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#38321 Offline -JL-

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 06:21 AM

We need some insight into the BZPRPG's Makuta. For so long he's just 'Shadows and evil'. I feel like 2013 needs to give him a reason to be shadowy and evil.

Absolutely not. The best evil is the irredeemable kind, the evil with cause but left unexplained, the commiter unrepentant and, yes, giving no explanation. Some of the most evil characters in fiction as a whole were created by Shakespeare. The most insidious of them all, however, is Iago, a character in the play Othello. He uses his clever abilities to become the most trusted aide to Othello all while he plots to destroy Othello's life, such as seeding discord in the family and making Othello kill his own wife, Desmedonna, under suspicious of treachery. He hates for no apparent reason and almost succeeds in his ploy, but when he s caught and asked why he did it all, he gives no explanation and simple refuses to speak of it at all. THAT is evil. THAT is brilliance. There suddenly is nothing human about Iago, nothing relatable by the observers of the play. In this game's setting, we have a being of arguably pure evil: The Makuta. He is evil without reason, darkness itself, the everlasting villain. He cannot be compared to any character, and as soon as you give him an origin and a purpose to be evil all the magic vanishes from him. Makuta and Ambages are the two major bastions of evil. Though I cannot vouch for Nuju and his portrayal of the Makuta, I don't think it would be right to give him reason to be the way he is, and for the sake of leading by example Ambages' goals will never be explained. They will forever be enigmas.
Mystery might be a good thing, but IMO a pure evil guy with no motives other than being evil makes the story a bit too cheesy and childish. But if mystery is applied to a character, I think another thing needs to be applied to that character as well - Power, to the point of near invincibility.Also, it's Desdemona...but that's beside the point. And Iago had a reason to be angry at Othello.

Edited by JL v2, Jan 19 2013 - 06:26 AM.

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#38322 Online Jenny Quantum

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 06:37 AM

Also, it's Desdemona...but that's beside the point. And Iago had a reason to be angry at Othello.

I'm pretty sure you can excuse a slip of the fingers on a keyboard, thanks. And while scholars have given some explanations, it is never revealed what his purpose is, nor does he show repentance, so your information is based on conjecture and has no impact on my point.

 

 

Mystery might be a good thing, but IMO a pure evil guy with no motives other than being evil makes the story a bit too cheesy and childish. But if mystery is applied to a character, I think another thing needs to be applied to that character as well - Power, to the point of near invincibility.

So the Makuta and Ambages are childish and cheesy now? Fch, hardly. But true to your note, both of those characters seem to have immense power, one of which to the point of invincibility. So yet again your point doesn't help you.

 

True evil is beyond redemption, and both the Makuta (a malignant entity of pure shadow who exists to contrast what is Good) and Ambages (a man who has been described as having nothing good in his soul) cannot possibly be redeemed. True evil, when played correctly, is never childish.


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#38323 Offline Geisthande

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 06:46 AM

I think pure evil - especially when it's unexplained and unfathomable - is the most sinister enemy of them all.  Have you ever played Mass Effect? If so, then think of Sovereign and the Reapers.  One of BioWare's biggest mistakes, imo, was to reveal the Reapers' origins and telling us why they do what they do.

 

Most 'cheesy and childish' stories have 'pure evil' villains, certainly - but don't make the mistake of thinking that works the other way round.  Pure, unknowable evil, when it's done properly, makes for some of the most terrifying adversaries possible.

 

Why do you think people rave about such villains as Echelon and Anthyn?


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#38324 Offline -JL-

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 06:58 AM

HY WON'T THE QUOTE WORKRight, to sum it up - it really depends on who the character is for, and who is writing that evil character.Pure evil for a kids fairy tale would obviously be childish. But that doesn't mean it was played badly, or that it isn't evil enough.But for evil like Ambages and Makuta, they are characters for US. Play them for us and they won't be childish. However, I feel like, to play them so we enjoy it, a little bit of backstory is needed as well. Makuta has the backstory that says the Toa Mata faced him and failed. As for Ambages,I haven't read everything about him, but its obviously enough backstory. I don't think backstory kills an evil character. BAD backstory does that.

Edited by JL v2, Jan 19 2013 - 07:08 AM.

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#38325 Offline Axilus Prime

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 06:59 AM

This is interesting...

 

Personally, I like all villains to be pure evil unless it supports the plot to have some of them have some good. The main villain, however, must always be pure evil.

 

I'm fine with a background story for villains, but I prefer it to be partial.


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#38326 Offline -JL-

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 07:24 AM

GHWho is The Architect Who is he!
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#38327 Online LONG LIVE TYLER

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 07:42 AM

Henceforth, Stannis shall be known as...

 

... the Granite Paladin.

 

And his deputy, Lord Snowcone the Snarky~

 

-Tyler


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#38328 Online A Magus With Class

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 07:55 AM

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Daenerys Targaryen" data-cid="493170" data-time="1358581069"><p><blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="JL v2" data-cid="493163" data-time="1358580447"><p>We need some insight into the BZPRPG's Makuta.<br /> <br />For so long he's just 'Shadows and evil'.<br /> <br />I feel like 2013 needs to give him a reason to be shadowy and evil.</p></blockquote>Absolutely not.<br /> <br />The best evil is the irredeemable kind, the evil with cause but left unexplained, the commiter unrepentant and, yes, giving no explanation. Some of the most evil characters in fiction as a whole were created by Shakespeare. The most insidious of them all, however, is Iago, a character in the play <em class='bbc'>Othello</em>. He uses his clever abilities to become the most trusted aide to Othello all while he plots to destroy Othello's life, such as seeding discord in the family and making Othello kill his own wife, Desmedonna, under suspicious of treachery. He hates for no apparent reason and almost succeeds in his ploy, but when he s caught and asked why he did it all, he gives no explanation and simple refuses to speak of it at all.<br /> <br />THAT is evil. THAT is brilliance. There suddenly is nothing human about Iago, nothing relatable by the observers of the play. In this game's setting, we have a being of arguably pure evil: The Makuta. He is evil without reason, darkness itself, the everlasting villain. He cannot be compared to any character, and as soon as you give him an origin and a purpose to be evil all the magic vanishes from him.<br /> <br />Makuta and Ambages are the two major bastions of evil. Though I cannot vouch for Nuju and his portrayal of the Makuta, I don't think it would be right to give him reason to be the way he is, and for the sake of leading by example Ambages' goals will never be explained. They will forever be enigmas.</p></blockquote>I actually dislike this sort of character. It just feels too... Unrealisfic to me. I'm the sort of person who believes that everybody has a story behind them and how they became evil; after all, nobody comes out of their mother's wombs killing people. I think if you portray them in that "pure evil" way, it becomes l harder (for me) to flesh the xharactebout because here is nothing you can relatetoo. They're just too... Alien. Usually, I try to keep a degree of humanity in my harftwrs (unless they're garbage characters).
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#38329 Offline Just Norik

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 08:01 AM

That quote looks readable.Back ON Topic, I believe pure evil is nice but we are interacting with them, and ot just foesn't work that way. I mean, even in Warhammer Chaos was evil because of what drives them.But I'm not saying the BZPRPG Makuta is bad to read. It's just characters, PCs, should have some motives at least, and some sort of reason.
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#38330 Offline Fabulous Sunshine

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 08:10 AM

Well you see Constructman, there are certain things known as personality disorders that you know, can develop during youth.

 

And some of them involve rather negative traits.


Edited by Nutrients, Jan 19 2013 - 08:10 AM.

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#38331 Online Xenophilic Zeno

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 08:19 AM

Henceforth, Stannis shall be known as...

 

... the Granite Paladin.

 

And his deputy, Lord Snowcone the Snarky~

 

-Tyler

As well as their companion, the Black Knight, who is also known as 'Sulov du Trailmix.'

 

[font="tahoma, geneva, sans-serif;"]*Hand chopped off* "It's just a flesh wound!"[/font]


Edited by Jerry Renault, Jan 19 2013 - 08:22 AM.

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#38332 Offline Au'Rehn Rising

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 08:23 AM

That quote looks readable.Back ON Topic, I believe pure evil is nice but we are interacting with them, and ot just foesn't work that way. I mean, even in Warhammer Chaos was evil because of what drives them.But I'm not saying the BZPRPG Makuta is bad to read. It's just characters, PCs, should have some motives at least, and some sort of reason.

I wonder who'll make character dedicated to the four first. (Because, that would be kinda cool. Toa of sonics dedicated to Slaanesh, or the thought of it, or maybe a Toa of magnetism working for the concept of Tzeentch.)

 

You, or me?


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#38333 Offline Fabulous Sunshine

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 08:26 AM

>Black Knight

 

*Someone mentions Sulov's lack of hand.*

 

"Tis but a scratch."


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- D.J. Sagara

 

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#38334 Online A Magus With Class

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 08:29 AM

@Auron: What? Slaanesh? Tzeentech? Wut?
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#38335 Offline Au'Rehn Rising

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 08:37 AM

@Auron: What? Slaanesh? Tzeentech? Wut?

It's something Norik knows about.

 

Just think, Gods of Pleasure and Magic.

 

Dark Magic.


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#38336 Offline DoctorCouch

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 08:38 AM

@Auron: What? Slaanesh? Tzeentech? Wut?

 

Warhammer/Warhammer 40k Chaos gods.

 

He's talking about making expies. (And therefore must be destroyed)


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Honk!


#38337 Offline Just Norik

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 08:42 AM

I didn't say nothing.Anyway, the time has come. The Wanderer's Company has transformed.Why am I not bouncing up and down in uncontrollable excitement and joy?Give it a second there....YAHOOEEY!!!!
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#38338 Offline Meta-Mind

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 10:23 AM

Well, the WC's recent transformation reminded me of this, so I figured I'd post it here: the Wanderer's Company page over on the BZPRPG Wiki needs someone to add to its History section. I haven't been around here for long enough to give the full history of the team, so I can't add much to the History section except for what they've done since last September or so. Could someone who's been here for a bit longer go and write up some history for the page, please?On an unrelated note, I'll chime in about the evil thing: it depends on what kind of story you're going for. In a setting mostly driven by the apparently infinite mystery and power of Makuta, it would really cheapen him as well as everyone else on the island to give him much of a backstory at the moment.

Edited by Meta-Mind, Jan 19 2013 - 10:23 AM.

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Time is beyond relative here.

There's no reason not to put lasers in the palms of planet-sized robots. In fact, if I had my own planet-sized robot, palm lasers would be one of my first upgrades. It's good for self-defense if you're attacked by something big.

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#38339 Offline Geisthande

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 12:31 PM

GHWho is The Architect Who is he!

 

> Rants about how he doesn't know enough about Ambages

 

> Asks who 'The Architect' is

 

I rest my case.


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#38340 Offline Friar Tuck

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 12:59 PM

[color=#696969;]... instantly rang out with hangover and I resisted the urge to smirk as I advanced through the jungle full of midgets and leaned in the doorway in front of Tuara.[/color]

 

"Heel."

 

[color=#696969;]"Woof," I replied quietly, giving her the sparkly eyes treatment and this time not even bothering to hide my grin.[/color]

 

-Tyler

 

[color=#8b4513;]My money is on Turara and that she kills him outright.[/color]

 

[color=#8b4513;]Any takers?[/color]


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Living large... like clown-shoe size large. Complete with nose, rainbow-colored hair, and a bottle of seltzer water.

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#38341 Offline Simon the Digger

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 01:24 PM

I'm not betting against it. Betting against those odds is just asking to be robbed blind.


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#38342 Offline Toa Xemnas of Crystal

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 01:26 PM

Well, the WC's recent transformation reminded me of this, so I figured I'd post it here: the Wanderer's Company page over on the BZPRPG Wiki needs someone to add to its History section. I haven't been around here for long enough to give the full history of the team, so I can't add much to the History section except for what they've done since last September or so. Could someone who's been here for a bit longer go and write up some history for the page, please? 

I think I can do that... when I get around to it. :P

 

On another note, that transformation post was... magnificent, to say the least. It brought a tear to my eye. =3


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"I need your advice- I feel really jealous that she got to turn into a Toa and not me... and then that guy comes in and woos her! What should I do to overcome my jealousy?

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pls.

 

 

 


#38343 Offline Au'Rehn Rising

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 02:48 PM

@Auron: What? Slaanesh? Tzeentech? Wut?

 

Warhammer/Warhammer 40k Chaos gods.

 

He's talking about making expies. (And therefore must be destroyed)

 

 

@Auron: What? Slaanesh? Tzeentech? Wut?

 

Warhammer/Warhammer 40k Chaos gods.

 

He's talking about making expies. (And therefore must be destroyed)

I'm not talking about making expies.

 

I'm talking about making characters INSPIRED by these ideals.


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#38344 Online Jenny Quantum

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 04:04 PM

I actually dislike this sort of character. It just feels too... Unrealistic to me. I'm the sort of person who believes that everybody has a story behind them and how they became evil; after all, nobody comes out of their mother's wombs killing people. I think if you portray them in that "pure evil" way, it becomes l harder (for me) to flesh the characters out because here is nothing you can relate to. They're just too... Alien. Usually, I try to keep a degree of humanity in my characters (unless they're garbage characters).
Back ON Topic, I believe pure evil is nice but we are interacting with them, and ot just foesn't work that way. I mean, even in Warhammer Chaos was evil because of what drives them.But I'm not saying the BZPRPG Makuta is bad to read. It's just characters, PCs, should have some motives at least, and some sort of reason.

I don't think you get the point that the very fact that it makes a villain so alien, unrealistic and non-relatable is how the normal villain out for a carnal motive is separated by light years from the big bads who are completely dark. They are so evil there is no comparison to them, so enigmatic there is no means to understand them. In the game there are two examples of this, as I've said, and one is a godlike entity and the other is a man who wants to kill a god. They are both so evil there cannot be a contrast with any characters in the game. They're just that bad.

 

Most villains will have a reason to be evil. Some are insane for whatever reason, others were dragged past the moral event horizon, others were attracted to the sadistic aspect, and that's fine. Some people can only do the mislead villain or the vengeful dark overlord. But they will always be the lesser villains serving, if indirectly, someone far more sinister. Something not capable of being understood.

 

And yes, people still interact with Ambages and are perfectly healthy, so there is no reason characters themselves cannot be this level of evil.

 

 

GHWho is The Architect Who is he!

 

> Rants about how he doesn't know enough about Ambages

 

> Asks who 'The Architect' is

 

I rest my case.

I lol'd for real. Silly JL.


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#38345 Offline Au'Rehn Rising

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 04:08 PM

Maybe it's because Ambages is secretly an alien bent on taking control of mata nui? =3


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#38346 Online Jenny Quantum

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 04:20 PM

... That would give him a reason to be the way he is, and that would defile his incomparable malignancy. Sooooo no. :)


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"You speak of the realm of kings."

"No – I speak of the realm of gods."

 

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#38347 Offline Au'Rehn Rising

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 04:24 PM

But- If he isn't, that means he's understandable!

 

He just really hates them! =P


Edited by Varren Rehn, Jan 19 2013 - 04:24 PM.

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#38348 Offline CAPUA

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 04:29 PM

Hmph.

 

No one does true evil like the Cabal of Cruelty. >:(

 

Which currently consists of only one lonely guy in a castle so I suppose it's not really that impressive. :P


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#38349 Offline Au'Rehn Rising

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 04:32 PM

Just wait until that one lonely guy gets a friend.

 

Then, everyone shall be defeated by the most evil force to ever occupy the island. >=D


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#38350 Offline Geisthande

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 04:39 PM

It's been too long since Lohkar had some military people to make fun of...


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#38351 Online A Magus With Class

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 04:43 PM

Could Ira join Cabal?
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#38352 Offline CAPUA

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 05:08 PM

^

 

The Cabal does not discriminate!

 

As long as you are dedicated to evil and the suffering of others, then we open our doors and give you a warm embrace.

 

Go ahead and PM me if you have any more questions. :)


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#38353 Offline BenLuke

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 06:36 PM

Guys.

 

Makuta actually winning against the Wonder's Company in the finally battle would actually be one of the greatest things ever.

 

Just putting it out there.


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#38354 Online Jenny Quantum

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 06:40 PM

'Twould be redundant, don't you think? The First Toa were defeated. Having us be defeated, too, would just be more of the same.


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#38355 Offline Fabulous Sunshine

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 06:42 PM

That moment when the random outline you drafted in your head is ruined by the impulsiveness of random characters.

 

Eh, doesn't matter anyway - it still has the same outcome.

 

Guys.

 

Makuta actually winning against the Wonder's Company in the finally battle would actually be one of the greatest things ever.

 

Just putting it out there.

Nah, the Company wins, and then they realise the Makuta IS the island.


Edited by Nutrients, Jan 19 2013 - 06:42 PM.

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"It’s not Yggdrasil or Helheim you’re facing, it’s the cold rule that says the world demands sacrifice in exchange of hope. Destroy that rule and change the world."

- D.J. Sagara

 

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#38356 Offline BenLuke

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 07:09 PM

'Twould be redundant, don't you think? The First Toa were defeated. Having us be defeated, too, would just be more of the same.

 

Even if it would be redundant, it would at least make up for the predetermination problem that's been killing any of that plot's conflict. Nothing has ever hinted at the prophecy not being true, and so going against everyone's expectations could give the story a conclusion that people haven't know for more then half a year in advance.


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#38357 Offline Visaru

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 07:38 PM

We all know they will save the island from the evil darkness- however, that doesn't mean there will be no conflict. As we have seen with Aurax, the Chosen can still die, or even, like with Lepidran, turn out to not be chosen.

 

Perhaps the WC will have to sacrifice themselves? Maybe Makuta will only be temporarily stopped. What about Heuani? Joske? The first Toa?

 

Just because we know they win does not mean the story is dull.

 

Besides, if the Makuta wins, it'll negate the whole importance of the this year's plot. It might as well just had been that suicide squad idea tossed around a couple months ago. IMO, that would be even more boring.


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#38358 Offline CAPUA

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 07:42 PM

Personally I hope that the WC defeats Makuta, but as a result, they accidentally release something or make matters worse for the island somehow. Kind of mirroring the whole situation with the Bohrok. I think that would be interesting. :)


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#38359 Online LONG LIVE TYLER

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 07:51 PM

Did someone say "mole king?"

 

: D

 

-Tyler


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late nights and all night drives are reminders why i'm alive

 

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#38360 Offline Prodigal

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Posted Jan 19 2013 - 08:21 PM

[font="'times new roman', times, serif;"]No, no; Makuta is in the Essence stones, and (subtly) takes over the WC, while the First Toa possess the Rahkshi. This way, good seems to win, but evil really succeededs. The perfect plot twist. [/sarcasm][/font]

[font="'times new roman', times, serif;"]On a more serious note, who would I contact if I had interest in creating a rather high-rank, specialized member of one of the Koros' Militia/Police forces?[/font]


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