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Why do you guys dislike Hero Factory so much?

Hero Factory Story

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#41 Offline Watcher on the Walls

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Posted Apr 02 2014 - 02:38 PM

Most people who hate/dislike HF are probably Bionicle fans. Like the obvious, most HF haters see Bionicle taken down, then when Lego offered HF as a "replacement", they don't like it. They feel like it's not "fun" enough, not complex enough, simply not good enough, I guess. They feel like that after 10 years of Bionicle, the need more then a line of "robo-cops"(haha, I guess I could say that) with a not-very-strong storyline to replace it. That's how I think they feel, and personally, I used to hate it a lot, especially for some of these reasons, but now, I guess I don't really hate it anymore, but I probably won't like it.


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#42 Offline Aanchir

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Posted Apr 02 2014 - 03:48 PM

Well, here on BZPower most HF haters are probably BIONICLE fans, because that's the foundation the site was built on. Overall, though, I imagine most HF haters within the LEGO community are people who previously hated BIONICLE, and for many of the same reasons.

A reminder to everyone: BIONICLE was not popular in all circles. The AFOL community tended to reject it for various reasons. Its elaborate storyline was a radical departure from 70s and 80s themes in which characters were usually unnamed and play was largely open-ended. The parts were far more specialized in their designs than traditional LEGO building elements, with lots of molded pistons and elaborate framework textures. The simplified building style resulted in a price per piece that was often absurd by LEGO System and LEGO Technic standards alike. The models were not inspired by real life or by decades-old cultural traditions, but were instead crafted for a single story context that the LEGO Group created. Plenty of the sets were near-identical in construction. A lot of the collectibility came from gimmicky trinkets like Kanohi and Krana. The series was edgy and incorporated lots of violent combat in its marketing materials and play features, in contrast with earlier themes where the violence was more subdued on packaging and marketing materials. Perhaps most egregiously, the theme distanced itself from its roots as a LEGO theme, shoving the LEGO logo to the bottom of the packaging, minimizing the role of building in the storyline, and eschewing the LEGO brand's trademark humor and zany crossovers in favor of a solitary mythology that was taken VERY seriously.

Hero Factory has diminished these traits very slightly, but it's still radically different from "classic" LEGO, and so the AFOL stigma against it lives on. Granted, the hate is not quite so severe because Hero Factory is not seen as taking the place of "real LEGO" like the massive BIONICLE theme seemed to in the eyes of many AFOLs (not only are there fewer HF sets per year, but BIONICLE came out at a time when other themes were failing, while HF came out at a time when other themes were thriving). Plus, hating on constraction is no longer as acceptable as it was back when Lugnet was the central hub of the AFOL community and AFOL conventions were in their infancy.

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#43 Offline fishers64

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Posted Apr 02 2014 - 07:13 PM

Nah. While the reaction of the Bionicle community to HF has been "meh", I'm thinking that hate is a bit extreme. 

 

Hate is the active commitment to the destruction of a person, thing, object, or idea. So far I haven't seen any boycotts or HF set burning parties among Bionicle fans, so I don't think we have hate. 

 

We might have dislike, which is a failure to derive positive emotion from/be entertained by HF, but I don't think we're destroying stuff. 


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#44 Offline Lyichir

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Posted Apr 02 2014 - 07:22 PM

Nah. While the reaction of the Bionicle community to HF has been "meh", I'm thinking that hate is a bit extreme. 

 

Hate is the active commitment to the destruction of a person, thing, object, or idea. So far I haven't seen any boycotts or HF set burning parties among Bionicle fans, so I don't think we have hate. 

 

We might have dislike, which is a failure to derive positive emotion from/be entertained by HF, but I don't think we're destroying stuff. 

I remember seeing attempted HF set burning parties before. No joke. Unsurprisingly, I don't think they went through with it, especially after people pointed out that they'd have to buy the sets to do so.

In addition, there are varying ways to show hate. I've seen planned attacks on pro-HF Facebook groups and the like. And I've seen PLENTY of similar examples of hate directed at HF fans who are perceived as "betraying" Bionicle.

Luckily BZP does a pretty good job of keeping out people who engage in this sort of behavior. But don't think for a minute that they don't exist.


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#45 Offline Matoro Lives

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Posted Apr 09 2014 - 03:35 PM

When lego first announced hero factory, I was at first a little sad about the ending of Bionicle. I figured bionicle would have to end sometime because it was nearing its 10 year anniversary at the time, so I was preparing for it to end soon. Hero factory came around and I was relatively impressed by its first wave of sets, which were very reminiscent of bionicle. The story at the time wasn't as good, but there was a decent amount of character development on Furno, Stormer, and Von Nebula. I figured that even though it wasn't bionicle they would improve over time. After all bionicle set a very high standard for HF to live up to. Wave 2 rolled around with an even more poorly developed story which can only be described as hero gets beat, hero gets upgrade, hero beats up bad guy. The 2.0 line looked like someone had vomited military gear all over the heroes, but the villains were still a decent design (giant power drill ftw). The next line of heroes looked really cool with their animal gear (although the weapons mostly sucked). And the new villains didn't have much character (except for a short backstory for the Witch Doctor). The new hero, rocka, was pretty much a cheap knockoff of Furno. Breakout was terrible, horribly designed sets all the way around. The only redeeming factor was that Mark Hamill voiced the main villain. Brain Attack was just as bad as Breakout, although it did have a nod to the infected mask/bohrok storylines of bionicle. Invasion from below was like lego to exo-force and bionicle and made a horrible, abomination from the 2 themes (although the hero minifigs are kind of cool).

The first year of hero factory was a good start, but everything just got worse after that. Character development ceased, the tv show got cornier and cornier. The sets that are being produced are just laughable, a mere shadow of what lego action figures used to be. There is no real main villain or main league of villains, just heroes taking out basic criminals, or aliens sometimes working under a slightly more sinister leader. All in all HF is just digging its own grave, its only a matter of time before the theme ends. To be honest I'm surprised it hasn't already.

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POWER TO THE FANS
LETS TAKE BACK BZP FROM THE HERO FACTORY FANBOYS
STOP THIS POINTLESS CENSORSHIP AND SHEATHE THE BAN HAMMERS
BRING BACK THE FRIENDLY AND INFORMATIVE BZP
SUPPORT TTV AND GET ON THE HYPE TRAIN

BIONICLE 2015 BIONICLE 2015 BIONICLE 2015 BIONICLE 2015 BIONICLE 2015 BIONICLE 2015 BIONICLE 2015

#46 Offline Aanchir

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Posted Apr 09 2014 - 06:20 PM

When lego first announced hero factory, I was at first a little sad about the ending of Bionicle. I figured bionicle would have to end sometime because it was nearing its 10 year anniversary at the time, so I was preparing for it to end soon. Hero factory came around and I was relatively impressed by its first wave of sets, which were very reminiscent of bionicle. The story at the time wasn't as good, but there was a decent amount of character development on Furno, Stormer, and Von Nebula. I figured that even though it wasn't bionicle they would improve over time. After all bionicle set a very high standard for HF to live up to. Wave 2 rolled around with an even more poorly developed story which can only be described as hero gets beat, hero gets upgrade, hero beats up bad guy. The 2.0 line looked like someone had vomited military gear all over the heroes, but the villains were still a decent design (giant power drill ftw). The next line of heroes looked really cool with their animal gear (although the weapons mostly sucked). And the new villains didn't have much character (except for a short backstory for the Witch Doctor). The new hero, rocka, was pretty much a cheap knockoff of Furno. Breakout was terrible, horribly designed sets all the way around. The only redeeming factor was that Mark Hamill voiced the main villain. Brain Attack was just as bad as Breakout, although it did have a nod to the infected mask/bohrok storylines of bionicle. Invasion from below was like lego to exo-force and bionicle and made a horrible, abomination from the 2 themes (although the hero minifigs are kind of cool).

The first year of hero factory was a good start, but everything just got worse after that. Character development ceased, the tv show got cornier and cornier. The sets that are being produced are just laughable, a mere shadow of what lego action figures used to be. There is no real main villain or main league of villains, just heroes taking out basic criminals, or aliens sometimes working under a slightly more sinister leader. All in all HF is just digging its own grave, its only a matter of time before the theme ends. To be honest I'm surprised it hasn't already.

If you think the 2011 Hero Factory sets are better than later series, I have a feeling you're ignoring the most important aspect of any building toy: the way the sets are actually built. Regardless of what you think of the looks, the 2012, 2013, and 2014 sets are much more imaginative designs than the 2011 sets, or for that matter, the 2010 sets.

The 1.0 heroes were pitiful, with fewer than 20 parts, all of which were extremely specialized. The builds were incredibly formulaic and there was really very little "building" whatsoever. The villains weren't a whole lot better — only the larger sets like Von Nebula, Rotor, Drop Ship, and Furno Bike offered a lot of complexity or diversity in construction. The 2.0 and 3.0 heroes gave the heroes much more unique armor and weapons and about 30 pieces each. The Savage Planet sets also gave us the first non-humanoid villains, as well as the largest and most complex humanoid figure in the entire theme.

The Breakout series in 2012 took the previous year's building system even further. Heroes were given even more diverse armor and equipment, and even varied in size. Villains likewise varied in size, and the villain designs were more creative and diverse than ever before. The heroes and villains in 2013 were a bit more formulaic than those from 2012 (most of the Brain Attack heroes followed very similar design considerations, and all but one of the villains were humanoid in design), but they had creative and complex weapon designs and implemented a fair number of action features.

This year's Invasion from Below battle machine sets are some of the most imaginative and complex sets to date. The mid-size sets have more pieces than any BIONICLE canister sets or mid-size Hero Factory sets ever released previously. The beasts are not quite as imaginative, with most having fairly run-of-the-mill humanoid builds, but they still have a lot of variety.

If you want action figures, then I can see why you might not like certain Hero Factory sets, because in that case the only thing that matters is how the sets look. But if you want a building toy, I can't see how anybody would think the original Hero Factory sets hold a candle to more recent sets. The heroes in particular were pathetic even by BIONICLE standards.

Edited by Aanchir: Rachira of Time, Apr 09 2014 - 06:23 PM.

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#47 Offline Matoro Lives

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Posted Apr 09 2014 - 11:24 PM

When lego first announced hero factory, I was at first a little sad about the ending of Bionicle. I figured bionicle would have to end sometime because it was nearing its 10 year anniversary at the time, so I was preparing for it to end soon. Hero factory came around and I was relatively impressed by its first wave of sets, which were very reminiscent of bionicle. The story at the time wasn't as good, but there was a decent amount of character development on Furno, Stormer, and Von Nebula. I figured that even though it wasn't bionicle they would improve over time. After all bionicle set a very high standard for HF to live up to. Wave 2 rolled around with an even more poorly developed story which can only be described as hero gets beat, hero gets upgrade, hero beats up bad guy. The 2.0 line looked like someone had vomited military gear all over the heroes, but the villains were still a decent design (giant power drill ftw). The next line of heroes looked really cool with their animal gear (although the weapons mostly sucked). And the new villains didn't have much character (except for a short backstory for the Witch Doctor). The new hero, rocka, was pretty much a cheap knockoff of Furno. Breakout was terrible, horribly designed sets all the way around. The only redeeming factor was that Mark Hamill voiced the main villain. Brain Attack was just as bad as Breakout, although it did have a nod to the infected mask/bohrok storylines of bionicle. Invasion from below was like lego to exo-force and bionicle and made a horrible, abomination from the 2 themes (although the hero minifigs are kind of cool).The first year of hero factory was a good start, but everything just got worse after that. Character development ceased, the tv show got cornier and cornier. The sets that are being produced are just laughable, a mere shadow of what lego action figures used to be. There is no real main villain or main league of villains, just heroes taking out basic criminals, or aliens sometimes working under a slightly more sinister leader. All in all HF is just digging its own grave, its only a matter of time before the theme ends. To be honest I'm surprised it hasn't already.

If you think the 2011 Hero Factory sets are better than later series, I have a feeling you're ignoring the most important aspect of any building toy: the way the sets are actually built. Regardless of what you think of the looks, the 2012, 2013, and 2014 sets are much more imaginative designs than the 2011 sets, or for that matter, the 2010 sets.The 1.0 heroes were pitiful, with fewer than 20 parts, all of which were extremely specialized. The builds were incredibly formulaic and there was really very little "building" whatsoever. The villains weren't a whole lot better — only the larger sets like Von Nebula, Rotor, Drop Ship, and Furno Bike offered a lot of complexity or diversity in construction. The 2.0 and 3.0 heroes gave the heroes much more unique armor and weapons and about 30 pieces each. The Savage Planet sets also gave us the first non-humanoid villains, as well as the largest and most complex humanoid figure in the entire theme.The Breakout series in 2012 took the previous year's building system even further. Heroes were given even more diverse armor and equipment, and even varied in size. Villains likewise varied in size, and the villain designs were more creative and diverse than ever before. The heroes and villains in 2013 were a bit more formulaic than those from 2012 (most of the Brain Attack heroes followed very similar design considerations, and all but one of the villains were humanoid in design), but they had creative and complex weapon designs and implemented a fair number of action features.This year's Invasion from Below battle machine sets are some of the most imaginative and complex sets to date. The mid-size sets have more pieces than any BIONICLE canister sets or mid-size Hero Factory sets ever released previously. The beasts are not quite as imaginative, with most having fairly run-of-the-mill humanoid builds, but they still have a lot of variety.If you want action figures, then I can see why you might not like certain Hero Factory sets, because in that case the only thing that matters is how the sets look. But if you want a building toy, I can't see how anybody would think the original Hero Factory sets hold a candle to more recent sets. The heroes in particular were pathetic even by BIONICLE standards.

The designs of the original HF sets look more like bionicle than any other year. I always likened the hero design to 2008 matoran and agori design. The original villains retained a lot of bionicle parts as well. There were a few new parts, but most of the parts were using bionicle pieces that everyone knew and loved. Also there were battle vehicles. The sets that came after had poor stability and fell apart way more easily than they should have, the weapons lacked originality and began to look more and more like weapons from your average fps video game with the occasional sword thrown into the mix. I will say that HF pieces are made of a tougher plastic and crack less often. The only weapon that was somewhat cool were the energy shields from breakout. Don't even get me started on HFs cheap exo-force knock-off that came out this year. They look like lego attempting to merge constraction (a theme which has always been diverse) with lego system. The only neat aspect is the new HF minifigures which are significantly better than the bionicle ones in design and posability. You are right in saying that HF has been innovative with some designs, but an innovative idea is not the same as a good one. Most of the new designs (except for the exo-force knock-off) were legos attempt at trying something new. These new designs were pretty poor ones though. Believe me I tried being open-minded about the new theme, but lego literally took all the good stuff about the constraction theme and threw it out the window with HF. Legos well-intentioned efforts to start anew, involved throwing out everything good about the previous constraction lines.

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POWER TO THE FANS
LETS TAKE BACK BZP FROM THE HERO FACTORY FANBOYS
STOP THIS POINTLESS CENSORSHIP AND SHEATHE THE BAN HAMMERS
BRING BACK THE FRIENDLY AND INFORMATIVE BZP
SUPPORT TTV AND GET ON THE HYPE TRAIN

BIONICLE 2015 BIONICLE 2015 BIONICLE 2015 BIONICLE 2015 BIONICLE 2015 BIONICLE 2015 BIONICLE 2015

#48 Online TBK

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Posted Apr 10 2014 - 01:58 AM

I don't necessarily hate it, but I do hold a little disdain for it, and primarily for one reason:

 

The ridiculously shallow story. Then again, I suppose that this line was aimed at a young age group... but so was Bionicle. And honestly, I think something with a deep, mysterious world of a story like Bionicle's would stir imaginations far more effectively than Hero Factory's simple plot of fighting bad guys that have no solid motive in particular.

 

Plus, I'm jealous over HF immediately getting its own ongoing TV show. Wouldn't have Bionicle's story have made it infinitely better? :P


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#49 Offline Aanchir

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Posted Apr 10 2014 - 11:08 AM

I don't necessarily hate it, but I do hold a little disdain for it, and primarily for one reason:
 
The ridiculously shallow story. Then again, I suppose that this line was aimed at a young age group... but so was Bionicle. And honestly, I think something with a deep, mysterious world of a story like Bionicle's would stir imaginations far more effectively than Hero Factory's simple plot of fighting bad guys that have no solid motive in particular.
 
Plus, I'm jealous over HF immediately getting its own ongoing TV show. Wouldn't have Bionicle's story have made it infinitely better? :P

As much as I like Hero Factory... thank you for not falling into the trap of thinking the differences between Hero Factory and BIONICLE can be explained as the themes targeting different age ranges. It bothers me so much when I see people lose sight of that, which often happens in discussion of how BIONICLE can or should come back. BIONICLE wasn't special because it was dark or edgy or violent. It was special because it was an epic, ambitious saga with a powerful sense of mystery, adventure, and wonder. It had a deep mythology that held it together, and an ever-expanding storyline in which the whole was greater than the sum of its parts.

I don't know how well BIONICLE's story would have translated to TV. Maybe if it were brought back it could be re-imagined in a form that would translate better to TV, but the BIONICLE story as it was didn't exactly break up into even, episodic chunks with a defining theme or lesson for each one. Even the comics often ended on cliffhangers, rather than bringing stories to their resolution on an issue-by-issue basis. Hero Factory translates a bit better to TV because it is episodic by nature, although the writers for the TV series haven't done nearly as good a job with it as the writers for LEGO Ninjago or the BIONICLE movies.

I ought to mention, though, that most of Hero Factory's villains do have pretty solid motives. The exception was the unnamed villain in Brain Attack, who was really not very well-written at all.

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#50 Offline fishers64

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Posted Apr 10 2014 - 11:21 AM

I ought to mention, though, that most of Hero Factory's villains do have pretty solid motives. The exception was the unnamed villain in Brain Attack, who was really not very well-written at all.

I thought they were trying to create a sense of creepy mystery after the whole "downloading plans" thing after Breakout. But appears that, unlike Bionicle/Ninjago/Chima, there's no hint that the mystery is actually going to be resolved. 

 

This I find to be the most annoying thing about HF. Every time they try to introduce mystery, it's handled poorly, and they just move on from any good plot points that could make for a good story and just leave them unresolved. Argh. 


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#51 Offline Aanchir

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Posted Apr 10 2014 - 11:38 AM

I ought to mention, though, that most of Hero Factory's villains do have pretty solid motives. The exception was the unnamed villain in Brain Attack, who was really not very well-written at all.

I thought they were trying to create a sense of creepy mystery after the whole "downloading plans" thing after Breakout. But appears that, unlike Bionicle/Ninjago/Chima, there's no hint that the mystery is actually going to be resolved. 
 
This I find to be the most annoying thing about HF. Every time they try to introduce mystery, it's handled poorly, and they just move on from any good plot points that could make for a good story and just leave them unresolved. Argh.

I can agree there. It frustrates me as well. Particularly the "Breakout" conclusion, which genuinely seemed like it was leading to something (the stinger at the end of the next couple episodes are pretty typical "the end... or is it?" fare, but that one seemed like it had some real substance to it).

I wonder if Adam Beechen, the new screenwriter who wrote "Brain Attack" and "Invasion from Below" has anything to do with the number of cliffhangers that have gone unresolved since 2012. I am not very fond of his writing in those episodes, which confuses me greatly since he wrote some FANTASTIC episodes for other shows I used to watch in my childhood like Teen Titans, Static Shock, and Jackie Chan Adventures. Then again, I know at least one of his Jackie Chan Adventures episodes ended with a similar unexplained stinger to the two Hero Factory episodes he wrote... only then, it was played for laughs and didn't really have any meaningful impact on the ongoing storyline.

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#52 Offline Tattorack

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Posted Apr 10 2014 - 11:47 AM

Of course I hate HeroFactory first (but not foremost) because it replaced Bionicle.

But I was open to and willing to give it a chance... then I saw the first episode... I thought "ok, this has potential".

I didn't come near episodes for a while, then I decided "well alright, lets look at one again" and it wasn't better... actually more of the same with cheesier bad guys.

Now I decided to look at it for one last time and I saw it had gone even worse and even more shallow. The Creeps from the Deep (oops <_< ) episode felt litteraly like an extended commercial.

So it didn't contain any cheesy bad guys, or bad guys at all actually, but the episode celebrated the genocide of an entire hostile-when-in-danger species!

 

The building mechanic of HeroFactory is in my opinion lazy. Very lazy.

I was in Denmark in a Lego shop and they had these "build your own hero" bins next to the "build a costum minifig" bins.

So I decided to try some... and got frustrated that after 20 minutes the only thing I'd managed to build with the HeroFactory parts was only... more HeroFactory!

The whole bloody thing basically is sticking armour in differant combos to a skeleton, and without actually using any Bionicle parts (not even other technic parts because there was nowhere to put those) I would not be able to.. say for instance, make a mechanical looking tiger, or a walkertank-like thing, or just a totally unique warrior.


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#53 Offline Aanchir

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Posted Apr 10 2014 - 01:15 PM

The building mechanic of HeroFactory is in my opinion lazy. Very lazy.
I was in Denmark in a Lego shop and they had these "build your own hero" bins next to the "build a costum minifig" bins.
So I decided to try some... and got frustrated that after 20 minutes the only thing I'd managed to build with the HeroFactory parts was only... more HeroFactory!
The whole bloody thing basically is sticking armour in differant combos to a skeleton, and without actually using any Bionicle parts (not even other technic parts because there was nowhere to put those) I would not be able to.. say for instance, make a mechanical looking tiger, or a walkertank-like thing, or just a totally unique warrior.

There are actually lots of ways to integrate Technic with Hero Factory. Pretty much all of the larger torso and limb beams have Technic pin holes, and Y-joints with Technic axle holes are still around as an easy way to attach axles to a part with any sort of ball joint. Many of the most recent Hero Factory sets use Technic quite well, like Dragon Bolt with its flapping-wings function or Evo XL Machine with its gear-driven waist articulation.

And of course the theme uses very few BIONICLE parts, because BIONICLE has been gone for years. You didn't see 2006 BIONICLE sets using lots of Throwbots and Roboriders parts, did you? There were still a few, of course, like this and this. Similarly, plenty of Hero Factory sets have continued to use the clawed Piraka foot up until this year, when some new clawed foot pieces were introduced.

You can still make tons of things with LEGO Hero Factory parts. Here's a walker and container handler I built with the pieces of a single $15 Hero Factory set, here's a walking tank my brother built with a single $25 Hero Factory set (note the heavy use of Technic), and here's a crab-shaped mech we created by combining the pieces of both sets. Venturing into sillier territory, here's Unikitty's Chicken Walker.

Creatures? You can make those, too, like my Geiger Tiger, dog, or Mantis Drone. In fact, I have lots of fun trying to build creatures from Hero Factory parts — perhaps even more fun than I've ever had trying to do the same with BIONICLE, though that's not to say I was never successful building a BIONICLE creature MOC.

Totally unique warriors? I've made several. One of my first was 4-ward 4-ce, which I created for a raffle on Eurobricks forums. Totally unique, but not terribly complex and ambitious. Last year I really buckled down when it came to creating Hero Factory MOCs. Check out Caitlyn Gauss XL, my largest model, Kit Martello and Joey Falcione, female and male heroes with coordinated designs, and Koboldon, a monstrous mutant with a giant radioactive claw. On a smaller scale, there's Poison Dart, a female villain with a unique armor design, Triceratoid, a creature with an elaborate leg structure, and this hero my twin brother and I built (here mislabeled as Breez — I assumed it was a Breez revamp due to the color scheme, but he later told me that was not the case).

And let's not forget one of my favorite Hero Factory MOCs ever, this massive warrior displayed at LEGO World Copenhagen last year. You might be familiar with its creator. His name is Christoffer Raundahl. He has been designing constraction sets since Slizer/Throwbots and was the lead BIONICLE set designer. He's responsible for the original Tahu and Kopaka sets as well as later sets like the Bahrag and Toa Mahri. And he's one of the three inventors of the new Hero Factory building system. So it's no surprise he's keenly aware of its creative potential. I reverse-engineered this model on LDD to the best of my ability, and you can download it here. Impressively, it uses Technic even more sparingly than many Hero Factory sets.

The Hero Factory building system can definitely call for a different sort of thinking than BIONICLE building, but there are no grounds whatsoever for saying it is lazy. If anything, I would say it's intuitive. It's true that it's mostly based on a simple process of snapping parts together, but considering that pretty much any part can snap to any other part, that's not what I would call a limitation. Perhaps if you looked more carefully at the techniques used in Hero Factory sets and MOCs, set aside your preconceived notions about BIONICLE parts and building styles, and spent more than 20 minutes freely experimenting with the building system, you would be able to get the hang of it. The Hero Factory group on Flickr might be worth a look. There are lots of great MOCs on display there — both ones that use the Hero Factory building system almost exclusively, and ones that use Hero Factory and BIONICLE building styles in tandem.

Edited by Aanchir: Rachira of Time, Apr 10 2014 - 01:16 PM.

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#54 Online Azani

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Posted Apr 10 2014 - 04:03 PM

And of course the theme uses very few BIONICLE parts, because BIONICLE has been gone for years. You didn't see 2006 BIONICLE sets using lots of Throwbots and Roboriders parts, did you? There were still a few, of course, like this and this.


In fact, unless I'm mistaken, both of those pieces originated in slizer sets, therefore predating most Bionicle pieces.

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I can also be found under the username Azani on SolisMagna.com and the BioMediaProject forums. Check out SolisMagna.com, as it is exactly what we need to maintain interest in Bionicle. Also, I highly recommend [url=http://www.bzpower.com/board/topic/11507-bionicle-nova-orbis-new-world/Nova Orbis, an awesome comic series by NickonAquaMagna.

Check out the script for Mysterious Island, an adaption/reboot of the 2001 Bionicle story which I am writing. It's also a musical.

 
Bionicle is returning in 2015!

#55 Offline Aanchir

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Posted Apr 10 2014 - 04:21 PM

And of course the theme uses very few BIONICLE parts, because BIONICLE has been gone for years. You didn't see 2006 BIONICLE sets using lots of Throwbots and Roboriders parts, did you? There were still a few, of course, like this and this.


In fact, unless I'm mistaken, both of those pieces originated in slizer sets, therefore predating most Bionicle pieces.

That was my point. I was saying that those were some of the only Slizer/Throwbots pieces to still be in use in BIONICLE by 2006, as a point of comparison for how few BIONICLE parts are used in Hero Factory. And BIONICLE had even less reason to stop using many Slizer/Throwbots parts than Hero Factory did with BIONICLE parts, considering that the building system had not been revolutionized in quite the same way between those two themes. You can't really fault a theme for sticking to parts that are well-suited to its building style.

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#56 Offline Tattorack

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Posted Apr 10 2014 - 05:21 PM

There are actually lots of ways to integrate Technic with Hero Factory. Pretty much all of the larger torso and limb beams have Technic pin holes, and Y-joints with Technic axle holes are still around as an easy way to attach axles to a part with any sort of ball joint. Many of the most recent Hero Factory sets use Technic quite well, like Dragon Bolt with its flapping-wings function or Evo XL Machine with its gear-driven waist articulation.

 

Compaire to Bionicle? Not impressed.

Slyzers didn't have good costumizability, then they too a step forward and we had Bionicle. Now they took a step back again.

 

You can still make tons of things with LEGO Hero Factory parts. Here's a walker and container handler I built with the pieces of a single $15 Hero Factory set, here's a walking tank my brother built with a single $25 Hero Factory set (note the heavy use of Technic), and here's a crab-shaped mech we created by combining the pieces of both sets. Venturing into sillier territory, here's Unikitty's Chicken Walker.

 

Not seeing any costum limbs...

 

Creatures? You can make those, too, like my Geiger Tiger, dog, or Mantis Drone. In fact, I have lots of fun trying to build creatures from Hero Factory parts — perhaps even more fun than I've ever had trying to do the same with BIONICLE, though that's not to say I was never successful building a BIONICLE creature MOC.

 

Again, beside the point.

I cannot make a costum body with technic bits when I buy a bunch of HF because they hardly come along with any. Only titans come around with a few more than usual.

Yet in Bionicle I buy a Titan set and its largely made out of all sorts of technics. A Toa had its own fair share of technics.

 

Totally unique warriors? I've made several. One of my first was 4-ward 4-ce, which I created for a raffle on Eurobricks forums. Totally unique, but not terribly complex and ambitious. Last year I really buckled down when it came to creating Hero Factory MOCs. Check out Caitlyn Gauss XL, my largest model, Kit Martello and Joey Falcione, female and male heroes with coordinated designs, and Koboldon, a monstrous mutant with a giant radioactive claw. On a smaller scale, there's Poison Dart, a female villain with a unique armor design, Triceratoid, a creature with an elaborate leg structure, and this hero my twin brother and I built (here mislabeled as Breez — I assumed it was a Breez revamp due to the color scheme, but he later told me that was not the case).

 

Nope, none of them (with the exception of Gauss XL) are unique.

They don't have costum legs (legs made from parts put together in a unique designe that doesn't come prefabricated out of the box) just use the HF heads and helmets as the heads and generally all use the same skeleton as a normal HF would (not like a body made from technics to make a body shape that already exsists prefabricated).

 

6 year olds cannot easily make something out of a whole bunch of technics without making a mess off things, so Lego has toned it down so much that everything just basically clicks together without the need of any real figuring out, and thus also limiting the amount of possible outcomes (example, the upper legs of the Giant Warrior from Cph look almost the same as the ones from you giant). For me that's bringing it down to the stupid level, for my 7 year old brother that is bringing it down to the boring level.


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#57 Offline Aanchir

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Posted Apr 10 2014 - 06:32 PM

You can still make tons of things with LEGO Hero Factory parts. Here's a walker and container handler I built with the pieces of a single $15 Hero Factory set, here's a walking tank my brother built with a single $25 Hero Factory set (note the heavy use of Technic), and here's a crab-shaped mech we created by combining the pieces of both sets. Venturing into sillier territory, here's Unikitty's Chicken Walker.

Not seeing any costum limbs...

Most of my BIONICLE MOCs didn't have custom limbs either. Custom limbs are definitely possible with Hero Factory (as Caitlyn Gauss XL demonstrates), but a MOC doesn't need custom limbs to be creative, especially a MOC as small as many of these. Get over it.
 

Creatures? You can make those, too, like my Geiger Tiger, dog, or Mantis Drone. In fact, I have lots of fun trying to build creatures from Hero Factory parts — perhaps even more fun than I've ever had trying to do the same with BIONICLE, though that's not to say I was never successful building a BIONICLE creature MOC.

Again, beside the point.
I cannot make a costum body with technic bits when I buy a bunch of HF because they hardly come along with any. Only titans come around with a few more than usual.
Yet in Bionicle I buy a Titan set and its largely made out of all sorts of technics. A Toa had its own fair share of technics.

So BIONICLE was more geared towards your building style than Hero Factory. That doesn't mean that BIONICLE was better, or that Hero Factory design is "lazy". There are plenty of things I can do with Hero Factory parts that I couldn't do anywhere near as efficiently with BIONICLE parts. With the Hero Factory building system, you don't need a lot of "Technic bits" to build a creative model, so a lack of Technic pieces isn't really a serious limitation.

With that said, some small and medium-size Hero Factory sets have PLENTY of Technic, like last year's Scarox, Bruizer, and Stormer or this year's Rocka Stealth Machine, Bulk Drill Machine, and Breez Flea Machine. So don't base your criticism on a flawed assumption that all Hero Factory sets are just shells slapped on top of a skeleton.

Totally unique warriors? I've made several. One of my first was 4-ward 4-ce, which I created for a raffle on Eurobricks forums. Totally unique, but not terribly complex and ambitious. Last year I really buckled down when it came to creating Hero Factory MOCs. Check out Caitlyn Gauss XL, my largest model, Kit Martello and Joey Falcione, female and male heroes with coordinated designs, and Koboldon, a monstrous mutant with a giant radioactive claw. On a smaller scale, there's Poison Dart, a female villain with a unique armor design, Triceratoid, a creature with an elaborate leg structure, and this hero my twin brother and I built (here mislabeled as Breez — I assumed it was a Breez revamp due to the color scheme, but he later told me that was not the case).

Nope, none of them (with the exception of Gauss XL) are unique.
They don't have costum legs (legs made from parts put together in a unique designe that doesn't come prefabricated out of the box) just use the HF heads and helmets as the heads and generally all use the same skeleton as a normal HF would (not like a body made from technics to make a body shape that already exsists prefabricated).


Actually, Triceratoid does use a custom leg design (or semi-custom at any rate — it was never used in a set, but a similar design was used for this combi model). But again, custom isn't everything. Even when I was a BIONICLE builder I didn't waste time coming up with a "custom" Technic solution when there was a simpler solution that was every bit as elegant. Furthermore, even most small and medium BIONICLE sets didn't include "custom" legs and bodies, or all of the parts you'd need to make them.

6 year olds cannot easily make something out of a whole bunch of technics without making a mess off things, so Lego has toned it down so much that everything just basically clicks together without the need of any real figuring out, and thus also limiting the amount of possible outcomes (example, the upper legs of the Giant Warrior from Cph look almost the same as the ones from you giant). For me that's bringing it down to the stupid level, for my 7 year old brother that is bringing it down to the boring level.

Simplifying the building process doesn't just help six-year-olds. It helps everyone. It's an example of "universal design", kind of like how entry ramps built to accommodate disabled people can be used by anyone.

And furthermore, the amount of possible outcomes has not been limited at all. That's an assumption on your part and it has no basis in fact. Something to note is that there were more "non-custom" solutions with Hero Factory right from the start of the new building system than there were with BIONICLE. Back in the days of BIONICLE, more designs would need to be custom to stand out because "non-custom" solutions were fairly limited. You couldn't use a torso shell like this or this on a figure's shoulder or arm without some level of Technic-based customization. You couldn't simply decide to attach a shell like this to the side of a beam like this — only the front and back. And you CERTAINLY couldn't attach either of those shells to an arm or leg like this, this, or this without adding some kind of Technic in between (and the result still wouldn't be very streamlined).

With Hero Factory, pretty much ANY shell can be attached to ANY beam in ANY configuration, without any need to complicate things with a lot of added Technic connectors. When "custom" is defined as "doing something differently than it's done in the sets", then it should be no surprise that Hero Factory (which allows for loads and loads of creative armor arrangements even with "small-set-approved" techniques) has more "uncustom" solutions than BIONICLE (which allowed for far fewer, and took many years of new pieces to come up with even as many "uncustom" solutions as it eventually allowed). And if you do want to add things via Technic, there's still no shortage of Technic connection points on the larger beams like this one (which is more or less the size of a Toa Metru lower leg). Not to mention parts like this or the classic BIONICLE "single ball joint" that let you attach additional Hero Factory shells to other parts via a Technic connection.

Caitlyn Gauss uses those upper legs not because there weren't any alternatives, but because they were the best upper legs I could find for that particular task. I have since come up with a new upper leg design that is entirely my own creation, but haven't managed to finish a MOC using that design (it's not well-suited to Caitlyn Gauss's design, though it is similar in scale).

All in all, you really aren't in any position to criticize the Hero Factory building system for a lack of possibilities when you've barely even scratched the surface of the possibilities it offers. I can't imagine you came up with a bunch of brilliant, "custom" designs within your first twenty minutes of playing with a BIONICLE set.

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#58 Offline Matoro Lives

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Posted Apr 12 2014 - 12:52 AM

You can still make tons of things with LEGO Hero Factory parts. Here's a walker and container handler I built with the pieces of a single $15 Hero Factory set, here's a walking tank my brother built with a single $25 Hero Factory set (note the heavy use of Technic), and here's a crab-shaped mech we created by combining the pieces of both sets. Venturing into sillier territory, here's Unikitty's Chicken Walker.

Not seeing any costum limbs...
Most of my BIONICLE MOCs didn't have custom limbs either. Custom limbs are definitely possible with Hero Factory (as Caitlyn Gauss XL demonstrates), but a MOC doesn't need custom limbs to be creative, especially a MOC as small as many of these. Get over it. 

Creatures? You can make those, too, like my Geiger Tiger, dog, or Mantis Drone. In fact, I have lots of fun trying to build creatures from Hero Factory parts — perhaps even more fun than I've ever had trying to do the same with BIONICLE, though that's not to say I was never successful building a BIONICLE creature MOC.

Again, beside the point.I cannot make a costum body with technic bits when I buy a bunch of HF because they hardly come along with any. Only titans come around with a few more than usual.Yet in Bionicle I buy a Titan set and its largely made out of all sorts of technics. A Toa had its own fair share of technics.
So BIONICLE was more geared towards your building style than Hero Factory. That doesn't mean that BIONICLE was better, or that Hero Factory design is "lazy". There are plenty of things I can do with Hero Factory parts that I couldn't do anywhere near as efficiently with BIONICLE parts. With the Hero Factory building system, you don't need a lot of "Technic bits" to build a creative model, so a lack of Technic pieces isn't really a serious limitation.With that said, some small and medium-size Hero Factory sets have PLENTY of Technic, like last year's Scarox, Bruizer, and Stormer or this year's Rocka Stealth Machine, Bulk Drill Machine, and Breez Flea Machine. So don't base your criticism on a flawed assumption that all Hero Factory sets are just shells slapped on top of a skeleton.

Totally unique warriors? I've made several. One of my first was 4-ward 4-ce, which I created for a raffle on Eurobricks forums. Totally unique, but not terribly complex and ambitious. Last year I really buckled down when it came to creating Hero Factory MOCs. Check out Caitlyn Gauss XL, my largest model, Kit Martello and Joey Falcione, female and male heroes with coordinated designs, and Koboldon, a monstrous mutant with a giant radioactive claw. On a smaller scale, there's Poison Dart, a female villain with a unique armor design, Triceratoid, a creature with an elaborate leg structure, and this hero my twin brother and I built (here mislabeled as Breez — I assumed it was a Breez revamp due to the color scheme, but he later told me that was not the case).

Nope, none of them (with the exception of Gauss XL) are unique.They don't have costum legs (legs made from parts put together in a unique designe that doesn't come prefabricated out of the box) just use the HF heads and helmets as the heads and generally all use the same skeleton as a normal HF would (not like a body made from technics to make a body shape that already exsists prefabricated).
Actually, Triceratoid does use a custom leg design (or semi-custom at any rate — it was never used in a set, but a similar design was used for this combi model). But again, custom isn't everything. Even when I was a BIONICLE builder I didn't waste time coming up with a "custom" Technic solution when there was a simpler solution that was every bit as elegant. Furthermore, even most small and medium BIONICLE sets didn't include "custom" legs and bodies, or all of the parts you'd need to make them.

6 year olds cannot easily make something out of a whole bunch of technics without making a mess off things, so Lego has toned it down so much that everything just basically clicks together without the need of any real figuring out, and thus also limiting the amount of possible outcomes (example, the upper legs of the Giant Warrior from Cph look almost the same as the ones from you giant). For me that's bringing it down to the stupid level, for my 7 year old brother that is bringing it down to the boring level.

Simplifying the building process doesn't just help six-year-olds. It helps everyone. It's an example of "universal design", kind of like how entry ramps built to accommodate disabled people can be used by anyone.And furthermore, the amount of possible outcomes has not been limited at all. That's an assumption on your part and it has no basis in fact. Something to note is that there were more "non-custom" solutions with Hero Factory right from the start of the new building system than there were with BIONICLE. Back in the days of BIONICLE, more designs would need to be custom to stand out because "non-custom" solutions were fairly limited. You couldn't use a torso shell like this or this on a figure's shoulder or arm without some level of Technic-based customization. You couldn't simply decide to attach a shell like this to the side of a beam like this — only the front and back. And you CERTAINLY couldn't attach either of those shells to an arm or leg like this, this, or this without adding some kind of Technic in between (and the result still wouldn't be very streamlined).With Hero Factory, pretty much ANY shell can be attached to ANY beam in ANY configuration, without any need to complicate things with a lot of added Technic connectors. When "custom" is defined as "doing something differently than it's done in the sets", then it should be no surprise that Hero Factory (which allows for loads and loads of creative armor arrangements even with "small-set-approved" techniques) has more "uncustom" solutions than BIONICLE (which allowed for far fewer, and took many years of new pieces to come up with even as many "uncustom" solutions as it eventually allowed). And if you do want to add things via Technic, there's still no shortage of Technic connection points on the larger beams like this one (which is more or less the size of a Toa Metru lower leg). Not to mention parts like this or the classic BIONICLE "single ball joint" that let you attach additional Hero Factory shells to other parts via a Technic connection.Caitlyn Gauss uses those upper legs not because there weren't any alternatives, but because they were the best upper legs I could find for that particular task. I have since come up with a new upper leg design that is entirely my own creation, but haven't managed to finish a MOC using that design (it's not well-suited to Caitlyn Gauss's design, though it is similar in scale).All in all, you really aren't in any position to criticize the Hero Factory building system for a lack of possibilities when you've barely even scratched the surface of the possibilities it offers. I can't imagine you came up with a bunch of brilliant, "custom" designs within your first twenty minutes of playing with a BIONICLE set.

I have built w/ HF sets and found they follow a basic design. First a skeleton which is identical in almost every set except the xl ones. Next, appallingly simple armor pieces which vary in size a little bit and in color depending on the set. Finally individual weapons that are not creative, but they do give the sets a uniqueness. It is virtually impossible to build a unique moc with HF parts. With bionicle, we were given the ability to make custom limbs relatively easily as demonstrated with many of the Dark Hunter MOCs from the Dark Hunters book. HF parts are incredibly uniform and lack the uniqueness that bionicle parts give MOCers. You can make MOCs with HF parts, but they never are very unique. Me and my friends have tinkered with HF sets from every year except this one and have failed to produce a decent MOC that doesn't look like a rearranged hero. We have produced unique MOCs using the villain sets from rise of the rookies and trial by fire however, but most of those sets used many bionicle parts.

I'm not quite sure why you are so defensive about the HF theme, when it clearly is failing. Back when bionicle ended I didn't set a very high personal standard to compare the next theme to. I did this because I knew bionicle would be a tough act to follow. It was after all legos 2nd most popular theme, and legos most popular non-liscensed theme. My expectation for hero factory was not that high, but what lego gave us was just pathetic. Lego essentially created the haters of HF. First they end an incredibly popular theme, next they follow it up with a theme that isn't even half as good. I didn't expect another theme as popular as bionicle, but lego could have at least tried to produce a good theme. Instead we get sloppy sets, sloppy story, and a corny tv show. That just about sums up the frustration most bionicle fans have. I'm not mad a lego for replacing bionicle (all good things must come to an end after all), I'm mad at lego for replacing it with garbage. I used to try and see the good in hero factory, but I've given up on trying since the theme has just gotten progressively worse.

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POWER TO THE FANS
LETS TAKE BACK BZP FROM THE HERO FACTORY FANBOYS
STOP THIS POINTLESS CENSORSHIP AND SHEATHE THE BAN HAMMERS
BRING BACK THE FRIENDLY AND INFORMATIVE BZP
SUPPORT TTV AND GET ON THE HYPE TRAIN

BIONICLE 2015 BIONICLE 2015 BIONICLE 2015 BIONICLE 2015 BIONICLE 2015 BIONICLE 2015 BIONICLE 2015

#59 Offline Tattorack

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Posted Apr 12 2014 - 04:01 AM

I have built w/ HF sets and found they follow a basic design. First a skeleton which is identical in almost every set except the xl ones. Next, appallingly simple armor pieces which vary in size a little bit and in color depending on the set. Finally individual weapons that are not creative, but they do give the sets a uniqueness. It is virtually impossible to build a unique moc with HF parts. With bionicle, we were given the ability to make custom limbs relatively easily as demonstrated with many of the Dark Hunter MOCs from the Dark Hunters book. HF parts are incredibly uniform and lack the uniqueness that bionicle parts give MOCers. You can make MOCs with HF parts, but they never are very unique. Me and my friends have tinkered with HF sets from every year except this one and have failed to produce a decent MOC that doesn't look like a rearranged hero. We have produced unique MOCs using the villain sets from rise of the rookies and trial by fire however, but most of those sets used many bionicle parts.

 

Thank you! Its what I've been trying to say the whole time.

Good to see I'm not the only one who has experianced it.

 

I'm not quite sure why you are so defensive about the HF theme, when it clearly is failing. Back when bionicle ended I didn't set a very high personal standard to compare the next theme to. I did this because I knew bionicle would be a tough act to follow. It was after all legos 2nd most popular theme, and legos most popular non-liscensed theme. My expectation for hero factory was not that high, but what lego gave us was just pathetic. Lego essentially created the haters of HF. First they end an incredibly popular theme, next they follow it up with a theme that isn't even half as good. I didn't expect another theme as popular as bionicle, but lego could have at least tried to produce a good theme. Instead we get sloppy sets, sloppy story, and a corny tv show. That just about sums up the frustration most bionicle fans have. I'm not mad a lego for replacing bionicle (all good things must come to an end after all), I'm mad at lego for replacing it with garbage. I used to try and see the good in hero factory, but I've given up on trying since the theme has just gotten progressively worse.

 

Me too. After all, all good things come to an end. And there I was hoping they'd have taken the best elements from Bionicle as example to set the standards for quality and story for the next technic figure set.

Well bummer to that....


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#60 Offline Aanchir

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Posted Apr 12 2014 - 09:37 AM

I have built w/ HF sets and found they follow a basic design. First a skeleton which is identical in almost every set except the xl ones. Next, appallingly simple armor pieces which vary in size a little bit and in color depending on the set. Finally individual weapons that are not creative, but they do give the sets a uniqueness. It is virtually impossible to build a unique moc with HF parts. With bionicle, we were given the ability to make custom limbs relatively easily as demonstrated with many of the Dark Hunter MOCs from the Dark Hunters book. HF parts are incredibly uniform and lack the uniqueness that bionicle parts give MOCers. You can make MOCs with HF parts, but they never are very unique. Me and my friends have tinkered with HF sets from every year except this one and have failed to produce a decent MOC that doesn't look like a rearranged hero. We have produced unique MOCs using the villain sets from rise of the rookies and trial by fire however, but most of those sets used many bionicle parts.


Skeletons of sets being similar doesn't mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things. Even BIONICLE wasn't as diverse or unique as people often make it out to be. Have you noticed pretty much every single canister set from 2004 to 2009 had its legs built exactly the same way, with only a few exceptions like Krika, Vamprah, and Gorast? Torso builds did vary over the years, but the same is true of Hero Factory. Raw-Jaw, Fangz, Jawblade, Thornraxx, Toxic Reapa, Bruizer, Frost Beast, and Furno Jet Machine are just some of the small and medium-size Hero Factory figures with unique torso builds. Most of these unique torso builds are fairly simple in design as well, without any need for specialized new pieces like Toa Mahri Kongu's chest plate to set them apart from traditional humanoids.

And your claim that it is virtually impossible to create a unique-looking MOC with Hero Factory pieces is flat-out wrong. I have done so, as have plenty of other builders.

I'm not quite sure why you are so defensive about the HF theme, when it clearly is failing. Back when bionicle ended I didn't set a very high personal standard to compare the next theme to. I did this because I knew bionicle would be a tough act to follow. It was after all legos 2nd most popular theme, and legos most popular non-liscensed theme. My expectation for hero factory was not that high, but what lego gave us was just pathetic. Lego essentially created the haters of HF. First they end an incredibly popular theme, next they follow it up with a theme that isn't even half as good. I didn't expect another theme as popular as bionicle, but lego could have at least tried to produce a good theme. Instead we get sloppy sets, sloppy story, and a corny tv show. That just about sums up the frustration most bionicle fans have. I'm not mad a lego for replacing bionicle (all good things must come to an end after all), I'm mad at lego for replacing it with garbage. I used to try and see the good in hero factory, but I've given up on trying since the theme has just gotten progressively worse.


I'm not quite sure why you are so cynical about the HF theme, when clearly it has been very successful. A four-and-a-half year lifespan is not a "failure". And even if Hero Factory doesn't continue next year (which is always a possibility), I have a feeling that its building system will be used and improved on for years to come. It is, at its core, an evolution of the building system used in BIONICLE, developed by some of the best and brightest minds from the BIONICLE set design team, including the BIONICLE theme's lead set designer. I defend the theme and its building system because I have experienced its advantages for myself, and many of the claims made against it (such as the ones about it being impossible to create unique MOCs from Hero Factory pieces) are simply untrue. If it had not been for this new building system, I would probably never have started collecting the Hero Factory theme (certainly I had very little interest in buying the 2010 sets, and never ended up getting any of them), but this building system revolutionized constraction building in a way that no individual development in the BIONICLE theme ever did.

And from my perspective, the theme hasn't gotten progressively worse. If anything, it's gotten better and better as the sets have become more complex and diverse. 2011 brought the heroes from being identical builds that were pitiful and overspecialized even by Agori standards to more diverse builds that had as much articulation as a Glatorian and similar heights and piece counts to a typical Toa Mata. 2012 made the set designs for heroes and villains alike less formulaic in terms of size, pieces, weapons, and color schemes. 2013 increased the piece counts of the sets even further and brought action features back to prominence, though it was probably the year of the most modest improvements in the grand scheme of things. And this year the sets have finally broken away from the need for about half of the figures each year to be fairly generic humanoids, since the sets are now divided into beasts and battle machines instead of heroes and villains. The medium-size sets this year have also managed to surpass all previous medium-size constraction sets, including BIONICLE canister sets, in both diversity and complexity. How are any of these things changes for the worse?

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#61 Offline Matoro Lives

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Posted Apr 13 2014 - 12:10 PM

I have built w/ HF sets and found they follow a basic design. First a skeleton which is identical in almost every set except the xl ones. Next, appallingly simple armor pieces which vary in size a little bit and in color depending on the set. Finally individual weapons that are not creative, but they do give the sets a uniqueness. It is virtually impossible to build a unique moc with HF parts. With bionicle, we were given the ability to make custom limbs relatively easily as demonstrated with many of the Dark Hunter MOCs from the Dark Hunters book. HF parts are incredibly uniform and lack the uniqueness that bionicle parts give MOCers. You can make MOCs with HF parts, but they never are very unique. Me and my friends have tinkered with HF sets from every year except this one and have failed to produce a decent MOC that doesn't look like a rearranged hero. We have produced unique MOCs using the villain sets from rise of the rookies and trial by fire however, but most of those sets used many bionicle parts.

Skeletons of sets being similar doesn't mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things. Even BIONICLE wasn't as diverse or unique as people often make it out to be. Have you noticed pretty much every single canister set from 2004 to 2009 had its legs built exactly the same way, with only a few exceptions like Krika, Vamprah, and Gorast? Torso builds did vary over the years, but the same is true of Hero Factory. Raw-Jaw, Fangz, Jawblade, Thornraxx, Toxic Reapa, Bruizer, Frost Beast, and Furno Jet Machine are just some of the small and medium-size Hero Factory figures with unique torso builds. Most of these unique torso builds are fairly simple in design as well, without any need for specialized new pieces like Toa Mahri Kongu's chest plate to set them apart from traditional humanoids.And your claim that it is virtually impossible to create a unique-looking MOC with Hero Factory pieces is flat-out wrong. I have done so, as have plenty of other builders.

. Yes, most of the bionicle sets had skeletons and limbs in the sets that were similar in design like hero factory, but the pieces used in bionicle limbs were more versatile and easier to build unique limbs on I'm not quite sure why you are so defensive about the HF theme, when it clearly is failing. Back when bionicle ended I didn't set a very high personal standard to compare the next theme to. I did this because I knew bionicle would be a tough act to follow. It was after all legos 2nd most popular theme, and legos most popular non-liscensed theme. My expectation for hero factory was not that high, but what lego gave us was just pathetic. Lego essentially created the haters of HF. First they end an incredibly popular theme, next they follow it up with a theme that isn't even half as good. I didn't expect another theme as popular as bionicle, but lego could have at least tried to produce a good theme. Instead we get sloppy sets, sloppy story, and a corny tv show. That just about sums up the frustration most bionicle fans have. I'm not mad a lego for replacing bionicle (all good things must come to an end after all), I'm mad at lego for replacing it with garbage. I used to try and see the good in hero factory, but I've given up on trying since the theme has just gotten progressively worse.

I'm not quite sure why you are so cynical about the HF theme, when clearly it has been very successful. A four-and-a-half year lifespan is not a "failure". And even if Hero Factory doesn't continue next year (which is always a possibility), I have a feeling that its building system will be used and improved on for years to come. It is, at its core, an evolution of the building system used in BIONICLE, developed by some of the best and brightest minds from the BIONICLE set design team, including the BIONICLE theme's lead set designer. I defend the theme and its building system because I have experienced its advantages for myself, and many of the claims made against it (such as the ones about it being impossible to create unique MOCs from Hero Factory pieces) are simply untrue. If it had not been for this new building system, I would probably never have started collecting the Hero Factory theme (certainly I had very little interest in buying the 2010 sets, and never ended up getting any of them), but this building system revolutionized constraction building in a way that no individual development in the BIONICLE theme ever did.And from my perspective, the theme hasn't gotten progressively worse. If anything, it's gotten better and better as the sets have become more complex and diverse. 2011 brought the heroes from being identical builds that were pitiful and overspecialized even by Agori standards to more diverse builds that had as much articulation as a Glatorian and similar heights and piece counts to a typical Toa Mata. 2012 made the set designs for heroes and villains alike less formulaic in terms of size, pieces, weapons, and color schemes. 2013 increased the piece counts of the sets even further and brought action features back to prominence, though it was probably the year of the most modest improvements in the grand scheme of things. And this year the sets have finally broken away from the need for about half of the figures each year to be fairly generic humanoids, since the sets are now divided into beasts and battle machines instead of heroes and villains. The medium-size sets this year have also managed to surpass all previous medium-size constraction sets, including BIONICLE canister sets, in both diversity and complexity. How are any of these things changes for the worse?

I have built w/ HF sets and found they follow a basic design. First a skeleton which is identical in almost every set except the xl ones. Next, appallingly simple armor pieces which vary in size a little bit and in color depending on the set. Finally individual weapons that are not creative, but they do give the sets a uniqueness. It is virtually impossible to build a unique moc with HF parts. With bionicle, we were given the ability to make custom limbs relatively easily as demonstrated with many of the Dark Hunter MOCs from the Dark Hunters book. HF parts are incredibly uniform and lack the uniqueness that bionicle parts give MOCers. You can make MOCs with HF parts, but they never are very unique. Me and my friends have tinkered with HF sets from every year except this one and have failed to produce a decent MOC that doesn't look like a rearranged hero. We have produced unique MOCs using the villain sets from rise of the rookies and trial by fire however, but most of those sets used many bionicle parts.

Skeletons of sets being similar doesn't mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things. Even BIONICLE wasn't as diverse or unique as people often make it out to be. Have you noticed pretty much every single canister set from 2004 to 2009 had its legs built exactly the same way, with only a few exceptions like Krika, Vamprah, and Gorast? Torso builds did vary over the years, but the same is true of Hero Factory. Raw-Jaw, Fangz, Jawblade, Thornraxx, Toxic Reapa, Bruizer, Frost Beast, and Furno Jet Machine are just some of the small and medium-size Hero Factory figures with unique torso builds. Most of these unique torso builds are fairly simple in design as well, without any need for specialized new pieces like Toa Mahri Kongu's chest plate to set them apart from traditional humanoids.And your claim that it is virtually impossible to create a unique-looking MOC with Hero Factory pieces is flat-out wrong. I have done so, as have plenty of other builders.

I'm not quite sure why you are so defensive about the HF theme, when it clearly is failing. Back when bionicle ended I didn't set a very high personal standard to compare the next theme to. I did this because I knew bionicle would be a tough act to follow. It was after all legos 2nd most popular theme, and legos most popular non-liscensed theme. My expectation for hero factory was not that high, but what lego gave us was just pathetic. Lego essentially created the haters of HF. First they end an incredibly popular theme, next they follow it up with a theme that isn't even half as good. I didn't expect another theme as popular as bionicle, but lego could have at least tried to produce a good theme. Instead we get sloppy sets, sloppy story, and a corny tv show. That just about sums up the frustration most bionicle fans have. I'm not mad a lego for replacing bionicle (all good things must come to an end after all), I'm mad at lego for replacing it with garbage. I used to try and see the good in hero factory, but I've given up on trying since the theme has just gotten progressively worse.

I'm not quite sure why you are so cynical about the HF theme, when clearly it has been very successful. A four-and-a-half year lifespan is not a "failure". And even if Hero Factory doesn't continue next year (which is always a possibility), I have a feeling that its building system will be used and improved on for years to come. It is, at its core, an evolution of the building system used in BIONICLE, developed by some of the best and brightest minds from the BIONICLE set design team, including the BIONICLE theme's lead set designer. I defend the theme and its building system because I have experienced its advantages for myself, and many of the claims made against it (such as the ones about it being impossible to create unique MOCs from Hero Factory pieces) are simply untrue. If it had not been for this new building system, I would probably never have started collecting the Hero Factory theme (certainly I had very little interest in buying the 2010 sets, and never ended up getting any of them), but this building system revolutionized constraction building in a way that no individual development in the BIONICLE theme ever did.And from my perspective, the theme hasn't gotten progressively worse. If anything, it's gotten better and better as the sets have become more complex and diverse. 2011 brought the heroes from being identical builds that were pitiful and overspecialized even by Agori standards to more diverse builds that had as much articulation as a Glatorian and similar heights and piece counts to a typical Toa Mata. 2012 made the set designs for heroes and villains alike less formulaic in terms of size, pieces, weapons, and color schemes. 2013 increased the piece counts of the sets even further and brought action features back to prominence, though it was probably the year of the most modest improvements in the grand scheme of things. And this year the sets have finally broken away from the need for about half of the figures each year to be fairly generic humanoids, since the sets are now divided into beasts and battle machines instead of heroes and villains. The medium-size sets this year have also managed to surpass all previous medium-size constraction sets, including BIONICLE canister sets, in both diversity and complexity. How are any of these things changes for the worse?

Yes, most bionicle sets had limbs and skeletons that were similar in design just like HF sets, but the bionicle limbs and torsos were much more versatile and the pieces used for them were much easier to build unique limbs and torsos out of. (Again, read the dark hunters book there are plenty of examples there). HF hero limbs all use the same pieces of armor and the design of the hero limbs and armor limit creative possibilities significantly. Many of the older HF villains (from 1.0 and 2.0) are quite easy to moc with, but they also use less specialized pieces and some of the older bionicle parts as well. The newer villains are beginning to copy the heroes in design. Although each villain maintains a unique appearance, most of the parts are designed after a similar concept to the hero limbs and skeletons. The only difference is that the armor and skeleton parts used are specialized to each villain. These parts still lack the versatility of bionicle parts, so they still limit the MOCing possibilities significantly. Let me rephrase my statement about ''it being virtually impossible to create a unique looking MOC out of HF pieces. HF MOCs can have a unique look, but they are never very creative or good-looking. Your pics demonstrated this. (No offense, you probably are a great builder. This is a piece design fault, not a builder fault).

As for your statement about HF being successful. Have you seen lego's sales report on the theme? The sales have been slightly below mediocre. Just because a theme has been around 4 years, does not make it successful. The reason the theme has been around as long as it has is because lego is trying to make the theme work and replicate the success of Bionicle (plus, with the switching around of so many writers, lego wanted more time to try and get a decent story going). The sales of the theme have gotten progressively worse with each year, which is why there is talk of it being cancelled next year. Lego cancelled the comics and has dropped the number of commercials for the theme significantly (I think they may have quit making commercials altogether, but don't quote me on it). They cancelled the book series as well, and the books were their best attempt at a decent story. Hero factory is a dying theme, with low sales, bad advertising, bad story, and badly designed sets. All you have to do is look at what lego has been doing behind-the-scenes with the theme.

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#62 Offline The Kumquat Alchemist

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Posted Apr 13 2014 - 04:36 PM

 

Yes, most bionicle sets had limbs and skeletons that were similar in design just like HF sets, but the bionicle limbs and torsos were much more versatile and the pieces used for them were much easier to build unique limbs and torsos out of. (Again, read the dark hunters book there are plenty of examples there).

 

 

I'm curious about your constant referencing of the Dark Hunters book; yes, many of the figures used BIONICLE parts to a great degree, but what held all those parts together? Technic. You seem so dismissive of HF for its lack of interesting set designs, and laud BIONICLE for its supposedly more versatile components, but you ignore that the unifying component of many of the best BIONICLE and Hero Factory sets are plain, boring Technic elements.

 

Now, ask yourself; is HF's building system inherently bad, or are you just disappointed by the lack of Technic components in sets? Because if not for the extensive use of Technic in larger sets, BIONICLE would have been miles worse than anything under the HF line; imagine a BIONICLE titan that completely lacked generic Technic elements other than the occasional pin and axle, and you'd end up with something similar to the ugly messes that are many of the earlier HF titans.

 

For example, look at the difference between the most Technic-heavy of BIONICLE titans and those that were combiners of canister-sets. More specifically, let's look at Krekka and Irnakk. Irnakk's a mess! Why? Because he's what happens when you use nothing but your lauded BIONICLE components for a titan. Now, look at Krekka. He uses a fair amount of BIONICLE armor and even a few limbs, but what makes him stand out is his extensive use of Technic. For the same reasons as Irnakk, many of Hero Factory's larger figures are lackluster; they don't incorporate enough well-placed Technic components and instead rely on re-using the same generic frames.

 

Now, inversely, look at some of LEGO's more Technic-heavy HF figures, such as Witch Doctor and Evo XL.

Both of these sets are miles above the simpler, more boring cookie-cutter HF figures because they have a good blend of Technic parts.

 

What point am I trying to make? That the HF building system has marvelous potential that isn't even close to being fully realized because LEGO has been stingy with the Technic components, and that BIONICLE's components would not have been praiseworthy without the generic Technic parts that held them together. Thankfully, LEGO has been introducing more Technic in recent IFB sets, especially the summer ones, much to their supplement. Even before IFB, those HF figures which stood out the most to me, like Frost Beast, were those that used Technic components in their construction.


Edited by The Kumquat Alchemist, Apr 13 2014 - 05:15 PM.

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#63 Offline fishers64

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Posted Apr 13 2014 - 04:48 PM

What point am I trying to make? Simply that the HF building system has marvelous potential that isn't even close to being fully realized because LEGO has been stingy with the Technic components, and that BIONICLE's components would not have been praiseworthy without the generic Technic parts that held them together. Thankfully, LEGO has been introducing more Technic in recent IFB sets, especially the summer ones, much to their supplement.

 

This. 

 

Although TBH I don't really care - when I got into HF I got a Speeda Demon set that was full of Technic, and rebelled and used Technic anyway. One problem I've found is that sometimes the HF parts don't have technic connectors, or if they do the ball joints tend to get in the way. 

 

Another solution would be to increase the scale of models. For example, I would heart working with like 50 HF torsos and 200 double-sockets, but it just would be too expensive for a set to have. 


Edited by fishers64, Apr 13 2014 - 04:49 PM.

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#64 Offline Aanchir

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Posted Apr 13 2014 - 06:13 PM

Yes, most bionicle sets had limbs and skeletons that were similar in design just like HF sets, but the bionicle limbs and torsos were much more versatile and the pieces used for them were much easier to build unique limbs and torsos out of. (Again, read the dark hunters book there are plenty of examples there). HF hero limbs all use the same pieces of armor and the design of the hero limbs and armor limit creative possibilities significantly. Many of the older HF villains (from 1.0 and 2.0) are quite easy to moc with, but they also use less specialized pieces and some of the older bionicle parts as well. The newer villains are beginning to copy the heroes in design. Although each villain maintains a unique appearance, most of the parts are designed after a similar concept to the hero limbs and skeletons. The only difference is that the armor and skeleton parts used are specialized to each villain. These parts still lack the versatility of bionicle parts, so they still limit the MOCing possibilities significantly. Let me rephrase my statement about ''it being virtually impossible to create a unique looking MOC out of HF pieces. HF MOCs can have a unique look, but they are never very creative or good-looking. Your pics demonstrated this. (No offense, you probably are a great builder. This is a piece design fault, not a builder fault).

I have read the Dark Hunters book, to be honest, and I'm surprised you keep pointing towards it. There are a lot of really unimpressive models there. The first fan-created model, Airwatcher, looks extremely shoddy. And plenty of them like Amphibax use designs that are not very "custom" at all. Ravager even rips its leg design almost entirely from the Nivawk set.

There are a handful of good models, like Ancient, and yes, they tend to use Technic very heavily, but that doesn't mean that ONLY a Technic-intensive, highly custom model can be good. The legs and arms on Charger are extremely simple, but they look a lot better than the ones on Airwatcher which are more unconventional. A similar level of complexity could easily be achieved with Hero Factory building styles, perhaps with some Technic integrated.

I still take issue with the fact that you feel Hero Factory MOCs are not creative or good-looking. There are plenty that are VERY creative, including some of mine as well as others like this one by Sparkytron. Creativity is not defined by how much "custom" Technic you work into a model. It's defined by what parts you use and what you do with them. Kit Martello's upper legs are not very complex, but they are creative. No set ever used that same combination of parts in any color, and no set took advantage of the compatibility of angles between the square shell detail on the hips and the Super Heroes chest plate which I used for the rump (which can be seen in this photo).

And as for "good looking", that is purely subjective. I won't deny that a lot of BIONICLE figures were good-looking. I still consider Brutaka and the 2008 Takanuva sets works of art. I was so creatively inspired by the high detail of BIONICLE part designs that I would create pages and pages of artwork based on the characters. However, I also think Hero Factory parts, with their smoother, more solid-looking textures, are good looking. Stylistic consistency was an important value in BIONICLE sets and MOCs for me, and I tried to accentuate that in my drawings whenever possible (sometimes it was a challenge with as many disparate textures and motifs as BIONICLE parts tended to incorporate!). In Hero Factory, almost all basic shells and beams are stylistically consistent by design, utilizing the same visual language as one another. The smoothness of Hero Factory part designs is a very different sort of look than the high detail of BIONICLE parts, which had all sorts of framework-like textures and mechanical details like pistons molded into the designs. But I think both are beautiful in their own way, and I quite enjoy drawing Hero Factory figures like Nex and Evo here.

Hero Factory models tend to look incredibly consistent with one another because they rely mostly on the same pool of basic parts. Perhaps this is what you are referring to when you feel like Hero Factory creations are not unique or not creative. But I think that even with a consistent visual language, a MOC can still look unique and creative as a whole, just as LEGO System creations that rely on basic bricks can look unique, creative, and beautiful even without advanced "custom" building techniques like SNOT (Studs Not On Top), high-detail "greebling", or Technic support structures.

There's another thing I ought to mention integrating Technic with Hero Factory is not nearly as difficult as you make it out to be. Perhaps a five-module beam will not have any Technic connections on it at all, but its single ball-joint connection is every bit as versatile as the single Technic pin hole on a similarly sized Toa Metru forearm. By attaching a Y-joint to that piece you add three Technic axle holes that can be used for all sorts of things. Also, any Hero Factory beam six modules or longer will have at least one Technic hole. A 7M beam will have two Technic connections, just like a similarly sized Toa Metru or Toa Inika lower leg. And there are plenty of ways to build off those connection points without the ball joint causing any problems.

Torso beams have even more connection points. A 5x6 torso beam of the sort used in XT4 has four Technic holes, including one running right through the center ball joint. A 7x9 or 9x9 torso beam has six Technic holes. In other words, exactly as many Technic holes as the 9x9x2 torso from the 2010 Hero Factory sets, plus four additional ball joints that can be coupled with a Y-joint to add even more connections. Do the ball joints get in the way? Certainly not as much as the elaborate pistons and other textures on the 2010 torso, or the elaborately molded armor of an Agori torso.

As for your statement about HF being successful. Have you seen lego's sales report on the theme? The sales have been slightly below mediocre. Just because a theme has been around 4 years, does not make it successful. The reason the theme has been around as long as it has is because lego is trying to make the theme work and replicate the success of Bionicle (plus, with the switching around of so many writers, lego wanted more time to try and get a decent story going). The sales of the theme have gotten progressively worse with each year, which is why there is talk of it being cancelled next year. Lego cancelled the comics and has dropped the number of commercials for the theme significantly (I think they may have quit making commercials altogether, but don't quote me on it). They cancelled the book series as well, and the books were their best attempt at a decent story. Hero factory is a dying theme, with low sales, bad advertising, bad story, and badly designed sets. All you have to do is look at what lego has been doing behind-the-scenes with the theme.[/i][/i]

I have not seen LEGO's sales reports on the theme, and neither have you. It is not mentioned at all in most of the LEGO Group's annual reports. Are you just making up these statistics from thin air? According to statements from actual LEGO representatives at Brickfair, Hero Factory sales have not been on par with themes like LEGO City, Star Wars, or Ninjago (nor were BIONICLE's in most years), but they have been more than successful enough to justify the theme's continued existence, which is more than could be said for BIONICLE towards the end. The LEGO Group would not keep a theme around with sales that were "barely above mediocre" if they thought they could fill the same shelf space with a newer and more successful theme. After all, successful LEGO themes like Monster Fighters, Power Miners, Atlantis, and Galaxy Squad are cycled out in favor of newer themes all the time.

Also, Hero Factory is not necessarily intended to "replicate the success of BIONICLE" (Ninjago would be a better example of that). With that said, BIONICLE's success is sometimes overstated. It was one of the LEGO Group's most successful themes back in 2001-2003, but that was back at a time when most of the LEGO Group's other themes were failing. Nowadays, the LEGO Group is riding an ever-expanding wave of success, and the success of themes like Hero Factory makes up only a small part of that.

I don't know what you mean by "The switching around of so many writers". Even during BIONICLE's lifespan, much of its creative team was not working on that theme exclusively. As an example, Christian Faber and Greg Farshtey, two creative minds that played essential roles in guiding the BIONICLE story from the beginning, were both involved with LEGO Exo-Force (20062008), so working on themes besides BIONICLE was nothing new to them. Also, development for both The LEGO Movie and LEGO Ninjago, some of the LEGO Group's most successful story-driven themes, began in 2008 before BIONICLE ended. While BIONICLE represented the LEGO Group's first major successes with an in-house storyline, Hero Factory was not their first time having to commit writers to other storylines by a longshot, and in fact plenty of story themes came and went in the aftermath of BIONICLE's runaway success in its first three years.

There has been talk of Hero Factory being cancelled "next year" since it began, to be honest. You are correct that the scale of its marketing has gotten smaller, and it's almost certainly past its peak. I do not harbor any illusions that it will last nine to ten years like BIONICLE did. But that's no guarantee that it's on the brink of cancellation. BIONICLE hit its peak sales in 2002 and managed to remain profitable for many more years. Ninjago saw a steep decline in sets, media, and marketing in 2013 and yet has eight episodes coming out this year and is coming back for a full season in 2015.

In general, I don't like to place bets on any theme's longevity, but the idea that Hero Factory might be ending next year is a very real possibility. Perhaps it will get one final sendoff wave after its last full year of sets, the way Exo-Force, Knights' Kingdom II, BIONICLE, Agents, Power Miners, Atlantis, and so many other themes have. Or perhaps it will disappear entirely after its last full year of sets. In either case, even if it does end next year, we have confirmation from an engineer at the LEGO Group that its building system, commonly referred to as the CCBS (Character and Creature Building System), is going to stick around in future constraction sets.

Furthermore, a theme ending is not the same as a theme failing. BIONICLE ended in 2010, but that doesn't mean it failed, even towards the end. It had a long and profitable life, and left a huge legacy that have affected many subsequent themes. The same is true of Hero Factory. If the creators thought even for a minute that it ought to be everything BIONICLE was, then they would have released Hero Factory chapter books and graphic novels in its very first year the way they did with Ninjago and Legends of Chima. But it was never meant to be that kind of epic, ever-expanding, decade-long saga. It had its own goals, and I think the most important of those have been met admirably, chief among those being the introduction of a revolutionary new constraction building system.

Edited by Aanchir: Rachira of Time, Apr 21 2014 - 09:24 AM.

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#65 Offline Matoro Lives

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Posted Apr 20 2014 - 07:48 PM

I still don't see how you can say hero factory is one of the best things to happen to lego constraction. A simple google search for hero factory mocs will get you, either a bunch of heroes with custom paint jobs or rearranged armor, or you will find mocs that are made from almost 100% bionicle and technic pieces with a hero core mounted on the chest. There is no real potential for expansion on the pieces you get with the HF set. All the moc limbs follow the same basic design, with almost no room for creativity as far as design is concerned. Sure, you can rearrange the armor from the heroes, but the moc will still follow the same basic design of the original set. The only HF sets that don't follow this annoying uniformity that lego is forcing on us are a few of the villains from waves 1 & 2, and Witch Doctor. The XL sets are somewhat less uniform, but they still follow the same basic idea, but with more custom parts, just like some of the newer villains. You say HF is even more creative than bionicle, I have yet to see a good moc that uses an original design (not one based off the set you get) that doesn't require the use of bionicle bodies with Hero cores mounted on the front. I want to see an original design, made from the pieces you get in only HF sets, that doesn't look like the original set, just rearranged. You have shown us pictures, and I am unimpressed. None of the design demonstrate the originality, or creativity that you could get by MOCing with bionicles. Hero Factory is stomping on the creative potential for constraction, and we all know that creativity is supposed to be one of lego's main goals. I conclude that HF sets lack creativity for GOOD original custom designs, and so far you have not demonstrated how HF is more creative than bionicle. Saying the HF is creative will not change my mind, demonstrating it's creativity will, and so far you have not demonstrated anything that matches the standard bionicle set, let alone surpasses that standard. When you can show me how HF is creative, let me know, but until then nothing you can say will change my mind. You can disagree with what I'm saying, but to me it just sounds like you're being a fanboy. This back and forth between us on the subject is pointless unless you bring something substantial to the table. Disagreeing with me does not prove your point.
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#66 Offline Lyichir

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Posted Apr 20 2014 - 08:02 PM

You can disagree with what I'm saying, but to me it just sounds like you're being a fanboy.


Funnily enough, I feel the same about you. My brother has already posted numerous MOCs with a wide variety of creative builds, and yet you say "I have yet to see a good moc that uses an original design (not one based off the set you get) that doesn't require the use of bionicle bodies with Hero cores mounted on the front" (a description that matches many of the posted MOCs). If you are going to continue to insist against all reason that there is no creative potential with Hero Factory, and evidence to the contrary won't change your mind no matter how much is presented, then you are the very definition of a "fanboy", and it's pointless to continue to try and sway your opinion. Hopefully that can be the end of that and future posters will stick to legitimate complaints.

Edited by Lyichir, Apr 20 2014 - 08:02 PM.

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#67 Offline Aanchir

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Posted Apr 21 2014 - 09:24 AM

I still don't see how you can say hero factory is one of the best things to happen to lego constraction. A simple google search for hero factory mocs will get you, either a bunch of heroes with custom paint jobs or rearranged armor, or you will find mocs that are made from almost 100% bionicle and technic pieces with a hero core mounted on the chest. There is no real potential for expansion on the pieces you get with the HF set. All the moc limbs follow the same basic design, with almost no room for creativity as far as design is concerned. Sure, you can rearrange the armor from the heroes, but the moc will still follow the same basic design of the original set. The only HF sets that don't follow this annoying uniformity that lego is forcing on us are a few of the villains from waves 1 & 2, and Witch Doctor. The XL sets are somewhat less uniform, but they still follow the same basic idea, but with more custom parts, just like some of the newer villains. You say HF is even more creative than bionicle, I have yet to see a good moc that uses an original design (not one based off the set you get) that doesn't require the use of bionicle bodies with Hero cores mounted on the front. I want to see an original design, made from the pieces you get in only HF sets, that doesn't look like the original set, just rearranged. You have shown us pictures, and I am unimpressed. None of the design demonstrate the originality, or creativity that you could get by MOCing with bionicles. Hero Factory is stomping on the creative potential for constraction, and we all know that creativity is supposed to be one of lego's main goals. I conclude that HF sets lack creativity for GOOD original custom designs, and so far you have not demonstrated how HF is more creative than bionicle. Saying the HF is creative will not change my mind, demonstrating it's creativity will, and so far you have not demonstrated anything that matches the standard bionicle set, let alone surpasses that standard. When you can show me how HF is creative, let me know, but until then nothing you can say will change my mind. You can disagree with what I'm saying, but to me it just sounds like you're being a fanboy. This back and forth between us on the subject is pointless unless you bring something substantial to the table. Disagreeing with me does not prove your point.


I have brought plenty of substantial reasoning and evidence to the table, and you have dismissed or ignored it. Disagreeing with me does not prove YOUR point either. Furthermore, you accuse me of "being a fanboy" simply because I am defending a building system that I have found from experience to be creatively liberating. What does that make you, a person who insists the building system is terrible and is committed to tearing down anyone who disagrees? Personally I don't know why anyone should hate a harmless building toy so much that the idea of other people enjoying it offends them.

I realize that I will never be able to convince you Hero Factory has creative potential. I have presented copious evidence, including my own MOCs and those of others, but for whatever reason none of those are "creative" by your standards. It reminds me of the way some BIONICLE-hating AFOLs will insist in spite of evidence to the contrary that BIONICLE figures all look the same, though it's equal parts ironic and disappointing to see a BIONICLE fan stoop to the same level.

I wonder which BIONICLE sets you might have considered unique, since if you hold those to the same inflated standards you do for Hero Factory sets, then none of the 2007 Toa Mahri or 2008 Toa Nuva can really be considered unique or creative. After all, they have fewer pieces and more repetitive builds than such sets as Furno Jet Machine, Rocka Stealth Machine, Breez Flea Machine, and Bulk Drill Machine. The 2007 and 2008 Toa were by your standards nothing more than "Toa with the armor rearranged," and all their legs, torsos, and arms followed more or less the same, repetitive designs. Of course, I loved these sets, but I don't see how they could have ever passed your "creativity test" when this year's mid-size HF sets, with their diverse and creative builds, do not.

I suppose it's a moot point, though. I hoped we could at least come to some sort of friendly disagreement, but evidently replying to my carefully-thought-out arguments and evidence in kind was too daunting a challenge for you, and instead you decided to go with petty name-calling and repeatedly "moving the goalposts". In any case, I have confidence that the creators of the HF building system know what they're doing, just as they did when they were designing for BIONICLE. And certainly the building system has served me well. It brought me back to constraction building and served as a versatile, inspiring platform for my own creations.

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#68 Offline tahu3.0

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Posted Apr 25 2014 - 01:00 PM

Actually the big reason that guys don't like hero factory is because it replaced Bionicle plus hero factory for mi it has a dumb plot its all about heroes like hey theirs a villain out then go and get him. and it has for me a dumb cartoon.        


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#69 Online Azani

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Posted Apr 25 2014 - 03:02 PM

Actually the big reason that guys don't like hero factory is because it replaced Bionicle plus hero factory for mi it has a dumb plot its all about heroes like hey theirs a villain out then go and get him. and it has for me a dumb cartoon.


As a fair warning, you might want to consider rephrasing your criticisms of Hero Factory; though I don't doubt that you meant well, you might offend a few fans of the series who are on these forums.

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I can also be found under the username Azani on SolisMagna.com and the BioMediaProject forums. Check out SolisMagna.com, as it is exactly what we need to maintain interest in Bionicle. Also, I highly recommend [url=http://www.bzpower.com/board/topic/11507-bionicle-nova-orbis-new-world/Nova Orbis, an awesome comic series by NickonAquaMagna.

Check out the script for Mysterious Island, an adaption/reboot of the 2001 Bionicle story which I am writing. It's also a musical.

 
Bionicle is returning in 2015!

#70 Offline Tattorack

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Posted Apr 25 2014 - 03:40 PM

 

Actually the big reason that guys don't like hero factory is because it replaced Bionicle plus hero factory for mi it has a dumb plot its all about heroes like hey theirs a villain out then go and get him. and it has for me a dumb cartoon.


As a fair warning, you might want to consider rephrasing your criticisms of Hero Factory; though I don't doubt that you meant well, you might offend a few fans of the series who are on these forums.

 

 

Apparently we already have by commenting on its lack of creativity...


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#71 Offline Aanchir

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Posted Apr 25 2014 - 04:09 PM

Frankly, I'm not offended by people not liking Hero Factory. Not everyone is going to enjoy the same thing. If I disagree, I'll share my opinions, because having a variety of opinions represented adds to the discussion.

I am slightly offended when I see people say things that manage to insult the work of all Hero Factory designers and MOCists, including myself. Just like I would be offended about seeing people say the same things about BIONICLE (and believe it or not, people DO say those sorts of things on other, less BIONICLE-centric sites like deviantART and Brickset). I like the Hero Factory building system better than the BIONICLE building system, but I recognize that BIONICLE was great for its time and was well-suited to certain building styles. That's not the same as saying BIONICLE sets and MOCs are creatively inferior to Hero Factory ones. Each theme's sets demonstrate a lot of variety, and some of them are more creative than others. Even moreso with MOCs, which range from small, set-like MOCs (which can, in some cases, have their own sort of elegance) to huge, elaborate custom models.

Everyone is free to criticize Hero Factory. In fact, this topic was created to invite that sort of criticism. Don't think for a minute that I think everyone should enjoy the same themes. But likewise, if people like me disagree with certain criticisms, they are free to say so. If I were to say those kinds of things about BIONICLE, wouldn't you also want to express your disagreement?

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#72 Offline MT Zehvor

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Posted Apr 25 2014 - 04:18 PM

It's the replacement for Bionicle, which puts it on bad terms already. After that, it's slightly lower quality than Bionicle.

 

-MT


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#73 Offline Lyichir

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Posted Apr 25 2014 - 06:30 PM

It's the replacement for Bionicle, which puts it on bad terms already. After that, it's slightly lower quality than Bionicle.
 
-MT


Could you clarify what you mean by "slightly lower quality"? Because I feel that's a bit vague, and to what degree I'd agree or disagree would depend on what exactly you were referring to. In terms of the sets and the building system, I'd say it's slightly higher quality, though opinions are almost certain to differ from person to person. In terms of the part quality, I'd think it's unquestionably higher (no more part breakage, at least not to the degree that you could rely on certain parts to eventually break through normal building and play). In terms of the story media, there's no "slight" about it—the Hero Factory TV show is insanely weak compared to the Bionicle movies (which themselves were pretty far from perfect), the comics have done little more than retell the stories of the TV episodes (without significant improvement, unless you prefer the more dynamic comic art to the fairly mediocre CGI of the show), and while the chapter books are, in my opinion, excellent, they're at best on-par with Bionicle's (and Bionicle's book series lasted a great deal longer and told a greater portion of the story). A qualitative assessment is subjective enough as it is, but that goes double when you don't clarify what exactly you're assessing.

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#74 Offline Terton

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Posted Apr 25 2014 - 07:37 PM

It's the replacement for Bionicle

 

How is this still a valid reason for disliking Hero Factory. Heck, how was it ever a valid reason.


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#75 Offline Pomegranate

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Posted Apr 25 2014 - 08:46 PM

 

It's the replacement for Bionicle

 

How is this still a valid reason for disliking Hero Factory. Heck, how was it ever a valid reason.

 

The same way that Bionicle sucked 'cause it was replacing Slizers&Co, obviously :P


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#76 Offline avmatoran

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Posted Apr 25 2014 - 09:07 PM

 

 

It's the replacement for Bionicle

 

How is this still a valid reason for disliking Hero Factory. Heck, how was it ever a valid reason.

 

The same way that Bionicle sucked 'cause it was replacing Slizers&Co, obviously :P

 

Thank you. I get annoyed at all that.

 

Honestly, I'm not a fan of the Hero Factory stories. I check in every year, see "Ooh, it's bug-thingies from underground. Nice.", then immediately go to the sets. The sets are the real draw. I enjoy seeing the creative combinations and connections of the parts. I personally cannot seem to come up with creative ways to build MOCs with the new system aside from swapping armor out, but I recognize the potential, and thus look at the sets and buy a few, so I can try to learn. Story wise, yeah. Hero Factory goes down the drain. Set wise, it's an awesome theme.


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#77 Online Azani

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Posted Apr 25 2014 - 10:48 PM

It's the replacement for Bionicle

 
How is this still a valid reason for disliking Hero Factory. Heck, how was it ever a valid reason.


Quite a few people were close fans of Bionicle, actually, and since Hero Factory was it's direct replacement, it makes a lot of sense that some people (myself included) wish that it could be discontinued in order to allow the start of a new constraction line similar to Bionicle.

Frankly, I'm not offended by people not liking Hero Factory. Not everyone is going to enjoy the same thing. If I disagree, I'll share my opinions, because having a variety of opinions represented adds to the discussion.

I am slightly offended when I see people say things that manage to insult the work of all Hero Factory designers and MOCists, including myself. Just like I would be offended about seeing people say the same things about BIONICLE (and believe it or not, people DO say those sorts of things on other, less BIONICLE-centric sites like deviantART and Brickset). I like the Hero Factory building system better than the BIONICLE building system, but I recognize that BIONICLE was great for its time and was well-suited to certain building styles. That's not the same as saying BIONICLE sets and MOCs are creatively inferior to Hero Factory ones. Each theme's sets demonstrate a lot of variety, and some of them are more creative than others. Even moreso with MOCs, which range from small, set-like MOCs (which can, in some cases, have their own sort of elegance) to huge, elaborate custom models.

Everyone is free to criticize Hero Factory. In fact, this topic was created to invite that sort of criticism. Don't think for a minute that I think everyone should enjoy the same themes. But likewise, if people like me disagree with certain criticisms, they are free to say so. If
I were to say those kinds of things about BIONICLE, wouldn't you also want to express your disagreement?


I was initially concerned that you or another HF fan might be offended by a reference to Hero Factory as "dumb", as well as a trivialization of the plot of said series. I'm glad to hear that that isn't the case, though.

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I can also be found under the username Azani on SolisMagna.com and the BioMediaProject forums. Check out SolisMagna.com, as it is exactly what we need to maintain interest in Bionicle. Also, I highly recommend [url=http://www.bzpower.com/board/topic/11507-bionicle-nova-orbis-new-world/Nova Orbis, an awesome comic series by NickonAquaMagna.

Check out the script for Mysterious Island, an adaption/reboot of the 2001 Bionicle story which I am writing. It's also a musical.

 
Bionicle is returning in 2015!

#78 Offline Tattorack

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Posted Apr 26 2014 - 05:26 AM

Quite a few people were close fans of Bionicle, actually, and since Hero Factory was it's direct replacement, it makes a lot of sense that some people (myself included) wish that it could be discontinued in order to allow the start of a new constraction line similar to Bionicle.

 

Well, I was open and willing to give Hero Factory a good chance. Hey, all stories end right? I was hoping they'd used some advice/examples from Bionicle to improve even further.


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#79 Offline BionicleBordeaux

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Posted Apr 27 2014 - 12:02 PM

Always that happy ending, pretty 1-Dimensional characters, generic names,and tons of things ripped off from Bionicle,and very simple sets.


Edited by BionicleBordeaux, Apr 27 2014 - 12:04 PM.

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#80 Offline Aanchir

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Posted Apr 27 2014 - 12:02 PM

Frankly, I'm not offended by people not liking Hero Factory. Not everyone is going to enjoy the same thing. If I disagree, I'll share my opinions, because having a variety of opinions represented adds to the discussion.

I am slightly offended when I see people say things that manage to insult the work of all Hero Factory designers and MOCists, including myself. Just like I would be offended about seeing people say the same things about BIONICLE (and believe it or not, people DO say those sorts of things on other, less BIONICLE-centric sites like deviantART and Brickset). I like the Hero Factory building system better than the BIONICLE building system, but I recognize that BIONICLE was great for its time and was well-suited to certain building styles. That's not the same as saying BIONICLE sets and MOCs are creatively inferior to Hero Factory ones. Each theme's sets demonstrate a lot of variety, and some of them are more creative than others. Even moreso with MOCs, which range from small, set-like MOCs (which can, in some cases, have their own sort of elegance) to huge, elaborate custom models.

Everyone is free to criticize Hero Factory. In fact, this topic was created to invite that sort of criticism. Don't think for a minute that I think everyone should enjoy the same themes. But likewise, if people like me disagree with certain criticisms, they are free to say so. If
I were to say those kinds of things about BIONICLE, wouldn't you also want to express your disagreement?


I was initially concerned that you or another HF fan might be offended by a reference to Hero Factory as "dumb", as well as a trivialization of the plot of said series. I'm glad to hear that that isn't the case, though.

Don't get me wrong, I definitely disagree with that opinion. But tahu3.0 made it immensely clear that it was just his opinion: "for me, it has a dumb plot.... for me, it is a dumb cartoon". And the summary of the storyline as going out to capture a new villain each year is more or less accurate — it is an episodic "monster of the week" storyline, and it follows that formula very closely, though the missions obviously have more nuance when you look at them in detail. If a person doesn't like that type of storytelling as a general rule, it's not like presenting them the subtler details of the story will change that opinion.

And believe me, I'm glad some people prefer BIONICLE to Hero Factory or the other way around. It's definitely not just the same theme with two different names — they had incredibly different storytelling styles, aesthetic styles, and building styles. The fact that some people love one theme's style and dislike the other's shows that they care. At the same time, it's important to remember that not every style can appeal to everybody. Different styles are suited to people with different tastes. So Hero Factory wasn't universally better or worse than BIONICLE. It made changes, and changes can be positive, negative, or neutral depending on your perspective. It's important to be able to make those comparisons for yourself without also insulting the tastes of people who feel differently.

Always that happy ending and pretty 1-Dimensional characters and also generic names.

Didn't BIONICLE also have a happy ending for its first five years? The decisive battles in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, and 2005 all ended in victories for the heroes and momentary peace for the Matoran they were protecting.

Sometimes there were some details that undercut the happiness of the ending slightly. The Mata Nui Online Game ended with the Bohrok Swarms being released. Legends of Metru Nui and Web of Shadows both ended with Metru Nui a deserted wreck, but the heroes emerged unscathed and succeeded in their mission of rescuing the Matoran. The ninth comic in 2002 ended with the Toa Nuva divided and the Bohrok-Kal emerging as a new threat, although perhaps it could be argued that this was more of a teaser for the 2003 storyline than a part of the 2002 storyline — BIONICLEstory.com's story overview ended Chapter 2: The Bohrok Swarms with the events of comic #8, and the Toa Mata's transformation into Toa Nuva.

The most recent three Hero Factory story arcs all did end with cliffhangers after the main victory, the way BIONICLE storylines did for so long, but frustratingly none of those cliffhangers went anywhere. The one in Breakout was OK, since it didn't give the sense that the effects of that unresolved plot thread would be immediate, but I'd prefer a neat and tidy happy ending over an irrelevant cliffhanger any day.

Edited by Aanchir: Rachira of Time, Apr 27 2014 - 12:20 PM.

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