Evolution of the Makuta Species

[Azani]

I was just responding to a topic (posted by Mampt) opn how long a Matoran's lifespan is, and how, if at all, they perceive time differently than we do. With all of that discussion, it occurred to me that it's never explained in story how a being such as a Makuta "evolves".

 

It's made clear that all members of the species "evolved" at one point in time to be composed of gaseous antidermis instead of a physical body, and that the change occurred at the same time, or at least at close to the same time, for all Makuta; Makuta like Miserix and Spiriah were no longer members of the Brotherhood at the time that the change occurred, and so they had to find their own ways to adapt, without the Nynrah Ghosts. There isn't any record of a Makuta who did not evolve.

 

In humans, as well as all other species that we know to currently live or have previously lived on Earth, this is not how evolution is generally understood to work. A species evolves as a whole over a period of many generations, by random mutations in the DNA of individuals of said species and the "weeding out" process of natural selection. No species that we know of evolves all at once, with every single member of the species evolving in the exact same way.

 

My question is whether anyone thinks that Greg was referring to something else when he used the term "evolve", or whether Matoran Universe species evolve differently than Earth species do, or any other ideas that you may have. All theories are welcome.

[LordofBionicles]

Well since there is no biological reproduction in the MU there was no way the Makuta could evolve the same way evolution works here on Earth, so I guess the BIONICLE Story Team took a few liberties.

[ALVIS]

Personally, I like to think that the Makuta modified themselves with their own viruses, thus explaining their crazy 42 Kraata abilities that make no sense in the hands of zoologists. So much exposure to the viruses, however, changed their bodies more than they expected, and thus they eventually deteriorated into gaseous forms.

 

But that's headcanon. The official explanation is entirely murky. I recall that in Voyage of Fear, Whenua sees a Tarakava with "flippers that might someday evolve into feet". Consequently, I have no idea what evolution is supposed to mean in the Matoran Universe. :shrug:

[Toa of Italy]

I think the truth is the opposite: the Makuta were always made of antidermis, just temporarily "assembled" into structures resembling organs, muscles exc.

I deduce this from the fact that we know that Mata Nui created them from a pool of pure antidermis left behind by the Great Beings.

 

It is difficult to establish why, then, he didn't make them as energy beings from the start. To answer this, I would first point out that there is at least one certain reason the Makuta were Antidermis-based: Teridax, a Makuta, was meant to take control eventually of another robot and could do so only in energy form. We therefore have to wonder whether Mata Nui knew the Great Beings were planning this (prior, of course, to the crash on Aqua Magna, in which he lost part of his memory).

If he knew, the answer might be that he thought that being energy-based would make the Makuta much more powerful (allowing them, for instance, to create stronger Rahkshi) and he didn't consider it prudent to give them such power from the beginning, when he still wasn't sure as to their behavior (as it turned out, he failed to predict it even later on, but that is beside the point).

If he didn't know, there might even be a simpler explanation: he didn't think they would function as energy beings (remember that, for instance, the Makuta were unable to move their body while still encased in conventional armor and Mata Nui might not have been capable of designing a better one for them) and their evolution was part of the Great Beings' design, which influenced Mata Nui without him being aware of it.

 

 

But that's headcanon. The official explanation is entirely murky. I recall that in Voyage of Fear, Whenua sees a Tarakava with "flippers that might someday evolve into feet". Consequently, I have no idea what evolution is supposed to mean in the Matoran Universe. :shrug:

 

I might be wrong, but I think that at least where Rahi are concerned, reproduction does exist in the Matoran Universe (after all, the Makuta didn't produce every single Rahi there was, they simply designed them and created the first specimen). So traditional evolution is possible where they are concerned (though I have no idea if Rahi have some DNA-equivalent or not).

[bonesiii]

I think the truth is the opposite: the Makuta were always made of antidermis, just temporarily "assembled" into structures resembling organs, muscles exc.

I deduce this from the fact that we know that Mata Nui created them from a pool of pure antidermis left behind by the Great Beings.

I believe the topic starter is aware of this and was referring to the transformation to gaseous antidermis, not to antidermis. Although I have seen some express a misconception that they became antidermis, so good to clarify it. Just to be clear, not only is what you say a mere deduction, it's confirmed. They were solid antidermis, and became gaseous.

 

Anyways, it's pretty clear it was an intentional time-delay effect programmed into the antidermis. Why it was done I have very little idea. Maybe the solid form was to help these powerful beings have more empathy for the other beings in their world, but the GBs / Mata Nui wanted them eventually to not be limited by a solid form (for reasons like Teridax's planned takeover as you say, ToI). I was also thinking maybe it would help them deal better with Rahi they made which might get out of control, being less susceptible to physical harm. (They'd just have to make sure they didn't face off against something like a rampaging Catapult Scorpion, whose lava power would probably be fatal to them, or something with direct Fire elemental powers.)

 

We therefore have to wonder whether Mata Nui knew the Great Beings were planning this

He would only need to be given instructions to put a time-delay transformation into their DNA-equivalent to turn gaseous; he wouldn't necessarily need to know their reasons for this. Actually it's possible they simply ensured this program was present in all the antidermis (it's also an artificial molecule they made, like the artificial protodermis), "If a solid being is made of this, make sure they turn gaseous after X set time." So he didn't necessarily need to know about any of it.

 

I might be wrong, but I think that at least where Rahi are concerned, reproduction does exist in the Matoran Universe

I'm not sure if this was ever pinned down. It's a question that has come up numerous times over the years in S&T but I still don't have an answer offhand. It seems unlikely to me. Makuta were supposed to stick around so could continue to make new Rahi whenever needed.

[Wazdakka]

In The Mutran Chronicles, Mutran states that he was making Kalmah new Rahi replacements with short lifetimes because Kalmah didn't show the Makuta enough respect, implying that Rahi were replaced by being made by Makuta, not by... y'know.

[JAG18]

Greg has confirmed that the Red Star's Reignition System does affects Rahi, on the grounds that they were important enough to Mata Nui's well-being to necessitate being included in the Red Star's cycle. So, perhaps the Makuta were supposed to make the Rahi, but not be focused on preserving them like a bunch of overgrown park rangers.

Edited March 10, 2014 by JAG18

[Katuko]

It's starting to seem more and more likely that while the Makuta didn't necessarily know about the exact nature of the Red Star itself, they did know something about how life and death works in the MU. Mutran could create Rahi with limited lifespans that presumably did not "respawn", while Teridax had a revival device of sorts near Mangaia (and I believe the knowledge of how to revive Jaller came from him, after the fusion with Takanuva was created. Takua/Takanuva certainly did not seem like someone who would know how to revive anybody).

 

Rahi do not reproduce. There is never any mention of young, and what we see of the Nui-Rama hive from MNOG doesn't have anything that would equal a regular beehive's food and/or breeding spaces (though it's positively huge, so what's beyond the space where the Matoran are held captive we have no way of knowing). No mention of a "queen" in these insect swarms either, though, and all the Rahi were fitted with infected masks. Breeding of anything except the organic fish from the Endless Ocean seems very unlikely.

 

Even the beings on Spherus Magna must rarely breed, given their incredibly long lifespans and scarcity of resources. And if they breed maybe once every 100000 years, then I imagine that noting in the Matoran Universe ever had any reason to breed either, even if they somehow were made with ability to do so. Matoran are confirmed to be created in factories, anyhow, so I imagine the same to hold true for Rahi and Makuta lab creation.

[believe victims]

The problem is, writers of science fiction in general are notorious for abusing the concept of evolution to be something it's not. What Greg shows it as in Bionicle is something like Pokemon, where it means an individual going from one stage to the next. A better word would probably be "mutate" or "change".

 

This isn't even the only time he's done it, considering I'm pretty sure he also uses the word "evolve" to describe when an Av-Matoran changes into a Bohrok.

[ALVIS]

*ding*

 

Makuta is evolving! Makuta is evolving!

 

[Katuko]

Congratulations, your Teridax has evolved into Gaseous Makuta!

 

Teridax wants to learn Nasty Plot, but Teridax already knows four moves! Should a move be forgotten to make space for Nasty Plot?

 

>>> Transform

* Psychic

* Teleport

* Mind Reader

 

*Grumbles*

 

"4 moves? What can I do with 4 moves? I don't know even know where to fit any of my 40 extra powers!"

 

 

Seriously, though, the transition to gaseous form happened very suddenly and was undoubtedly hard-coded into the Antidermis as an intended feature. Other beings in the Matoran universe only really change when they are exposed to such things as Toa stones, shapeshifting powers, Energized Protodermis, or the Pit mutagen; thus there is no "evolution" going on at all apart from the occasional adaptation to a new environment, something Protodermis lends itself well to anyhow.

[SarracenianKaijin]

Why would Nothing need to evolve.

 

Of course it isn't evolution. The true nature of Makuta is far too terrible for GregF to comprehend. That's why the abuse of false words are placed.

[TERIDAX941]

Why would Nothing need to evolve.

 

Of course it isn't evolution. The true nature of Makuta is far too terrible for GregF to comprehend. That's why the abuse of false words are placed.

Forgive me for misunderstanding but where are you getting Nothing from? The Makuta were created from Antidermis, so there was definitely something there, housed inside their armor shells, and then after a few hundred thousand years they all "evolved" into a state where they could live without having to worry about food, air, or any mundane things. They were given more abilities (easier kraata production) as well as the ability to possess any non inhabited robot shell or body. It's not that far fetched really.

[SarracenianKaijin]

 

Why would Nothing need to evolve.

 

Of course it isn't evolution. The true nature of Makuta is far too terrible for GregF to comprehend. That's why the abuse of false words are placed.

Forgive me for misunderstanding but where are you getting Nothing from? The Makuta were created from Antidermis, so there was definitely something there, housed inside their armor shells, and then after a few hundred thousand years they all "evolved" into a state where they could live without having to worry about food, air, or any mundane things. They were given more abilities (easier kraata production) as well as the ability to possess any non inhabited robot shell or body. It's not that far fetched really.

 

Unfortunately, that is not how evolution works. Not even close.

 

And when you are made of something called "Antidermis", as in the diametrical opposition of everything that the world is built of, why would even need anything provided by the "material" in the first place?

 

Stands to reason that Makuta never truly needed to worry about food or air or all that anyway, because they are not part of our understanding of "something". Thus, they are "Nothing". As suggested by the magnum opus.

[TERIDAX941]

 

 

Why would Nothing need to evolve.

 

Of course it isn't evolution. The true nature of Makuta is far too terrible for GregF to comprehend. That's why the abuse of false words are placed.

Forgive me for misunderstanding but where are you getting Nothing from? The Makuta were created from Antidermis, so there was definitely something there, housed inside their armor shells, and then after a few hundred thousand years they all "evolved" into a state where they could live without having to worry about food, air, or any mundane things. They were given more abilities (easier kraata production) as well as the ability to possess any non inhabited robot shell or body. It's not that far fetched really.

 

Unfortunately, that is not how evolution works. Not even close.

 

And when you are made of something called "Antidermis", as in the diametrical opposition of everything that the world is built of, why would even need anything provided by the "material" in the first place?

 

Stands to reason that Makuta never truly needed to worry about food or air or all that anyway, because they are not part of our understanding of "something". Thus, they are "Nothing". As suggested by the magnum opus.

 

Hence why I put " " around the word evolve, because it was evolution in word only. It's more like a devolution, because their essense kinda reverted back into it's original form while keeping their concious intact.

 

As far as the name goes, it was never referred to as Antidermis by the Makuta themselves, it was the Piraka who gave it that name, when they were using it to enslave the Matoran of VN. They saw it as a virus to be used to their own devices, with only Zaktan knowing what it truly was. So story wise, even though it was popularly called "antidermis" it simply was the material created by the Great Beings for Mata Nui to make the Makuta species. And Biosector01 clearly states that it was only after their transformation that they didn't need the mundane things of life, such as sleep, food, air, water etc, so apparently they needed those before hand, just like everyone else. So therefore they were actually Something when they were created. Besides, they were a very sectretive society, I highly doubt that they made the fact of their "transformation" common knowledge to the outside world. So it would make sense that the Piraka (who were long time Dark Hunters) didn't recognise a Makuta's essense immediately, calling it antidermis, since they didn't know what it truly was.

[SarracenianKaijin]

If Antidermis is not what its called, why then is it such an appropriate moniker for Nothing.

[fishers64]

If Antidermis is not what its called, why then is it such an appropriate moniker for Nothing.

It is called antidermis.

 

Though Teridax called it nothing, but that was a lie. "I bore you. For I am nothing."

[Azani]

So it would make sense that the Piraka (who were long time Dark Hunters) didn't recognise a Makuta's essense immediately, calling it antidermis, since they didn't know what it truly was.

They had also spent their entire lives in a world where nearly everything was made from a substance called "protodermis" and they could have considered "antidermis" a foreign, bizarre, antithesis to it; much as we refer to "dark matter" and "matter", antidermis was the opposite of protodermis.

[Mr. Lightning Bolt]

It is out of nothing which you came. And it is into nothing you will go.

 

That said, the "evolution" being referred to here is what I like to call "Hollywood evolution".

[TERIDAX941]

 

If Antidermis is not what its called, why then is it such an appropriate moniker for Nothing.

It is called antidermis.

 

Though Teridax called it nothing, but that was a lie. "I bore you. For I am nothing."

 

Well, yes it's called antidermis, but Biosector01 states that it was the Piraka who gave it that name. How well known that name is among the MU inhabitance well, that's up for grabs lol

 

While Teridax said that he was nothing, I'm pretty sure that was an analogy or something, cuz the makuta are *definitely* something. They were created, they lived and they can die. Simple as that.

[Pomegranate]

"Evolution" just might be the right word to use here, though, if you consider the MU's inhabitants affinity for rebuilding themselves and the Makuta's ability to transform. It's reasonable to assume that, maybe, over thousands and thousands and thouuusands of years they shapeshifted and manually rebuilt themselves so much that it 'cause their basic, um, stuff to change its properties. It might not be entirely natural, obviously, but it may follow a natural curve if you noted it down over time. I like Angel Bob's headcanon of the Makuta deliberately changing themselves into a gaseous state with their own viruses and experiments, 'cause it applies here. Maybe it was intentional, maybe it wasn't? It could've been over a very short period of time or, like I said, it could've happened over many thousands of years as an unintended side effect of having a job that basically requires you to mess with the very substance of life all the time. A cycle of rebuilding themselves over and over and over, be it to become stronger or to repair injuries or to experiment or what have you, could correlate to a cycle of parent organisms and their offspring having offspring and so on, like normal evolution.

[TERIDAX941]

Well it probably wasn't all the way intentional, because Mutran states in his chronicles that Bitil and some of the others were rather shocked when they suddenly changed. Apparently they didn't see it coming, at least not all of them did.

[bonesiii]

deliberately changing themselves into a gaseous state with their own viruses and experiments, 'cause it applies here. Maybe it was intentional, maybe it wasn't?

No, Greg said it was natural to Makuta, and not something they caused. It was a time-delay transformation programmed into their antidermis from the start.

 

And they definitely didn't see it coming. Unlikely they would think to even look for such a thing in their substance, although I wouldn't rule out that if they had thought to look they might have been able to find it, being scientists and all. We have only begun to understand our own genome; it wouldn't be easy to figure such a thing out. (Of course, they seem quite a bit more advanced in that sort of thing given that they probably use some amount of conscious knowledge of it in making Rahi/Makuta viruses.)

[Pomegranate]

Well it probably wasn't all the way intentional, because Mutran states in his chronicles that Bitil and some of the others were rather shocked when they suddenly changed. Apparently they didn't see it coming, at least not all of them did.

Perhaps one of the Makuta did something to all the others? Angel Bob's virus idea would fit there too, but so does the time delay theory discussed above... Hmm, I didn't consider that piece of information, thanks for pointing it out.

 

Edit: Ninja'd by Bones, of course That changes things then, thanks.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Pomegranate

[SarracenianKaijin]

 

 

If Antidermis is not what its called, why then is it such an appropriate moniker for Nothing.

It is called antidermis.

 

Though Teridax called it nothing, but that was a lie. "I bore you. For I am nothing."

 

Well, yes it's called antidermis, but Biosector01 states that it was the Piraka who gave it that name. How well known that name is among the MU inhabitance well, that's up for grabs lol

 

While Teridax said that he was nothing, I'm pretty sure that was an analogy or something, cuz the makuta are *definitely* something. They were created, they lived and they can die. Simple as that.

 

 

Surely you must have some idea of god-images, representations and avatars?

 

Doesn't take too long to figure that one. Besides, you are focusing on the insignificant details that does nothing for the greater narrative.

Edited April 16, 2014 by SarracenianKaijin

[bonesiii]

Surely you must have some idea of god-images, representations and avatars?

Well, it would be speculative to assume such things; keep in mind this forum division is for evidence-based ideas (theories). But main reason I'm posting is, actually, that is in a sense sort of what happens with Makuta -- their essence sort of makes their bodies like avatars. When one avatar (their armor) is destroyed, their essence can move to another. Not an exact analogy, though.

 

(Also, LEGO generally avoids things like "gods" -- although I think Avatar itself sort of went there, and it had licensed LEGO sets... but not an expert on that franchise.)

 

Doesn't take too long to figure that one. Besides, you are focusing on the insignificant details that does nothing for the greater narrative.

This appears to be an emotionalism fallacy -- that story logic and plausibility may be ignored because they aren't directly emotional. Two problems with that. First, it forgets that most people emotionally want stories to be plausible.

 

Second, it's backwards -- if a character aims a gun at another character, is not the fact that the bullet would seriously damage their body and possibly kill them the very reason it is emotionally powerful? The reasoning fails to put yourself in the character's shoes; if you were in their situations, you wouldn't want to think like this. If you're driving a car down a highway, do you decide that the mundane physics matter of the downside of straying too far from the lines at top speed is insignificant, and act on some poetic impulse to "break out from the norm" or whatever, and suddenly turn the wheel sharply, hurtling into the ditch and/or oncoming traffic?

 

Of course not.

[SarracenianKaijin]

Well, it would be speculative to assume such things; keep in mind this forum division is for evidence-based ideas (theories).

Rather impractical and nonsensical idea, given how we are talking about fictional stories that people read into and allowed to grow within the garden of their mind, and not some kind of scientific research that you file and categorize with thoughtless sterility.

 

(Also, LEGO generally avoids things like "gods".)

 

Who cares. We are not LEGO.

 

This appears to be an emotionalism fallacy -- that story logic and plausibility may be ignored because they aren't directly emotional. Two problems with that. First, it forgets that most people emotionally want stories to be plausible.

... And I have no idea how this has anything to do with what I said, so I'm not gonna touch it.

Edited April 16, 2014 by SarracenianKaijin

[bonesiii]

Rather impractical and nonsensical idea, given how we are talking about fictional stories that people read into and allowed to grow within the garden of their mind

We just like to keep things organized; people can put their own things that aren't clearly related to the canon in the Library as fan fiction, on their blog, etc. You're free to reinvent the canon, just be aware (and clear) that that's what you're doing, and for the most part, do it in the forum divisions devoted to it. Storyline & Theories, as the name implies, is about canonically accurate things; that's what people come here to find, and if they want something that goes beyond that, they also know where to go. Although there is a bit of a gray area here.

 

Also, generally fans of LEGO care about the canon LEGO is building. So, that's a lot of people, actually. But that doesn't mean you have to feel like you can't headcanon things differently, etc. Lots of us do, and LEGO is cool with that.

 

But if we're going to have reasonable discussions about the story, it makes sense to focus first on understanding what the canon actually is; if we don't moor the discussions to that solid ground then people could post anything, and that's where spam starts to get out of control.

 

That said, like I mentioned, it would only be speculation if you actually assume it. As a theory it's possible, though it seems unlikely we would find evidence for it. (I thought I mentioned that in the last post but reviewing it seems I forgot. )

Edited April 16, 2014 by bonesiii

[SarracenianKaijin]

... Wait, I had posted a reply here but now its gone.

 

Okay...? Whatever.

 

My point is, there's a difference between "reinvention of canon" and "making readings and theories", the latter which works because it uses canon as the base ground. So, you are worrying over nothing. ^_^

[bonesiii]

Don't worry, I'm not worried. Just a standard caution for S&T.

[SarracenianKaijin]

So yes, there is no actual evolution with the Makuta. Only pretention and the removal of the first layer of deceit.

[The Doctor U]

First of all in my opinion Makuta's evolution is not evolution at all. God(s) don't need to reproduce and they are spirit beings but they did change from their trapped biomechanical bodies to gaseous spirit-forms because they found their meaning of life because they are one divided god, Mata Nui's brother. It is like the Time Lords in Doctor Who, Makuta wanted to break free from earthly bounds thus becoming spirits.

Edited April 17, 2014 by The Doctor U

[TERIDAX941]

First of all in my opinion Makuta's evolution is not evolution at all. God(s) don't need to reproduce and they are spirit beings but they did change from their trapped biomechanical bodies to gaseous spirit-forms because they found their meaning of life because they are one divided god, Mata Nui's brother. It is like the Time Lords in Doctor Who, Makuta wanted to break free from earthly bounds thus becoming spirits.

Makuta aren't gods though, not even close. Sure they're OP, but they were created, and when they were created they were simply Rahi creators. Sure they rose in their role in the universe, became "overseers" of the universe, but that doesn't equivalent them to being gods. And Bonesii just stated that the Makuta didn't choose to change, it just happened naturally because of their genetic makeup.

[SarracenianKaijin]

 

First of all in my opinion Makuta's evolution is not evolution at all. God(s) don't need to reproduce and they are spirit beings but they did change from their trapped biomechanical bodies to gaseous spirit-forms because they found their meaning of life because they are one divided god, Mata Nui's brother. It is like the Time Lords in Doctor Who, Makuta wanted to break free from earthly bounds thus becoming spirits.

Makuta aren't gods though, not even close.

 

 

You have very strange idea about gods.

[TERIDAX941]

You have very strange idea about gods.

Me, or the Doctor U? Care to explain further what your statement is implying? (possibly in a PM so we don't get yelled at for going off topic)

[Arzaki]

Technically, Makuta didn't evolve at all, based on the human definition, but rather metamorphosed. Evolution is change in a species that takes place over several generations, and metamorphose is a change that happens in one lifetime, instead of several generations. I'm pretty sure Makuta don't reproduce. Speaking of reproduction, are there any female Makuta?

[TERIDAX941]

Technically, Makuta didn't evolve at all, based on the human definition, but rather metamorphosed. Evolution is change in a species that takes place over several generations, and metamorphose is a change that happens in one lifetime, instead of several generations. I'm pretty sure Makuta don't reproduce. Speaking of reproduction, are there any female Makuta?

Good point. We were discussing earlier about the term "evolve" and yeah it doesn't quite fit the situation the Makuta went through.

And no Makuta, nor any species in the MU can reproduce, Makuta can only come into being when they're created from that pool of Antidermis that Axonn found. But yes there are female Makuta, Gorast for example.

[Constructelf]

I think it was specified that there were 85 male, 15 female. And yes, "evolve" isn't exactly the right term, more like metamorphise (like somebody said above) or mutate.

[ZippyWharrgarbl]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the main source of the word 'evolution' being used for the change was coined by Chirox, right? Mutran quoted him saying it in his diary, as I recall.

 

If so, then I reckon all that's happened is that Chirox sought to make it sound as wondrous and awesome as they percieved it to be. What they actually went through was a sort of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles mutation. It wasn't realistic, but basically they all mutated in a Hollywood fashion to become antidermis in a shell. As unrealistic as it was, it was actually a better term for what happened than evolution.

 

Chirox used 'evolution' because it would probably sound gross and mundane to say 'mutation'. Mutation gives the image of slimy things that live in sewers. Evolution, however, sounds much more eloquent and lovely, and romanticises the change.

[Phovos]

If they didn't evolve as we understand evolution, what's the point of having male and female Makuta? Maybe they're all genderless and decided to give themselves a gender to tell each other apart, as there's no evolutionary reason to have a gender here.

 

And I'd very much call Makuta gods or at the very least god-like beings (I like the term 'deity'), in the sense of the powers that they process and their powers of creation and destruction.

 

There's also what Zippy just said. Evolution sounds so much nicer than Mutation or Transformation or Metamorphosis.