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Why Mata-nui never revived Matoro?

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#1 Offline EmotiveKopeke

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Posted Jan 02 2014 - 12:25 PM

Well hello guys, im new at Bzpower but since Bionicle ended i have been crying but also thinking about its history.

Remember when matoro sacrificed himself to safe his fellow toa friends, well everyone said he was a hero and all that stuff... but why wasn't he revived by Mata-nui i mean, he had already beaten Makuta and he also had the great Mask of Life, The Kanohi Ignika! he could revived Matoro so he could serve his duty as a toa or turaga once again.

Imagine matoro was revived, but with makuta defeated i guess he would transform into a turaga so he could serve the agori and matorans with wisdom and knowledge but anyways he wasn't revived this is a little silly because the mask transformed tahu into a toa mata again but it didn't revive matoro even if it was by matoro why the mask became with the phantoka the Toa Ignika but the mask never showed any act of kindness to him instead it left him forgotten into the darkness of the seas.

But what do you guys think? was it necessary to leave matoro, why, will he ever be revived?

please comment i want to know what you guys think. :)

 

 

 

 

 

P.S. Bionicle will never die!


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#2 Offline Katuko

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Posted Jan 02 2014 - 12:38 PM

I am fairly certain that from the characters' point of view Matoro was not revived simply because there was nothing left of him and no method by which they could even try reviving him. The Mask of Life can do a lot of things, but the revivals we have seen in story have either been done with a body part handy (such as when Takutanuva revives Jaller via his mask, or when Mavrah's corpse was recently revealed to have been taken to the Red Star), or in the case of Hydraxon it was not a "true" revival so much as a transformation of a different being. Matoro's spirit was likely broken down along with his body when the life energy was spent, so that it's impossible to revive him.

Maybe the mask could create a copy of him like it did of Hydraxon, but the potential storage spaces for such a copy are offline (the Great Spirit robot is broken) and the Mask of Life cannot be used by common beings. I also I imagine having a clone of Matoro would not feel the same. Mata Nui has chosen to go dormant, and I'm not sure how aware he was of Matoro's role in his own revival. Being able to resurrect Matoro at all without sacrificing the life force of another being is likely impossible.

From a story writer's standpoint, I don't think Matoro will ever be revived. His role has been fulfilled, and it was fulfilled beautifully. Bringing him back just for the sake of bringing him back would not sit well with me; and I believe Greg has expressed a similar sentiment when asked about the potential for Matoro's return.

If you want to think of it poetically, Matoro kind of lives on as part of Mata Nui.

Edited by Katuko, Jan 02 2014 - 12:40 PM.

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#3 Offline NuvaTube

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Posted Jan 02 2014 - 12:47 PM

If you have been crying since you may want to get your eyes checked! XD

 

I am fairly certain that from the characters' point of view Matoro was not revived simply because there was nothing left of him and no method by which they could even try reviving him. The Mask of Life can do a lot of things, but the revivals we have seen in story have either been done with a body part handy (such as when Takutanuva revives Jaller via his mask, or when Mavrah's corpse was recently revealed to have been taken to the Red Star), or in the case of Hydraxon it was not a "true" revival so much as a transformation of a different being. Matoro's spirit was likely broken down along with his body when the life energy was spent, so that it's impossible to revive him.

Maybe the mask could create a copy of him like it did of Hydraxon, but the potential storage spaces for such a copy are offline (the Great Spirit robot is broken) and the Mask of Life cannot be used by common beings. I also I imagine having a clone of Matoro would not feel the same. Mata Nui has chosen to go dormant, and I'm not sure how aware he was of Matoro's role in his own revival. Being able to resurrect Matoro at all without sacrificing the life force of another being is likely impossible.

From a story writer's standpoint, I don't think Matoro will ever be revived. His role has been fulfilled, and it was fulfilled beautifully. Bringing him back just for the sake of bringing him back would not sit well with me; and I believe Greg has expressed a similar sentiment when asked about the potential for Matoro's return.

If you want to think of it poetically, Matoro kind of lives on as part of Mata Nui.

 

^ All correct I believe (until Bonesiii gets here blasts us with his bio-canon ;) ), except I don't quite know what you mean by "the potential storage spaces for such a copy". I did wonder where the Ignika got the information to turn Dekar into a Hydraxon 2.0, was that from somewhere in the MU?

 

But yeah, your basic answer is that Matoro cannot be truly revived, because his body was completely destroyed, turned to pure life energy. The Ignika could turn someone into a Matoro clone that for all intents and purposes would behave like the real Matoro, but it wouldn't be the same. 

 

He's actually among one of the few MU (Matoran Universe) characters that cannot be revived by the Red Star or otherwise, since there is not physical remainder of him.

 

And welcome to BZP! I came here last year, a while after Bionicle's end too :)


Edited by NuvaTube, Jan 02 2014 - 12:59 PM.

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#4 Offline ChroXumo

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Posted Jan 02 2014 - 12:48 PM

He wasn't a corpse floating in the sea. He wasn't anything anymore, actually. Matoro was basically transformed into the energy needed to revive Mata Nui, so there was really no Matoro left to revive.


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#5 Online bonesiii

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Posted Jan 02 2014 - 01:23 PM

Greg confirmed that records of the original creation of everybody in the MU could be sent to the Red Star. So a new "Matoro" with no memories at all might be possible.

 

And perhaps there was a storage of his identity up until the 777 stairs in that room with the red lightstones where he died and was revived.

 

But Matoro with memories after the 777 stairs is a definite no to revival, because absolutely everything was spent in reviving Mata Nui. This was made clear by Greg after it happened. And any 'revival' at all even by the prior two ideas is very unlikely too. The second seems especially unlikely, though the first is at least confirmed to be possible (but that Matoro would be unrecognizeable except by having the same basic personality; he would really be more like a clone).


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#6 Offline EmotiveKopeke

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Posted Jan 02 2014 - 01:27 PM

Thanks guys well at least matoro did a great job

"you either die as a hero or live long enough to become the villain''


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#7 Online Click

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Posted Jan 02 2014 - 01:42 PM

You know, if Greg really wanted to, he could have included some kind of loophole for Matoro to come back, but I'm really glad he didn't. I think that if he did, it would have cheapened Matoro's sacrifice, as well as any other sacrifice in the Bionicle storyline. I mean, if someone dies trying to save someone else, then everyone will just say "That's too bad. Good think Mata Nui can just revive them, right?" If Matoro had been brought back, nobody would have cared about him as much as they do now.


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#8 Offline Katuko

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Posted Jan 02 2014 - 01:43 PM

^ All correct I believe (until Bonesiii gets here blasts us with his bio-canon ;) ), except I don't quite know what you mean by "the potential storage spaces for such a copy". I did wonder where the Ignika got the information to turn Dekar into a Hydraxon 2.0, was that from somewhere in the MU?


The real Hydraxon had already been revived in the Red Star at that point (to what degree of success we don't know), so whatever the Mask of Life copied to create Hydraxon's personality out of Dekar was likely not the real one's actual spirit. I am just guessing, but I imagine that either the Great Spirit robot or the Red Star must have kept some sort of backup of Hydraxon that the mask could use as a base. It could also be that it is somehow capable of fetching the "blueprint" directly from Hydraxon's revived self up on the Red Star.

When it first happened, I thought Hydraxon was simply dead and that the mask used the body as a base for the transformation. Him being alive in the Red Star complicates things a bit, mostly by making us ask how the Mask could know that he would be a good being to recreate. It has shown itself to be perfectly capable of transforming beings at will in other ways, so it could have made Dekar into a super-strong water breather that could shoot lasers out of his eyes instead. It would serve the same purpose as a guardian.

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#9 Offline NuvaTube

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Posted Jan 02 2014 - 01:58 PM

Thanks guys well at least matoro did a great job

"you either die as a hero or live long enough to become the villain''

 

I don't see how that Dark Knight quote is relevant...I don't think Matoro would have gone bad any time soon...

 

 

 

^ All correct I believe (until Bonesiii gets here blasts us with his bio-canon ;) ), except I don't quite know what you mean by "the potential storage spaces for such a copy". I did wonder where the Ignika got the information to turn Dekar into a Hydraxon 2.0, was that from somewhere in the MU?


The real Hydraxon had already been revived in the Red Star at that point (to what degree of success we don't know), so whatever the Mask of Life copied to create Hydraxon's personality out of Dekar was likely not the real one's actual spirit. I am just guessing, but I imagine that either the Great Spirit robot or the Red Star must have kept some sort of backup of Hydraxon that the mask could use as a base. It could also be that it is somehow capable of fetching the "blueprint" directly from Hydraxon's revived self up on the Red Star.

When it first happened, I thought Hydraxon was simply dead and that the mask used the body as a base for the transformation. Him being alive in the Red Star complicates things a bit, mostly by making us ask how the Mask could know that he would be a good being to recreate. It has shown itself to be perfectly capable of transforming beings at will in other ways, so it could have made Dekar into a super-strong water breather that could shoot lasers out of his eyes instead. It would serve the same purpose as a guardian.

 

 

Hmm, thanks for the info ^_^


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#10 Offline Dralcax

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Posted Jan 08 2014 - 02:25 PM

There were only a few other times when reviving occured. It was clear that all you needed was a lot of energy and the deceased's mask. The reason why the mask is required is because the spirit is still attached to the mask for a short time after death, hence why Jaller was revived from the Noble Hau and not Lhikan, whose spirit had already left the mask.

 

When Matoro sacrificed himself, it was said that Matoro himself had become part of the MU. This implies that when Matoro died, not only was his body converted to energy and used to "jump start" the MU's systems, his spirit was also used in the process. It is highly likely that his spirit was consumed as energy by the MU. It's as if you used electricity to power a lightbulb. Once used up, it's pretty difficult to get back said electricity. So Matoro is pretty much gone for good, as his spirit is probably some useless heat energy floating around by now.


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#11 Offline Just Norik

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Posted Jan 09 2014 - 08:34 AM

Like what Dralcax said, revival needed Matoro's Spirit (or CPU memory). It was heavily implied that all of Matoro was consumed as energy, and I suppose so was his memory data(Spirit). E=MC^2 anyone?

BUT... it is possible a back-up was beamed to the Red Star so he *could* be revived with memories(like Mavrah). But really, it would just cheapen his sacrifice(like what Click said above.).

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#12 Offline NickonAquaMagna

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Posted Jan 09 2014 - 08:40 AM

Bringing characters back just because their fans miss them is bad writing.


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#13 Offline Just Norik

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Posted Jan 09 2014 - 09:02 AM

Precisely. But technically, Matoro would be hard to revive anyway. Because all of him, and I mean ALL, including spirit and data et cetera was consumed as energy to revive Mata Nui. Unless there's a back-up of him.
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#14 Offline NickonAquaMagna

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Posted Jan 09 2014 - 09:36 AM

Precisely. But technically, Matoro would be hard to revive anyway. Because all of him, and I mean ALL, including spirit and data et cetera was consumed as energy to revive Mata Nui. Unless there's a back-up of him.

 

Well, assuming these characters do have souls (and I'd like to think they do, since they technically are living things) thanks in part to Velika, I find it dreadful to imagine Matoro being trapped somewhere in Mata Nui's giant robot body AS it's possessed by Makuta and then shut down. That would be... like, purgatory. And even the thought of his consciousness just disappearing altogether is hard to stomach. Maybe he's watching over his friends in some timeless, ethereal form, with Mata Nui. I dunno.


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#15 Offline Katuko

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Posted Jan 09 2014 - 09:54 AM

Well, assuming these characters do have souls (and I'd like to think they do, since they technically are living things) thanks in part to Velika, I find it dreadful to imagine Matoro being trapped somewhere in Mata Nui's giant robot body AS it's possessed by Makuta and then shut down. That would be... like, purgatory. And even the thought of his consciousness just disappearing altogether is hard to stomach. Maybe he's watching over his friends in some timeless, ethereal form, with Mata Nui. I dunno.

Well, LEGO never wanted real-world religious/philosophical issues to enter the story, but we know that they have souls in the form of spirits. We can conclude that this is what there is to Matoran and other bio-mechanical races. Their spirit can detach from the body and stay in various forms of self-awareness, as shown by the Kanohi Iden's spirit walk power (which actually leaves the body an empty shell which others can possess, so it's not just a mental extension of the senses) and by Mata Nui when he died and felt himself be pulled back - but was unable to return because Makuta had stolen his body.

In this universe, at least the Matoran have souls/spirits that exist in a tangible form. While they appear to be invisible, for the most part, we know that energy-based beings such as the Makuta can cease to exist completely if their energies disperse too much - their consciousness simply fades, as there is not enough "spirit" left in one place to keep it around. We can also assume that the spirit - being an invisible "cloud" of sorts that can be manipulated (Makuta could place Mata Nui's spirit in the Ignika, using the robot's systems - must consist of some form of hyper-advanced organic technology or whatever the Great Beings used when they made the Matoran.

A tangible phenomena must have some form of matter/energy in it. Matoro's entire body and spirit was taken by the Ignika and used as fuel to resurrect Mata Nui. The wording used - that he "truly dies" - indicates to me that his spirit also ceased to exist completely. Whatever it was made of, it was spent as energy. Matoro's body can not be retrieved, and his spirit can not be revived either. The only possible return would come from a "backup" somewhere, but I am fairly certain that even if such a thing existed it would not be his actual spirit in storage, it would just be the data to create a copy via super-advanced GB tech.

But yeah, I think Matoro has permanently ceased to exist, with no backup or lingering spirit left.

Edited by Katuko, Jan 09 2014 - 09:56 AM.

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#16 Offline NickonAquaMagna

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Posted Jan 09 2014 - 10:18 AM

Wow... reminds me of a really tragic scene from Battle Angel Alita- Last Order where she finds the "empty" but freshly preserved body of a friend of hers that she was looking for for a while. She begs this amazing scientist she knows to find some way to bring her friend back, and he delves into what you've just talked about. He says things like,

 

"Would you have me make a clone of her? Where's the sense in that? The memories and personality would be gone. It would be a completely different person that only LOOKED like ***." (not gonna spoil the character's name)

 

And going on about how you can't measure life by organs and genetic data alone... that it's the memory that defines someone, almost like a computer, and if THAT data is erased, then that person you knew is effectively, truly dead.

 

I guess it's the same with Matoran and Toa.


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#17 Offline Stan McStudz

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Posted Jan 10 2014 - 11:20 AM

Bringing characters back just because their fans miss them is bad writing.

 

I'm sorry, but I just keep thinking of Couson from The Avengers. Call it what you will, but they DID bring him back in "Agents of SHIELD".


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#18 Offline ChroXumo

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Posted Jan 10 2014 - 12:02 PM

Yep, and I'm sure Nick would say it was bad writing. :P


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#19 Offline Katuko

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Posted Jan 10 2014 - 02:42 PM

And going on about how you can't measure life by organs and genetic data alone... that it's the memory that defines someone, almost like a computer, and if THAT data is erased, then that person you knew is effectively, truly dead.

Something similar happens in the backstory for Fullmetal Alchemist. The main characters learn alchemy so that they can bring back their dead mother, but as they learn a little too late it is not enough to just assemble the right ingredients for creating a human body. The actual person is more than just bones, so Ed loses a limb and Al loses his entire body in the process of giving the thing life. This leaves Al trapped in the empty shell of a body, and Ed is forced to sacrifice another limb to get the power to move Al's soul (or whatever you want to call it) from the malformed body and into a nearby suit of armor. For the rest of the series, Al walks around as an empty armor, and Ed has metal prosthetic in place of his arm and leg.

It's pretty much like the Mask of Life worked: In order to bring back Mata Nui life, it had to draw the energy from someone else wearing the mask. The resurrection of Jaller, on the other hand, could be done with less energy, it seemed (though it still basically killed the Takutanuva fusion). I believe it's been stated that this "just" recreated a functional body by help of the imprint on his Kanohi, and then attached the existing spirit to it.

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#20 Offline ChroXumo

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Posted Jan 10 2014 - 04:39 PM

It's pretty much like the Mask of Life worked ...

Jaller was a suit of armor resembling a rhinoceros. Right. :P


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