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Agori Alphabet


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34 replies to this topic

#1 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Feb 20 2014 - 07:33 PM

Bionicle made a famous alphabet for the Matoran language, but never got around to it for the Agori language. This is my attempt to do so, based on the symbol for Glatorian Arena.
 
Agori Alphabet
 
Example (letter S):
s.png
 
Note: Numbers are easily discerned from letters in this system, because all numbers have the horizontal dash above the circle, and all letters lack that dash. Each number can be understood by counting the additions after the over-dash (just a circle and overdash means zero). Plus I added some special "multiple zero" characters, which could save space for big, rounded numbers.
 
 
Gallery when public (of individual characters, which can be pasted into for example a Word file to spell things out). To get them before it's public, view the S image above, and replace S with a letter, number, or one of the five words on the main image. (And here's the multiple-zero markers: hundred, thousand, ten thousand, hundred thousand.)
 
 
Besides just liking the idea of using the symbol, I had noticed there are three tall oval shapes on a map held by Kirbold in this image. I reasoned that this stands for numbers or letters, so they must be tall and narrow. (Not necessarily, but it works.)
 
Then, I noticed a statement on biosector01's Languages page that the Agori letters were similar in some ways to Matoran, so that Bomonga was able to translate it at one point. Matoran letters are of course based on English letters. So, I used a mix of English and Matoran patterns, whatever was closest for each one to fit into this system. Voila. (Well, I sketched out a bunch of different alternatives on paper first, but ended up liking this best.)
 
Edit: thousand marker in main image was wrong. Fixed.
 
Edit 2: Sketch Version!


Edited by bonesiii, Feb 25 2014 - 11:45 PM.

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#2 Offline JAG18

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Posted Feb 20 2014 - 08:14 PM

This is cool, I see how the Matoran language influenced this.  The only thing that bothers me is that it looks a lot harder to hand write than Matoran;

still your alphabet looks like it would make whoever came up with the Matoran alphabet proud.

 

What do you plan to do with it, if you don't mind me asking?


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#3 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Feb 20 2014 - 08:33 PM

The only thing that bothers me is that it looks a lot harder to hand write than Matoran

That's true, although the sketched version (which, sorry, I didn't bother to scan, but you can use your imagination :P) is actually somewhat easier in some respects (just the circle and then straight lines). This would be a decorative version for expensive signs and stuff. (With a chisel, they'd only need a circle tool and a line, whereas Matoran needs a large circle, small circle, and line.)

 

But anyways, it's intentional that it would be a bit trickier in some ways (takes up more space, etc.), as I figure there had to be a reason the Great Beings decided to invent Matoran instead of just using whatever they already had. :)

 

Anyways, thanks. :)

 

What do you plan to do with it, if you don't mind me asking?

I decided to try to make it after researching the Spirit's Wish Gate to try to draw it for my retelling, and I noticed the story states that the gate has the words "Spirit's Wish" atop it. I plan to figure out some supposed Agori word for "wish", and use some variant of "mata", and write it with these letters. (Not sure what specifically for either of those, though. Except I'll go with the usual modifier-second format, so "Wish (of) Spirit".) Beyond that, it's just for fun really, at least for now.


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#4 Offline Zox Tomana

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Posted Feb 20 2014 - 11:52 PM

Matoran itself is not exactly the most efficient writing system, I don't think, but it *looks* simpler than this (in fact I don't see the resemblance, myself). As to why the GB's used it, the alphabet and programming language may have been invented more to conceal their research than anything else. Either way, this does look cool, if a pain to actually write. Is the sketch version going to be scanned at all?

Btw, I think the phrase that Bomonga translated was stated to be an ancient Matoran dialect, rather than Agori.

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#5 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Feb 21 2014 - 07:42 AM

Btw, I think the phrase that Bomonga translated was stated to be an ancient Matoran dialect, rather than Agori.

No, here's the actual quote from the Languages page:

 
Alphabet

The written language of Spherus Magna and now Bara Magna differs from those of the Matoran Universe and is primarily called "Agori." However, there are some similarities, thus allowing Toa Hagah Bomonga to translate "Bara Magna" from the text inscribed in the walls of a tunnel deep beneath Metru Nui.

 

 

I do think I'll eventually scan a sketch version but the one I have is very rough and squeezed on the page next to rejected versions so I'll try to draw a better one first. To give you an idea of it, look at the letter 9 here. To sketch that, all you have to do in the drawn version is draw one circle, two boxy "U" shapes pointing up and mirrored down, and then a single line through the middle of it all. In that case it's actually thus easier than Matoran's number 9 (four strokes instead of six).

 

FTR, the similarities intended are that a circle forms the basis of each letter/number (but with the markings above and below instead of inside, making Matoran an advancement in efficiency in most cases), and that just as Matoran primarily puts dots in gaps where English letters would have open space, same idea here. For example, the Matoran letter "A" is a dot at the bottom of a circle, in the gap between the two stalks. So, this version of A imitates English's, so the same rule applies. (So, instead of Matoran needing to be directly off of English, it's actually off of Agori, which "happens" to resemble English.)

 

In the case of C, since in this system there's no right and left side, where Matoran has a dot in the right gap of the English letter, I instead represent the upper and lower ends of the line, making a sort of "(" shape. With D, Matoran is the same but with a vertical line in the middle, so here I put two central lines close to the circle, representing that. And so forth. The logic varies a bit from letter to letter too, to make it more like an alien language than just an English font.


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#6 Offline Arc

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Posted Feb 25 2014 - 03:43 PM

this looks far too complex. there are way too many strokes required for lots of the characters, and since they're all based on the same symbol they're extremely hard to tell apart - especially the ones where the only difference is a single, very small mark. not to mention that all of them require you to draw a circle, which is my main gripe about the Matoran alphabet, as it just doesn't lend itself to efficient writing.


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#7 Offline JAG18

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Posted Feb 25 2014 - 03:52 PM

Sketch version really helps bonesiii, I scrawled it down on a sheet of paper in case I need it sometime (don't ask me for what though).  Its still pretty cool.


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#8 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Feb 25 2014 - 05:53 PM

In case people missed the edit to the first post, sketch version is now up! :)

 

this looks far too complex. there are way too many strokes required for lots of the characters, and since they're all based on the same symbol they're extremely hard to tell apart - especially the ones where the only difference is a single, very small mark. not to mention that all of them require you to draw a circle, which is my main gripe about the Matoran alphabet, as it just doesn't lend itself to efficient writing.

Not to beat a dead horse but for discussion's sake, and out of curiosity, are you saying that thus it shouldn't be used? Have you considered the factors I mentioned in my other posts, about it making sense that Matoran should logically be an improvement on Agori (or else why would the GBs bother inventing Matoran)? Etc.?

 

Also, the aim here is not to make something to replace, for example, cursive English! For Matoran, for example, it's actually fairly easy for Matoran to make it compared to most alternatives, assuming they have chisels for it. (I've actually invented a three-in-one chisel with large circle, small circle, and line for it, made one in LDD, but haven't bothered trying to post it anywhere yet; if they actually had that, it would be really easy. This one would be slightly easier than Matoran in terms of not needing the small circle.) Point is, for a human to sketch something, yes, some people seem to have trouble with circles, but Matoran would likely have a chisel that makes a circle with one hammer strike.

 

But yes, this would still be less efficient than Matoran; that's intentional. :)

 

 

Re: Hard to tell apart -- I have always had the same problem with Matoran. Therefore IMO that is valid. Actually in some cases here I'd say this may be easier; A actually looks like an A for example.

 

Also, I have never got people that have trouble with circles. I'm still not entirely convinced that exists. :P I have always been amazed since I was a kid that there were people that were amazed that I could easily draw them. I think it's really a matter of lack of practice, self-confidence, etc. but who knows. In any event, if Agori actually had to sketch them, they likely would get enough practice to where it would be easy (and the circle doesn't have to be perfect after all). Incidentally, English involves circles and loops too, and few seem to have enough trouble with things like "o", "p" etc. to warrant reinventing English. Do the people that say they can't draw circles have to hesitate at every letter that isn't like "t" and "y"?

 

But I'm probably waaaaaay off base on that point. :P

 

In any case, I would welcome some attempt to make an Agori Alphabet in some other style. My first thought actually was to try to make something based on straight lines only, ironically; if you notice, there are actually some apparent symbols like that on that same map that that Agori is holding that I linked to in the first post, so in terms of theoretical value, that could be just as valid as mine. I just liked the idea of the circles and building on them on the outside instead of inside like Matoran does, and the look of disconnected bits. (It also looks really cool written small, IMO.)

 

If someone makes an alternative idea, I might even use it as an alternate dialect script in my retelling's art. (If it seems valid theoretically speaking, etc.)

 

FTR, I interpreted those other symbols on that map as something other than letters/numbers (but who knows). Most likely location symbols.

 

 

As far as the one stroke difference thing, actually I took care to make sure the vast majority had at least two strokes different. There are a few exceptions (J and L for example) but those strokes' placement are largely obviously similar to English (J and L again as good examples). And English has many such things too -- P and R, E and F, m and n, etc.

 

Sketch version really helps bonesiii, I scrawled it down on a sheet of paper in case I need it sometime (don't ask me for what though).  Its still pretty cool.

Thanks. Glad you like the sketch version. ^_^


Edited by bonesiii, Feb 25 2014 - 05:59 PM.

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#9 Offline Arc

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Posted Feb 25 2014 - 09:38 PM

Bones, your posts are too long.

In case people missed the edit to the first post, sketch version is now up! :)

 

this looks far too complex. there are way too many strokes required for lots of the characters, and since they're all based on the same symbol they're extremely hard to tell apart - especially the ones where the only difference is a single, very small mark. not to mention that all of them require you to draw a circle, which is my main gripe about the Matoran alphabet, as it just doesn't lend itself to efficient writing.

Not to beat a dead horse but for discussion's sake, and out of curiosity, are you saying that thus it shouldn't be used? Have you considered the factors I mentioned in my other posts, about it making sense that Matoran should logically be an improvement on Agori (or else why would the GBs bother inventing Matoran)? Etc.?

 

Also, the aim here is not to make something to replace, for example, cursive English! For Matoran, for example, it's actually fairly easy for Matoran to make it compared to most alternatives, assuming they have chisels for it. (I've actually invented a three-in-one chisel with large circle, small circle, and line for it, made one in LDD, but haven't bothered trying to post it anywhere yet; if they actually had that, it would be really easy. This one would be slightly easier than Matoran in terms of not needing the small circle.) Point is, for a human to sketch something, yes, some people seem to have trouble with circles, but Matoran would likely have a chisel that makes a circle with one hammer strike.

 

But yes, this would still be less efficient than Matoran; that's intentional. :)

saying that you intentionally made this language hard to write as "Matoran is an improvement" seems just like a bad excuse to me.

 

 

Re: Hard to tell apart -- I have always had the same problem with Matoran. Therefore IMO that is valid. Actually in some cases here I'd say this may be easier; A actually looks like an A for example.

the Matoran alphabet was also designed to (for the most part) look like our letters. and just because Matoran is hard for you to read doesn't mean you should intentionally make your alphabet hard to read?? that's pretty shoddy logic if you ask me.

 

Also, I have never got people that have trouble with circles. I'm still not entirely convinced that exists.  :P I have always been amazed since I was a kid that there were people that were amazed that I could easily draw them. I think it's really a matter of lack of practice, self-confidence, etc. but who knows. In any event, if Agori actually had to sketch them, they likely would get enough practice to where it would be easy (and the circle doesn't have to be perfect after all). Incidentally, English involves circles and loops too, and few seem to have enough trouble with things like "o", "p" etc. to warrant reinventing English. Do the people that say they can't draw circles have to hesitate at every letter that isn't like "t" and "y"?

 

But I'm probably waaaaaay off base on that point.  :P

you misunderstand. the problem isn't drawing circles (although many people do in fact have trouble with them), it's that drawing a complete circle for every single letter is repetitive and not at all conducive to actually writing more than a single word.

 

 

As far as the one stroke difference thing, actually I took care to make sure the vast majority had at least two strokes different. There are a few exceptions (J and L for example) but those strokes' placement are largely obviously similar to English (J and L again as good examples). And English has many such things too -- P and R, E and F, m and n, etc.

fair point.

 

another thing. there's quite a lot of space between the pieces of certain characters. would that be fixed in handwriting?


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#10 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Feb 25 2014 - 11:03 PM

saying that you intentionally made this language hard to write as "Matoran is an improvement" seems just like a bad excuse to me.

Okay, apparently this means you actually don't like it. My bad if I overstepped my bounds in being unsure if that's how you meant it. :) (Though again, I'm just prattling on for discussion value mainly 'cuz this stuff is fun to think about, don't take it too seriously. :P) But I was trying to be theoretical with this, so I did feel it was important to make sure Matoran would be more efficient. I don't mean it as an excuse; it was what I set out to do. :)

 

Does that help?

 

the Matoran alphabet was also designed to (for the most part) look like our letters. and just because Matoran is hard for you to read doesn't mean you should intentionally make your alphabet hard to read?? that's pretty shoddy logic if you ask me.

I am unsure what approach you are using here. Just reading how you write this at face value, it comes across as assuming we have to have actual strong negative (or positive) emotional reactions to this. I'm probably just reading too much into your wording though and you only mean it as constructive criticism. :) You seem to have ascribed a negative emotional motivation to me in part of this, but I assure you that's not the case. In any event, lots of real-world lettering can be hard to read for those used to English, and not sure how I feel about the idea that fictional languages shouldn't sometimes use this as one valid approach. :shrugs: Pardon if I have misread where you're coming from. :)

 

you misunderstand. the problem isn't drawing circles (although many people do in fact have trouble with them), it's that drawing a complete circle for every single letter is repetitive and not at all conducive to actually writing more than a single word.

While this is true, and I understand you're saying you disliked this about Matoran too, wouldn't you agree that since Matoran did this, it's reasonable for Agori to do it as well? Retconning the Matoran alphabet isn't available to me, so since I wanted this to be plausible canonically I have to take it as a given that circles for everything are valid. Right? The complaint about circles thus should be directed at LEGO, if at all, not me, really...

 

Originally I wasn't sure if the all-circles approach was the direction I would go in or something else, but I wanted to base it on symbols for Bara Magna in the canon, and there are really only a few available to us. Of those, the one with a circle in the center appeals to me the most by far, and is a natural fit with Matoran (plus there's the whole "Spherus Magna" angle). So that was my thinking in why I went that direction. :)

 

Also, the only curves in this system at all are the circles, so I really don't see why it would be hard. Any old looping shape is going to be clear to the reader, whether it ends up looking like a spiral or the number 6 or even a U lol. Actually, you could use a square instead of a circle and it really wouldn't change the logic of the system in this case. It would just be like a different font. The circle itself could even just be one dialect version. Some might leave off the "root" shape entirely (except, maybe, for O, for example). Could even vary by individual, like different handwriting styles.

 

Food for thought perhaps. ^_^

 

 

Edit: I apparently missed your last question, sorry. Well, the way I wrote it for my Spirit's Wish gate image has very little space so as to be compact. I actually greatly prefer it that way over how it looks in the large sketch above, but I have no idea if that's just my taste or what. (That goes with Chapter 10 of my story, posting first chapter tomorrow, and then weekly, to give an idea of when you'll be able to see it and judge for yourself.) Also wrote out a few of the non-canon characters' names with it and I really like the look of it. Actually not that hard at all IMO, with just a little practice. But again, having the same brain that came up with it very well might taint that brain's ability to judge how this would be for others, so unsure.


Edited by bonesiii, Feb 25 2014 - 11:30 PM.

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#11 Offline fishers64

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Posted Feb 26 2014 - 01:02 AM



In any case, I would welcome some attempt to make an Agori Alphabet in some other style. My first thought actually was to try to make something based on straight lines only, ironically; if you notice, there are actually some apparent symbols like that on that same map that that Agori is holding that I linked to in the first post, so in terms of theoretical value, that could be just as valid as mine. I just liked the idea of the circles and building on them on the outside instead of inside like Matoran does, and the look of disconnected bits. (It also looks really cool written small, IMO.)

 

If someone makes an alternative idea, I might even use it as an alternate dialect script in my retelling's art. (If it seems valid theoretically speaking, etc.)

 

FTR, I interpreted those other symbols on that map as something other than letters/numbers (but who knows). Most likely location symbols.

It's also possible that a "straight line" version of the language could exist as a sort of shorthand. I've head of ancient "shorthands" for ancient languages such as Greek. These days we use shorthands for typing on computers and phones, even, so it isn't out of the question. 

 

In any event, it would seem easy to translate this into a straight-line shorthand (at least, to me anyway). Draw two lines in lieu of the circle, and add the differentiating symbols. That way you need only one chisel if you're in a hurry. :shrugs:

 

Or the lines could just be ancient Agori, and the language evolved to appear differently, so some enterprising individual decided to translate it into modern Agori. Although why a language would evolve the use of circles strikes me as odd, so I prefer the shorthand explanation.

 

Edit: Just for fun: Comparison Alphabet

 

And the hat wars were lost to history...

 

The last one was to test out the "linguistic evolution" theory. However, the test fails because I'm used to English letters; my shorthand looks more like English to me, as does Matoran. This is because, for Matoran, the circle has no effect on which letter it is, and it's outside the letter itself, so my visual processing ignores it.

 

With the Agori you have developed, my brain is forced to process the circles, which means I have to transliterate every single letter, every time I write and look at it. It's a "brain screw" - those symbols don't register as "letters", so I can't "read" it. The only explanation I can think of it the circles in the middle, but that's just me... 


Edited by fishers64, Feb 26 2014 - 12:09 PM.

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14126183966_9690cb0da3_z.jpg


#12 Offline Arc

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Posted Feb 26 2014 - 03:00 PM

 

saying that you intentionally made this language hard to write as "Matoran is an improvement" seems just like a bad excuse to me.

Okay, apparently this means you actually don't like it. My bad if I overstepped my bounds in being unsure if that's how you meant it. :) (Though again, I'm just prattling on for discussion value mainly 'cuz this stuff is fun to think about, don't take it too seriously. :P) But I was trying to be theoretical with this, so I did feel it was important to make sure Matoran would be more efficient. I don't mean it as an excuse; it was what I set out to do. :)

 

Does that help?

you're telling me not to take this too seriously, and yet you're the one who was serious enough about this that you wanted to make this alphabet worse than Matoran intentionally.

I am unsure what approach you are using here. Just reading how you write this at face value, it comes across as assuming we have to have actual strong negative (or positive) emotional reactions to this. I'm probably just reading too much into your wording though and you only mean it as constructive criticism.  :) You seem to have ascribed a negative emotional motivation to me in part of this, but I assure you that's not the case. In any event, lots of real-world lettering can be hard to read for those used to English, and not sure how I feel about the idea that fictional languages shouldn't sometimes use this as one valid approach.  :shrugs: Pardon if I have misread where you're coming from.  :)

what does this block of text even mean

While this is true, and I understand you're saying you disliked this about Matoran too, wouldn't you agree that since Matoran did this, it's reasonable for Agori to do it as well? Retconning the Matoran alphabet isn't available to me, so since I wanted this to be plausible canonically I have to take it as a given that circles for everything are valid. Right? The complaint about circles thus should be directed at LEGO, if at all, not me, really...

have you seen the shorthand Matoran alphabet? it's fan-made, but much nicer, seeing as it's the Matoran alphabet without the circles. and i wasn't directing my complaint about Matoran at you...? i don't know where you're getting that.

 

oh, and did you miss the part where i said that the main problem with the circles is that there's one on every character? it's not the shape itself that's the problem, it's the repetition.

But again, having the same brain that came up with it very well might taint that brain's ability to judge how this would be for others, so unsure.

yes. that's kinda what i've been trying to get across.


Edited by Arc, Feb 26 2014 - 03:01 PM.

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#13 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Feb 26 2014 - 03:18 PM

oh, and did you miss the part where i said that the main problem with the circles is that there's one on every character? it's not the shape itself that's the problem, it's the repetition.

And I'm asking if you missed the point that I and at least one other person here have mentioned, that since circles are also present on every Matoran letter, it seems odd to think the Great Beings would add that if the previous alphabet didn't have it? The premise that circles on every letter is a bad thing thus seems to argue that Agori should have them, not the other way around. :) Because it comes first, chronologically (in-story). Actually, that's a pretty standard rule for languages, both fictional and real -- they tend to be more complex and harder to make the farther back in history you go. (Besides, just look at Mandarin... I mean, it's very plausible for there to be 'difficult' languages!)

 

I don't know that I'm saying you shouldn't take it seriously -- just please keep in mind it's possible that you may be confusing a personal preference for an objective problem. :) I'm all for your personal taste, you just seemed to actually be upset by it, so I hoped perhaps I could help ease that. ^_^ I'm just hoping you're trying to be constructive, is all. :)

 

Also, have you missed that forming perfect circles here is not even required? Also, the circles not being present is part of how this system indicates punctuation, so technically they're not in everything. Nothing wrong with some languages, like English, having them in only some letters, but by the same token, why should every language be just like English? Personally I would find that boring.

 

I hadn't happened to see the circle-less version of Matoran, but the idea has occurred to me. But it would be better to use this as a new thing on the Reformed Spherus Magna than as ancient Agori, no? As it would be yet another improvement. (Actually, if you have a link, I might want to look into asking permission to use it that way if possible for the end of the retelling. :))

 

fishers, yeah, I was also thinking merely just one horizontal line in place of the circle might work (though I think for O you would still need a curvey shape to differentiate from the dash). I like your shorthand; I may use that somewhere. ^_^

 

 

Edit: Here's just one image showing only a tiny portion of Mandarin to illustrate the point! The fact that these aren't letters but words (so often is more efficient) hardly makes it any easier, as it greatly increases the number of symbols needed, and most are very complex. By contrast this is very easy and not complicated at all. It's harder than English, but also easier than for example Egyptian heiroglyphics.

 

Part of this may simply be that I've always been very into linguistics and fictional lettering, maybe it's not a subject you're as familiar with, which is valid, but may be affecting your reaction. Besides, Greg has always said that Bionicle intentionally requires work to understand. The operating principle is usually that this means higher quality. (But even so, your preference is still valid!)


Edited by bonesiii, Feb 26 2014 - 04:15 PM.

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#14 Offline Apple lord

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Posted Feb 26 2014 - 03:37 PM

Just what I needed :D


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#15 Offline Arc

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Posted Feb 26 2014 - 03:47 PM

 

oh, and did you miss the part where i said that the main problem with the circles is that there's one on every character? it's not the shape itself that's the problem, it's the repetition.

And I'm asking if you missed the point that I and some others here have mentioned, that since circles are also present on every Matoran letter, it seems odd to think the Great Beings would add that if the previous alphabet didn't have it? The premise that circles on every letter is a bad thing thus seems to argue that Agori should have them, not the other way around. :) Because it comes first, chronologically (in-story). Actually, that's a pretty standard rule for languages, both fictional and real -- they tend to be more complex and harder to make the farther back in history you go. (Besides, just look at Mandarin... I mean, it's very plausible for there to be 'difficult' languages!)

that's a fair point, i guess. still doesn't make it any better of an alphabet, just canonically accurate. xP

 

 

I don't know that I'm saying you shouldn't take it seriously

shall i quote you?

 

 

don't take it too seriously

anyway.

 

 

just please keep in mind it's possible that you may be confusing a personal preference for an objective problem.  :) I'm all for your personal taste, you just seemed to actually be upset by it, so I hoped perhaps I could help ease that.  ^_^ I'm just hoping you're trying to be constructive, is all.  :)

i'm pretty sure lots of people have noted the problem with the circles; that's why the shorthand exists. i am trying to be constructive, but you seem to be avoiding my criticism.

 

 

Also, have you missed that forming perfect circles here is not even required? Also, the circles not being present is part of how this system indicates punctuation, so technically they're not in everything. Nothing wrong with some languages, like English, having them in only some letters, but by the same token, why should every language be just like English? Personally I would find that boring.

you're twisting my words; i said nothing about perfect circles.

 

don't nitpick about punctuation, obviously that doesn't count.

 

i'm not saying it should be just like English?

 

 

I hadn't happened to see the circle-less version of Matoran, but the idea has occurred to me. But it would be better to use this as a new thing on the Reformed Spherus Magna than as ancient Agori, no? As it would be yet another improvement. (Actually, if you have a link, I might want to look into asking permission to use it that way if possible for the end of the retelling.  :))

i...wasn't suggesting using Matoran shorthand in place of this alphabet? how did you get that from what i said.

 

also, i would show you the picture, but i unfortunately don't have a link. it's floating around on Tumblr; if you look far enough back in the Bionicle tag i'm sure you'll find it.


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#16 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Feb 26 2014 - 04:08 PM

Quote

I don't know that I'm saying you shouldn't take it seriously

shall i quote you?

Quote

don't take it too seriously

anyway.

That was referring to my blathering on in reply to your post, not to the alphabet idea itself. :P

 

i...wasn't suggesting using Matoran shorthand in place of this alphabet? how did you get that from what i said.

Arc, I wasn't going to mention this, but given this, it does seem you're not paying close enough attention in some places to what I'm saying. I said that I could use Matoran shorthand as an invention after Spherus Magna is reformed, not in place of this. Please relax and read things through carefully to make sure you know what I meant before reacting, okay? :) You seem to think that I'm the one missing your points, but it appears it is the other way around (this is a common mistake I've noticed people making in a wide variety of context; one person missing points will tend to assume the other who pays more attention is actually paying less attention).

 

I'm not missing your points, I just think the one I've repeated several times now (that Matoran should be an improvement over Agori) overrides most of them. :) I haven't yet seen you acknowledge that this makes sense, which is puzzling.

 

don't nitpick about punctuation, obviously that doesn't count.

What do you mean?

 

you're twisting my words; i said nothing about perfect circles.

This appears to possibly be a good example of how you could have a better approach. Why not instead try to be friendly, and just acknowledge that it's good that this doesn't require perfect circles? I brought it up because you had apparently made it an issue earlier:

 

not to mention that all of them require you to draw a circle
the problem isn't drawing circles (although many people do in fact have trouble with them), it's that drawing a complete circle for every single letter is repetitive

Bold added to make it clear which parts I was responding to. :) You aren't required to draw circles, they don't need to be complete, and having trouble drawing them is irrelevant to this system. That's what I'm saying. Make sense? :)

 

This doesn't override the repetition point, but I have responded to that already too.

 

It is not my place to say the critic of art is wrong to dislike the art, far from it, but I've always thought it is unwise to make illogical arguments to try to defend an already-valid taste (they don't really need defense; different people's preferences naturally vary, and BTW this is a good thing, re: my Society Variety theory, but this isn't the place to get into that), so IMO apparent inaccuracies etc. should be on the table for intelligent discussion. If nothing else it might help you like it a little better. :P


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#17 Offline Arc

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Posted Feb 26 2014 - 04:20 PM

 

 

I said that I could use Matoran shorthand as an invention after Spherus Magna is reformed, not in place of this.

you phrased it rather poorly if that's the case. i misunderstood.

 

 

I'm not missing your points, I just think the one I've repeated several times now (that Matoran should be an improvement over Agori) overrides most of them.  :) I haven't yet seen you acknowledge that this makes sense, which is puzzling.

i did acknowledge that, actually. twice.

 

 

This appears to possibly be a good example of how you could have a better approach. Why not instead try to be friendly, and just acknowledge that it's good that this doesn't require perfect circles? I brought it up because you had apparently made it an issue earlier:

please stop being so condescending. i didn't make it an issue at all. i'm extremely confused as to why you keep coming back to this.

 

 

You aren't required to draw circles

what

 

 

It is not my place to say the critic of art is wrong to dislike the art, far from it, but I've always thought it is unwise to make illogical arguments to try to defend an already-valid taste (they don't really need defense; different people's preferences naturally vary, and BTW this is a good thing, re: my Society Variety theory, but this isn't the place to get into that), so IMO apparent inaccuracies etc. should be on the table for intelligent discussion. If nothing else it might help you like it a little better.  :P

have i mentioned that you're being extremely condescending?

 

i'm done. i don't want to discuss this any more. i have admitted that you were right about both the canon aspect of the alphabet and the stroke count, and you don't seem to have acknowledged that. now if you'll excuse me, i'm going to go and ponder why i thought getting into a discussion like this in the first place was worth it.


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#18 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Feb 26 2014 - 04:48 PM

i did acknowledge that, actually. twice.

Okay... well apparently then I was missing things. :P Anywho, I think we probably understand where the other is coming from now. Thanks for bearing with me. :)

 

*reads on* ?? Well, I thought we were having a good moment there, but apparently not. Arc, it is unfortunate that you have chosen to respond in such a negative way. If this was in anyone else's art topic, quite frankly, I would probably be putting on my proverbial moderator's hat and PMing you about this. I still might. My intention was not to be condescending; I feel I have been far more patient in tone toward you than you were toward me. :( It is sad to see that you apparently do not appreciate that.

 

Such a fighting type thing should never be warranted about this kind of thing -- as seriously as we have agreed we can take it, the point of all of this is entertainment, not to get angry at people. If something isn't fun for you, it's generally best to just acknowledge that it's not your cup of tea, express that, and certainly have a polite, benefit-of-the-doubt type discussion about it too, but not to insult others or throw accusations around. (And the importance of having a positive attitude and being friendly to others is also something we should all take seriously.)

 

Let's please move on and stop making this personal. Okay? For my part, if I did wrong in reacting to you, I apologize. I did not expect such an apparently antagonistic post as yours; this is not normal on BZP, and it is always awkward if someone does something like that in something I make, since this is also my jurisdiction and normally my job is to moderate that kind of thing in others' topics. Also, please know that I forgive it all. :) No hard feelings? :)

 

 

Edit: Also, since you said that you apparently missed why I said 'don't take this seriously' (my response to your post) -- for the record, my intent was simply to try to explain where I was coming from when I made this, before seeing your post. Not to disagree with your very good points. :) Make sense? (Although I still think the "circle in every letter" thing works because LEGO thinks it does and they'd know better than any of us :P -- but it seems we agree on that now, although it certainly has its downsides.) My saying that was supposed to clue you in that I wasn't saying you didn't have good points.

 

That is always my intent in responding to criticism of creative works; not to disagree per se with the criticism, but in case bringing up the subject makes anyone wonder why I did it the other way, to answer that implied question. Please remember that I have already changed some previous art in light of very apt criticisms for this retelling project (the Tren Krom thing), so I don't accept the attitude expressed toward me that I'm somehow being stubborn with that kind of thing. I think it's just an unfortunate failure to communicate, yes, probably mostly my fault. :P

 

Also, it seems a bit unfair of you to begin your second response by complaining about how long my post was and then criticize me for not adding to its length by acknowledging other things you said. :) If I don't post disagreement with something, please understand that I read it and likely agreed with it. ^_^


Edited by bonesiii, Feb 26 2014 - 09:44 PM.

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#19 Offline fishers64

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Posted Feb 26 2014 - 06:16 PM

Here's a Matoran Shorthand. :shrugs:

 

(I do not understand the discussion above. At all. Too much illogic, referring to things that aren't there...It's enough to give me a headache.) 


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#20 Offline JAG18

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Posted Feb 26 2014 - 06:30 PM

(I do not understand the discussion above. At all. Too much illogic, referring to things that aren't there...It's enough to give me a headache.) 

Don't worry fishers, believe me you're not the only one.   :P

 

Anyway, bonesiii, I'm actually finding some uses for this, like trying to make an avatar with Agori words scratched into his helmet.  I'm sure a lot of people (Well, anyone who finds this topic anyway) will be able to find a use for Agori sometime in the future. 


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#21 Offline Arc

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Posted Feb 26 2014 - 08:21 PM

 

(I do not understand the discussion above. At all. Too much illogic, referring to things that aren't there...It's enough to give me a headache.) 

Don't worry fishers, believe me you're not the only one.   :P

i agree.


Edited by Arc, Feb 26 2014 - 08:21 PM.

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#22 Online Reznas

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Posted Mar 01 2014 - 01:13 PM

I think the problem challenging a a couple of you is that no differentiation has been made between a personal desire to write in a such an alphabet and whether or not the concept is actually a valid representation of an ancient form of writing that somewhat resembles Matoran writing. These are two different things. Personally, I would prefer not to use such a written alphabet. It definitely has a complexity to it, and writing in symbols has never been my cup of tea. But based on what I have perceived from the present discussion, bonesiii intended this Agori alphabet to be a conceptual interpretation. Obviously the Agori had to have had a unique language and/or writing system. Canonically, the Agori preceded the Matoran, and, again, as bonesiii already stated, language has certainly developed over the years, simplying complexities and making writing forms easier and smoother. It isn't at all presumptuous to assume that Agori would be far more complex than the "modernized" Matoran that followed it. I fail to see a problem with intentionally complexifying a writing system because it is supposed to be complex. 

 

The concept is quite nice. The style really does resonate with the culture of the Agori. I think the idea of building on each part systematically for each new symbol is very nice--it's unique. Comparing Matoran with your Agori concept, I would say the Agori  is almost an upgrade. I really do like what you did, and it works. It most certainly works.

 

I also very much like the shorthand equivalent that fishers shared. :)

 

-Rez


Edited by Reznas, Mar 01 2014 - 01:14 PM.

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#23 Offline Katuko

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Posted Mar 01 2014 - 03:33 PM

Eh, I agree the symbols look kinda cool, with the pointy edges and such, but it does not look like any form of usable alphabet. Even considering that it might be more complex than Matoran, it's still too much "coolification" with the extra lines and too little usefulness, I feel. Each letter - while I can somewhat see the Latin base in some of them - spend way too much space with the massive O in the center. If the actual letter is made from the lines around, I question why anyone would ever include a redundant O in every single letter. Matoran at least has the lines inside the circle, neatly confining them to a monospace font. This can also be monospace, but it spends more vertical space and gains nothing from it. The "shorthand" version therefore looks a lot better, but then again I can spot a bit too many floating diagonal lines for my tastes.

Most languages that have complex symbols use these for words, rather than sounds. Chinese, Japanese and Korean are well known for this. Take note that each of the "word" symbols are compounds, put together either by lesser letters/sounds, or by different shapes into a "logical" pattern meant to visualize their meaning. Think of it as an abstract version of hieroglyphs. So while there are lots of lines and shapes, a native reader can usually understand even symbols they haven't seen before by "translating" their parts.

The Latin alphabet at most uses 4 strokes - in E, M and W, and even then you don't need to lift your pencil so it's technically one stroke. If we count a "stroke" as "I have to lift the pencil", then the most strokes are found in E. Still 4. The Norwegian Æ, while our most complex letter, can also be done in 4 (up/down for an A, then 3 horizontal lines as the E). In Japanese, the more complex letters/symbols that are commonplace have 3-6 strokes. The katakana and hiragana character sets use 1-4. Even one of the most complex-looking hiragana characters (looks like this, and has fallen out of use) can be written in a single stroke. In this Agori alphabet, though, I see a lot of "annoying" characters with 5-6 strokes each.

Then they all look similar, which would make a full page text blend together unless you paid very good attention. Matoran has this problem as well, but at least there the characters are contained inside the circle instead of having bits and pieces floating away from themselves. I think the symbols could stand to have similar elements such as the sharp diagonals, but they could also stand to lose the overly similar and redundant circles. At first I thought the straight lines were meant to signify a language better written by someone with a chisel on a stone tablet, but then I realized that every single letter also had a circle, so that could not be the reason. As mentioned, the shorthand versions looks a lot better.

I'd like to mention that runes, the Norse alphabet, was characterized by some rather tall characters with sharp angles - good for chiseling into a stone block or carving on wood. At a glance a page full of runes can also seem a bit complex, and some liked to adorn them with a few "extras" to make it all pretty. Y'know, like a medieval monk writing the first letter of a page as a thick piece of patterned artwork. Still, the runes also were limited in the number of strokes per character, with 4 again being the most I could find an example of. Written languages tend to be like that - too much work, and people won't bother. Languages have been simplified over time, even the letters we know today. Here, people would use the shorthand instead. And if shorthand is what you use, why not make it the default? :)

Edited by Katuko, Mar 02 2014 - 07:59 AM.

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#24 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 03 2014 - 10:03 PM

I just noticed that there are TONS of symbols in the background (and some foreground) of this image from the Mata Nui Saga:

 

http://biosector01.c...pace_Travel.jpg

 

Now it's confusing why he would be displaying such symbols as he presumably uses Matoran language, but maybe we could build an alternate Agori alphabet from them? (Really, if he uses such symbols it's possible this is the GBs' own alphabet for Matoran and may even use the same letters as Agori, and the other is just used out of convenience for chisels for Matoran and a possible alternate font?) This kinda blasts some of my above reasoning out of the water.

 

I shall have to think about this......

 

Maybe I could compromise, though, with these shapes being more things built off of the circles in "proper" Agori (alternate) or whatever, so there could be a version with the circles and without, and what I have here could just be a more ancient form. Anywho, looks like I can now agree that canon-fitting Agori has some room for further development...

 

Some of the symbols actually look similar to fishers' shorthand. We could match them up.

 

Likey idea, folks? :)

 

 

Edit: Didn't see Katuko's post. I largely agree, but some nitpicks:

 

it spends more vertical space and gains nothing from it.

Actually it gains being thinner horizontally. :) The circle can be much smaller and only signifies that it's a letter/number instead of punctuation. This means you could fit much more on a page than Matoran. I'd actually have to say that on that point at least it is better than it (but again, it is supposed to be worse in other ways, at least as an ancient version).

 

Regarding your points about other complex symbols still being simpler, the problem is most of those are modern derivations more comparable to Matoran. Ancient heiroglyphics tended to be much more complex. This is aimed to be somewhere in between. :)

 

Well, following isn't a nitpick but wanted to highlight it anyways; I do agree with it:

 

Then they all look similar, which would make a full page text blend together unless you paid very good attention.

Although this is not as obvious a problem when you use the sketch version on a smaller scale. :)

 

At first I thought the straight lines were meant to signify a language better written by someone with a chisel on a stone tablet, but then I realized that every single letter also had a circle, so that could not be the reason.

Not sure I see what you mean by "that" in the final clause, unless you missed what I said somewhere above about chisels with circles. :) That's one of the other points where it's simpler than Matoran; I have invented a three-way chisel with line, large circle, and small circle (they and their opposing heads for hammers to hit radiate in six directions like pointing to the six faces of a cube). This would only require line and circle. So yes, it is to make it more efficient for chisels, it just would take more than a simple line-only chisel (either a two-way chisel or two alternating chisels).

 

You can chisel (or sketch) the number of circles you need first, and then use the other chisel (or draw the lines) to fill in the details. :) In fact it would be better to chisel a small circle only if you're going to chisel circles than a large one, as you'd need to hammer with more force to do a large one properly. So on that point again it's better than Matoran (but Matoran still has less strikes required overall).


Edited by bonesiii, Mar 03 2014 - 10:39 PM.

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#25 Offline fishers64

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Posted Mar 03 2014 - 10:08 PM

Aren't those things just mathematical symbols?


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#26 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 03 2014 - 10:40 PM

I'm not sure. I noticed the infinity symbol, but others seem different. Been a while since I've reviewed math symbols though. :P Well, there's also an equals sign, but then there's a version of it flipped vertically at one point.


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#27 Offline Zox Tomana

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Posted Mar 16 2014 - 05:33 PM

Bones, I just wanted to drop by and make a note on your comment about ancient hieroglyphics being really complicated: that is entirely true, which is why hieratic and demotic scripts were developed in parallel so that people could actually write and carry out business without having to take 30 minutes to make a single entry in a ledger. I would also point you to the oldest confirmed consonantal alphabet, which is not as visually complicated as certain modern alphabets are. The idea that older = more complex is not one that you should really be basing your thoughts on. Older just means different. You could easily make an argument that *our* alphabet may be more simple than it used to be in its roots, but you also need to look at the wider variety of alphabets out there like Arabic or Hebrew that are not exactly simple, or even the Hangul script of the Korean language. The latter is very much visually complicated (to my eyes at least), and it is a true alphabet, and a modern alphabet too.

That being said, the sketch version definitely looks less cumbersome than the...wall version or whatever we want to call it. Proper words are beginning to fail me.

Edited by Zox, Mar 16 2014 - 05:35 PM.

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#28 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 16 2014 - 06:36 PM

That's not the point, Zox, but that in "Golden Ages" languages do tend to become really complex; simple is often frowned on as lazy in those sorts of eras, and later as people seek efficiency, realizing that they can work hard to achieve other things while streamlining basics, they tend to get simpler again. :) This would be a "late ancient" advanced version, in the heyday of the Great Beings' rule prior to the Element Lords, Shattering, etc.


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#29 Offline Wrinkledlion X

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Posted Mar 22 2014 - 03:16 PM

(I don't know if this conversation is still ongoing, but I find language really interesting, soooo)

 

I love the idea of creating an Agori language by "back-dating" Matoran script, but you seem to be treating Matoran script as a natural evolution of its ancestral language when in fact it's a constructed programming language. This fact can explain a lot of its less practical design elements—I'd imagine those circles were put in place by the Great Beings so that they could pack symbols together with perfect density and uniformity. Matoran weren't even meant to be truly sentient beings, so the original intent of the language may have been more like a barcode, communicating a lot of information very quickly and systematically. It wasn't meant to be carved into rocks in caves, that's just where it ended up.

 

We know that there IS a relationship between the Agori and Matoran languages, but I'd imagine that Agori would be a lot more organic and irregular, with lots of different shapes and silhouettes that the GBs "tamed" with circles. In fact there are probably not many round shapes at all, since, like Runes and Old Italic script, Agori was carved mostly into stone (though correct me if I'm wrong on that). I think the best approach to developing it would be to back-date fishers64's Matoran Shorthand, which presents a Matoran language unbound from its contrived circular template. (It's uncomfortably close to English when you get rid of the circles, but we can try to make that look like a coincidence.)

 

Bonesiii, your artistic style tends to be really baroque, and I've always dug that. But I think that in this case, your love of aesthetics makes your Agori feel like a constructed language rather than a natural one. 


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#30 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 22 2014 - 03:57 PM

I'd imagine those circles were put in place by the Great Beings so that they could pack symbols together with perfect density and uniformity

My thinking was that since the planet was named Spherus Magna, and at least one symbol looks like a circle (the symbol I based this on) with structures building off of it, this was a plausible theory for how the circle came about. :) I thought of two main directions to go based on the fact that Bomonga was able to translate Agori to Matoran; first, get rid of the circles and use the interior shapes of Matoran. But for that to work there would still need to be some kind of a base, so it doesn't really make sense. Second, just put things on the outside of circles (again, like the symbol we were given). :)


There are other ways that may be just as plausible, but that was my thinking. :) If you take out the circles (or some consistent base equivalent; keep in mind circles aren't essential for this system), the letters would still have to be translatable by sight from Agori to Matoran somehow. It could be done but my guess is, if fans will have such disagreements about even a basic theoretical system like this, likely there would be even more about one that deviates even farther.

 

It wasn't meant to be carved into rocks in caves, that's just where it ended up.

Where are you getting that? I'm not aware that we know any such thing. Why wouldn't they?


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#31 Offline Wrinkledlion X

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Posted Mar 22 2014 - 04:15 PM

It wasn't meant to be carved into rocks in caves, that's just where it ended up.

Where are you getting that? I'm not aware that we know any such thing. Why wouldn't they?

 

 

I mean to say that the Matoran were intended to be automatons laboring in Metru Nui, and wouldn't have used it as a vernacular writing system the way we use English, seeing as they weren't even meant to have free will. Not to mention that in a technological environment, there's no need to carve your words with a hammer and chisel. They would either have digital readouts or manufactured signage that presented the language with perfect density and uniformity.

 

I'm sure the GBs never imagined their creations would be living in mud huts on the surface of Mata Nui, though, because it isn't a language that's well-suited to carving by hand.

 

 

 

I thought of two main directions to go based on the fact that Bomonga was able to translate Agori to Matoran; first, get rid of the circles and use the interior shapes of Matoran. But for that to work there would still need to be some kind of a base, so it doesn't really make sense.

 

What do you mean by a base? The base for me is the character within the circle—take away the circle, and the letters are still clearly identifiable. In fact, most languages in the real world don't have a "base" common to all letters. Maybe ancient Ogham script, but that's the only example that comes to mind.

 

Generally, having one constant motif is a sign that the language is artificially constructed. That's appropriate for Matoran, since the GBs designed it, but not for a naturally-occurring language. Take away the artificially-imposed circle motifs of Matoran, and it makes sense that you'd be left with something closer to its ancestor. (Because this is a real-world toyline, you get letters that are actually based on English. Canonically, that's probably closer to Agori, and it actually makes sense for their culture to have a language that resembles Roman characters to some extent.)


Edited by Wrinkledlion X, Mar 22 2014 - 04:25 PM.

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#32 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 22 2014 - 06:58 PM

You may be running on a common misconception that's been going around for a while now that they were "simply automatons". I don't have time now to dig up the posts that clarify this. I know I linked to one from Tolkien's recent S&T theory topic (which you can find on the Key to Nongu award list in the One Stop topic there, if it's not still on the active list).

 

More to the point, you're making some very sweeping assumptions with things like "wouldn't" -- how do you know they wouldn't? Even if they were purely robots, the GBs might have intended them to be chiseling from the start. The GBs themselves chiseled the Agori text we're talking about, if memory serves. And the Kal themselves used an inscription in a wall once (though they're not fully robots counting the Krana, but this really has no thing to do with the ability to work a chisel :P). We can't prove (as far as I know) that they did, but it seems to be the more evidenced theory. The whole artificial-primitive interior environment isn't there by accident. And if they started out with more advanced alternatives, seeing chiseling as bad, it seems unlikely they would change to chiseling later.

 

About a base -- if you take away the outer circle from "A" for example, it becomes much more difficult to figure out which letter it is, especially if you're just trying to label things "A" "B" etc. -- other letters have nothing but a small circle too. This doesn't apply to all the letters but the point is the solution you'd need to fix this would be more subjective. I opted for something more objective so it works more like a proper theory. :) Though it's not perfect.

 

As for the "circles in every letter" thing I've covered that enough in previous posts, I think. Don't miss one of my most recent posts up there about the other symbols in that one Mata Nui Saga image, though. Many of those could be taken as meant to be the Agori language (since they're clearly not Matoran, the only other obvious candidate for Mata Nui's own code to be using).


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#33 Offline Wrinkledlion X

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Posted Mar 22 2014 - 07:55 PM

Oh, that's what you meant by a base. I thought you meant a motif that had to be shared in all characters of an alphabet, not a reference point for the floating dots' positions.

 

Those dots are adapted from Roman lettering though, because the dot subs in for the negative space in the letters A, B, C, D, H, P, R, S, U, V, and W*.  So even though the language's real-world (LEGO-employed) designers erased the lines that define those dots' positions, the dots are based off of a linear, human alphabet. I don't mean to suggest that the Agori alphabet looks just like English, but I do want to point out that, both in real life and in the story, the Matoran language is a constructed language based off of another language. Even though the Agori characters have been reduced to dots floating in circles, it's entirely possible that the position of the dots was once determined by actual lines rather than negative space.

 

Whoo, that's difficult to read. This is very visual stuff, so I'm sorry if it's is too confusing to put into words.

 

I wasn't aware that the automatons-thing was a misconception, but then I haven't been active on BZP in a really long time. Still, the fact that I've always heard Matoran referred to as a "programming language" makes me think that I'm right about the basic nature of the language—that it's constructed with efficiency in mind foremost, but not as a standard vernacular. It wouldn't be practical in real life for us to write in binary every day, even if it is very efficient at what it's used for. Same deal here, I think, though obviously it's fiction and there's no real answer to this question. (I know I'm grilling you on this, but just so it's clear, I think it's really cool that you're trying to design an Agori language. I really like this type of stuff, and I'm always reading about Indo-European roots and whatnot, so I'm just going on like this for the fun of it.)

 

As for the Kal thing, I believe that was a burst of plasma or electricity that carved those. (And if I'm thinking of the same scene as you, didn't they write their name in Roman characters? So that's non-canon... or is it??) 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*There are a couple other letters that use dots, but arguably not as negative space-fillers (J, L, Q).


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#34 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 23 2014 - 01:14 AM

I think, if we want to try to use the symbols on that alien planets menu-selector-thingy image, we should see some letters as having circles or curves, others straight lines. The Matoran circles may have been based on some with circles in the original, just making it universal. :shrugs: But I still think it makes sense that Agori would have more than one system, and the connection to the planet name makes sense to me.

 

I'm half thinking of redoing my Spirit's Wish Gate sketch as vector art instead and make the alphabet easily swappable out for some other version. I dunno.

 

Still, the fact that I've always heard Matoran referred to as a "programming language" makes me think that I'm right about the basic nature of the language

But they were supposed to speak it just like we would right from the start, and they were inspired by Agori anyways, who chisel. I think the GBs wanted the Matoran/etc. to imitate Agori life as closely as possible because they felt it was a system that worked, and any serious deviation from that would probably be too risky as it would be untested. They just didn't imagine they'd achieved true artificial sapience along the way; they didn't believe they were capable of it.

 

I wouldn't be dogmatic about it, but chiseling seems far more natural. It's not at all mutually exclusive with the language they're speaking and carving also being the programming language. If anything it makes more sense as they weren't supposed to be tampering with the code of the giant robot or the like, but if they are kept speaking/writing it, if as contingencies they have to be pulled in for the job they would have the knowledge to do it.

 

For my Wish Gate image it may be irrelevant here, come to think of it, since that was made by GBs too. People who don't like this alphabet could just chalk it up to a prototype version of Matoran. :P

 

 

As for the Kal thing, I believe that was a burst of plasma or electricity that carved those. (And if I'm thinking of the same scene as you, didn't they write their name in Roman characters? So that's non-canon... or is it??)

I wasn't talking about the method they happened to use; the point is they obviously have the "hand-eye" coordination (or "something"-eye) to write. Even a real-world robot made entirely out of LEGO pieces could probably be made to chisel. :P Someone should do that lol.

 

Yes, it's similar to the comic version of the breaking open of the silver dome over the Axalara in 2008; the name of the craft is written in English on the floor. Clearly we're meant to pretend it was written in Matoran.


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#35 Offline MrSciFiGuy

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Posted Apr 11 2014 - 08:10 PM

A little complicated to write in, but I love having these different languages from the Bionicle universe. You never fail to disappoint Bonesii


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