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Golden Kanohi


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#1 Offline Friend of Fire

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Posted Jan 25 2014 - 10:22 PM

I came up with this theory back in 2009 when I was reading the Kanohi section of BS01, and I was looking at the Golden Kanohi page.

 

Now, we all know what the Golden Kanohi are:  Six golden masks with the power of the six masks worn by the Toa Mata all in one. In order for the Toa Mata to obtain these masks, they basically had to give up their six Kanohi each.

 

The Toa were then able to use the various powers within for a variety of different things, from facing Makuta to collecting Krana. The Toa Mata would not have had their original six masks because they “traded” them for the Golden Kanohi they then wore.

 

But what would had been the purpose of this trade. Sure, they wouldn't have to worry about losing the other five because the others were all in one mask instead of their Suva. This I believe is the key.

 

The shields of Karda Nui are strong enough to prevent the swap of a mask with another from a Toa's Suva. The Golden Kanohi would not have had need of the other masks stored at the Suva, because they basically wouldn't be able to in the first place. Without the Golden Kanohi, any danger within Karda Nui would have probably been difficult for the Toa Mata to deal with should they need any of the their other Kanohi . Without the other masks to call upon, the Toa would have had to be pretty smart in their fight or what ever circumstance there was, if there was any.

 

So, my theory is thus:  The Golden Kanohi were meant to be a way to help arm the Toa Mata should any danger be within the core. They were basically a foresight for a possible situation there. Also, there was mentioned once of multiple ways to awaken Mata Nui, so maybe one of the ways to waken him would have required them. But it would seem that the Golden Kanohi would have had a purpose in Karda Nui.

 

What do you guys think?


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#2 Offline ChroXumo

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Posted Jan 25 2014 - 10:38 PM

Interesting theory. If I remember correctly the main focus of the Core's barrier was antiteleportation, and if the masks teleport from Suvas, then this theory is very plausible.


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#3 Offline Katuko

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Posted Jan 26 2014 - 10:12 AM

It's been brought up before, and my answer then was pretty much the same as yours: It's helpful when you don't have access to a Suva; or when you don't want to spend a few seconds on switching masks. I don't think they were specifically designed to work in Karda Nui, they're just a convenient way to pack as much power as possible into one Kanohi. Arthaka evidently expected Toa Nuva to show up, but for some reason he did not make golden versions of the Nuva masks. While the mask powers could be shared between allies in close proximity, clearly Karda Nui is big enough that the Toa would likely separate at some point. He had enough time to give them Adaptive Armor, so Golden Masks would likely have been easy if he were expecting them to be needed.

Onua demonstrates in MNOG that the mask switch is very quick (fast enough to switch from a Pakari to a Hau before a leaping Lewa has reached him), but it could potentially be advantageous to not even have to do that. For example, if someone is facing Tahu and expects his tricks to involve fire and blocking attacks, they'd be surprised to find him suddenly rush at them with super-speed or break through their guard with boosted strength. Unlike regular Kanohi, shape recognition would not be enough to determine whether your opponent has switched powers or not.

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#4 Offline skratchR

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Posted Jan 26 2014 - 12:03 PM

I came up with this theory back in 2009 when I was reading the Kanohi section of BS01, and I was looking at the Golden Kanohi page.

 

Now, we all know what the Golden Kanohi are:  Six golden masks with the power of the six masks worn by the Toa Mata all in one. In order for the Toa Mata to obtain these masks, they basically had to give up their six Kanohi each.

 

The Toa were then able to use the various powers within for a variety of different things, from facing Makuta to collecting Krana. The Toa Mata would not have had their original six masks because they “traded” them for the Golden Kanohi they then wore.

 

But what would had been the purpose of this trade. Sure, they wouldn't have to worry about losing the other five because the others were all in one mask instead of their Suva. This I believe is the key.

 

The shields of Karda Nui are strong enough to prevent the swap of a mask with another from a Toa's Suva. The Golden Kanohi would not have had need of the other masks stored at the Suva, because they basically wouldn't be able to in the first place. Without the Golden Kanohi, any danger within Karda Nui would have probably been difficult for the Toa Mata to deal with should they need any of the their other Kanohi . Without the other masks to call upon, the Toa would have had to be pretty smart in their fight or what ever circumstance there was, if there was any.

 

So, my theory is thus:  The Golden Kanohi were meant to be a way to help arm the Toa Mata should any danger be within the core. They were basically a foresight for a possible situation there. Also, there was mentioned once of multiple ways to awaken Mata Nui, so maybe one of the ways to waken him would have required them. But it would seem that the Golden Kanohi would have had a purpose in Karda Nui.

 

What do you guys think?

 

The idea is to be able to use several mask powers at once for example: protecting oneself (hau), while flying (miru) really fast (pakari).


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#5 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jan 26 2014 - 04:50 PM

The idea is to be able to use several mask powers at once for example: protecting oneself (hau), while flying (miru) really fast (pakari).

 

Multiple mask powers cannot be used at once. The Golden Kanohi only speed up how fast the power can be switched.


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#6 Offline Baltarc

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Posted Jan 26 2014 - 06:07 PM

The idea is to be able to use several mask powers at once for example: protecting oneself (hau), while flying (miru) really fast (pakari).

 
 

Multiple mask powers cannot be used at once. The Golden Kanohi only speed up how fast the power can be switched.


I'm curious as to the source of both of these claims. BS01 doesn't seem to give any indication as to whether multiple powers can be used simultaneously.

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#7 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jan 26 2014 - 06:12 PM

 

The idea is to be able to use several mask powers at once for example: protecting oneself (hau), while flying (miru) really fast (pakari).

 
 

Multiple mask powers cannot be used at once. The Golden Kanohi only speed up how fast the power can be switched.


I'm curious as to the source of both of these claims. BS01 doesn't seem to give any indication as to whether multiple powers can be used simultaneously.

 

It's a Greg answer: 

 

 


1)could the ignika’a powers be combined with matoros mahri mask (have trouble with mask names as you can tell) could someone truelly awak the dead?i know a toa can not use 2 masks at once (right?) but what if a being had that power?
 
1) Since no one can use two masks at a time, this can’t happen. 
 
1. So combining two masks together with the Spear of Fusion will not get you a mask with the two mask powers? 
1) Nope
 
1. Can anyone wear more than one mask? like vakama in lomn?   
 
  1) Yes, but it is not accepted practice 
 
1. Does that mean that Vakama was wearing the Vahi and the Huna at the same time? I assumed it was the movie team taking liberties with appearance to hide the Toa's face. If you actually can use two mask powers at the same time, it's a hugely important piece of information.   
 
  Big difference between wearing two masks and being able to use two mask powers. Not being ambidextrous, I can hold two pens, but not write legibly with both at the same time.
 
 
I've noticed from the first two movies that the characters can wear two masks at once.  How is this possible? How many Masks can one wear at once? Can all the powers be used in this case? 
 
Like you said, that is largely a movie thing -- it has only happened in the comics with the Vahi, which being a legendary mask, does not have to follow the same rules as normal masks. The only other exception was the Dume-Makuta situation, which I frankly saw as more him shapeshifting than doing what it appeared he was doing.
Bolded stuff is the most relevant. (emphasis mine)

Edited by fishers64, Jan 26 2014 - 06:13 PM.

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#8 Offline Primis

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Posted Jan 26 2014 - 07:14 PM

The idea is to be able to use several mask powers at once for example: protecting oneself (hau), while flying (miru) really fast (pakari).



Multiple mask powers cannot be used at once. The Golden Kanohi only speed up how fast the power can be switched.


I'm curious as to the source of both of these claims. BS01 doesn't seem to give any indication as to whether multiple powers can be used simultaneously.

It's a Greg answer:


1)could the ignika’a powers be combined with matoros mahri mask (have trouble with mask names as you can tell) could someone truelly awak the dead?i know a toa can not use 2 masks at once (right?) but what if a being had that power?

1) Since no one can use two masks at a time, this can’t happen.

1. So combining two masks together with the Spear of Fusion will not get you a mask with the two mask powers?
1) Nope

1. Can anyone wear more than one mask? like vakama in lomn?

1) Yes, but it is not accepted practice

1. Does that mean that Vakama was wearing the Vahi and the Huna at the same time? I assumed it was the movie team taking liberties with appearance to hide the Toa's face. If you actually can use two mask powers at the same time, it's a hugely important piece of information.

Big difference between wearing two masks and being able to use two mask powers. Not being ambidextrous, I can hold two pens, but not write legibly with both at the same time.


I've noticed from the first two movies that the characters can wear two masks at once. How is this possible? How many Masks can one wear at once? Can all the powers be used in this case?

Like you said, that is largely a movie thing -- it has only happened in the comics with the Vahi, which being a legendary mask, does not have to follow the same rules as normal masks. The only other exception was the Dume-Makuta situation, which I frankly saw as more him shapeshifting than doing what it appeared he was doing.

Bolded stuff is the most relevant. (emphasis mine)


That doesn't say anything about the Golden Kanohi. It does however imply that special masks don't have to follow the same rules as ordinary masks, and the Golden Kanohi were anything but ordinary.

I'm not sure if either ability has been confirmed, but I'm more inclined to believe the "multiple powers, concurrently" ability than the "quicker mask swapping" ability; I've heard about the former countless times, but this is the first I've heard about the latter. Considering how fast mask swapping already was in MNOG, it would be a really redundant power.

Edited by Primis, Jan 27 2014 - 12:05 PM.

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#9 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jan 26 2014 - 10:17 PM

I'm not sure if either ability has been confirmed, but I'm more inclined to believe the "multiple powers, concurrently" ablility than the "quicker mask swapping" ability; I've heard about the former countless times, but this is the first I've heard about the latter.

The latter has been concluded in S&T before. It's generally seen as common knowledge... I'd love to see a quote disproving it, but to say that the quotes we have don't specifically mention Golden Kanohi is argument from silence, a fallacy. Unless directly confirmed to be multiple powers at once, they should be assumed to only use one at a time.

 

I was pretty sure Greg confirmed it's just one at a time, but it's fair to want to see the quote. It's my memory after all. :P

 

But notice, the quotes fishers gave aren't doing what you seem to think -- they're not just listing certain candidates for simultaneous use and disproving each candidate. No, Greg explained, by analogy, why they can't use more than one at a time. They don't have the mental capacity for it. So I'd say the quotes do disprove simultaneous Golden Kanohi usage. Keep in mind too that Turaga can't use even one Great Mask due to lack of mental capacity, and Toa don't have enough to use Legendary masks safely. So that's a major limitation on mask usage, and doesn't change just because you're wearing a different mask or a special mask. Still the same brain operating that mask.

 

 

To the topic theory -- I think this is reasonable. Artakha might not know for sure they would become Nuva, at least not at that time per se, although if it was definitely destined for them to, when they entered Karda Nui I'd think it would be too late. There's not really a lot of EP lying around there yanno? :P But assuming he wasn't 100% sure they'd be Nuva, having Golden Masks makes a lot of sense for entering Karda Nui. And yeah, it's not a new idea, but good thinking anyways. ^_^


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#10 Offline skratchR

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Posted Jan 27 2014 - 11:49 AM

'desperately tries to defend his theory'

 

The 'not knowing they would be nuva' would be the last argument I have for the multiple powers at once -_- . The golden kanohi would give them the same powers when alone that the nuva would when they were together.

 

In the comics we can see how 2 toa use their kanohi Miru and Pakari nuva to make the others fly with speed towards ta-koro. The 'multiple power' theory would give them the same powers, but without needing the help of the others.

 

Artakha surely wanted to have the most powerful toa he could find, so he gave them the same abilities a Nuva has, but without giving them kanohi nuva?

 

'sees how his theory is dead'


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#11 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jan 27 2014 - 12:07 PM

In any event, it is possible that the Golden Kanohi might allow simultaneous power usage by someone more mentally capable, although in that case that person could use multiple mask powers by slapping more masks on their face without having to use a Golden Kanohi. The golden mask just makes the whole thing more convenient.  (Which is true in case of the other thing as well.)


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#12 Offline Katuko

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Posted Jan 27 2014 - 01:46 PM

If they allowed multiple powers when used by the Toa, there is pretty much no reason why they wouldn't all have used Speed, Strength, Shielding and Levitation all at once against Makuta or the Bohrok. I've never seen anyone state in official sources that the Golden Kanohi granted multiple powers at once either. Do we have a quote for it? Greg's answers basically all say that Toa don't have the mental capacity for multiple powers at once.
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#13 Offline The Legendary TNT

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Posted Jan 27 2014 - 03:50 PM

So, is the only reason that they can't use multiple powers at once due to the reason of mental capacity? Because if you take a Toa like Helryx, who has been honing their skills for their entire career, could they use multiple mask powers?


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#14 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jan 27 2014 - 05:43 PM

So, is the only reason that they can't use multiple powers at once due to the reason of mental capacity? Because if you take a Toa like Helryx, who has been honing their skills for their entire career, could they use multiple mask powers?

I would have to say no. No matter how much a Turaga practices using Noble Kanohi, they can never again control Great Masks. Same principle, I'd think.


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#15 Offline skratchR

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Posted Feb 11 2014 - 01:23 PM

And what about superior beings who use masks? Could Artakha use 2 kanohi at the same time?


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#16 Offline fishers64

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Posted Feb 11 2014 - 02:04 PM

And what about superior beings who use masks? Could Artakha use 2 kanohi at the same time?

Possible, I imagine, but probably just two Great Masks, not the MoC and another one. He can control a Legendary Mask, so he probably has a higher skill in that area than, say, Tahu. 

 

As for Makuta, :shrugs:, Karzanhi probably not, Mata Nui yes (If you can control a giant robot and the Mask of Life, two great masks should be a snap). The other beings like OoMN agents I say no, mostly because they seem to be on the same plane mentally as our heroes (who knows what the antidermified Brutahka is capable of though). 


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#17 Offline Silverglass

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Posted Feb 11 2014 - 02:42 PM

I see a Toa using more than one mask power at once being on the same level as, or at least close to, that of using a legendary mask: even if it is possible, I doubt it would be a good idea. And really, no amount of mental training would ever prepare them for it because they were "programed" that way. I can practice calligraphy to my heart's content and maybe become a pro at it, but if I'm programed to never go outside the realm of basic handwriting, giving me a brush isn't going to suddenly make me write in kanji, no matter how much I practice.  

As to the original theory, I think it's a neat idea.  :)


Edited by Silverglass, Feb 11 2014 - 02:44 PM.

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#18 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Feb 11 2014 - 04:11 PM

As for Makuta, :shrugs:

Well, Greg confirmed they can only use one Makuta power at a time. Seems logical to presume this applies to their mask usage too.


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#19 Offline NuvaTube

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Posted Feb 11 2014 - 04:20 PM

Kaita beings can control 3 Kanohi powers, but they are basically 3 brains in 1 with 3 Kanohi in 1. So you could argue that it doesn't really count, but it shows a single MU being can do it.


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#20 Offline Katuko

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Posted Feb 11 2014 - 05:16 PM

Could they control all three powers at once, though? I thought they just had the option of switching between them, with the Kaita masks being "Golden Kanohi lite edition" in a way. It would make sense that they could, though, being the joined consciousness of three beings. Still, if Makuta's will beat them and forced them to de-fuse, then in the end it can't be that strong of a connection.

Edited by Katuko, Feb 11 2014 - 05:17 PM.

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#21 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Feb 11 2014 - 11:43 PM

Could they control all three powers at once, though?

Yes. I wasn't sure just from memory, but I thought I recalled that BS01 gave the answer, and found it:

 

The Kanohi Aki was the Great Mask of Valor. It gave its user the powers of Shielding, Speed, and Strength. Aki can be formed by merging a Hau, Pakari, and Kakama together. The powers could be activated separately or in combination.

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#22 Offline Katuko

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Posted Feb 12 2014 - 05:34 AM

I suppose the question we are left with then are whether the Golden Kanohi could theoretically allow multi-power usage if you stuck it on a being of sufficient mental capacity, or if they just have a mental switch of sorts to activate any one power at a time.
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#23 Offline Kung Fu Pyro

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Posted Feb 17 2014 - 12:21 AM

In Tale of the Toa, it is stated that the Golden Kanohi served two purposes: combining the masks and enhancing their powers. They also seem to have been created specifically for the Toa Mata, seeing as how no other set of Golden Kanohi has been found, heard of, or even implied to exist. Assuming, of course, that the masks were made for the Toa Mata, adding in the ability to use multiple powers at once seems rather pointless, as adding such a feature would almost assuredly take more time and effort, all for the end result of the wearers not being able to use it.
 
The Bohrok-Kal incident also proved that Suvas are, if found, completely vulnerable to attack. Having one combined mask would remove the liability of someone simply stealing all the masks from the Suva, making the Toa's abilities not only stronger, but more secure.
 
Basically, my take on the issue basically states that the Golden Kanohi are simply a more practical and powerful way for the users to gain access to their mask powers, supporting the aforementioned theory of a mental switch.

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