Bzprpg News And Discussion

[sunflower]

I like the idea of having a "neutral temperature" state, as if there's only a certain amount of "cold" energy within an area, and only a certain amount of "heat" energy.Almost if absorbing all the heat gets you to the neutral temperature, and then one would have to add cold energy to go lower then that neutral temperature. And vice versa.KATUKO YOU GENIUS.

[Eyru]

I like to think that absorbing cold energy simply leaves a cold environment at neutral temperature, and an already neutral environment at a much more "ready" state to be heated.I'm not sure how much I think a Toa of Fire should be able to absorb, but I do tend to head-canon that no, they can't really go sub-zero.

I like the idea of having a "neutral temperature" state, as if there's only a certain amount of "cold" energy within an area, and only a certain amount of "heat" energy.Almost if absorbing all the heat gets you to the neutral temperature, and then one would have to add cold energy to go lower then that neutral temperature. And vice versa.

These ideas contradict both real-word physics and BIONICLE canon, so I'm not exactly sure where you're coming from. In one of the few cases where the canon actually makes some sort of sense in the context of real-world physics, Vakama was able to create freezing temperatures by absorbing all the heat in an area. This works: if you absorb enough heat from an area, it will get colder, and you theoretically should be able to keep going until you reach close to absolute zero (the amount of concentration it would take to absorb that much heat would be unattainable by any PC, though, so it's a moot point).Also, as for control of an element on the subatomic level: there's no way any PC character has enough willpower to do that (even if they knew subatomic particles existed, which no one really should, in my opinion). A Toa of Plasma, for example, can use their element while being ignorant of how it works on a subatomic level, which is by ionizing gases. A Toa of Plasma should not know what an ion is, but that won't prevent them from manipulating their element.If you want to, you can describe how your powers are working on a subatomic level (OOC knowledge), but there's no way your character should know how her powers are working on a subatomic level (IC knowledge). Giving your character knowledge of cutting-edge physics is metagaming, to be perfectly blunt.

[sunflower]

These ideas contradict both real-word physics and BIONICLE canon, so I'm not exactly sure where you're coming from. In one of the few cases where the canon actually makes some sort of sense in the context of real-world physics, Vakama was able to create freezing temperatures by absorbing all the heat in an area. This works: if you absorb enough heat from an area, it will get colder, and you theoretically should be able to keep going until you reach close to absolute zero (the amount of concentration it would take to absorb that much heat would be unattainable by any PC, though, so it's a moot point).

It does make sense in real-world physics, I'm just trying to explain how the cold-energy would work in Bionicle physics, as this adds another element in "absorbing heat to get colder", because absorbing cold energy gives you heat. Perhaps there is no absolute zero in Bionicle, as that would require just heat in order to work.

[Light]

Uh, I usually stay away from atomic manipulation.Let's look at it this way. Sure, a Toa of Water would probably know frozen water is ice. HOWEVER. Even though they know this, they can't create it, as they can't slow down each individual atom. So, if it requires atomic manipulation AND you wouldn't know about it at this level of tech, stay away.

[Geardirector]

Uh, I usually stay away from atomic manipulation.Let's look at it this way. Sure, a Toa of Water would probably know frozen water is ice. HOWEVER. Even though they know this, they can't create it, as they can't slow down each individual atom. So, if it requires atomic manipulation AND you wouldn't know about it at this level of tech, stay away.

And yet, Waterbenders in Avatar control both water and Ice

[Light]

But this isn't avatar. We're more bound to physics here.

[Ghosthands]

If anyone on Mata Nui knows anything about electrons, it's only the most in-depth scientists and engineers, and even they would have a VERY limited knowledge.Do you know how small an electron is? It's incredibly small. Even if you knew they existed, you could never concentrate on something so much smaller than anything you can imagine.And then, even if you could, you would have to focus on billions upon billions of them to make even the smallest tangible effect. No-can-do.Also, a knowledge of charge does not require a knowledge of subatomic physics. Echelon knows he can deflect things like lightning and plasma because he's had many many years to study and experiment with his element. He doesn't need to know what he's doing at the subatomic level; that's like saying you need to know about gravity to stop yourself floating off into space.Even if you did somehow manage all the above, using your powers to move electrons in air particles would simply result in your ionising said particles, something which would be almost completely useless to you.And finally, from an OOC point of view, giving people the ability to do such things would make some characters ridiculously OP. A Toa of Magnetism, for example, could make any matter dissolve into atoms, or rip apart atomic nuclei to create fission explosions. Such abilities would be unhealthy to the game as a whole, even if there were any way they could be logically possible.I rest my case.

Edited November 8, 2012 by Ghosthands

[Katuko]

These ideas contradict both real-word physics and BIONICLE canon, so I'm not exactly sure where you're coming from. In one of the few cases where the canon actually makes some sort of sense in the context of real-world physics, Vakama was able to create freezing temperatures by absorbing all the heat in an area. This works: if you absorb enough heat from an area, it will get colder, and you theoretically should be able to keep going until you reach close to absolute zero (the amount of concentration it would take to absorb that much heat would be unattainable by any PC, though, so it's a moot point).

The problem is that BIONICLE has added "cold energy" to the mix, so that if there is cold... Toa of Ice can "absorb it" somehow. This recharges their energy, so either they have some really backwards hardware that actually operates better with less energy (heat), or there must be cold energy filling the air when it's chilled.

And yet, Waterbenders in Avatar control both water and Ice

Avatar uses "fantasy magic" of sorts. BIONICLE uses "tech magic". The tech here does not allow a Toa of Water to control it in its frozen state, but it can operate with both regular H2O and protodermic water; presumably some other liquids as well if they are close enough.

Also, a knowledge of charge does not require a knowledge of subatomic physics. Echelon knows he can deflect things like lightning and plasma because he's had many many years to study and experiment with his element. He doesn't need to know what he's doing at the subatomic level; that's like saying you need to know about gravity to stop yourself floating off into space.

Can't just about anyone say their character has years of experience? :3

And finally, from an OOC point of view, giving people the ability to do such things would make some characters ridiculously OP. A Toa of Magnetism, for example, could make any matter dissolve into atoms, or rip apart atomic nuclei to create fission explosions. Such abilities would be unhealthy to the game as a whole, even if there were any way they could be logically possible.

And this is why I've been against sub-powers in this game, as cool as they might be to use in story. Lightning also having magnetic properties makes things start to get unbalanced, just as we have to limit Iron to not just make a character's mask or helmet spike their own head.

[Ghosthands]

Also, a knowledge of charge does not require a knowledge of subatomic physics. Echelon knows he can deflect things like lightning and plasma because he's had many many years to study and experiment with his element. He doesn't need to know what he's doing at the subatomic level; that's like saying you need to know about gravity to stop yourself floating off into space.

Can't just about anyone say their character has years of experience? :3

Yes, but that's beside the point The point is that he doesn't know he can do it for the same reasons I do; he knows he can do it because he tried it before and it worked.

[Constructelf]

In response to Katuko, if we did limit iron, wouldn't we have to limit magnetism as well? Because you could technically crush someone with their own armor using magnetic fieldsIn response to Katuko, if we did limit iron, wouldn't we have to limit magnetism as well? Because you could technically crush someone with their own armor using magnetic fields

[BULiK]

In response to Katuko, if we did limit iron, wouldn't we have to limit magnetism as well? Because you could technically crush someone with their own armor using magnetic fields

Hence why we limit magnetism to some extent, and thus why people don't do that in an instakill way.

[Snelly]

In response to Katuko, if we did limit iron, wouldn't we have to limit magnetism as well? Because you could technically crush someone with their own armor using magnetic fields

Hence why we limit magnetism to some extent, and thus why people don't do that in an instakill way.

It's kinda like how Toa of Air can't just instantly suck all the air out of someone's lungs or pump too much air into them and make them explode. :3 Edited November 8, 2012 by Snelly Bieber

[Ghosthands]

Toa of Magnetism and Toa of Iron can crush their opponents in their own armour; it's just not an insta-kill.

[25K Now!]

Here we go again.

[Geardirector]

Tired? Hungry? Want to get away from it all?Then stop by "The Golden Pickaxe Inn" in Onu-Koro, where you can rest and relax before returning to your everyday life of adventure and heroism.And make sure you don't forget to miss owner and manager Borruki's nuggets of wisdom and absolutely riveting stories from his youth as a noble hero in this land.Coming to an RPG near you winter 2013.

[Meta-Mind]

Alright, here's my take on all of the various elemental discussions.JL, your explanation for the ionic breezes was... not the best. JL's "creativity" would only apply if he knew of electrons, which you have specifically stated he didn't. Additionally, moving each individual electron would take far too much effort and focus, and probably would require subatomic physics knowledge. There is, however, an alternate way of performing the technique (involving ionic gradients and the resulting movement of atoms, thus the name), which would fit better with a Toa's power level. The way you described it, though, the move... isn't all that feasible.Part of the "balancing" for some elements is simply fairness. A Toa of Air could simply vacuum air directly from an opponent's lungs - but not only would it take ridiculous focus (and spots of biology knowedge to know where exactly the air needs to be vacuumed from), it's not cool. The same goes for water (in settings with "human" characters, at least, Iron is similar here): although blood is around 90-ish percent water, just draining the blood from someone is stupid. Here, Iron puppeting, or crushing someone with their own metal insides, would not only require biology knowledge, it would also take an extensive amount of focus to manipulate just the right portions of someone's anatomy. Besides, I personally like to think that the Great Beings didn't design Toa to be able to affect each other's interiors - that's what Masks of Healing are for. Then there's character-specific balancing, which is an entirely different discussion all its own:For example, a future character concept of mine abuses electricity in pretty much every way possible - but that's how he's balanced. He makes up for it with light armor, no proper tool, and a few other drawbacks, just as Echelon's strong and versitale Elemental control is made up for by his lack of close-combat skill (though admittedly, he has undead minions to run interference). JL has no such balancing, he's pretty much got it all if he's given the kind of focus needed for effective air manipulation right off the bat. If I remember correctly, his weakness was listed as "weak armor" - but when he has an Electric power which can apparently match Echelon's (though this was de-canonized and resulted in Argentum being brutalized), and amazing phyiscal prowess, and an effective Toa Tool... well, seems like having a little weak armor here and there won't make much of a difference.Now for Fire versus Ice: I've personally thought of "cold energy" and "dark energy" as energy which absorbs heat and light, respectively. If the Great Beings placed some of this in the atmosphere to help keep the MU robot stable (which they probably did, because the MU was an excercize in "safeguards-R-Us"), then it gives Toa of Shadow and Ice something extra to work with. I've also thought of this as the projectiles blasted by Makuta and Toa of Ice, which apparently drain light or heat on contact. Now, whether a Toa of Ice can use these to superheat the atmosphere or not remains to be seen, though I would assume not.

[- JL -]

JL, your explanation for the ionic breezes was... not the best. JL's "creativity" would only apply if he knew of electrons, which you have specifically stated he didn't. Additionally, moving each individual electron would take far too much effort and focus, and probably would require subatomic physics knowledge. There is, however, an alternate way of performing the technique (involving ionic gradients and the resulting movement of atoms, thus the name), which would fit better with a Toa's power level. The way you described it, though, the move... isn't all that feasible.

I haven't even made a move yet. I'm just describing. As GH said it before, people don't need to know how gravity works to stop themselves from floating into space.Dat example.And about the cold stuff.Dat logic.

[Meta-Mind]

JL, your explanation for the ionic breezes was... not the best. JL's "creativity" would only apply if he knew of electrons, which you have specifically stated he didn't. Additionally, moving each individual electron would take far too much effort and focus, and probably would require subatomic physics knowledge. There is, however, an alternate way of performing the technique (involving ionic gradients and the resulting movement of atoms, thus the name), which would fit better with a Toa's power level. The way you described it, though, the move... isn't all that feasible.

I haven't even made a move yet. I'm just describing. As GH said it before, people don't need to know how gravity works to stop themselves from floating into space.

Let's look at they way you've described it, then.

IC: JLJL closed his eyes. He'd always had an idea, an affinity, a talent, for being...creative and clever. Never, though, has he used this in a battle situation. Today would be the first time. Closing his eyes, he focused. He had always knew that there were electrons in just about every particle in the world. Usually. And that happened in air, too.Part of the reason air repelled each other was because the particles were negatively charged from electrons. Something he could manipulate.

Creativity I'll give you, it could be referring to JL's feeling some kind of innate connection to every substance via electrons (except for perhaps plasma, because it's ionized?).They way the electron bit was phrased does seem to imply that JL knew of electrons.Again, the last bit would make little to no sense without a solid understanding of electrons.

Dat example.

Which example?

And about the cold stuff.Dat logic.

What about it?

[- JL -]

He's a Toa of electricity. I'm sure he knows some stuff about electricity; But not about atoms and particles and stuff.As for the logic, its.....weird.

[Light]

Bar open in Ta-Koro, name of Flaming Gafna. Tomar (one of my characters, but as long as all you're doing is ordering a drink, anyone has bunnying permission) is the bartender and owner. It serves heroes and villains alike, the only price to gain access a story, the only rule is to leave all fights at the door.

[- JL -]

So whose better at blowing stuff up?

[Light]

What do you mean?

[- JL -]

Who's better at blowing things up.

[BULiK]

Katuko. EW has been doing it so often it's really getting tiring, So I'm not giving him my vote. But Katuko blew up the hive. Or, at least, was the leader of the army that blew up the hive.

[NorikSigma]

No one will see this, but I will not be online until, say, next Thursday. So my characters are currently healing up in a burned-out hut in Pala-Koro. Okay, you guys can continue your arguments, I mean, discussions.

[- JL -]

I won't be online from Sunday to Friday. School trip to Langkawi.Hopefully I don't die of diseases. And hopefully I can get my chars away for some time.OR MAYBE! THE FIGHT ENDS!!!!!!!

[Constructelf]

You're going to Malaysia?! Lucky!

[EmperorWhenua]

Katuko. EW has been doing it so often it's really getting tiring, So I'm not giving him my vote. But Katuko blew up the hive. Or, at least, was the leader of the army that blew up the hive.

Soooo... Blowing a wall and a building up = too much? And there really are few ways to destroy something quickly without including explosions, and Nuju doesn't want to wait longer than need be to see the Kumu Islets wiped away, so explosions it is there, too! Basically what I'm saying is I'm not as notorious as you make me seem and not as uninspired as percieved. I'm not trying to argue a point -- "best as explosions" isn't an honorific worth fighting for -- but I'm just trying to quell some discord here.

[Nuju Metru]

Nuju doesn't want to wait longer than need be to see the Kumu Islets wiped away, so explosions it is there, too!

I actually think I specifically instructed him to "sink" them... Apologies for a lack of creativity on the destruction front.

[Constructelf]

So why you want Kumu gone?

[EmperorWhenua]

They will sink... After I knock their foundations out. :3

Edited November 9, 2012 by EmperorWhenua

[BenLuke]

With explosions

[- JL -]

from cow fart

[25K Now!]

JL, stop associating methane with cow flatulence. It's rather immature.

[Axilus Prime]

Yeah, associate it with Grunts, since they breathe the stuff from those triangle backpacks. XD

[- JL -]

Backpacks?Stupidest thing I've ever heard. Backpacks. Holding Methane.They're TANKS.And no, it's not immature; Too many cows and boom! Global warming. That's why American eats so many cows; They want to be eco-friendly.

[Axilus Prime]

Tanks that are on their backs.Besides, in TF reviews, they refer to any large mass on a figure's back as a "backpack." I think the term can be used a little more flexibly than the Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary puts it on the first definition.

[25K Now!]

I'll just slam my head against a pillow and wonder why you guys are going off topic again.Yes yes, Halo is a decent shooter. Talk about it in a more private fashion, like AIM or something, instead of filling up GD with such things.In other news, has anyone seen Lorax?

[- JL -]

He's probably playing Halo 4.

[AlchemistMayCry]

......I want to facepalm, but I don't think that will provide enough brain damage to erase this from my memory. Oh look, a shiny wall that I haven't broken yet...