot merge with them. Mata Nui is really not a Toa -- he is a Great Spirit who had to make a body for himself.

 
The Mata Nui Ignika body is more organic than MU bodies.

 

:0 did not know that...

 

Wait, how many of the animals actually DID have implants? I only seem to remember Iron Wolves having anything. The portrayals in TLR weren't the most canon things in the world, and the only other set we got that year with a rahi creature in it was that Skipit thing? Sorry if I got the name wrong, but it pulled a chariot for an Iron Agori. Anyway, that could have just been armored up by that Agori.

 

We don't know for sure, aside from the Iron Wolves. I'm pretty sure Click was meant to be biomechanical, probably the Rock Steeds too IMO, but we don't really know.


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#13 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 30 2013 - 09:20 AM

It's extremely inaccurate and contradicts the story. This visual interpretation of them, with the moving axles an' whatnot making the characters look less organic and more robotic than ever is... well... wrong. When that Vorox's tail just... POPPED OFF, I facepalmed. That's just bad, right there.

What do you mean? Vorox tails are totally mechanical, added by the Great Beings. They very well could "pop off". I must say I don't remember this moment, though. :P It might not have looked quite how it "really would."

 

I think Greg said that the sets are always the closest thing to what they actually look like. Which I hate. The statement is purely political so Lego always has the canon upper-hand.

Not exactly. The movie forms are generally most canon. Also, any alterations you would see in comics are more canon than sets (though usually this is just a matter of the eyes glowing) [Edit: Okay, not "any" -- the Piraka spines disappearing into thin air in Sayger's style for example would be an exception.]. But the sets are meant to be representative of their canon form. So any portrayal that is radically different from the sets is less canon at the point where it strongly deviates. The stock example is the movie Rahaga's helicopter blades. Canonically they "ride" Rhotuka energy spinners instead, and you can tell without needing to consult the story team by the fact that the sets don't have attached helicopter blades but instead a Rhotuka launcher.

 

But the set isn't the closest to how they actually look there either. For one thing, the huge zipcord piece is entirely nonexistent and is only there to make the toy work. Rhotuka launchers would look like the movie form on the backs of the Hordika. Also, the style of the body of the Rahaga in the movie is much more accurate.

 

So... yes and no. :P

 

I'm pretty sure Click was meant to be biomechanical, probably the Rock Steeds too IMO, but we don't really know.

Well, let's look at the images for those. With Scarabax, first there is a "promotional" image that I'd say probably represents their natural form:

 

http://biosector01.c...abax_Beetle.PNG

 

The movie and comics both agree on their modified form:

 

http://biosector01.c...8/TLR_Click.png

http://biosector01.c...ic-Scarabax.png

 

While there is also a set form:

 

http://biosector01.c...9/Set_Click.PNG

 

Clearly the set is only representative, thus "less canon". The movie/comic form should be taken as essentially correct. However, the set does try to approximate that. So, the mechanical-looking parts of the set are not necessarily canon, but the ones that are still shown in comic form, and/or movie form, definitely are canon.

 

So, with Rock Steeds, the set doesn't show an internal organic part, and the comic doesn't make that clear either but I think we can presume it. Since the comic form agrees with the set shape for the most part, I think we do have to conclude they have a metal exterior. Most of the metal involved there may just be external armor. The BS01 description implies the Bone Hunters were the first to discover the creatures, implying the GBs couldn't have done alterations themselves, so the Bone Hunters probably put armor on them.

 

Skopio, by contrast, is clearly stated to be modified. The same principle still applies though IMO. The unseen interior is what is organic for the most part, and there would be a natural unmodified version with the same basic shape but without the mechanical/tech features or armor.

 

With Spikit, they were used during the time of the rule of the GBs so could have been modified, but it isn't stated. I don't see much that would likely represent mechanical features, so we could take them also as armored, added either by GBs or Agori. That helmet appearance also seems to imply the orange-reddish thing underneath is organic, also giving evidence for external armor.


Edited by bonesiii, Dec 30 2013 - 11:42 AM.

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#14 Offline fishers64

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Posted Dec 30 2013 - 02:09 PM

Also the Agori/Glatorian might have modified/put implants in domesticated service animals. Teluris was directly stated to have modded the Scopio and Sorel (pretty sure I misspelled that) was said to have hung around the Iron Wolves. He could have put the implants in the offspring. 

 

Also, where does it say that Rahi reproduce naturally? I don't buy it; the Makuta made those. 


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#15 Offline NuvaTube

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Posted Dec 30 2013 - 03:40 PM

Also, where does it say that Rahi reproduce naturally? I don't buy it; the Makuta made those. 

 

The Makuta made Rahi in the Matoran Universe, but had nothing to do with Spherus Magna. We're talking about the animals on Bara Magna (an so were also on Spherus Magna). Glatorain and Agori are described as being like mammals and having the ability to reproduce. So there is no reason to think that the animals on their planet don't reproduce too.


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#16 Offline fishers64

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Posted Dec 30 2013 - 03:44 PM

 

Also, where does it say that Rahi reproduce naturally? I don't buy it; the Makuta made those. 

 

The Makuta made Rahi in the Matoran Universe, but had nothing to do with Spherus Magna. We're talking about the animals on Bara Magna (an so were also on Spherus Magna). Glatorain and Agori are described as being like mammals and having the ability to reproduce. So there is no reason to think that the animals on their planet don't reproduce too.

 

I'm referring to this: (sorry for not being clear)

 My theory is that, since the Great Beings couldn't hope to keep track of all animal offspring and equip them with cybernetic implants, they made it so that the implants would actually be passed on to newborns, like the Rahi inside the MU (which, if I'm not mistaken, do reproduce, even though sapient species do not). They didn't do this to the sapient species, probably for ethical reasons, but if, as I pointed out earlier, their purpose was to keep the Spherus Magna environment under control, then a similar mechanism would make sense at least for non-sapient species.

 


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#17 Offline Chro

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Posted Jan 02 2014 - 09:32 AM

I'd think that it might be plausible that the Makuta designed some Rahi that could reproduce, although that's not my personal interpretation of the story... as fishers said, the Makuta just made the Rahi.

 

When that Vorox's tail just... POPPED OFF, I facepalmed. That's just bad, right there.

Beware my stinger tail!


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#18 Offline NuvaTube

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Posted Jan 02 2014 - 09:44 AM

I'd think that it might be plausible that the Makuta designed some Rahi that could reproduce, although that's not my personal interpretation of the story... as fishers said, the Makuta just made the Rahi.

 

When that Vorox's tail just... POPPED OFF, I facepalmed. That's just bad, right there.

Beware my stinger tail!

 

I'm sure they could have, but we know that they didn't.


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