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Time Loop


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9 replies to this topic

#1 Offline nocturn701

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Posted Jan 02 2014 - 10:02 AM

I have a theory about a time loop in the Bionicle world because when I was reading Bionicle book 11 (the final battle) the Toa Nuva were in these separate canisters (Toa Mata's arrival) and in the book it said: The Toa now wait to be jettisoned to a place that needs them most. I thought that that was meaning that the Toa would be sent to Mata Nui and somewhere along the way time would all of a sudden restart and the Toa Nuva would be transformed back into the Toa Mata and somehow all of their previous knowledge and understanding of stuff would be erased and they would emerge on Mata Nui and do every thing they already did over again, same as every one else in the world of Bionicle. That was my time loop theory.   


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#2 Offline Primis

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Posted Jan 02 2014 - 12:33 PM

It's been a while since I've read The Final Battle, is that the one with the flashbacks to the Toa Mata's origin and training?


Edited by Primis, Jan 02 2014 - 12:33 PM.

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#3 Offline Katuko

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Posted Jan 02 2014 - 12:43 PM

The part about the canisters were indeed just a flashback. At this point in the story they have already been sent to the place that needed them, and time travel has been stated by Greg to be impossible. A potential time loop that exists, though, is the message that Krakua sent from the future to Vakama. It's never been confirmed exactly where or when he sent it from, but if he sent it from the future it has naturally changed the past a bit.

Edited by Katuko, Jan 02 2014 - 12:44 PM.

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#4 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jan 02 2014 - 03:49 PM

It's been a while since I've read The Final Battle, is that the one with the flashbacks to the Toa Mata's origin and training?

No, that's the Secrets of the Swamp

 

The part about the canisters were indeed just a flashback. At this point in the story they have already been sent to the place that needed them, and time travel has been stated by Greg to be impossible. A potential time loop that exists, though, is the message that Krakua sent from the future to Vakama. It's never been confirmed exactly where or when he sent it from, but if he sent it from the future it has naturally changed the past a bit.

I have a theory about this. (It's sort of based on Orson Scott Card's Pathfinder series, so if you've read that it will make a bit more sense.)

 

My theory is that there is a future where Krakua did not deliver his message to Vakama. If you'll recall, it was Krakua's message that inspired Vakama to risk destroying the Vahi in that confrontation with Makuta, and it told Vakama that he was going to have to send the Nuva and the Inika on their way, and "wait and hope."

 

This means that there is a future in which Vakama did NOT risk destroying the Vahi, but instead fled Metru Nui with the Vahi in terror or whatever he did. In THAT future, Toa Krakua ended up defending an island fortress somewhere (maybe on Mata Nui?) and realized that he was in trouble, and that all of his current problems and inevitable disaster was caused by that one moment between Vakama and Makuta. So he sent the message to Vakama, in that past. 

 

Now, there is a reality where Vakama received the message. This message is sent from his future, his future that would have been if he had NOT received the message, but now that he has received the message, the future changes so that message is never sent. There is no island fortress and no Krakua defending it because the future has changed so those things don't exist or happen. 

 

Does that make sense?


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#5 Offline Katuko

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Posted Jan 02 2014 - 04:25 PM

Does that make sense?

As much as any time travel story can make sense, yes. The "original" messages ends up lost, but it still reached its target in the past and that's all that matters.

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#6 Offline NuvaTube

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Posted Jan 02 2014 - 04:40 PM

 

Does that make sense?

As much as any time travel story can make sense, yes. The "original" messages ends up lost, but it still reached its target in the past and that's all that matters.

 

 

Well there are different ideas of time travel. I wonder what Greg would say about what kind of time travel Bionicle allows (you can't have people time travelling but clearly you can have information time travel).

 

1. Is it like a time travel where no matter what you do you will inevitably do exactly what is meant to happen? So maybe if you go back in time to try and kill your grandfather you actually end up becoming your own grandfather, hence you actually participate in your own history in a way that causes no paradox or affects the future such that it is in any way different from the future you came from.

 

2. Is it one that ends up in an alternate timeline? So you go back in time to kill your own grandfather and you succeed. Then you live in a universe where your mother/father or yuo are ever born, and every tiny effect that your would-be family would have had don't happen. So you create/end up in an alternate universe?

 

3. Is it one where if you create a paradox (like killing your own grandfather) the Universe just implodes because you broke logic?

 

I reckon Bionicle would allow 1 or 2, but not 3. I generally prefer having time travel like 1, but given evidence from the Bionicle canon, namely the presence of alternate universes, I have to admit that type 2 is most likely.


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#7 Offline Ghabulous Ghoti

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Posted Jan 02 2014 - 10:04 PM


I have a theory about this. (It's sort of based on Orson Scott Card's Pathfinder series, so if you've read that it will make a bit more sense.)

 

My theory is that there is a future where Krakua did not deliver his message to Vakama. If you'll recall, it was Krakua's message that inspired Vakama to risk destroying the Vahi in that confrontation with Makuta, and it told Vakama that he was going to have to send the Nuva and the Inika on their way, and "wait and hope."

 

This means that there is a future in which Vakama did NOT risk destroying the Vahi, but instead fled Metru Nui with the Vahi in terror or whatever he did. In THAT future, Toa Krakua ended up defending an island fortress somewhere (maybe on Mata Nui?) and realized that he was in trouble, and that all of his current problems and inevitable disaster was caused by that one moment between Vakama and Makuta. So he sent the message to Vakama, in that past. 

 

Now, there is a reality where Vakama received the message. This message is sent from his future, his future that would have been if he had NOT received the message, but now that he has received the message, the future changes so that message is never sent. There is no island fortress and no Krakua defending it because the future has changed so those things don't exist or happen. 

 

Does that make sense?

 

Actually, this makes a heck of a lot of sense. I much prefer when fictional stories have solid reasons for alternate universes being, well, alternate, as opposed to "the character just made a different choice" or something like that.

 

 

Well there are different ideas of time travel. I wonder what Greg would say about what kind of time travel Bionicle allows (you can't have people time travelling but clearly you can have information time travel).

 

1. Is it like a time travel where no matter what you do you will inevitably do exactly what is meant to happen? So maybe if you go back in time to try and kill your grandfather you actually end up becoming your own grandfather, hence you actually participate in your own history in a way that causes no paradox or affects the future such that it is in any way different from the future you came from.

 

2. Is it one that ends up in an alternate timeline? So you go back in time to kill your own grandfather and you succeed. Then you live in a universe where your mother/father or yuo are ever born, and every tiny effect that your would-be family would have had don't happen. So you create/end up in an alternate universe?

 

3. Is it one where if you create a paradox (like killing your own grandfather) the Universe just implodes because you broke logic?

 

I reckon Bionicle would allow 1 or 2, but not 3. I generally prefer having time travel like 1, but given evidence from the Bionicle canon, namely the presence of alternate universes, I have to admit that type 2 is most likely.

 

So, 1 is immutable time, 2 is mutable time, and 3 is an immovable object getting hit with a Double Reverse Falcon Punch?


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#8 Online bonesiii

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Posted Jan 02 2014 - 10:40 PM

NT, unfortunately there's no clear answer because Bitil's mask also gives us evidence for #1. I agree #3 is unlikely, although breaking the Vahi would be kinda like that. Of course, this is what Greg's own rule against time travel was supposed to prevent the need to figure out... which he's sort of kinda broken so many times now lol... but yeah.

 

fishers, your theory is plausible. Given Greg's statement that he had nothing particular in mind with that for future story and now that the story is apparently finished, I might prefer it just to tidy things up. But if there was to be a Bionicle return I think I'd prefer an "it was from the actual future, ensuring that that future would happen" thing, just because an island fortress under siege sounds fun for a return lol.

 

To the topic starter -- canisters cannot time travel. But you probably know that now. :P Also, as much as I personally enjoy thinking about time travel, I don't see what would be the benefit in going to all that trouble; since they were already made as Toa Mata in the first place and already had all that history, the only end result would be that they are essentially destroyed -- that they cease existing in the future after the point when they went back (in the theory). So why bother anyways? Better to stick around and let the Mata created by Artakha be the ones to go into the canisters, since they would be available to do so. Also, if future Nuva became the ones in the canisters, then what would happen to the other Mata? I suppose they wouldn't be destroyed, then, but these other Mata might wake up in the future, having none of the memories of the others... Yeah, it would only end up introducing needless confusion, sorry to say.

 

But no harm in asking. :)


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#9 Offline nocturn701

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Posted Jan 03 2014 - 07:12 AM

 


I have a theory about this. (It's sort of based on Orson Scott Card's Pathfinder series, so if you've read that it will make a bit more sense.)

 

My theory is that there is a future where Krakua did not deliver his message to Vakama. If you'll recall, it was Krakua's message that inspired Vakama to risk destroying the Vahi in that confrontation with Makuta, and it told Vakama that he was going to have to send the Nuva and the Inika on their way, and "wait and hope."

 

This means that there is a future in which Vakama did NOT risk destroying the Vahi, but instead fled Metru Nui with the Vahi in terror or whatever he did. In THAT future, Toa Krakua ended up defending an island fortress somewhere (maybe on Mata Nui?) and realized that he was in trouble, and that all of his current problems and inevitable disaster was caused by that one moment between Vakama and Makuta. So he sent the message to Vakama, in that past. 

 

Now, there is a reality where Vakama received the message. This message is sent from his future, his future that would have been if he had NOT received the message, but now that he has received the message, the future changes so that message is never sent. There is no island fortress and no Krakua defending it because the future has changed so those things don't exist or happen. 

 

Does that make sense?

 

Actually, this makes a heck of a lot of sense. I much prefer when fictional stories have solid reasons for alternate universes being, well, alternate, as opposed to "the character just made a different choice" or something like that.

 

 

Well there are different ideas of time travel. I wonder what Greg would say about what kind of time travel Bionicle allows (you can't have people time travelling but clearly you can have information time travel).

 

1. Is it like a time travel where no matter what you do you will inevitably do exactly what is meant to happen? So maybe if you go back in time to try and kill your grandfather you actually end up becoming your own grandfather, hence you actually participate in your own history in a way that causes no paradox or affects the future such that it is in any way different from the future you came from.

 

2. Is it one that ends up in an alternate timeline? So you go back in time to kill your own grandfather and you succeed. Then you live in a universe where your mother/father or yuo are ever born, and every tiny effect that your would-be family would have had don't happen. So you create/end up in an alternate universe?

 

3. Is it one where if you create a paradox (like killing your own grandfather) the Universe just implodes because you broke logic?

 

I reckon Bionicle would allow 1 or 2, but not 3. I generally prefer having time travel like 1, but given evidence from the Bionicle canon, namely the presence of alternate universes, I have to admit that type 2 is most likely.

 

So, 1 is immutable time, 2 is mutable time, and 3 is an immovable object getting hit with a Double Reverse Falcon Punch?

 

First off, I admit I haven't read that book since I was eight (2 whole years ago) and since I was much smaller that concept may not have made complete sense  to me!

Secondly, I wasn't saying that the canisters traveled through time I was saying that when they were in the canisters time suddenly restarted.

And Thirdly a thanks to everyone who read my theory!


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#10 Offline Ghabulous Ghoti

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Posted Jan 03 2014 - 11:33 AM

First off, I admit I haven't read that book since I was eight (2 whole years ago) and since I was much smaller that concept may not have made complete sense  to me!
 

 

Jeeze, I feel so old knowing that there are people on this site who weren't even alive when BIONICLE started!

 

Anyway, why would time suddenly restart?


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