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Well said, Krayzikk.I think that suggesting that the characters on your list are 'nigh-indestructible' is rather short-sighted. Echelon is physically weak, and if you remember, hasn't actually won a lot of fights (most of the fights he's known for ended with him retreating). Utu was recently sent to the brink of death by Yuru. Aurax got killed by a Rahkshi. Even Heuani sustained a fair bit of damage in his recent encounter with Dorian.If you'd like more examples, just ask.

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Echelon is like the epitome of trope-style villainy. He's super smart, and he's rather powerful in anything other than physical matters, and instead of staying to fight, he's likely to retreat, and let his lackeys finish it for him.Especially if he feels like he's losing. Just let the random servants stay, fight, and die, while he gets out and laughs.am i doin it rite

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I'd like to point out the fact, "plot armor" or none, all staff characters (Daedra, Ancora, Dorian, Oceanic Six, Heunai, Echelon, Heimelas, Madrihk, Utu, and every other "important character) are Over-Powered. They're all nigh indestructable, have powers beyond the imagining of our puny little characters.Personally, I hate it. Everthing has a weakness, there is always a bigger fish, and the fact that you could gather all the other characters together and barely SCRATCH one of these characters before through some dark magic (which magic ISN'T supposed to exist in this game, according to the rules) or "the thousands of years of time-honed training" kicks in, and that character blows all his opponents to [heck] and [that] ticks me off. I find major fault with this.Opposite of our resident ghostly hands, I'm pretty sure there is a staff power, and it's only available to a certain cadre of players who have through some means or another, gotten involved in the staff plot, or just claimed the character is a god among men really gets to me. It really ruins the experience for me, with at least twenty persons of mass destruction walking around the island all the time.
I'd like to take the time to reply to this because I think it's a very big claim and also brings a big case to the table: The satisfaction of a player. See, every character has a weakness that can truly be exploited. None of the characters are anywhere close to indestructible; even Heuani will accept wounds when given (but I think the issue of Heuani has been addressed several times already, and even he has a weakness).
  • The Daedra are seemingly more poweful because they're run by players who work as a team (albeit a fake one) and are both quite active and somewhat experienced. Individually, they're no better than the rest of the lot, but as a team they're quite a bit more potent.

  • Dorian... Well...

  • The Oceanic Six are the only matoran active in a staff plot, and if you still think they're overpowered, I'd ask you to clarify what you think "overpowered" means, because they're just matoran. Rahkshi came along and two died while the rest fled. One of their number is almost a prophet, but aside from that their skills are little more than mundane abilities to survive, throw disks and sing songs, hardly overpowered.
  • Echelon can be beaten, it's just that he can be tricky because he's unorthodox. But Ghosthands has the benefit of good writing and creativity, and he makes good use of both those things. Therein lies Echelon's true power. That, and the fact that Ghosthands associated Echelon with staff characters like Ronkshou and... um, maybe someone else. But again, he's just one unorthodox toa.
  • Hiemalis... Okay, I can see where you got the idea that he's invincible here. He sprung a single surprise attack on a hospital and bested several beings in combat, but remember it was a surprise attack (nobody expected it) and I, as his player, was given permission to raze the hospital. His actions in-game were sprouting from that fact, and I simply took great liberty in doing just that. But in the end, he was actually defeated, jailed and had to be broken out by strong hands.
  • Madrihk isn't overpowered, he's just the leader of the largest player-controlled organization on the island. His strength comes from that fact. In combat, I don't think he's particularly strong in any aspect, though I will confess I haven't looked at many posts of him fighting. Madrihk is strong because Katuko leads at least a dozen players, that's it. And he can be assassinated, so...
  • Utu was powerful because Legion played him well and because he had one of the strongest Marks, that is to say it drew from a potent emotion and gained much strength from it. But I believe Utu had been defeated, too, and was kept active because he was central to the Mark Bearer plot. The battles he took part in were (mainly or wholly) between fellow Mark Bearers, too, so I bet the fights were coordinated, too.

See, all of those characters get their power from a legitimate source, or their "power" isn't really powerful at all. Some of them are powerful by association with a group or something greater, while others have strengths that are actually just benefits of a good player. Some are even puny and little, as you used in your post. So you're right: Everyone has a weakness, and all of those characters have weaknesses.I don't believe any of those characters have "thousands of years of time hones skill," either. None. Some are pretty good fighters because of a skill, but that's in large part due to the creativity of the player. After all, a character is only as smart as it's player. There is no godmode cheat some players can punch in, there is no celestial armor or spirit cloak characters possess, it's just that some characters are played well, some are involved in personal plots, some characters are unorthodox, etc. Even those involved with the staff plot can die, and in fact have a higher chance of dying if they do so; look at Aurax as an example.If your experience is being ruined because you don't think you can match what other characters are doing in the battlefield, it's because you think they are bigger dogs and view them as such. If you think about the "demigods" of the game as equals in the field then the game becomes much more easy to handle and the only thing left to do is learn how to better your own creativity and writing skill, because that's where the powers truly come from.Remember, every character is played by a player, and every player was puny at one time, too. We all sucked at one time (except me; I'm awesome :D ). Learn from your own mistakes like we did, get better from watching how the older players play, listen carefully to what some people say and be creative in everything that you do and you will enjoy this game muuuuch more than you are now. That's the best advice anyone can give here.

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So, I think what everybody's saying here is that if you want to become nigh indestructible, go take a creative writing class.But just for reference, what do you think the strongest element in the game is? I think that situation wise, it would either have to be air (Suffocate people), plasma (it burns through EVERYTHING), or magnetism (every single being in the game is at least 50% metal and so are most of their weapons). Iron would come as a close fourth but the strength difference between magnetism and iron would probably be situational.And yes, earth physics don't seem to apply here (how the karz was kiarani able to block a LIGHTNING BOLT?). It's annoying, I know.

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And again, this is Bionicle. Unless somebody discovered Protodermis and didn't tell Greg, (most) Real-World Physics don't apply here. Like Electricity moving at near the speed of light. If that was so, it would be basically impossible to dodge, even with a Kakama, and anybody would be instantly fried if they got attacked by that. Lightning bolts are dodgeable and blockable in this game.Why does that issue, with Lightning, always seemed to get mentioned in any debate ever in this topic?

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In ANY debate? Wouldn't that be a severe case of off-topicness?I think it's because of how unrealistic it is. Lightning strikes contain up to 200000 amperes. It only takes 1 milliampre to kill a person (through the heart, that is. You could still survive being hit by a lightning bolt but it would still do a number on you). But Mata Nui doesn't have the medical technology we do, so it would still be a very serious case. The fact that beings here are made up of metal makes it even worse.EDIT: Ninja'ed. GH, who said that? Electricity has to have crazy amounts of wattage/voltage (don't know which one) to even be visible over such a large expanse.Also, in real life, lightning isn't a travelling beam like plasma but rather it's an energy jump between two places.

Edited by Constructman
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Hiemalis... Okay, I can see where you got the idea that he's invincible here. He sprung a single surprise attack on a hospital and bested several beings in combat, but remember it was a surprise attack (nobody expected it) and I, as his player, was given permission to raze the hospital. His actions in-game were sprouting from that fact, and I simply took great liberty in doing just that. But in the end, he was actually defeated, jailed and had to be broken out by strong hands.
Just to add something in here: He ended up being used as a card table by a Toa who tried to follow the code by running back in to save him from the collapse of the hospital.That's right, guys. Don't be afraid of these characters: Use them as card tables.

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I still hold you in contempt for that, too.
On the bright side, Hiemalis won every hand.
Including the final one. Also known as, Jaron eventually had a heart attack anyways.EDIT: EW: Assuming it's allowed, seeing as I'm not certain. After all, the setting is still on the island.And what's with all the Jaron hate? Just because he used Hiemalis as a card table? (and eventually had a conversation with Dorian as to why Dorian should have stayed dead, leading to appearances as a ghost, to my attempting to bring him back, to his getting destroyed once and for all, and blah, blah blah, blah blah...) Edited by Kal Grochi

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i'm a south american giant otter now

 

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In ANY debate? Wouldn't that be a severe case of off-topicness?I think it's because of how unrealistic it is. Lightning strikes contain up to 200000 amperes. It only takes 1 milliampre to kill a person (through the heart, that is. You could still survive being hit by a lightning bolt but it would still do a number on you). But Mata Nui doesn't have the medical technology we do, so it would still be a very serious case. The fact that beings here are made up of metal makes it even worse.EDIT: Ninja'ed. GH, who said that? Electricity has to have crazy amounts of wattage/voltage (don't know which one) to even be visible over such a large expanse.Also, in real life, lightning isn't a travelling beam like plasma but rather it's an energy jump between two places.
Constructman, I'm taking my A-Level in Physics and I'm top of the class. I know about lightning ;)Lightning in the world of Bionicle is rather different to the definition we have for it IRL. It's really more like electricity. Since, in the real world, you need a massive potential difference (also known as voltage) to make air conduct, we can probably assume that elemental Lightning does not work in the conventional sense. Imagine it like this; a Toa of Fire doesn't need a stream of fuel to make a stream of fire, right? And neither does a Toa of Magnetism need an object on which to create a magnetic field. In the same way, a Toa of Lightning doesn't need a conductor to make arcs of electricity. They travel through the air as if they were being conducted, but as they are sustained by EE they don't need anything to conduct through.

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So the EE takes the place of the fuel/voltage/object? That sort of makes sense with fire, having an invisible and intangible form of fuel, but I still don't really know. But I guess we'll just have to accept that.RANDOM TOPIC CHANGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!When are the ancora going out? And also, who'll be the leader?

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Off-Topic:

So... Echelon is Dr. Horrible?
No, you're meant to feel sympathy for Dr Horrible, because at heart he's a good person. He doesn't laugh. He doesn't have lackies. You're just trying to find references to make now that I've introduced a few of you to this stuff. :POn-Argument:Guys, I think that all of the points necessary have been made, just like they were made every other time we had this argument. If some people refuse to accept it, fine, let them. We've had enough arguing here.On-Topic:
And what's with all the Jaron hate?
He died. I think we all just want dead characters to stay that way.- Austin Powers

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I actually planned on if time ran out for Seven, I'd try to convince Snelly to get Wraith to stick her arm to his body, so then she'd live on within the Mark-thingie that would now be part of Wraith.

When are the ancora going out? And also, who'll be the leader?
I shall defer to your leadership.Just ... testing your expertise.
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I'd like to take a moment to address some of the main points I've seen after reading this whole argument.1. In the words of another famous Tyler Durden with good taste in hairstyling, you are not special. Dorian is not a demigod in this game, nor has he ever been; rather, his strength has always been using the powers and abilities he's picked up IC and using them in a unique way, tailored to each specific opponent he faces. I'd also like to point out that in the five main battles he's been in this year, Dorian's been the underdog in all of them: Naara, Brykon, Anthyn, Utu, and Heuani were all opponents he faced off against when he had either no prior knowledge of them, was massively underpowered compared to them, or both. It all comes down to how the battle itself is played. Going in with a victor automatically in your head isn't the way to play PvP; it defeats the purpose of it, and to assume I make Dorian win every time for the sake of some sort of power trip is ridiculous.2. If you out-RP me, your character will defeat Dorian. As Eyru said, he can bleed, and indeed, he's bled a lot over the course of this year; it's all about utilizing his weaknesses and repeatedly hitting him there. One of my strong suits as RPing against Dorian is never letting up. He's feral, vicious, and he refuses to back off you for a split second unless he's sure that, by letting you loose, he can hurt you more in the long run. It's true, as EW said: recurring strategies from other fights with Dorian often pop up in newer battles. The iron bones thing he suggested wasn't accurate; however, it's true that he did follow a cycle based around the use of his Mark as a trump card. The Mark, however, is gone. So is his gun. He's just a character, and despite joking GD posts every now and then, never once have I suggested anything to the contrary.3. People can - and do - try against Dorian, and the ones that do are vastly superior to me as role players. When EW posted as Brykon and began the fight with Dorian, I spent hours studying his profile until I had it memorized. When EW made Anthyn attack Dorian, after my initial twenty minutes of "Oh, God, why is this happening to me!?" over AIM and Skype, I studied her profile, too. To fight Heuani, I studied Dorian and amplified him by ten, gave him new powers and ultra speed and strength, and then dissected both characters. Dorian - and, by extension, me as a player - doesn't win his fights by brute forcing his way through them. Every post I make as Dorian is comprised almost entirely of real world physiology and realistic fighting: when fighting Brykon, my focus was on pressure points and hand-to-hand techniques. Against Anthyn, I studied wings, the veins inside them, and their weakest points; as well, I read up extensively on Tai Chi to figure out how I could use the speed and strength of a far superior opponent against them. For Heuani, I watched Tim Tebow replay tapes on the Internet, connected with a higher power, and then hoped for the best. The people who go up against Dorian are, most of the time, far more skilled and creative role players than I am, and they go out of their way to tear me a new one. For that, I'm eternally grateful.4. Finally, and this is most important, Dorian and I did not get where we are through any sort of favoritism or staff plot armor. To suggest otherwise is offensive both to me as a player and writer, and to my homeboy Nuju, who does more behind the scenes to make this game run as spectacularly and seamlessly as it does than any of you know. In addition, everything I want to do doesn't always get done because Nuju doesn't approve it, and I can name a couple ideas I had off the top of my head that weren't approved because they didn't fit with this year's atmosphere. For details, look out for my upcoming blog, "I Am Roleplayer (And So Can You!)"That's all. If you have any other complaints or concerns about me as a player or Dorian's integrity as a character, I encourage you - almost beg you, really - to hit me up on AIM or Skype as bzdurden and we can discuss them. I promise you, I really don't bite. :)-Teezy

Edited by Tyler Durden

SAY IT ONE MORE TIME 

TELL ME WHAT IS ON YOUR MIND

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3. People can - and do - try against Dorian, and the ones that do are vastly superior to me as role players. When EW posted as Brykon and began the fight with Dorian, I spent hours studying his profile until I had it memorized. When EW made Anthyn attack Dorian, after my initial twenty minutes of "Oh, God, why is this happening to me!?" over AIM and Skype, I studied her profile, too. To fight Heuani, I studied Dorian and amplified him by ten, gave him new powers and ultra speed and strength, and then dissected both characters. Dorian - and, by extension, me as a player - doesn't win his fights by brute forcing his way through them. Every post I make as Dorian is comprised almost entirely of real world physiology and realistic fighting: when fighting Brykon, my focus was on pressure points and hand-to-hand techniques. Against Anthyn, I studied wings, the veins inside them, and their weakest points; as well, I read up extensively on Tai Chi to figure out how I could use the speed and strength of a far superior opponent against them. For Heuani, I watched Tim Tebow replay tapes on the Internet, connected with a higher power, and then hoped for the best. The people who go up against Dorian are, most of the time, far more skilled and creative role players than I am, and they go out of their way to tear me a new one. For that, I'm eternally grateful.
That's...impressive research, Tyler. I just go and watch X-Men...

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Kaccio knows that stuff, as do other teachers from the Academy. Praggos is ahead of his time in biological technology, and Tank/Arekule were both extremely gifted scientists. The stuff is out there to study; Dorian just utilizes it in a different way from some of the more sage-like characters in the game.-Teezy

SAY IT ONE MORE TIME 

TELL ME WHAT IS ON YOUR MIND

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Kaccio knows that stuff, as do other teachers from the Academy. Praggos is ahead of his time in biological technology, and Tank/Arekule were both extremely gifted scientists. The stuff is out there to study; Dorian just utilizes it in a different way from some of the more sage-like characters in the game.-Teezy
All due to Snipe, actually. I thought it was kinda funny."Praggos is now a scientist. Have fun."

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Kaccio knows that stuff, as do other teachers from the Academy. Praggos is ahead of his time in biological technology, and Tank/Arekule were both extremely gifted scientists. The stuff is out there to study; Dorian just utilizes it in a different way from some of the more sage-like characters in the game.-Teezy
All due to Snipe, actually. I thought it was kinda funny."Praggos is now a scientist. Have fun."
You hear that noise? That is the noise of millions of forsaken minions of Hubert crying out in despair at the fact that Grochi has achieved great scientific success.WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE.
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Just... Ignore. It seems the only thing I'm able to do is make mistakes and tick people off.
Welcome to the club.I think a very important factor why we fear the "higher tier" PCs is because they have advanced to a god-like status because of their superior players and previous victories/survival skills. And thus they become the larger than life gods of destruction they are today.

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Just... Ignore. It seems the only thing I'm able to do is make mistakes and tick people off.
Welcome to the club.I think a very important factor why we fear the "higher tier" PCs is because they have advanced to a god-like status because of their superior players and previous victories/survival skills. And thus they become the larger than life gods of destruction they are today.
However, the only difference between our chars and their chars in terms of power is...well, minimal, unless we write in our chars profile "Super newb dude, bad at all his powers."The true difference in power is how people RP their chars, and the moment you think of them as 'ascended', you will play in a defensive way, meaning you probably won't win.

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Now that we've put all this behind us...A few questions about the AncoraOne: Who's the leader? And please don't make it an exact mirror of the Daedra (Charity being the leader) because I feel somebody like Kal or Eyru would be a better choiceTwo: Can we start RPing as our Ancora?Three: When will they meet up?Yeah, I know, I feel like a freshman in the senior wing of the high school. A dwarf walking among giants.

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