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Kopeke's Mask


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#1 Offline takua123

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Posted Jan 02 2014 - 12:09 PM

Hey guys, a have an interesting question for you all, and while i'm not too sure if this would be a question involving storyline, or sets, i'm putting it here for now. According to BS01, kopeke's mask was damaged in kohlii practice, resulting in him changing it from his light blue komau to the dark grey matatu. Now we understand why this happened (kohlii) but I've wondered why lego did it. It seemed that this is a rare occurrence, with the only instance I can think of being jaller's mask switch (the purpose of this was to show that jaller wore lhikan's mask) Why, after over 2 years of recognition would lego change kopeke's mask?


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#2 Offline Katuko

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Posted Jan 02 2014 - 12:29 PM

Maybe it was just easier to re-use a dark gray Noble Matatu (which I believe is the same color Whenua wore as a Turaga), or maybe they wanted to separate Kopeke a bit more from Matoro. Apart from the mask, they would pretty much have been identical without different secondary colors. The other Matoran pairs also have separate secondary colors.
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#3 Offline NuvaTube

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Posted Jan 02 2014 - 12:53 PM

Without researching anything I am almost completely sure it has to do with making sets more cheaply. So Katuko's theory seems very viable.

 

EDIT:

 

Maybe it has something to do with releasing Noble and Great masks? Those came in pairs, of Po-Matoran, Ga-Matoran and Ko-Matoran. Each pair has a Great wearing Matoran on offensive (Hewkii, Hahli, Matoro) with a Noble wearing Matoran as Goal-Keeper (Hafu, Macku, Kopeke). And all of them have masks that match those of the primary Kanohi of the Toa of their Element and a random Turaga. So Hahli had Gali's Kaukau, Hewkii had Pohatu's Kakama, Matoro had Kopaka's Akaku. The Goal-Keepers have a Turaga's mask.

 

It's interesting all of the Toa Inikia had the Kanohi of the Mata as Matoran, and they became Toa...hmm....


Edited by NuvaTube, Jan 02 2014 - 12:58 PM.

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#4 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jan 02 2014 - 01:18 PM

Jaller's was not the only other one. Kongu comes to mind as at least one other. I believe Hafu was one, though that was confusing and caused by the Pakari/Ruru mixup in MNOG. I'm sure there were some others.


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#5 Offline takua123

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Posted Jan 02 2014 - 07:26 PM

Ah, I forgot about Kongu, and Hafu was always rather unclear to me.


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#6 Offline Ghabulous Ghoti

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Posted Jan 02 2014 - 10:00 PM


Maybe it has something to do with releasing Noble and Great masks? Those came in pairs, of Po-Matoran, Ga-Matoran and Ko-Matoran. Each pair has a Great wearing Matoran on offensive (Hewkii, Hahli, Matoro) with a Noble wearing Matoran as Goal-Keeper (Hafu, Macku, Kopeke). And all of them have masks that match those of the primary Kanohi of the Toa of their Element and a random Turaga. So Hahli had Gali's Kaukau, Hewkii had Pohatu's Kakama, Matoro had Kopaka's Akaku. The Goal-Keepers have a Turaga's mask.

 

It's interesting all of the Toa Inikia had the Kanohi of the Mata as Matoran, and they became Toa...hmm....

I'm pretty sure Koepeke originally had a noble mask too. Wasn't it a noble Mahiki? I think it's more to do with LEGO being very lazy at times and not wanting to make a new mold for a sand blue Mahiki.


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#7 Offline Toatapio Nuva

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Posted Jan 03 2014 - 07:45 AM

Kopeke had a light blue Komau before and there was already a mask like that before, so I don't know how it would make it any cheaper to make Kopeke the way he was later... though grey is probably cheaper as a color variant.


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#8 Offline Katuko

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Posted Jan 03 2014 - 08:19 AM

Kopeke wore a noble Komau up until the rebuilding, where he got his Matatu. Kind of funny that they explained the change to a gray Matatu as a result of the blue Komau being broken, but they don't mention his feet also changing color to be gray. So did he paint his mask or his feet to match? :P
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#9 Offline Ghabulous Ghoti

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Posted Jan 03 2014 - 11:35 AM

Kopeke had a light blue Komau before and there was already a mask like that before, so I don't know how it would make it any cheaper to make Kopeke the way he was later... though grey is probably cheaper as a color variant.

Ah, it was a Komau, not a Mahiki. Sorry 'bout that.

 

No, we didn't ge ta Komau in that color. Kopeke/Matoro blue was different than Nokama blue. I believe LEGO refers to the Ko-Matoran blue as "sand blue", while the one from Nokama was "medium blue" if I remember correctly. And yes, I'm getting those names from the old Collector's Sticker Book.


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#10 Offline TNT-Vezon with an Olmak

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Posted Jan 04 2014 - 06:22 PM

Kopeke wore a noble Komau up until the rebuilding, where he got his Matatu. Kind of funny that they explained the change to a gray Matatu as a result of the blue Komau being broken, but they don't mention his feet also changing color to be gray. So did he paint his mask or his feet to match? :P

Well, I don't think they explained why Takua's feet changed either. I think it was just what parts they had available from Bohrok as far as that goes. Does anyone else think it's a little gross that they were kind of using pieces of other Matoran to rebuild themselves since the Bohrok were Matoran at one time?


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#11 Online Gatanui

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Posted Jan 04 2014 - 07:05 PM

I wouldn't be surprised if they simply designed a Ko-Matoran looking like that and decided afterwards to simply call him Kopeke so they wouldn't need to come up with a new name.

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#12 Offline Katuko

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Posted Jan 04 2014 - 07:14 PM

Does anyone else think it's a little gross that they were kind of using pieces of other Matoran to rebuild themselves since the Bohrok were Matoran at one time?

No, actually. The Bohrok were pure machines, and I am fairly certain they had no muscle or other organic parts at all apart from the Krana. The Matoran rebuilding themselves with Bohrok pieces is pretty much the same as looting armor, not body parts. Maybe it would be a bit iffy if they took metal parts from Rahi or actual dead Matoran, but when the thing is already 100% machine there is little reason to care.

For the same reason, I consider the Boxor just a machine built from the pieces of another machine; not a walking corpse monstrosity.

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#13 Offline Aanchir: Rachira of Time

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Posted Jan 04 2014 - 09:28 PM

Kongu's mask changing was just a matter of the CGI models being used in Legends of Metru Nui, since in that movie he's a recolored Hafu from head to toe. It saved the animators from creating an entirely new CGI model (a Matoran Miru) for an incidental character whose identity is irrelevant to the film and to the 2004 story as a whole.

Kopeke's mask might have changed because of focus group testing, or because the set designers thought the Matatu looked better on him. Another possibility is that it might have been a decision of the movie makers — after all, the reason he and Matoro appear in the sets from 2003 at all is that originally Ko-Koro was going to have more of a role in the movie.

Another possibility is that the designers might have wanted to change his COLOR, since no other two-Matoran pairs had identical mask, foot, or hand colors. This would also explain the change in Takua's foot color — they didn't want his feet to match Jaller's. Dark Grey would require the fewest new elements because the mask packs already introduced Dark Grey Noble Kanohi and Nuparu already introduced Dark Grey Matoran feet in the 2002 Boxor set. Perhaps they figured that a different color was worth a different mask as well.

Ghabulous Ghoti, you are absolutely correct with the colors Sand Blue and Medium Blue! I am always pleased when people can get official color names correct on the first try. BIONICLE was what got me started learning the official LEGO color names, and although it didn't ALWAYS use the official names consistently, it was a valuable teaching tool especially for obscure metallic colors (which I verified via the old Kraata Guide).

Edited by Aanchir: Rachira of Time, Jan 04 2014 - 09:42 PM.

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#14 Offline Ghabulous Ghoti

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Posted Jan 04 2014 - 10:04 PM

Kopeke's mask might have changed because of focus group testing, or because the set designers thought the Matatu looked better on him. Another possibility is that it might have been a decision of the movie makers — after all, the reason he and Matoro appear in the sets from 2003 at all is that originally Ko-Koro was going to have more of a role in the movie.

 

[...]

Ghabulous Ghoti, you are absolutely correct with the colors Sand Blue and Medium Blue! I am always pleased when people can get official color names correct on the first try. BIONICLE was what got me started learning the official LEGO color names, and although it didn't ALWAYS use the official names consistently, it was a valuable teaching tool especially for obscure metallic colors (which I verified via the old Kraata Guide).

What kind of role was Ko-Koro originally going to have? Do we have any details at all?

 

And I STILL have trouble with all the Kraata because half of the colors are used nowhere else to my knowledge! Is it at all sad that I still remembered these specific color names?


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#15 Offline Aanchir: Rachira of Time

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Posted Jan 06 2014 - 12:51 PM

Kopeke's mask might have changed because of focus group testing, or because the set designers thought the Matatu looked better on him. Another possibility is that it might have been a decision of the movie makers — after all, the reason he and Matoro appear in the sets from 2003 at all is that originally Ko-Koro was going to have more of a role in the movie.
 
[...]

Ghabulous Ghoti, you are absolutely correct with the colors Sand Blue and Medium Blue! I am always pleased when people can get official color names correct on the first try. BIONICLE was what got me started learning the official LEGO color names, and although it didn't ALWAYS use the official names consistently, it was a valuable teaching tool especially for obscure metallic colors (which I verified via the old Kraata Guide).

What kind of role was Ko-Koro originally going to have? Do we have any details at all?
 
And I STILL have trouble with all the Kraata because half of the colors are used nowhere else to my knowledge! Is it at all sad that I still remembered these specific color names?

Most of the Kraata colors were actually used elsewhere, but certainly not frequently. The most obscure they got were the metallic colors, and of those, the most obscure were Metallic Light Grey (Bricklink's Pearl Very Light Gray, which was used for Kohrak-Kal's Krana-Kal and some Belville parts) and Lemon Metallic (one of two colors Bricklink calls Metallic Green, which was not really used for anything but Kraata and Krana-Kal).

Sand Blue Metallic (one of two colors Bricklink calls Metal Blue) and Reddish Gold (one of four or five colors Bricklink calls Copper and one of two colors they call Pearl Gold) were both widely used in Knights' Kingdom II, particularly that theme's constraction sets. Sand Yellow Metallic (Bricklink's Flat Dark Gold) was widely used in Knights' Kingdom II and BIONICLE — it was the main gold/bronze color used in BIONICLE prior to 2006. And of course Dark Grey Metallic (one of two or three colors Bricklink calls Pearl Dark Gray) was the "gunmetal" color used in all pre-2010 sets.

I don't know how extensive Ko-Koro's role was going to be, but it's easy to see where it would have fit into the story, since Ko-Koro is the one place that is seen but never visited during Takua and Jaller's adventure. Perhaps the Rahkshi attack was originally supposed to happen after they arrived there rather than before. After all, one apparent plot hole in the movie is the reason the Rahkshi attack Ko-Koro. Some of the scenes seem to suggest that the Rahkshi attacks are not random but specifically places Takua has visited along his journey — hence why they attack Onu-Koro when even Jaller points out that "the mask was never in Onu-Koro".

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#16 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jan 06 2014 - 01:00 PM

After all, one apparent plot hole in the movie is the reason the Rahkshi attack Ko-Koro. Some of the scenes seem to suggest that the Rahkshi attacks are not random but specifically places Takua has visited along his journey — hence why they attack Onu-Koro when even Jaller points out that "the mask was never in Onu-Koro".

Never noticed that. Could be.

 

On the other hand, it can make sense that they'd want to hit where he's going just as he arrives too; either being late or early would be the main mistake. Maybe instead of being late they just changed it to being too early. (Of course, then there's attacking on time but getting defeated by Toa lol as in Onu-Koro).


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#17 Offline Katuko

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Posted Jan 06 2014 - 01:37 PM

Yeah, the Rahkshi were told to find the Mask of Light, and the mask was known to be in the possession of the Chronicler. It's said that the Rahkshi act on Makuta's orders, and while he knew Takua wasn't carrying the mask when he talked to him in the tunnels, he might have sent them there just because the mask was in the region. Visiting Onu-Koro to look for the Toa of Light - or just inform the inhabitants that they should be on the lookout for him - would be a logical thing to do.

In fact, I'd say that the plot hole isn't why the Rahkshi attack Ko-Koro (the Herald was headed that way, and the Rahkshi did essentially spring an ambush the moment he approached). The plot hole is that Takua and Jaller are tasked with searching for a Toa of Light - but they completely skip on even visiting Le-Koro, Ko-Koro and Po-Koro. I know they were said to follow the light from the mask (to an extent), but it should have been shining perpetually as long as Takua was holding it anyways; making it useless as a "pointer".

In any case, I agree that Ko-Koro was likely meant to play a larger role in an earlier draft of the script. Scenes were cut from Legends of Metru Nui too, such as one with a Lohrak flying around. LEGO wanted 6 small sets, consisting of 3 pairs of Matoran, and if it wasn't for Takua and Jaller being included in larger sets I believe they would have been chosen for the small sets instead of the Ko-Matoran. I remember wishing for Le-Matoran sets, but Kongu's color scheme would likely have complicated things. LEGO barely used that color anywhere else after 2001, so I guess brining it back just for a few select parts might have felt like overdoing things.

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#18 Offline Aanchir: Rachira of Time

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Posted Jan 06 2014 - 01:56 PM

After all, one apparent plot hole in the movie is the reason the Rahkshi attack Ko-Koro. Some of the scenes seem to suggest that the Rahkshi attacks are not random but specifically places Takua has visited along his journey — hence why they attack Onu-Koro when even Jaller points out that "the mask was never in Onu-Koro".

Never noticed that. Could be.
 
On the other hand, it can make sense that they'd want to hit where he's going just as he arrives too; either being late or early would be the main mistake. Maybe instead of being late they just changed it to being too early. (Of course, then there's attacking on time but getting defeated by Toa lol as in Onu-Koro).

I never noticed it myself until I was typing this post!

When I said the Rahkshi might have been intended to arrive after Takua and Jaller, what I was trying to suggest is that they might have been intended to arrive after Takua and Jaller first showed up, but still before they left. In that case it wouldn't have been "late", it would have been right on time — and would have been quite good timing at that, since there would have only been one Toa present to defend Ko-Koro (whereas there were at least two Toa present when the Rahkshi attacked Ta-Koro and Onu-Koro).

The other question that of course remains is "why was the scene cut"? But it's entirely possible that it was just cut for reasons of time or pacing — the creators might not have wanted to interrupt Takua and Jaller's quest with another "pit stop" in a Matoran village, particularly if it was a "pit stop" long enough to introduce two new characters, Matoro and Kopeke, who would not play any critical role in the film's climax. One common thread you see in a lot of LEGO animated features is an attempt to keep the cast of characters fairly small and easy to remember, hence why there are never more than six named heroes in any Hero Factory TV special, and why only the Skulkin, Serpentine, and Stone Army generals from LEGO Ninjago are treated as unique characters, and most of the others are treated as generic enemy goons.

Mask of Light was already more ambitious than most of the BIONICLE movies in that regard. The six Rahkshi were treated as unique individuals with unique powers, rather than as generic foes like the Vahki and Visorak. There were ten major recurring protagonists (Vakama, Takua, Jaller, Hahli, and the six Toa), plus eight other named protagonists with unique designs (Hewkii, Hafu, Macku, and the five other Turaga, though depending on your perspective, Turaga Nokama might belong in the first list). It's easy to see how adding Matoro and Kopeke to either list might have been seen as adding needless confusion. The cast of characters in the other three movies seems quite small in comparison.

@Katuko: BIONICLE: Mask of Light had a major theme of subverted expectations. Jaller and Takua were in a dispute over who was the actual herald, and although the Toa and Turaga named Jaller as the herald, evidence pointed to Takua. But as Hahli points out in the end, Jaller was Takanuva's herald. The mask responded to Takua not because he was the destined herald, but rather because he was the destined Toa of Light. Jaller was the one who came to that realization and revealed it to Takua. If Takua had taken the journey with the mask alone, not only would he be Rahkshi-bones, but he would have wandered aimlessly forever without anyone to help him discover that his true destination was not a place outside, on the island of Mata Nui, but inside his heart.

With that in mind, the notion that the mask would lead Takua and Jaller to the Toa of Light was also true. After all, there was no reason the journey to Kini-Nui had to be so roundabout. In fact, there was no reason that the Toa had to be found in Kini-Nui at all — Takua could have put on the mask at any time. But at the same time, the Turaga's belief DID turn out to be true. Even if Takua and Jaller's journey with the mask was completely random, the Toa of Light would never have been found if they hadn't gone on that journey together, because it was only that journey that taught them enough about themselves for Jaller to realize Takua's true destiny and for Takua to accept that destiny.

As for the Rahkshi's attack sites, it was clear that their target was Takua. After all, neither Makuta nor the Rahkshi were blind to the mask's presence, and they should have been fully capable of detecting it. Yet when Takua and Jaller split up, the Rahkshi went after not the mask or Jaller (both of which, without Pewku to carry them, would have been easy, slow-moving targets) but Takua. I do not think this was a random strike, but a calculated decision on Makuta's part.

Takua's excuse for why the Rahkshi attacked Onu-Koro was that "The Rahkshi don't want the mask. They're looking for the herald." But in Ko-Koro, when Takua had taken the mask from Jaller and tried to paddle across the freezing lake, the Rahkshi went right past Jaller and headed for Takua and the mask. This is also consistent with how Makuta singled out Takua as a very direct target for his temptations and deceptions. Whether he believed Takua was the herald or suspected Takua's even greater importance, he recognized that Takua was more important than Jaller to the quest's eventual success.

Edited by Aanchir: Rachira of Time, Jan 06 2014 - 02:33 PM.

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#19 Offline Kopekemaster

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Posted Jan 06 2014 - 03:07 PM

*hup hup *cough** Getting back on topic...

 

I've always wondered why Kopeke's mask changed between MNOG and MNOG II. Interesting. Maybe LEGO was just doing it to mix things up a bit?


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#20 Offline Ghabulous Ghoti

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Posted Jan 06 2014 - 03:32 PM

 

Mask of Light was already more ambitious than most of the BIONICLE movies in that regard. The six Rahkshi were treated as unique individuals with unique powers, rather than as generic foes like the Vahki and Visorak. There were ten major recurring protagonists (Vakama, Takua, Jaller, Hahli, and the six Toa), plus eight other named protagonists with unique designs (Hewkii, Hafu, Macku, and the five other Turaga, though depending on your perspective, Turaga Nokama might belong in the first list). It's easy to see how adding Matoro and Kopeke to either list might have been seen as adding needless confusion. The cast of characters in the other three movies seems quite small in comparison.

The Rahkshi weren't that un-generic. Each one, sub the blue and brown ones, used their own power once, and other than that, all they did was hiss and scream and somehow make Ta-Koro sink in lava for no reason.

BUT... to be on topic, didn't Kapura and Tamaru change masks too? Or at least, I think Tamaru changed the color of his mask.


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#21 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jan 06 2014 - 04:28 PM

With that in mind, the notion that the mask would lead Takua and Jaller to the Toa of Light was also true. After all, there was no reason the journey to Kini-Nui had to be so roundabout. In fact, there was no reason that the Toa had to be found in Kini-Nui at all — Takua could have put on the mask at any time. But at the same time, the Turaga's belief DID turn out to be true. Even if Takua and Jaller's journey with the mask was completely random, the Toa of Light would never have been found if they hadn't gone on that journey together, because it was only that journey that taught them enough about themselves for Jaller to realize Takua's true destiny and for Takua to accept that destiny.


As for the Rahkshi's attack sites, it was clear that their target was Takua. After all, neither Makuta nor the Rahkshi were blind to the mask's presence, and they should have been fully capable of detecting it. Yet when Takua and Jaller split up, the Rahkshi went after not the mask or Jaller (both of which, without Pewku to carry them, would have been easy, slow-moving targets) but Takua. I do not think this was a random strike, but a calculated decision on Makuta's part.

Takua's excuse for why the Rahkshi attacked Onu-Koro was that "The Rahkshi don't want the mask. They're looking for the herald." But in Ko-Koro, when Takua had taken the mask from Jaller and tried to paddle across the freezing lake, the Rahkshi went right past Jaller and headed for Takua and the mask. This is also consistent with how Makuta singled out Takua as a very direct target for his temptations and deceptions. Whether he believed Takua was the herald or suspected Takua's even greater importance, he recognized that Takua was more important than Jaller to the quest's eventual success.

 

I think that Makuta might have made a calculated guess, due to Takua's eccentric qualities, that he was an Av-Matoran. If Jaller got killed/maimed/decieved, he could be replaced, but not Takua, since he was the actual Toa. 

 

The Rahkshi weren't that un-generic. Each one, sub the blue and brown ones, used their own power once, and other than that, all they did was hiss and scream and somehow make Ta-Koro sink in lava for no reason.

BUT... to be on topic, didn't Kapura and Tamaru change masks too? Or at least, I think Tamaru changed the color of his mask

I think the disintegration and Fragmentation Rahkshi could poke a big hole in and destroy the foundation of the village without trouble. 

 

At any rate, back on topic, maybe Kopeke wanted to look different one day and switched masks? He spent a lot of time looking at himself in the mirror. 


Edited by fishers64, Jan 06 2014 - 04:30 PM.

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#22 Offline Takhamavahu

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Posted Jan 06 2014 - 06:55 PM

Probably the set designers just thought it looked better.  There didn't have to be logic to it, they were making a toy. It just had to look cool.

Then the story was written around that.

 

For Kongu, the movie reused the same four or five CGI models for every background matoran. When they wanted to give that green guy with one line a name for the credits, they just picked out the name of the first le-matoran they could think of. The writers weren't big Bionicle fans or story team members, so they didn't think twice about whether he should have the right mask or not. Then Greg and the story team wrote around it that Kongu changed his mask at some point.


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#23 Offline Katuko

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Posted Jan 06 2014 - 06:57 PM

If Takua had taken the journey with the mask alone, not only would he be Rahkshi-bones, but he would have wandered aimlessly forever without anyone to help him discover that his true destination was not a place outside, on the island of Mata Nui, but inside his heart.

Given that Takua plays around with making bunny-ears out of glowing weed while he's alone in the dark, I'd find it perfectly in character for him to put the mask on his face and pretend to be a Toa - if he was left alone with it for long enough. No journey and no herald needed. :P
 

BUT... to be on topic, didn't Kapura and Tamaru change masks too? Or at least, I think Tamaru changed the color of his mask.

Kapura has been shown with a red Noble Ruru, but both his MNOG form and the Metruan form shown on Vakama's promo CD wears a Pakari. I'm not certain, but I think his mask was changed for the same reason as Hafu and Taipu: Templar did a few mix-ups between Pakari and Ruru when they were making the MNOG. Taipu's "set image" always wore a Pakari, and they made a quip about it in the second online game; where he expresses frustration at being mistaken for Hafu all the time. In this case they chose to just ret-con the Pakari as being an accident, and used the joke to comment on it. Kopeke, on the other hand, has the official explanation of damaging his mask during Kolhii practice, and as far as I remember Kopeke never says anything to the contrary in the game.

Tamaru has used several different colors. In the "McToran" CGI image, he has a lime/yellow-green color. In the MNOG, his shade of green is much lighter, but it looks close to the same color used for Lewa's limbs in the same game. Kongu also appears with the same intense-yet-slighty-desaturated green, so we can assume that he is meant to use the same color that we're used to from Lewa, Turaga Matau and Lehvak. Tamaru's "teal" color matches Kongu's mask in the game, with both being almost light blue more than they are teal. In MNOG2, we can see that the color has been adjusted to look more like the proper teal from Kongu's McToran set form. In this game they are both properly yellow-green, too.

Tamaru's green color does not look like teal on his mock-up McToran CGI, it looks rather more like Lewa's green than anything else. The most accurate coloring for both Kongu and Tamaru comes from MNOG2, where their colors look like the set counterparts would have, and Tamaru is an "inverted" Kongu like he was in the first MNOG. Tamaru is thus not supposed to have switched colors, even though the palette choices may have made it look that way between MNOG and MNOG2. His mask has never changed.


A few other Matoran who appear to have changed masks :
- Kivi: Brown Noble Komau on Metru Nui, brown Kaukau on Mata Nui.
- Tehutti: Black Noble Huna on Metru Nui, black Kakama on Mata Nui.
- Nuhrii: Red Noble Ruru on Metru Nui, black Kaukau on Mata Nui.
- Ahkmou's Noble Rau changes from brown on Metru Nui to black on Mata Nui.

They re-used a Rau-wearing Po-Matoran as the traitor as a nice tie-in with the MNOG plot, but the others don't really have much connection between the settings. Tehutti and Nuhrii did nothing important in MNOG2, and the rest of the Great Disk Matoran didn't appear until 2004 at all. Tehutti had a story role, so I find it interesting that if they wanted a Huna-wearing Onu-Matoran that they didn't either grab the name off Kaj; or just used another new one for him. They may suddenly have started running low in the middle of making the 2004 Matoran, though, or maybe they just forgot who was who while naming them. As unimportant as the MNOG2 Matoran were, it's understandable.

Some Matoran seem to have had their masks kept consistent, though. The Ko-Matoran Talvi and Jaa, for example, as well as the Onu-Matoran Damek, look the same on the promo CDs as they do in MNOG2. Damek even uses purple for his mask and feet!

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#24 Offline Aanchir: Rachira of Time

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Posted Jan 06 2014 - 08:31 PM

If Takua had taken the journey with the mask alone, not only would he be Rahkshi-bones, but he would have wandered aimlessly forever without anyone to help him discover that his true destination was not a place outside, on the island of Mata Nui, but inside his heart.

Given that Takua plays around with making bunny-ears out of glowing weed while he's alone in the dark, I'd find it perfectly in character for him to put the mask on his face and pretend to be a Toa - if he was left alone with it for long enough. No journey and no herald needed. :P


I don't know. Maybe immediately after he found it, he might have done so. After it was seen by the Turaga and its purpose was revealed, though, I think Takua was somewhat scared of it and the heavy responsibility attached to it. He certainly didn't want to be the one carrying it on the quest if it could be avoided.

I don't think Takua was fond of being told what to do by anyone, even ancient prophecies. He had played important roles in the past, but a lot of that came from following his own impulses and making choices to help out wherever an adventurer was needed — not from mandates handed down by other entities. He preferred to be the one watching and observing history being made — not the one making it. And only in moments of crisis did his deeply buried heroic impulse, the thing that would one day make him a Toa, rise to the surface.

Thus it's understandable why being the Herald of the Seventh Toa frightened him. It was a big title and a big responsibility. Some would say being the Chronicler is a big title and a big responsibility. But it's not the same, really. Chronicler is just a title that nobody without a lot of courage and wanderlust really wanted to try and earn. Takua, outcast like he was, could take on this title without having to make any big changes in his free-spirited lifestyle. And unlike Herald of the Seventh Toa, it was certainly not a title or responsibility big enough for dangerous entities like Makuta to fear or try to control him.
 

A few other Matoran who appear to have changed masks :
- Kivi: Brown Noble Komau on Metru Nui, brown Kaukau on Mata Nui.
- Tehutti: Black Noble Huna on Metru Nui, black Kakama on Mata Nui.
- Nuhrii: Red Noble Ruru on Metru Nui, black Kaukau on Mata Nui.
- Ahkmou's Noble Rau changes from brown on Metru Nui to black on Mata Nui.

They re-used a Rau-wearing Po-Matoran as the traitor as a nice tie-in with the MNOG plot, but the others don't really have much connection between the settings. Tehutti and Nuhrii did nothing important in MNOG2, and the rest of the Great Disk Matoran didn't appear until 2004 at all. Tehutti had a story role, so I find it interesting that if they wanted a Huna-wearing Onu-Matoran that they didn't either grab the name off Kaj; or just used another new one for him. They may suddenly have started running low in the middle of making the 2004 Matoran, though, or maybe they just forgot who was who while naming them. As unimportant as the MNOG2 Matoran were, it's understandable.


Another possibility, for Matoran whose masks changed between Mata Nui and Metru Nui, is that the names for Metru Nui Matoran were chosen and/or changed for legal reasons. This is presumably why the Le-Matoran went from alternately being called Orkam or Orkan (Danish for "hurricane" or "whirlwind") in MNOGII to Orkahm in the sets, and why the Ta-Matoran went from the simple Nuri (Hebrew for "fire") in MNOGII to the more complex Nuhrii. The Onu-Matoran name changed from Tehuti (an alternate spelling of the Egyptian god Thoth, judge of the earth, sea, and sky) to Tehutti.

The names Vhisola and Ehrye were drawn from whole cloth — no Matoran with that name or any similar name had appeared in any prior media. So perhaps none of the minor MNOGII Ga-Matoran or Ko-Matoran names could be cleared with the legal and marketing departments with any spelling — those that could have their spelling changed to clear legal might have been too similar to already established characters who the marketing people didn't want kids to confuse. Ahkmou must have been an incredible stroke of luck — a name with story relevance and a matching mask that did not need to be changed at all to satisfy the legal department.

Some Matoran seem to have had their masks kept consistent, though. The Ko-Matoran Talvi and Jaa, for example, as well as the Onu-Matoran Damek, look the same on the promo CDs as they do in MNOG2. Damek even uses purple for his mask and feet!

Edited by Aanchir: Rachira of Time, Jan 06 2014 - 08:33 PM.

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#25 Offline skratchR

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Posted Jan 24 2014 - 02:09 PM

Probably the set designers just thought it looked better.  There didn't have to be logic to it, they were making a toy. It just had to look cool.

Then the story was written around that.

 

For Kongu, the movie reused the same four or five CGI models for every background matoran. When they wanted to give that green guy with one line a name for the credits, they just picked out the name of the first le-matoran they could think of. The writers weren't big Bionicle fans or story team members, so they didn't think twice about whether he should have the right mask or not. Then Greg and the story team wrote around it that Kongu changed his mask at some point.

WARNING: STUPID THEORY AHEAD!

 

Erm... We have two future right-hands of the future mata nui turaga (kongu and Jaller) changing their masks to the same ones their respective toa mata wears (among 11 options). Can this mean something exceedingly matoran-esque about destiny and things? Can the rest of the future toa inika have changed their masks too? 


 

If Takua had taken the journey with the mask alone, not only would he be Rahkshi-bones, but he would have wandered aimlessly forever without anyone to help him discover that his true destination was not a place outside, on the island of Mata Nui, but inside his heart.

Given that Takua plays around with making bunny-ears out of glowing weed while he's alone in the dark, I'd find it perfectly in character for him to put the mask on his face and pretend to be a Toa - if he was left alone with it for long enough. No journey and no herald needed. :P

 

Loading... WHAT!? There are NO rabbits in the matoran universe. HOW CAN HE BE IMITATING AN ANIMAL HE HAS NEVER SEEN!? God, I would love to speak to the guys who made the movies.


And, last of all, WHERE do they get their new masks from? I mean, masks are made in Metru Nui by Ta-matoran maskmakers with kanoka disks. In mata-nui, they don't have mask makers (not seen in ta-koro), no mask forges (they are not the type of places one can miss, and not craftable from airship pieces into ta-koro), no kanoka disks (no sea of liquid protodermis), and no knowledge about it.

 

I know vakama could have crafted some, but his mask-making tool turned into his badge of office when he turned turaga.


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#26 Offline Katuko

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Posted Jan 24 2014 - 02:33 PM

Loading... WHAT!? There are NO rabbits in the matoran universe. HOW CAN HE BE IMITATING AN ANIMAL HE HAS NEVER SEEN!? God, I would love to speak to the guys who made the movies.

They have birds and bears and lots of other things, so they could easily have a rabbit-like creature as well. Takua never actually says that he's a rabbit, he just picks the weed up and chuckles a bit to himself.
 
 

And, last of all, WHERE do they get their new masks from? I mean, masks are made in Metru Nui by Ta-matoran maskmakers with kanoka disks. In mata-nui, they don't have mask makers (not seen in ta-koro), no mask forges (they are not the type of places one can miss, and not craftable from airship pieces into ta-koro), no kanoka disks (no sea of liquid protodermis), and no knowledge about it.
 
I know vakama could have crafted some, but his mask-making tool turned into his badge of office when he turned turaga.


If they brought a load of powered Kanohi for the Toa Mata to use (12 masks x 6 Toa = 72 in all), they could easily manage to bring a small shipment of spare Matoran Kanohi as well. I'm more surprised that they had enough pods to store Kraata in over the years, because that cave in Po-Wahi seemed quite big.

The tool Vakama uses as a mask-maker in Legends of Metru Nui looks a lot like his Firestaff does in Mask of Light, by the way. He could probably manage to do a few simple crafts.

Edited by Katuko, Jan 24 2014 - 02:34 PM.

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#27 Offline skratchR

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Posted Jan 24 2014 - 02:55 PM

 

Loading... WHAT!? There are NO rabbits in the matoran universe. HOW CAN HE BE IMITATING AN ANIMAL HE HAS NEVER SEEN!? God, I would love to speak to the guys who made the movies.

They have birds and bears and lots of other things, so they could easily have a rabbit-like creature as well. Takua never actually says that he's a rabbit, he just picks the weed up and chuckles a bit to himself.
 
 

And, last of all, WHERE do they get their new masks from? I mean, masks are made in Metru Nui by Ta-matoran maskmakers with kanoka disks. In mata-nui, they don't have mask makers (not seen in ta-koro), no mask forges (they are not the type of places one can miss, and not craftable from airship pieces into ta-koro), no kanoka disks (no sea of liquid protodermis), and no knowledge about it.
 
I know vakama could have crafted some, but his mask-making tool turned into his badge of office when he turned turaga.


If they brought a load of powered Kanohi for the Toa Mata to use (12 masks x 6 Toa = 72 in all), they could easily manage to bring a small shipment of spare Matoran Kanohi as well. I'm more surprised that they had enough pods to store Kraata in over the years, because that cave in Po-Wahi seemed quite big.

The tool Vakama uses as a mask-maker in Legends of Metru Nui looks a lot like his Firestaff does in Mask of Light, by the way. He could probably manage to do a few simple crafts.

 

Looks they left in a bit of a hurry, don't know if they could carry replacements for all the kanohi that can be damaged during a 1000-year war, plus the journey to matanui.


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#28 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jan 25 2014 - 12:21 AM

Looks they left in a bit of a hurry, don't know if they could carry replacements for all the kanohi that can be damaged during a 1000-year war, plus the journey to matanui.

 

 

Yes, but when they came back to Metru Nui in 2005 story they could have picked up a few more. They had an entire fleet of airships. If they had time to build those, picking up a few Kanohi on the way out would be easy. 


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#29 Offline skratchR

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Posted Jan 25 2014 - 07:01 AM

 

Looks they left in a bit of a hurry, don't know if they could carry replacements for all the kanohi that can be damaged during a 1000-year war, plus the journey to matanui.

 

 

Yes, but when they came back to Metru Nui in 2005 story they could have picked up a few more. They had an entire fleet of airships. If they had time to build those, picking up a few Kanohi on the way out would be easy. 

 

 

Well, the place was supposed to be wrecked up. If the whole city was destroyed (being made of really resistant materials), why would the masks survive? They were supposed to be more fragile (a trip in a matoran sphere is enough to berak them). And if they did, wouldn't the visorak or other group loot them?

 

Just think of the visorak coming across a bundle of kanohi masks:

 

Visorak 1: 'Hey, we should take these; they are really useful to our enemies'

Visorak 2: 'Nah, let them have the masks, it will be more fun to defeat them when they are at full strength'.

 

I suppose Roodaka executed two more poor visorak for that.


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#30 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jan 25 2014 - 12:31 PM

 

 

Looks they left in a bit of a hurry, don't know if they could carry replacements for all the kanohi that can be damaged during a 1000-year war, plus the journey to matanui.

 

 

Yes, but when they came back to Metru Nui in 2005 story they could have picked up a few more. They had an entire fleet of airships. If they had time to build those, picking up a few Kanohi on the way out would be easy. 

 

 

Well, the place was supposed to be wrecked up. If the whole city was destroyed (being made of really resistant materials), why would the masks survive? They were supposed to be more fragile (a trip in a matoran sphere is enough to berak them). And if they did, wouldn't the visorak or other group loot them?

 

Just think of the visorak coming across a bundle of kanohi masks:

 

Visorak 1: 'Hey, we should take these; they are really useful to our enemies'

Visorak 2: 'Nah, let them have the masks, it will be more fun to defeat them when they are at full strength'.

 

I suppose Roodaka executed two more poor visorak for that.

 

But the Toa Metru defeated the Visorak. After the horde scattered, I'm pretty sure they left the masks behind. Why would the Visorak or Roodaka take them out of the city?


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#31 Offline skratchR

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Posted Jan 26 2014 - 12:00 PM

 

 

 

Looks they left in a bit of a hurry, don't know if they could carry replacements for all the kanohi that can be damaged during a 1000-year war, plus the journey to matanui.

 

 

Yes, but when they came back to Metru Nui in 2005 story they could have picked up a few more. They had an entire fleet of airships. If they had time to build those, picking up a few Kanohi on the way out would be easy. 

 

 

Well, the place was supposed to be wrecked up. If the whole city was destroyed (being made of really resistant materials), why would the masks survive? They were supposed to be more fragile (a trip in a matoran sphere is enough to berak them). And if they did, wouldn't the visorak or other group loot them?

 

Just think of the visorak coming across a bundle of kanohi masks:

 

Visorak 1: 'Hey, we should take these; they are really useful to our enemies'

Visorak 2: 'Nah, let them have the masks, it will be more fun to defeat them when they are at full strength'.

 

I suppose Roodaka executed two more poor visorak for that.

 

But the Toa Metru defeated the Visorak. After the horde scattered, I'm pretty sure they left the masks behind. Why would the Visorak or Roodaka take them out of the city?

 

 

To use them for the future war that teridax was planning to get revenge on the toa that imprisoned him. The infected masks would come rom somewhere.


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#32 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jan 26 2014 - 05:00 PM

To use them for the future war that teridax was planning to get revenge on the toa that imprisoned him. The infected masks would come rom somewhere.

 

Teridax teleported Roodaka away after he was freed, and Vakama freed the rest of the horde. Roodaka didn't come back to the city before the Toa left. I think the Toa would have had time to grab all the spare masks they wanted/needed. 

 

We don't know where all of the infected masks came from, but it's possible that the Metru didn't take all of the masks out.

 

Also Makuta Teridax, at the beginning of LoMN, was trying to hire Vakama to make him a Mask of Time. This might have been a habit; I wouldn't put it past the Brotherhood to force Ta-Matoran to do their bidding, and Teridax himself might have had several mask-makers in his employ.


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#33 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jan 26 2014 - 06:49 PM

It's my understanding that the Rahi were made already with masks on various parts of their bodies. Remember they were made by Makuta. Likely the masks give them a slight increase in mental strength, similar to but lesser than Toa. The Makuta would be aware that they could later infect masks if they needed to, to gain direct control over a Rahi.


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#34 Offline skratchR

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Posted Jan 27 2014 - 11:39 AM

It's my understanding that the Rahi were made already with masks on various parts of their bodies. Remember they were made by Makuta. Likely the masks give them a slight increase in mental strength, similar to but lesser than Toa. The Makuta would be aware that they could later infect masks if they needed to, to gain direct control over a Rahi.

 

But rahi would get their kanohi broken also, and teridax would need a constant flow of masks coming in to infect them and give them to his rahi. And he had no access to any ta-matoran mask makers when he was in mangaia.

Remember when the whole strength of Takutanuva was needed to lift the door to Meru nui and the rest of the universe (and ta-matoran). I still think that he somehow looted the whole city, or maybe other groups who came before the visorak and who served him. The voyage to metru nui fram mata nui is rather long (you have to cross half a head), and people could have gotten into Metru nui before the toa Metru or the Visorak. Skakdi, for example.

I don't suppose that the visorak were at the doors of Metru nui when the toa metru left, and then quickly rushed in and conquered the place. They took some time to arrive.

Anyway, Metru nui is full of hiding places. It could have been looted before the toa came looking for masks, and the toa could still get some. The arcives, for example, are huge.


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#35 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jan 27 2014 - 01:20 PM

But rahi would get their kanohi broken also, and teridax would need a constant flow of masks coming in to infect them and give them to his rahi.

The story is confusing on this -- the Hapka book clearly indicates the Matoran did not discover the purpose of the infected masks until the Toa Mata arrived. So for a thousand years, the masks would not break other than in accidents. That would leave plenty to still form dangerous armies when the Toa arrived. I tend to think this detail in Hapka's book has to be non-canon. The Matoran weren't stupid, and they had their throwing disks for a thousand years so surely they would have knocked some off and then observed the effects.

 

However, the argument still assumes the masks break versus just being knocked off (so another infected Rahi like a Nui-Rama can pick it up), and in any case ignores that Makuta can use still-infected ones to deliver new masks to replace lost ones and recapture freed Rahi. Infected Rahi were capable of stealing Lewa's mask, leaving it uninfected, and putting an infected one on his face, so this principle is clearly confirmed. And for most Rahi it would be much easier than conquering a Toa.

 

The only important question then is whether enough were breaking that Teridax would need an influx of new masks.

 

If so, he could teleport to the other side of the heavy door, and by some means or another (flight with his wings, which he probably kept until just before the 01 Mata battle, or teleporting in jumps, depending on the range of that power) travel himself to Metru Nui, where there should still be hundreds of remaining masks for him to bring. Evidence seems to be against this, though, since he wanted to stay by that door to act as constant guardian, and did not usually do things personally, preferring to leave them to minions. Of course, he could have perhaps teleported some infected Nui-Rama or Nui-Kopen through and had them get replacements.

 

Likely the forging of new masks would not be necessary. Depending on how many the Toa Metru collected from the Great Temple's supply when they loaded the airships.

 

And he had no access to any ta-matoran mask makers when he was in mangaia.

Well, it appears he chose not to do anything like that, but the Brotherhood had slaves, and he wasn't necessarily completely "off the grid" -- he was still the Brotherhood's ruler, so he probably contacted them by some means or another occasionally. If he needed masks made they could have brought slaves in, etc. to work the Ta forges. Or got masks from forges elsewhere in the universe. Remember there are mask powers that were forged elsewhere, common elsewhere, but not Metru Nui, implying that there are maskmakers elsewhere, not only in Ta-Metru. However, I do doubt he used anything like this, as it probably wasn't necessary. The Matoran probably did not get the chance to smash many infected masks.

 

Remember when the whole strength of Takutanuva was needed to lift the door to Meru nui and the rest of the universe (and ta-matoran).

Only for powerless Matoran to go through, plus Toa and Turaga, none of whom had teleportation or intangibility powers. The door was no problem for a Makuta. Teridax even teleported the Toa Mata through vast rock layers from Mangaia up to the surface of Mata Nui after the 01 battle; surely one little door is no problem for him! That was also largely about smashing the door when it came back down. If they'd only needed to go through once, he could have just teleported them through. But as it was, he'd have to keep teleporting them back and forth. Smashing the door removed it as a problem.

 

He also knew that revival thingy was on the other side, presumably (unconfirmed but certainly seems implied), so knew the door crashing even upon him would not be permanently fatal. (That is to say, Makuta knew it, therefore Takutanuva either knew it consciously or subconsciously, and Makuta could not be killed himself, so it's the Takanuva half that would know or at least sense that his death there would be reversed. Probably it was conscious though since Makuta likely studied that device to learn how to revive Jaller, and Takanuva participated in working that revival, so the knowledge was probably brought to the Makuta's side's conscious.)

 

I still think that he somehow looted the whole city, or maybe other groups who came before the visorak and who served him.

They very well may have looted what was left after the Toa Metru loaded their extra masks, but not before. That's fact. And it does not seem necessary, nor implied, as the Rahaga, Keetongu, and Dume were still in the city and would fight any such attempts. The Brotherhood could overpower them, but then, why are they still okay a thousand years later? Seems implied they were left alone. They could perhaps evade them while in the city; I doubt we can disprove that, although you'd think Dume would notice and maybe mention it in the 2006 plot.

 

However, what would be the motive for it? Teridax needed the city repaired, after all, for his takeover. Seems more like once the Vissies left the Brotherhood would just ignore the city and leave Dume's tiny group to slowly repair what little of it they could.

 

The voyage to metru nui fram mata nui is rather long (you have to cross half a head), and people could have gotten into Metru nui before the toa Metru or the Visorak. Skakdi, for example.

That forgets that the journey from other locations, even Zakaz, is even longer. Destral would be the exception since it could teleport, but there's no evidence such a thing happened. It would especially look suspicious to Dume and company if Destral itself appeared and launched an invasion, and yet left Dume, etc. uncaptured. It would look like they wanted the city repaired, and could risk tipping their hand about the Plan. Seems better just to make it look like they didn't think it worth the effort at all.

 

Note: Of course, the Visorak took little time to arrive because they used the underwater chutes, but it may be that the spider Rahi can hold their breaths longer underwater than other servants, who would have to collect air bladders. I think in my retelling I did have the Visorak use air bladders, but anywho. In any case, we already know the Toa Metru had plenty of masks to load, since no Matoran a thousand years later ran out of masks and went into a coma. So if someone raided the masks, they obviously did a lousy job of it! (Which certainly seems to imply nobody did.)

 

Anyway, Metru nui is full of hiding places. It could have been looted before the toa came looking for masks, and the toa could still get some. The arcives, for example, are huge.

We do not know that masks were ever stored in the Archives. They were stored in basement levels of the Great Temple, and probably many were still "in the works" in Ta-Metru. Both the Toa and Makuta would know of all those places. It would make sense the shapes would be recorded there, but you can just as easily use stone statues for that. Gotta put those Po-Matoran sculptors to use somehow, no? Plus it just makes more sense for archivists to use sculptures, so that no Toa feels the need to go stealing from the exhibits if they need a different mask power.

 

Now if you want to argue that Teridax did want the Toa to have plenty of replacements, but thought he'd need some too, so would not have completely stolen them, that is trickier to disprove, but it still seems inefficient. The Makuta had no trouble getting new masks placed on new Rahi in the first place at Destral or wherever else they made Rahi; I doubt making replacement masks would be hard for them. If they really needed to they could almost certainly just do it themselves; making animals has got to be harder! Teridax could even have had his own personal forge in one of the side chambers off the Mangaia, and just handed them directly to Nui-Rama to fly up. Really no need for a raid on Metru Nui.


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#36 Offline Octodad

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Posted Jan 27 2014 - 01:56 PM

 

But rahi would get their kanohi broken also, and teridax would need a constant flow of masks coming in to infect them and give them to his rahi.

The story is confusing on this -- the Hapka book clearly indicates the Matoran did not discover the purpose of the infected masks until the Toa Mata arrived. So for a thousand years, the masks would not break other than in accidents. That would leave plenty to still form dangerous armies when the Toa arrived. I tend to think this detail in Hapka's book has to be non-canon. The Matoran weren't stupid, and they had their throwing disks for a thousand years so surely they would have knocked some off and then observed the effects.

 

In the comics, Nuju tells Kopaka about the masks. It's not any sort of conclusive contradictory evidence, but in no source of media are the Matoran explicitly stated to know of the infected masks' purpose (and Nuju's telling could easily be non-canon as well, as the comics frequently employed a character explaining a fact that was canonically found through other means).

 

flight with his wings, which he probably kept until just before the 01 Mata battle

 

Actually, I'm pretty sure it's canon that he lost them in the events of Time Trap. TSO severs them with his eye beams. I suppose he could have shapeshifted new ones, but it seems to be implied that after that point he didn't bother with new wings.


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#37 Offline Katuko

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Posted Jan 27 2014 - 02:09 PM

The story is confusing on this -- the Hapka book clearly indicates the Matoran did not discover the purpose of the infected masks until the Toa Mata arrived. So for a thousand years, the masks would not break other than in accidents. That would leave plenty to still form dangerous armies when the Toa arrived. I tend to think this detail in Hapka's book has to be non-canon. The Matoran weren't stupid, and they had their throwing disks for a thousand years so surely they would have knocked some off and then observed the effects.

Did they even dare to fight back at large until the Toa arrived? They were clearly trying, but judging by how even one Nui-Rama is enough to abduct Taipu in the MNOG (and many Le-matoran were captured as well), we can probably assume that the Matoran would have focused more on defenses than offense. I'm sure they knocked off a mask or five in the 1000 years they spent on the island, but given how the early media portrayed masks (scratched and battle-scarred, but still very durable) I don't think they'd have broken any with a bamboo throwing disk either. I was even surprised when Mazeka broke a Matoran's mask in Brothers in Arms - because I had taken these things to be solid metal with little chance of breaking except from extremely high force.
 

If so, he could teleport to the other side of the heavy door, and by some means or another (flight with his wings, which he probably kept until just before the 01 Mata battle, or teleporting in jumps, depending on the range of that power) travel himself to Metru Nui, where there should still be hundreds of remaining masks for him to bring. Evidence seems to be against this, though, since he wanted to stay by that door to act as constant guardian, and did not usually do things personally, preferring to leave them to minions. Of course, he could have perhaps teleported some infected Nui-Rama or Nui-Kopen through and had them get replacements.

I believe Teridax lost his wings during the events of Time Trap; but he could probably still have teleported across the Silver Sea if he had any need for it. That, or he could have shapeshifted into a creature capable of flight.
 
 

Only for powerless Matoran to go through, plus Toa and Turaga, none of whom had teleportation or intangibility powers. The door was no problem for a Makuta. Teridax even teleported the Toa Mata through vast rock layers from Mangaia up to the surface of Mata Nui after the 01 battle; surely one little door is no problem for him! That was also largely about smashing the door when it came back down. If they'd only needed to go through once, he could have just teleported them through. But as it was, he'd have to keep teleporting them back and forth. Smashing the door removed it as a problem.

Even if Makuta couldn't teleport, he would still have Gravity powers to lift the thing with. Either way he must have gotten through the doorway once on the way to Mangaia - I doubt he would have been stupid enough to shut a door behind him if there was no way to get through to Metru Nui again.
 

He also knew that revival thingy was on the other side, presumably (unconfirmed but certainly seems implied), so knew the door crashing even upon him would not be permanently fatal. (That is to say, Makuta knew it, therefore Takutanuva either knew it consciously or subconsciously, and Makuta could not be killed himself, so it's the Takanuva half that would know or at least sense that his death there would be reversed. Probably it was conscious though since Makuta likely studied that device to learn how to revive Jaller, and Takanuva participated in working that revival, so the knowledge was probably brought to the Makuta's side's conscious.)

Why would the device need to have anything to do with Takanuva's decision to sacrifice energy for Jaller? While Vakama seems to know of it too, there is no telling what Takanuva was thinking at that point beyond repaying the favor.
 

That forgets that the journey from other locations, even Zakaz, is even longer. Destral would be the exception since it could teleport, but there's no evidence such a thing happened. It would especially look suspicious to Dume and company if Destral itself appeared and launched an invasion, and yet left Dume, etc. uncaptured. It would look like they wanted the city repaired, and could risk tipping their hand about the Plan. Seems better just to make it look like they didn't think it worth the effort at all.

Well, the Makuta were the types to rule - not utterly destroy - the universe. Allowing Metru Nui to be repaired does not seem suspicious to me, as a thriving city is far more worth than a dead one. But I agree - most of the items stored in Metru Nui were likely left untouched by actual looters.

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#38 Online Master Inika

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Posted Jan 27 2014 - 02:31 PM

I'm pretty sure Kopeke was changed to make his secondary color different from Matoro's. All of the Kolhii forwards had Great Masks, and the goalkeepers had Noble Masks, but Kopeke had a Noble Mask already, so the mask switch was probably just a stylistic choice.

 

I was starting to think that the Mask of Light was never intended to physically lead anybody to the Seventh Toa. It just glowed depending on how close Takua was, and everyone misinterpreted it as pointing at something. Remember at the Kolhii Stadium, everyone thinks it's glowing to point to Jaller, but it's actually because Takua's foot was touching it.


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#39 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jan 27 2014 - 02:32 PM

Actually, I'm pretty sure it's canon that he lost them in the events of Time Trap. TSO severs them with his eye beams. I suppose he could have shapeshifted new ones, but it seems to be implied that after that point he didn't bother with new wings.

Ah, that sounds familiar now that you mention it. I've suffered from choosing not to include the Time Trap events directly in my retelling so I didn't bother to review it again. :P (The point I was making didn't depend on that bit, of course.)

 

 

Did they even dare to fight back at large until the Toa arrived? They were clearly trying, but judging by how even one Nui-Rama is enough to abduct Taipu in the MNOG (and many Le-matoran were captured as well), we can probably assume that the Matoran would have focused more on defenses than offense. I'm sure they knocked off a mask or five in the 1000 years they spent on the island, but given how the early media portrayed masks (scratched and battle-scarred, but still very durable) I don't think they'd have broken any with a bamboo throwing disk either. I was even surprised when Mazeka broke a Matoran's mask in Brothers in Arms - because I had taken these things to be solid metal with little chance of breaking except from extremely high force.

I would think they knocked off masks all the time, depending on how common the raids were, but I agree they likely didn't break many.

 

As for the material, it's purified protodermis, which seems to have traits in a mixture between metal and plastic, which wouldn't be likely possible with most real-world materials, but makes sense for protodermis (the plastic part in honor of it being LEGO). Plastic can be durable under most circumstances; you can throw it around, and yet apply enough pressure in just the right way, and that doesn't actually take a lot to snap it. It probably wouldn't have merely the traits (and thus strengths) of metal because then it would presumably not be purified, since matter-mimicking behaviors appear to be the primary thing meant by "impurity." However, even real-world metal comes in wide variety, including some that are extremely brittle.

 

Why would the device need to have anything to do with Takanuva's decision to sacrifice energy for Jaller?

"Need" was not what I said, but rather "likely", which seems clear. It's a device that revives, and Takutanuva revives Jaller. There's always other ways Makuta might have learned how to do that, but Ockham's Razor would imply the one right next to where he's been camped out for a thousand years is the first place to look for the source of that knowledge. :) And then reviving Jaller would consciously remind Makuta of how he learned it, bringing it to the Takanuva side's attention.

 

(I also think it's possible that after Takanuva dies, the antidermis that is Makuta influences minds to ensure he is revived, although I'm not 100% sure he knew that he needed Takanuva for the Plan.)

 

If you're asking, would Takanuva's not hearing about the device in Makuta's mind prior to deciding to revive Jaller mean that he wouldn't be able to factor that and likely would not think of reviving Jaller, I think his emotional desire for Jaller not to have died would tend to force knowledge that he could be up from Makuta's side. Makuta probably was already consciously thinking about the possibility, in part because if you ask someone not to think of pink elephants, they can't help but do so. (My apologies to those of you who hoped to go the rest of your lives without thinking of pink elephants again. :P)


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#40 Offline skratchR

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Posted Jan 28 2014 - 12:09 PM

*sigh* Yet again, I run out of arguments in a discussion with bones...  :bowdown:


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