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Review Topic -- The Destiny of Bionicle

retelling

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#81 Offline WhereFMF

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Posted May 31 2014 - 08:41 PM

I just re-read chapter 10, and I have a small objection. I was under the impression that the Great Beings did not give the Matoran sapience, even by accident, and that Velika was responsible for sapience beginning to flourish within the Matoran Universe. Am I wrong about this, or have you simply chosen to forgo this theory?


Edited by WhereFMF, May 31 2014 - 08:41 PM.

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#82 Offline Yaldabaoth

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Posted Jun 03 2014 - 11:30 AM

I just re-read chapter 10, and I have a small objection. I was under the impression that the Great Beings did not give the Matoran sapience, even by accident, and that Velika was responsible for sapience beginning to flourish within the Matoran Universe. Am I wrong about this, or have you simply chosen to forgo this theory?

 

Well, that idea is only a theory, no matter how interesting. bonesiii is under no obligation to include that theory in his retelling.


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New short story:
 
DESCENDANT, starring Kraata-Kal
 
Older stories:
 
AN EVEN EXCHANGE, starring the Makuta of Stelt
 
THE END OF THE BROTHERHOOD, starring Tobduk and Makuta Chirox

#83 Offline WhereFMF

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Posted Jun 04 2014 - 11:53 AM

I thought it wasn't a theory. My mistake.


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#84 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jun 05 2014 - 04:25 AM

Author's Comments for Chapter 15: New Life

Well, there's been a HUGE revelation by Greg that there was at least an eighth tribe on Spherus Magna -- and it even had its own Element Lord -- the Earth tribe. A later clarification seems to open the door to even more tribes. It's been asked how my retelling will handle this. First, Greg had already said there were other groups somewhere on Spherus Magna -- they could be on the other side of Bara Magna and in Bota Magna (he's now said the Earth tribe was from Bota -- then known as the Great Jungle).

 

But the Element Lord thing was unexpected -- up until now the clear implication (perhaps in-story statement? unsure) has been that there were only six ELs. So a mere mention of other tribes will not be enough to fit with this. I do hope to edit it in somehow (and some of his clarifications have helped it work well for this story, such as that they did not participate in the Core War). But for now I would need to know a lot more detail before I proceed with an editing project (for example, were the other ELs made before or after the six we know of?). And if it ends up being impossible to reconcile with this story I may change my mind and leave it as-is, but that seems unlikely.

Note ["similar to the genetic nucleus"]:

We don't know that the Agori/etc. have “genetics” in the sense of our own system, but presumably they have some equivalent. And as far as I know it has not been confirmed that the Agori know about cells. The Great Beings presumably have to know a lot about them in order to successfully make implants that work smoothly with natural biology, so it's plausible they might have educated the Agori in some of the basics, especially so Agori could practice medicine without being dependent on Great Beings.

 

Note ["Artakha apparently"]:

In fact Artakha had to win a competition to earn the Mask of Creation. The story will say more about that later.

 

Note ["three-dimensional printer"]:

Canon Bionicle actually has a rule that the method of creating new Matoran (or other sapient beings inside the giant robot) will never be revealed, so this is not necessarily exactly accurate. Yet a few things about it have been revealed -- we know it is not through normal biological reproduction as with Agori, and we know it is done by some sort of machine. The reasoning for the rule was to preserve some air of mystery about Bionicle, even though so much else has been revealed.

Assuming that rule sticks around, we may never know what the canon explanation is exactly (so my version may remain canonically plausible forever!). The other main possibility besides a 3D printer would probably be a mini-factory that would mold metal parts, move them into place, and insert growth buds for organic parts, etc. Something like the second idea is done when Matoran rebuild themselves, but it seems implied the method of their original creation is something different.

 

Note:

The image shown for this sea species is actually a depiction of an alternate LEGO System set design for a character who is a member of this species, Ehlek. The main Bionicle set design shows Ehlek in a mutated later form, so the true original form is not quite known, but we do know that the mutation gave him features (namely spikes on his back) that are not included in this set form, so I thought the choice of image would be fitting, at least to give the general idea.

 

Note:

This "Mata Nui Rock" image is actually part of a system of various carved stones that elders of a group of Matoran in the future use to symbolize important legendary figures when they tell riddle-like versions of their history to their people. This is the one they use to symbolize Mata Nui. Canonically it has never been stated that he ever used any particular form to appear before others or speak to them, but we do know that nearly everybody knew of his existence, without understanding his true form or that they actually lived inside him.

It is also canon that the image of the Mask of Shielding (like Tahu's) is another common symbol used for Mata Nui, so he might have appeared in that form instead, or perhaps no form.

 

Note:

Jellyfish image by Tattorack, used with permission. The type of Rahi is canon, to be clear, but it's only known by a description.





Replies to reviews:

Yalda post #1 -- Yes, it was a joke. Long post was long so I didn't bother to answer in the previous. :P I do have almost all of the books. There's one during the Morby saga I had to get from the Library, and (I think it is) the final one that I don't have (and as it turned out, I apparently didn't need it, but I'll check that out on Dropbox just to check, thanks!).

Incidentally... Is that... leeeegal? [/Darth Maul]

Anywho, the issue here was just that I didn't remember that section existed to review it, and BS01's timeline doesn't clearly cite sources (etc. -- see previous response).


fishers -- Just to be crystal clear, pretty much any potential errors, it's a good idea to bring up. Whatever you feel like I guess. Intuition. :P I can't always answer, but it can't hurt to ask. And not asking, if it actually was a (fixable) mistake can hurt (or fail to help lol), so...

The Order concealing what really happened isn't quite what I have in mind. You'll see a clue to it before Part Two is over (but it won't be spelled out, since I did want to leave it open to interpretation somewhat).

About the stasis, see here (why they're listed under "Unemployed" here I have no idea):

http://biosector01.c...rian#Unemployed


NT -- Greg confirmed it's infinite. Most of the technicalities you raise probably apply, so it's probably really "practically" infinite, but it's acceptable in English to say "infinite" as shorthand for "way beyond anything you'll ever reach the end of" or even "not having arbitrary early limits to cut off its potential". I didn't want to bog that section down with all the technical details you'd need to understand the limits, and adding a limiter without clearly explaining it might give the reader the wrong idea. Although one of those doesn't apply -- the number of available protodermis molecules. When two Kanoka are mixed, half the mass of each is converted into energy, so the resulting Kanoka (or protodermis batch, pre-Kanoka) still has the mass of one, not two. This energy goes back out into the system, and more mass is made fairly often by Toa, so the total mass of the system is recycled.

Actually, even the limits you raised depend in part on my interpretation of the molecule's workings, which is only a theory. For all we know, it shunts extra information space into another dimension or something. :P I doubt it, but yeah. Assuming it doesn't, though, the actual mixing process could still remain functionally infinite (until the system breaks down or you run out of available energy). The number of powers that could result should eventually start repeating in my theory, so "different" becomes technically inaccurate. But since we don't really know how it works, I thought it was better just to say it the way Greg did and let the reader interpret it how they wish, whether as a figure of speech or what.

Although, maybe "seemingly" would be an okay modifier? It would be noncommital either way. :shrugs:


RT -- No, they were just delivering the EP to storage and locking it in, to prevent others from accidentally destroying themselves in it (presumably it was found in a pool somewhere on Metru Nui), or enemies from using it to their advantage. This would be under orders from some authority figure, probably Turaga, assuming there were Turaga already on the island at the time, or possibly Toa, Mata Nui, etc.


TL -- That's an interesting question. I have been working on the assumption that a lot of knowledge from collective experience of the Great Beings was downloaded into his mind, but his personality could have been somewhat immature at the time. It would help explain why he later stops paying attention to his insides.


Ahktu -- They are indeed. :evilgrin:

Well, he is using replacements for now (he got several orbs, remember), but they will run out soon if he doesn't find a way to recharge the batteries.


Where (and Yalda's second post) -- Koronga doesn't actually know what really happened; all he knows is the Great Beings did not expect full sapience, but it's there. So, if Greg does decide to canonize it, it can work in this story. But Greg has said other things that seem to argue against it, like confirming Velika didn't want to sabotage the SM reforming mission, and you'd think messing with the designs of the maintenance workers could seriously risk that.


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#85 Offline RahkshiToa88

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Posted Jun 05 2014 - 06:49 AM

This was an amazing chapter! Using my small experience with Latin and Greek root words, a few years ago I figured out that protodermis meant "first skin" or something of the like. Your explanation of its name and analysis of the molecule itself is incredible... and by incredible, I mean completely credible!


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#86 Offline NuvaTube

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Posted Jun 05 2014 - 11:54 AM

I think this sentence could do with a clean up: "Others existed in Metru Nui and elsewhere that were designed to make Matoran. Artakha apparently had made one that could make Toa, although I wasn't sure, because he could have just made Toa directly thanks to the Mask of Creation the guide said it had been entrusted to him."

 

Liking it so far, very interesting to see your theories in action! :3

 

Also: "Others became organic protodermis for the mucles and other organs" You mean muscles right?

 

I don't know why I find it funny that they're 3D Printed but lol XD

I guess I picture it as a moulding machine in a Lego factory XD

 

Punctuation needed here: He could not keep watching forever, and neither could I they had to know how to survive on their own." so how about: "-neither could I: they had to know how to survive on their own."


Edited by NuvaTube, Jun 05 2014 - 12:01 PM.

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#87 Offline WhereFMF

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Posted Jun 05 2014 - 11:57 AM

My first thought is that you made no mention of the Vortixx. Admittedly, nearly everything we know about them is trivia from BIONICLE: World with a few characterized individual, but the Skakdi are about the same.

 

It's interesting that you should introduce Ehlek's species, when we know even less about them. Are the other Barraki unique beings, as far as we know?


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#88 Offline Ahktu

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Posted Jun 05 2014 - 12:25 PM

I likey new chapter. And Ehlek's species has Pistol Shrimp powers? Coool.


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#89 Offline Yaldabaoth

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Posted Jun 05 2014 - 02:23 PM

It's interesting that you should introduce Ehlek's species, when we know even less about them. Are the other Barraki unique beings, as far as we know?

 

The official word is that each of the Barraki is of a different species, thus sort of explaining why their sets looked so different. (When you keep in mind that the Barraki sets depicted their mutated forms, it kinda breaks down, but that was the idea.)


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New short story:
 
DESCENDANT, starring Kraata-Kal
 
Older stories:
 
AN EVEN EXCHANGE, starring the Makuta of Stelt
 
THE END OF THE BROTHERHOOD, starring Tobduk and Makuta Chirox

#90 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jun 11 2014 - 01:11 PM

Author's Comments for Chapter 16: Dark Thoughts

Once again this is one of two chapters that are closely tied (in this one the Makuta are made; the next will feature the first Rahkshi), essentially one medium-sized chapter split into two. I know the end isn't very suspenseful, but that's the reason why.

I'm also not quite happy with the antidermis physics explanations -- I'm not sure it's clear enough, but I've been too delayed by other things to work on that part much. The original version also attempted to explain the granting of tons of powers to Makuta (in addition to the reason Mata Nui states) as the power mixing check system from protodermis being broken due to the different structure of antidermis, so instead of allowing mixtures the GBs just filled that section of the molecule with pre-defined powers. In hindsight, the wording of this part was very clumsy, and I'm not even sure I want to establish that -- what if Greg later says powers in antidermis can be mixed? But I might try to work something like this into an edit, not sure.

Note:

The binary code idea here is only a theory. But the idea of inner light and shadow and powers manifesting if one or the other of the balance is drained mentioned just below is canon (so the binary code theory is based on that).

 

Note:

The image shown for the vat of antidermis is actually a non-canon interpretation of a canon vat of antidermis that will exist somewhere else in the distant future. It is not known exactly how the Makuta were made, only that their substance came from this lake of antidermis.

The lake itself actually exists in a living hivemind-like state already, and remains like that throughout the rest of the history of Bionicle, though it's possible that taking some of its mass out and making individuals out of it might have altered its hidemind identity, perhaps making it simpler.

 

Note:

The power of Miserix's mask is known, but the normal shape is not. It is a Mask of Mutation, which enables him to alter living targets according to his whim. The only image of Miserix that is known is of his favorite, but non-default, form of a titanic dragon creature. This image by me takes some of the basic form of the dragon's face, interpreted as the mask; it's not clear where the mask ends and the dragon begins. I've also altered the design slightly.

 

Note ["cannot harm your protosteel armor"]:

Protosteel is the hardest substance known to exist in confirmed canon, at least of the protodermic substances. It is not known how it would fare against hypothetical proto-diamond, or actual diamond, but it is known that it is only "one of the hardest" substances that exist in the Matoran Universe, so might not actually be the sole hardest. The Makuta are confirmed to use it as armor. Its tough state might be part of why their shapeshifting power is so slow.

Note also that the stunning power I gave to these staffs is not known to be canonically carried by Makuta normally. I intend it to be essentially a training weapon Mata Nui gave them, and later on they would choose their own actual weapons to carry. It is confirmed, though, that a wide variety of stun powers do exist.

Note:

The cropped image of Makuta Teridax's face is of a form he took far into the future. It's generally presumed that his default form had this same face. In all movie interpretations the mask has this or a very similar form. The set form of the mask has two alternate alignments (the forehead of one alignment can become the mouth area of another by flipping it upside-down), symbolizing that the mask can change shape with a pretty wide spectrum of variety that is all still identifiable as the Mask of Shadows.

The full image that this was cropped from shows no wings, but it's known that the default form of all Makuta includes wings as described. There is a canon image of Makuta with wings later, but this is after he has suffered a defeat that apparently lost him his wings, and were absorbed pretty much as-is from a flying Rahi, so likely they are not much like what his original wings would have looked like. So I cropped this image to give the impression that there might be wings present outside the frame of the image. [I believe that later on I do use those wings in another image of him for lack of another option, but ah well.]

 




Replies to reviews:

RT -- Yep, that's one valid translation. :)


NT -- Yeah, most people seem to assume it's something like a molding and so forth process -- I've actually been surprised with all the interest lately in 3D printers that nobody has apparently thought of this. And there were topics where the question was brought up several times since I wrote this -- I kept thinking, "Please don't think of it and post it first." :P Amazingly nobody did, that I saw.

Anywho, at least for my story there are plot reasons a 3D printer works better as you'll see later. And I do think it's a good fit to what we know, since a molding process wouldn't be any huge innovation so keeping it secret from the fans, when the rebuilding process we did learn about is essentially the same thing, would be odd. Of course, there's always the Star Trek style replicator option too lol.

BTW, I should amend what I said about bringing up any and all apparent errors -- in the first and last ones you brought up, that's just the disappearing dashes again. If you're spotting things like that on the day I post a chapter, or day after, no need to bring them up as I'll almost certainly catch them when I re-read after posting. (Though if you're reading like a week later and you still see such things, do bring it up.) Of course, it might not be so easy to spot a disappeared dash, so whatevs.


Where -- I mentioned the Skakdi specifically because the sea species is made near their island, and later on I'll be involving Ehlek's rule over Zakaz, so I wanted the reader to begin to associate the two early on. My reasoning for featuring the sea species first (for the 3D printer reveal) is that they would fill probably the most important void in the "biosphere" (okay it's not a sphere but you know what I mean) of the Matoran Universe; most other sapient species live on land, but with some that breathe water that changes the whole dynamic, and it's a side to the Bionicle story that can be easily missed in the canon.


Ahktu -- *googles Pistol Shrimp* Well if you mean creating bubbles of air from clicking so powerfully, no, but a disturbingly loud noise, yes. :) (In my interpretation, anyways. :P) And I presume their hands don't actually look like crab claws, by the way -- actually probably any biomechanical being (with metal fingers) could do that. I used it here because sound can carry with more "oomph" in water.


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#91 Offline Iron_Man5

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Posted Jun 11 2014 - 03:06 PM

I had a thought... during your telling of the creation of Teridax, it seemed that the Kraahkan was made from the Antidermis as well, but it was confirmed that Arhahka made that mask himself (along with the Avohkii) so shouldn't it be given to him to wear, rather than created along with him? Just a thought. :)


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#92 Offline Akavakaku

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Posted Jun 11 2014 - 11:26 PM

"Kraata" means "slug?" I thought it would probably be from Kra-, meaning shadow.


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#93 Offline Yaldabaoth

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Posted Jun 12 2014 - 09:35 AM

"Kraata" means "slug?" I thought it would probably be from Kra-, meaning shadow.

 

Well, it doesn't, really, but that's what bones has chosen for his retelling. In actuality, it's anyone's guess, though I think the kra- root is probably accurate.


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New short story:
 
DESCENDANT, starring Kraata-Kal
 
Older stories:
 
AN EVEN EXCHANGE, starring the Makuta of Stelt
 
THE END OF THE BROTHERHOOD, starring Tobduk and Makuta Chirox

#94 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jun 12 2014 - 10:40 AM

 

"Kraata" means "slug?" I thought it would probably be from Kra-, meaning shadow.

 

Well, it doesn't, really, but that's what bones has chosen for his retelling. In actuality, it's anyone's guess, though I think the kra- root is probably accurate.

 

Shadow slug? 


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#95 Offline NuvaTube

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Posted Jun 12 2014 - 01:18 PM

:o MAKUTA!! >:3

 

"My gut twisted into knots." Is this really an appropriate figure of speech? I mean, do we know if they even have guts?

 

Oh, and I REALLY think a deeper character reflection on good an evil is necessary. Good and evil can often get subjective. For a character that refers to the two so often I'm suprised there hasn't been a more in depth discussion on the matter. Maybe have him consider why he regards certain things to be good and bad and regard the wider society of Spherus Magna/MU in relation to this. How have his past experiences affected his perceptions of good and evil? Even if he just innately had a sense of set morality, make a point of exploring that?

 

Also that "anyways" habit is bugging me a bit. Do you think you'll change that eventually? :3

 

"Ga-Metru would be the best choice of residence, but all Ga-Matoran were female" maybe add: so I would stand out too much or something like that? Just to be clear. And I know it's a kinda weird topic for Lego and I'm not decided myself on whether it's a good idea, but maybe also clarify that Koronga has no physical gender. I would have thought it would have been something he would have thought about especially whilst on SM?


Edited by NuvaTube, Jun 12 2014 - 01:39 PM.

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#96 Offline TLhikan

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Posted Jun 16 2014 - 11:25 AM

The creation of the Makuta and the physics of antidermis were both pretty interesting; it's also interesting to see Mata Nui's mixture of maturity and naivete, not seeing that the Makuta and the antidermis are going to be a problem. 

 

-TLhikan


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#97 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jun 19 2014 - 05:20 AM

Author's Comments for Chapter 17: Servants of the Brotherhood

 

This chapter marks another of the major transitions. In this case, any semblance that he's going to be able to keep safely spying on events from the background is shattered (of course, the Toa Nuva kind of already did that, but they were good guys and for a while it looked like it was an isolated incident). Selfishly I'm very glad to get to that point, as it's hard to sustain a character-driven story when most major events are done entirely by others. But I wouldn't want to be him, lol. It's also the first time Koronga is put in a position of direct conflict with the main villain of the story, although this one just sets up the beginnings of it. And there's some major foreshadowing of how the non-canon events will go later on, although probably too subtle to pick up on yet.

Note:

I'm not sure if it's confirmed that in their original biomechanical form, the Makuta would eat like Matoran do. Later they turn into a different form that does not need to eat.

 

Note:

The images of Kraata (set form) shown are for Stage One and Stage Six, as well as the movie form of a stage six. The full list of stages as well as the nuances of their power levels can be found here:

http://biosector01.c...aata_Variations

Note:

Sorry for the lack of an image of a Rahkshi's flight mode. One will be included in a later chapter, but didn't really fit this scene since it's the wrong color. Also, please ignore the giant golden mask in the background of the yellow Rahkshi image; there wouldn't be such a thing on Destral, at least at this time. That is a promo image.





Replies to reviews:

IM -- Actually, it doesn't say the mask was made of antidermis (it's protodermis, like the armor), but you're right about his canonically getting the mask from Artakha. I didn't know that when I wrote this. I do recall somebody mentioning it somewhere much later, now that you mention it, but didn't make the connection to an edit needed. :P I'll figure something out for an edit, thanks. (Not sure how to explain why he is the one who gets the mask, not Miserix... maybe Artakha made all the Makuta's masks and they were handed out at the start? Hm...)


Next three posts about Kraata -- Anytime (as far as I recall) that Koronga says a word in Matoran comes from something in Agori, the reader should understand that to be non-canon. All we know for sure is that Matoran is based on Agori like a programming language. You could interpret it two ways-- the "ata" part could mean slug by itself, so "shadow slug", or, what I had in mind but wouldn't be picky about, that the Agori who named slugs that in their obscure dialect did so in part because slugs prefer to stay in the shade.


NT -- No, that figure of speech doesn't really fit; good catch. I can't really comment on his psychology in general. I can say that my aim was to get deeper gradually as the story progresses, and that it's intentional the reader hasn't seen him think about what you brought up. Yeah, I can do a find search eventually for "anyways." And I'm pretty sure it was already stated somewhere that they don't have physical gender or words to that effect.
 

 

TL -- Glad especially you found the antidermis physics interesting. I worried there more than anywhere that it might just get the old "physics stuff is bad" complaints. :P And yeah, having Mata Nui making beings like this without seeming something like, well, Cave Johnson (been playing Portal 2 lately :P) was a challenge. Naivete seemed like the only way to do it that flowed naturally. (Even then it's a little hard to believe, but hey, that's normal for Bionicle, heh.)


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#98 Offline WhereFMF

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Posted Jun 19 2014 - 11:08 AM

From a couple of chapters ago..."Ending the count at a hundred"? Whoa, whoa, whoa.

 

In canon, there are 13 Makuta named, 7 unnamed but specific (Stelt, Killed-By-Zaria, and the five who sided with Miserix), and two variable but plural quantities (an unknown number who died on missions, and an unknown number killed by Teridax). The fewest Makuta that the Brotherhood could comprise is 24. I find it doubtful that so many Makuta would die on missions, and I also doubt that many would remain alive at the time of Teridax's Reign for him to kill.

 

Mata Nui is surprisingly communicative at this stage.

 

If I may offer another general critique (which I forgot to include in this chapter): I think you should avoid speculation and explanations of things that weren't covered in canon (like the intricate workings of Protodermis). They're not that interesting to people new to Bionicle, and even if they are to this forum's users, they distract from the main storyline.


Edited by WhereFMF, Jun 19 2014 - 11:09 AM.

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#99 Offline NuvaTube

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Posted Jun 19 2014 - 01:13 PM

"Soon I found another fish, and I shapeshifted into a larger sharklike form to capture it"  -- Maybe change that to Shark-like? I wouldn't say "shark-like" has been used enough to really make it its own word.

 

"It was the only known material that the natural protodermis would not eventually eat its way through like acid" -- You mean Energized Protodermis right? Not natural protodermis, because that doesn't have acidic qualities (for the most part).

 

It's a shame there isn't an image of a Rahkshi of Heat Vision without the Golden Hau in the background. No other official images have as good a pose, but it's a shame. If someone happened to maybe make some adequate art would you use that instead?? ;3

 

""And so with majority agreement, I deem us the Brotherhood of Makuta," Miserix said." *fangirl scream*


If I may offer another general critique (which I forgot to include in this chapter): I think you should avoid speculation and explanations of things that weren't covered in canon (like the intricate workings of Protodermis). They're not that interesting to people new to Bionicle, and even if they are to this forum's users, they distract from the main storyline.

 

I have to disagree. I think it's really interesting, and it would be useful for a new reader, and definitely deserves to have a place in the story, even if it's non-canon. however I have to partially concede the point, in that sometimes it feels like an awkwardly placed infodump. Maybe spread the information out over longer time periods, and smoothen the writing style more for such relatively heavy sections


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#100 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jun 19 2014 - 02:18 PM

From a couple of chapters ago..."Ending the count at a hundred"? Whoa, whoa, whoa.

 

In canon, there are 13 Makuta named, 7 unnamed but specific (Stelt, Killed-By-Zaria, and the five who sided with Miserix), and two variable but plural quantities (an unknown number who died on missions, and an unknown number killed by Teridax). The fewest Makuta that the Brotherhood could comprise is 24. I find it doubtful that so many Makuta would die on missions, and I also doubt that many would remain alive at the time of Teridax's Reign for him to kill.

 

Actually, the 100 Makuta comes from an official story source: 
 

4.In Bionicle World it says that there were once around 100 Makuta in existance, and that the Makuta of Metru Nui weeded out any he felt he couldn't trust. So my question is this: How many Makuta, give or take, would you say are alive today?
 
4) Mmmmm ... I know of at least 8 besides the one we know

 

2)-About Makuta- You said in Bionicle World that there is about 100 Makuta. Is this true? did it change?

- Were there any Makuta against the overthrowing Mata Nui? If so were they killed off or convinced to join for their conquest?

- How much of the their plan is...on plan? How much of their plan is completed as of now? would anything change after the Staff of Artakha was used?
 
2) That was the OOMN's estimate, it isn't necessarily accurate. Yes, there were Makuta who did not think the plan would work, and they were executed. And their plan is going just fine.

 
I never read Bionicle World, but if it's there, it's there...
 
That doesn't end this confusing answer, though...
 

10.)How many makuta was before teridax? and how many during his reign?
10) All Makuta were created the same time, so there were none before him ... and now there is only one other, Miserix, left alive
10.)So but how many makuta were, when miserix ruled the brotherhood, and how many after teridax" kill them" rule? 
10) I believe the number we gave for the BOM at one point was 18, something like that, and after Teridax took over, it was him and Miserix left

That doesn't slash the other more official answer, although it might explain the confusion you had.

 

@ Physics: I don't know. :shrugs: It might be the only interesting part of this story, given that I know 78% of what's going to happen.

 

I'm not very engaged in the mystery of this story yet, as the canon events feel very disconnected from the "character mystery" at hand - for the most part, I haven't been noticing it at play except in bits and pieces, and I'm not sure why I should care about it yet. This seems to be because I'm still getting the impression of Koronga as a bland character for some reason, even though there have been bright spots, objectively...but then again, most of those bright spots have to do with physics. K missed his calling; he's a physicist. A traveling adventurer physicist, but still a physicist. Darn, that actually sounds like a good character for a story - it's just that he's written wrong somehow. He always seems to be alone for the most part - nobody is reacting to his eccentric nature very much, so it's hard to see until I start thinking too hard about physics. :P Most of his character interactions don't seem to point back to this part of him either, which makes it hard to see him as anything more than an author-avatar-surrogate-narrator. :P

 

EDIT: Sorry, had to sneak it in: Koronga also strikes me as a little bit of a cynic. "All these bad things are going to happen!" seems to be his thing from Chapter 1 onwards. He handles it a lot better than a bunch of other characters I've seen in other works (he's still trying to stop the bad apples) but unfortunately we sort of know he's doomed. :(

 

Chapter 15 - 17: Nothing much to say to these chapters, other than what other more sharper-eyed beings have pointed out. 16 added darkness and grimmedness to the bland edges of what I saw in 15; the 3-D printers inspire a :shrugs:. 17 I liked better, since it lampshaded Koronga's mistakes (he is now realizing that he can make them) and directly pitted Teridax against Koronga (three guesses on who the main antagonist of this story is...). I suppose in another sense I didn't like it, since wouldn't Miserix peg some lower-level Makuta on the Matoran chase? I guess I might have enjoyed it more if the failure to stop/capture Koronga was pegged on some other Makuta, and then Teridax take over the assignment, rather than Teridax take it up originally.

 

Still, I think that might edge toward redeeming some of this story's irritations. There wasn't much of an antagonist for these first 15 or so chapters, and I'm feeling it a lot. Again, feels like a bland retelling of events - the mystery didn't quite have stakes other than Koronga proclaiming that there were stakes...and then we know how it all ends...or at least, we think we know how it all ends...


Edited by fishers64, Jun 22 2014 - 12:38 AM.

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#101 Offline Ahktu

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Posted Jun 20 2014 - 10:00 AM

I really like the new chapter. I feel like the story is really picking up. One thing, just a suggestion. K keeps talking about Mata Nui being naive. And he seems to say here that MN is arrogant. I feel like if you are planning to include more of MN here, maybe you should show an example of MN's arrogance?

 

My only complaint is that the chapters take to long to come out. :P:P:P


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#102 Offline TLhikan

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Posted Jun 23 2014 - 12:31 PM

I agree that Koronga sounds like a bit of a Eeyore from time to time, but in fairness to him, he's already seen his home torn up by war and then torn up literally, and is going to see a lot more horrible things between now and when Mata Nui re-forms Spherus Magna. 

 

Mata Nui, on the other hand, is dealing with creatures that to him may as well be stomach bacteria or white blood cells; it's not hard to understand why he seems to be unaware of the natures of both the Great Beings and the Makuta.

 

Still, it's a interesting dynamic between Koronga's constant dread and Mata Nui's blissfully ignorant naivete.  


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#103 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jun 25 2014 - 06:36 PM

Author's Comments for Chapter 18: From Bad to Worse

News about Velika relevant to previous discussion:

Do you have any preferred reason for Velika giving them sentience [sic] as of yet?


Not a preferred theory, no, but I do think we can take as a given that Velika was responsible.


So that's official confirmation -- Velika DID give the Matoran Universe beings sapience! Like I said before, Koronga has no way to know this in any part that's written yet, but I may try to work it in before the end. (Though more about his motives would be nice. I think I could avoid that if necessary though...)

On this chapter itself -- it's one of my favorites of the early ones... but I don't really like the title. Consider it a standin until I hopefully think of a better one. :P (If yall've got a suggestion, go ahead. Problem is most of the possibilities that are more specific would be spoilery. I dunno.)

Also, the dog Rahi (mentioned in the first comment below) is an Energy Hound, but I didn't have time to get an image. Problem was I waited to save them for later more involved featurings, and I was supposed to use whatever was left here, but I ran out of time to check now which ones I did and did not use. I'll try to add one later.

Note:

Although Koronga has no way to know this and assumes the Makuta made this type of Rahi, neither the Makuta nor the Great Beings created it. They were created by servants of Artakha (or possibly by Artakha himself with the Mask of Creation), and were some of the earliest Rahi to be made. We do not know that the Makuta would be given any at this time, but the implication here is that Mata Nui non-canonically assigned one to them to chase Koronga. The name and method of tracking will be introduced later.

Note:

Both (non-canon) Zyglak images here made by CrunchbiteNuva, used with permission.

Note:

Details of the methods of death of these Toa are unknown. It does matter for a reason I won't mention here but will come up in later story. A comment will clarify what we do and don't know at that time.





Replies to reviews:

(Once again this is going to get longer than I'd like. I'm hoping this'll be the last time this happens, heh. But things seemed to need saying...)

Where -- As fishers showed, that number isn't my idea. BS01 also says it, and it's been hashed out before in S&T. It really isn't an issue, since 100 is a tiny, tiny number for an entire population (although it really balances out nicely since they're so overpowered). And we know of other whittling down events besides those two things, but we're getting ahead of ourselves now...

It's debatable exactly how much Mata Nui would want to talk, but we have a lot of evidence that in the very earliest days he did go through a period where he was interested in internal events. For example, we know he named Miserix leader of the Brotherhood. And there was a legend that he "walked" Metru Nui, and declared the Great Temple his favorite spot.

As for your other comment, it's noted that you feel that way, but if I may likewise offer a critique of the critiquing style ( :P), remember that when it comes to "you should" types of opinions, you can't just rely on your own personal preferences to tell that, as there's so many other factors, including both the preferences of everybody else, and objective story quality principles. For example, since Koronga cared about it, he definitely had to try to understand protodermis, and since he wants his memoir to be informative, he isn't likely to just skip over that. Also, how do you know it won't be important later? We still have a lot of ground to cover.

(And how could you know what people new to Bionicle would or wouldn't want? Why would they all have the exact same tastes anyways? Surely there's variety in both current fans and non-fans.)

BTW, I'm sure you didn't mean "speculation" literally, but just FTR, the normal S&T meaning of that doesn't really apply here. Things like how protodermis works are theories with canon evidence, for example, and something with no evidence is still valid as it's a fan fiction. (In fact when somebody posts speculation in S&T we usually advise them instead to make it a fanfic.) Keep in mind that seemingly almost all retellings by other people of other stories (like the stereotypical "new movie version of old movie) tend to actually change what was previously canon. Since I'm actually trying hard not to do that (mostly lol), I need to be afforded something else to make it new. That means non-canon things.

Besides, if canon-only is what you want, you already have that.



NT -- Makes sense about the dash. Or even cut the "like" entirely. He turned into a shark, after all. I notice there's another "like" (with dash already) in this chapter, but it does make sense in that one, since there were a number of creatures described like that among the First Rahi but apparently not actually called eels (according to BS01). Anywho...

Natural protodermis is energized protodermis -- this was made clear earlier in the story. All other protodermis is artificial. Calling it "natural" is a way not to use the same label over and over. Not sure what you had in mind -- what else could that mean?

I don't know about instead -- I really like that image despite the Hau. :P Maybe an edit to remove the Hau, though (which I could probably do myself if I find the time). And there is at least one person's art I plan to use for them, but for the Bara Magna war at the end. :shrugs: If you are thinking of making one, though, I'd prefer it be of a Heat Vision Rahkshi in Flight mode. :P

And keep in mind the difference between an "info dump" as it's normally defined -- a character and/or narrator saying something they would not realistically say just so the reader can know it -- and information that comes up when it naturally should. I always use the latter; it's a strict rule. The wording of most everything can usually be improved, but what counts as an improvement can be subjective, remember. For the most part the wording I've chosen is how I really do feel Koronga would actually say it in his memoir, so I wouldn't call them info dumps.

This is coming from somebody who is irked by even the slightest use of info dumping, keep in mind, which is a lot more common than people seem to realize. For example, on Stargate Atlantis, I have noticed many times that they'll come into a scene, and some character will say something like "what are we doing again?" and then somebody will tell the whole backstory, which is very unrealistic. Of course, that one still tends to work 'cuz they always manage to do it in an entertaining way lol. But the unrealism still irks me, so trust me, I don't do that. :)



fishers -- I can agree with some of what you said, actually, but as downsides that were necessary to get upsides you didn't mention, which outweigh the downsides IMO. :)

I'm also getting a sense that you may have set up some unrealistic preconceived notions about what to expect, though I'm not sure. For example, if you were looking for about the level of mystery I typically use in the Paracosmos, that's not the idea; remember what I said earlier about it being intended as introductory to Bionicle fan fiction in general. Maybe this was clear to you already, I'm not sure, but in case it helps. :)

And what you call bland, could also be called various good things. It's all a matter of perspective, and keep in mind somebody with a different personality can be more bored (or irked at unrealism :P) by alternatives too. But that particular complaint was expected, at least for this section. Just try to keep an open mind and remember you're not really supposed to consciously understand all of what's happening yet anyways. =)

About Miserix, there really are no levels among them yet except that Mata Nui appointed him leader, so the easy answer would be, Teridax is the low-level Makuta he picked. :P But there's other factors like his having demonstrated brilliance, thus seeming like a good pick for the most difficult command Mata Nui has yet given them. Also, Miserix has no way to know it's really a Matoran.

Finally, your last statement is on the right track. :ziplip:


Ahktu -- Yeah, I noticed on re-re-proofreading that Mata Nui's naivete is emphasized at least twice. I didn't really have time to worry about it, but might edit. On the other hand, the second was written as intentionally adding to the impression in the first, so it might work. :shrugs:

I don't know that arrogance is intended, I'm not sure where you're getting that, offhand. Maybe the idea Koronga had that he might think he's the only sapient being? I don't think Koronga meant that as arrogance but an innocent oversight (it would actually be fairly reasonable for a super-giant being to assume he's much smarter than the beings inside him), though he was aware it MIGHT be -- or become -- arrogance. Either way, it's only Koronga's speculation.


TL -- We can't all, and some of us don't.

*ahem* Couldn't resist. :P Actual reply: Well said; not much to add there. :) I'd just add that something specific from his visions is also having a strong hold over him -- the fact that something was so traumatic to see, his mind forced him to forget it (along with a lot else). And he has no idea what it was. That is a big part of why he's being both pessimistic and "bland" -- he's terrified to take action that might cause that to happen, so he's trying to "lurk before he leaps" as it were, so that when he does take action it will be effective (he hopes). And of course there's more to it I can't discuss.

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#104 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jun 25 2014 - 10:16 PM

fishers -- I can agree with some of what you said, actually, but as downsides that were necessary to get upsides you didn't mention, which outweigh the downsides IMO. :)

*brain makes list of upsides to the protrayal* *nods in agreement* Okay, yeah...hmm...weird...
 

I'm also getting a sense that you may have set up some unrealistic preconceived notions about what to expect, though I'm not sure. For example, if you were looking for about the level of mystery I typically use in the Paracosmos, that's not the idea; remember what I said earlier about it being intended as introductory to Bionicle fan fiction in general. Maybe this was clear to you already, I'm not sure, but in case it helps. :)

No, I don't think it's that. At least, it wasn't intentional - I expected...I didn't really have any expectations. It was something...it is something entirely new, and so my mind draws blank on the expectation register. It's possible, I guess, but I wouldn't call it likely - can't rule it out. I thought it might be a little more interesting than it is, though, I mean when I first thought of it. But then I thought it might be boring and stuff because it was a retelling and retellings tend to be boring, and so on. If anything, I had the opposite expectation going in that it was going to be bad, but then it segued back to about neutral because there was going to be a mystery. I had a couple of thoughts, but I don't think they hardened into "this is how it's going to be" because I didn't know...and I knew I didn't know...ow, my brain hurts...

 

I really try not to judge things beforehand, try to understand before making criticism. Granted, I don't always do the best job of it, and in this case, it appears definitely not, at least in the understanding department.

It also appears that something about this character is bugging me, however, and I haven't put my finger on it yet. If I'm writing a bunch of complaints that don't make sense, it may be that the true complaint is something my mind doesn't want to know about enough to complain. Or it just plain flat doesn't know about enough to complain, but the intuition is yelling "Something is wrong here! I don't know what it is, but something isn't quite right!". So it tries to pin it down on something, but it usually fails. 
 
Also I notice that you are giving a somewhat stock response to this, that my personal tastes are blinding me here, which I find to be odd. I have read other works with less mystery than the Bionicle Paracosmos and enjoyed them. Much less. Otherwise I would have had loads and loads of trouble reading anything at all. :P Read my words - I'm not complaining about the level of mystery in this story, I am complaining about characterization, or the apparent lack thereof of the main character. That could be a taste thing. :shrugs:
 
Also, there is no good way to respond to that accusation, since I think of my mind as a somewhat unreliable instrument that can use negativity to conceal stuff from me. The proper answer is: I don't know. Too many variables in the equation. And you're giving me a headache.  :P
 

Just try to keep an open mind and remember you're not really supposed to consciously understand all of what's happening yet anyways. =)

No condemnations will be issued until the story is finished. :P
 

Finally, your last statement is on the right track. :ziplip:

You would say that. :P There are two "tracks" that my mind hands me: finishing the sentence: "...and we really don't know how it all ends." or taking "at least we think we know how it all ends", as fact, which would imply that we are not as well knowledgeable of the ending as we thought. They both lead to the same destination; in any event your manipulative purpose is achieved, should I follow the reasoning.

 

Also, I remember well the "blandness as a cover for a mystery surprise" trick from last story. :P I don't know if you are trying that again, but it may yet turn out that way even if you didn't intend it, as I am noticing familiar TPCish patterns resurfacing. The fact that it is a retelling may make the cover easier to criticize, although I am not certain.

 

Chapter 18: Much better. :) Good to see some action, and definitely liked the suspense cliffhanger ending! :) Now THAT is a taste thing. :D  

 

Wondering if Koronga will get his shifting spheres back, seeing as I think he needs shapeshifting to get back to where they are in the first place. I think he's stuck. :(


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#105 Offline TLhikan

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Posted Jun 26 2014 - 09:32 AM

 

 

We can't all, and some of us don't.

 

<_<

 

:P

 

 

 

:Well said; not much to add there.  :) I'd just add that something specific from his visions is also having a strong hold over him -- the fact that something was so traumatic to see, his mind forced him to forget it (along with a lot else). And he has no idea what it was. That is a big part of why he's being both pessimistic and "bland" -- he's terrified to take action that might cause that to happen, so he's trying to "lurk before he leaps" as it were, so that when he does take action it will be effective (he hopes). And of course there's more to it I can't discuss. 

 

Thanks! And yeah, now that you explain it, the visions he has and the memories he doesn't have are bound to be pretty traumatic as well.

 

Regarding the chapter: First off, those are awesome Zyglak sketches.

 

Your portrayal of the Zyglak and their slaughtering of Lesovikk's team is pretty brutal, so it's easy to see how broken this will leave him.

 

Koronga has that Forest Gump-like ability to always be where history is happening, although in his case, it seems to be part of his destiny. 

And like Fishers said, nice cliffhanger.

 

-TLhikan 


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#106 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jul 02 2014 - 01:16 PM

Author's Comments for Chapter 19: The Wise Healer

I decided to go ahead and release one of the later sketches made for the retelling today, the Mask of Creation. This is the non-colored version; I plan to color it (and do some other touching up) for the one to go along with a chapter (in Part Nine). I'll probably also release another later sketch (of something in 2006 plot) soon to go with an LDD project I'm working on, but plan to color it first.

Note [paragraph including "Mask of Undeath"]:

At some point, a group of mask powers will be deemed immoral by Toa, including this. I don't know if that has happened already at this point, but it would make sense that certain powers would already be disturbing.

Note:

This image is a color-edit of Karzahni's later form. It's canon that he used to have gold armor as this shows, though likely the exact design was different. In the original image the gold parts are green.

[Yes, I see that there's still some green around the eyes. GIMP's color editing tool is clunky. Only just noticed it today, and no time to fix it now. Will get to it...]

Note:

Image of the Mask of Conjuring is from another random Matoran. In the next chapter there is a clearer view of it drawn by me.





Replies to reviews:

fishers -- well, like I've said before, there's 90 chapters, so the characterization kind of has to be spread out, in terms of the sorts of things that will get mentioned, so I don't waste all the possible reactions one could have on the early chapters. In the Paracosmos I try to slow way down and make every moment the highest quality I can -- but in this one I intentionally speed things up and go minimalist to some extent, because if I did it like I do my other stories I would never get through the entire storyline in my lifetime lol. That doesn't fix it if his reactions are unrealistic, but I have a good vibe about them in general that they are. And I study people obsessively and generally predict accurately what they'll do, so yeah.

So, probably just a matter of somehow you may have expected a lot more richness of detail to it, which isn't really feasible to deliver (not for free anyways lol) here. Things like his passing through the cave in Part One, and I said nothing about the cave other than a summary, whereas in the Paracosmos I would try to describe everything I could about how the dim light plays off the rocks and the nuances of fear that you might not be able to find your way out of it and what your next step might bring in the dark. Those are usually things I like to hope I'll eventually have time to edit in, though I do have to keep in mind here that his experiences are filtered through what he would and would not include in his memoir, and I did want to keep length limits. We'll see... Does that sound nearer the mark?

And just to confirm, yes, the only way he knows of currently to get back to where he left the shapeshifting orbs would require shapeshifting to get there. Of course, there are other ways; he just doesn't have them yet. (And he can't just find the way to it and walk, as there are security systems he bypassed in liquid form.)


TL -- Another very helpful review that leaves me with little else to say. You seem to have a knack for that. =)

And yeah, Crunchbite's interpretation of the Zyglak = awesomesauce. ^_^ (But don't touch the sauce, it probably has Zyglak disease in it. But you can still tell it's awesome. That's how awesome it is.)

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#107 Offline Yaldabaoth

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Posted Jul 04 2014 - 11:19 AM

An interesting chapter. I like your depiction of Karzahni; you did a good job of communicating all the misery and madness of the place and its ruler. Also, Teridax being a good-natured arbiter is a little jarring, but if you handle his descent into darkness well, it will only make the storytelling more impressive.

 

One thing I find interesting is that Velika's already in Karzahni. It didn't take him very long to get broken, did it? :P My interpretation was that he spent a few millennia, at least, wandering around and observing the universe before some mishap or malady befell him, but in your story, he's been wounded, "repaired", and trapped within a year of takeoff. It's an interesting and different take on Velika's story than I had expected. I guess we'll have to see how that works out.


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New short story:
 
DESCENDANT, starring Kraata-Kal
 
Older stories:
 
AN EVEN EXCHANGE, starring the Makuta of Stelt
 
THE END OF THE BROTHERHOOD, starring Tobduk and Makuta Chirox

#108 Offline TLhikan

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Posted Jul 05 2014 - 11:55 AM

It just keeps getting more cheerful, doesn't it :P?

But really, the bleakness and insanity of Karzhani and his realm really comes across; the story fits really well with the somewhat disturbing images (those are from the Atlas, right?). 

 

Teridax and the other Makuta's characterizations are also of note; while they still seem to be rather decent people, the first hints of superiority are starting to creep in. 

 

Good stuff as always!
 

-TLhikan


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#109 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jul 05 2014 - 09:54 PM

fishers -- well, like I've said before, there's 90 chapters, so the characterization kind of has to be spread out, in terms of the sorts of things that will get mentioned, so I don't waste all the possible reactions one could have on the early chapters. In the Paracosmos I try to slow way down and make every moment the highest quality I can -- but in this one I intentionally speed things up and go minimalist to some extent, because if I did it like I do my other stories I would never get through the entire storyline in my lifetime lol. That doesn't fix it if his reactions are unrealistic, but I have a good vibe about them in general that they are. And I study people obsessively and generally predict accurately what they'll do, so yeah.

So, probably just a matter of somehow you may have expected a lot more richness of detail to it, which isn't really feasible to deliver (not for free anyways lol) here. Things like his passing through the cave in Part One, and I said nothing about the cave other than a summary, whereas in the Paracosmos I would try to describe everything I could about how the dim light plays off the rocks and the nuances of fear that you might not be able to find your way out of it and what your next step might bring in the dark. Those are usually things I like to hope I'll eventually have time to edit in, though I do have to keep in mind here that his experiences are filtered through what he would and would not include in his memoir, and I did want to keep length limits. We'll see... Does that sound nearer the mark?

Theory incorrect. That wham was way off. Cold. WRONG. eaaaaint.

:P

I'd still say I find it wrong though. Sometimes I honestly find detail like that to be annoying and I'm waving my "get on with the story already!" sign (or the description is so deep I can't tell what's going on, which is even more annoying and is a serious pet peeve of mine). I dislike contrived plot points that aren't explained enough though, but I don't think that this story has gotten anywhere near that mark yet.

Let me emphasize this point: the canon events, for being in this story, do not feel contrived - they flow naturally from the narrative, which is an accomplishment of itself. :)

I honestly think I meant no more and no less than what I said, bones. I don't know why you can't seem to accept the fact that I don't like Koronga very much, for being the depressing Krika that he is. :P I also find this portrayal to be flawed as mentioned and outlined previously, but the reason for his depression I find to be sound. (I also don't think a comparison of depressed characters in the BP is quite valid here BTW - while my old friend Bhukasa certainly qualifies, his sadness had to do with his past - at least he had hope. Koronga thinks that things are bad and are going to continue to be bad, the "all is lost" type. Difference there be.) You've also clearified that there's a Koronga-specific event in the future that is particularly bad - if it's not connected to canon, that was the author's choice, and I'm not a fan of how that choice plays out in these early chapters. :shrugs:


Chapter 19: I definately think that the portrayal of Makuta and Karzanhi was spot on. I'm wondering if Teridax's quick healing power genuinely didn't work, or whether the villain was holding back, seeing as this is the person he was assigned to catch.

Karzanhi, for being "minimalist", stuck me as evocative of doom. I think being there will stick with Koronga for a long time - I certainly got a dark and creepy feel of it. I always thought that Karz was a mix of dark and grim and eccentric and weird, and you've definately conveyed the mix well. I also liked the golden tree as a focal point for both. :) (I also like, ironically, that the character's mood finally matches the setting. Eeyore has finally found his native land. :P)

Wonder what's going to happen next; that could put a wrench (literally) in the circular time-travel hypothesis I was thinking was Koronga's origin, but the Energized Protodermis could fix that if that was his destiny. *wonders if this story will be like the film Limitless and fake it out *

It's going to be hard to wait for the next chapter. *insert trip to the Red Star here * *not really* 


Edited by fishers64, Jul 05 2014 - 09:59 PM.

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#110 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jul 09 2014 - 10:13 AM

Author's Comments for Chapter 20: Matter of Life and Death

Greg has now retconned something relevant to this story. Originally, the two Glatorian pilots were said to be in stasis as backup pilots, and were found murdered after Teridax's takeover. So it was believed that they were killed by Teridax at that time to prevent them from overriding his control. But now Greg says they died the year of the giant's launch, and were actually awake and were helping Mata Nui pilot the initial launch. They were supposed to eject, but something went wrong, somehow resulting in their deaths that very year. This contradicts the understanding I used for what's been written. Apparently now there was no stasis at all. I'll probably rewrite to incorporate this, but not totally sure yet.

In other news, I discovered that the disappearing dashes is controlled in TWO places in Open Office; disabling the more obvious one didn't stop it, but I found another option that does seem to permanently stop it. Yayz.

Now, I'm very interested to see reactions to this chapter! Please note -- there's one major misunderstanding that might happen; that revealing the Red Star's purpose this early ruins suspense. The reader is meant to be immediately reading on to Chapter 21, where it's shown why actually it does the opposite, for anybody who already knows of the RS from the canon (which is probably everybody at this point, that would be reading this). There's hints of it by the end of this one, of course. (However, forcing events to follow a path that "does good things for story" is off-limits in the Arena Method anyways. :) Had the RS not been here canonically, Koronga probably would have died permanently. Of course, he wrote at the start that he lives to the end, in New Atero, but we don't know even now what state he'll be in there.)

Also, sorry for the near-lack of images here. I wanted to try to draw a clearer Kestora and the interior of the RS, but ran out of time, and I also wanted to avoid any risk of spoilers. I could draw one and just not release it like I've been releasing my others on deviantart, I suppose, but it would be weird. :shrugs: But I also kinda wanted somebody else to get a chance to do them, and I couldn't put out a request without giving away spoilers too. So, consider this the offer; I could edit it in, after all. =) Also kinda wanted an image of looking down on the giant descending into the atmosphere from that window. We'll see, yeah?
 
Note:

Sketch of the Mask of Conjuring by me; it's an attempt to extrapolate the mask's full details clearly from the somewhat unclear canon image.

Note:

The ambiguity of my portrayal [of the deaths of Lesovikk's team] is intentional since the canon sources are vague about it, and at the time of writing this, we had not yet been given a definite answer. Recently Greg has indeed confirmed they were destroyed by the spears.

All we knew before that was that Lesovikk hesitated for a moment, and that enabled the Zyglak to kill his team. This does fit well with their dying quickly due to the spears, especially if they were thrown -- Lesovikk would know a strong blast of wind timed a second before could have blown the spears off course and saved his team. It makes sense missing the timing of that would haunt him forever after that.

Greg had been noncommittal about whether they were revived in the place where Koronga is now, though in recent answers (before the new answer referenced above) he seemed to lean toward a yes. However, he may have forgotten about the spears (now his new answer mentions them). Now how the earlier portrayal in this story should be taken is as Koronga's uncertain guess as to what happened, since he actually forgot, and in reality the spears killed them.

There is also uncertainty on when the thing that I have these Kestora calling “the pad” stopped working. The Kestora's grip on reality is tenuous at best, at least much later on when they were first encountered in the canon, so I'm using that to have them not really sure whether that is working at this time or not, to avoid the issue. It's certainly possible it broke down once before but was repaired, before breaking permanently later.
 
Note:

In fact Greg has confirmed they cannot revive antidermic beings -- only protodermic beings. So Makuta who die are dead for good... then again, it is extremely difficult to kill them, at least in their later form (see later chapters).

Also, Koronga's mention of fish is only his speculation. In fact, although at first Greg said Rahi were revived, he later retconned this, so they are not, as Makuta were supposed to make new Rahi if more were needed.
 
Note:

We don't yet know if the Kestora, and/or a computer, actually make judgments like this. Apparently anybody would be revived, despite Koronga's assumption, but a judgment might identify dangerous beings the Kestora should stay away from, or somebody who should be detained for breaking one of the Kestora's own rules, but see the next chapter for how this will be used in this story non-canonically. And I've implied both possibilities for who/what actually makes judgments so either is possible here.
 
Note:

We don't know the timing of when Mata Nui landed at the first alien planet, and of course the specifics of this planet are non-canon. See also a more detailed comment with the next chapter.





Replies to reviews:

Yalda -- There's several reasons why it seems likely Velika had to get damaged and go there almost right away. Karzahni only ever sent one group of repaired Matoran out (Velika being in that group), and not to where they belonged. That means workers weren't getting back to where they should be from the start, and leaders would be noticing. So, there wouldn't be a lot of time before the ban on sending anybody in would happen. Also, the most likely time when he would make an injurious mistake is when he's first learning to walk and so forth in a short, new body.

You could plausibly stretch it out a few decades, maybe, but millenia seems highly unlikely. Greg might disagree, I don't know, but in any case, I wanted the reader to be shown as much as possible, and Koronga won't have a chance to go back there until after that group leaves (as I planned it and then wrote it, anyways), so I opted for the earlier interpretation since either could be plausible.
 
 
TL -- that's correct. :)



fishers -- To your question of why I said what I said rather than just accepting that you don't like the personality -- two major reasons. First, if somebody is having trouble enjoying it, it makes sense to see if there's some sort of misunderstanding underlying that taste reaction, to try to help it grow on them. :) Second, talking it out helps pin down what specific edits might help you enjoy it more (as your latest answer demonstrates).

I wonder if this is clear -- did you get that his recognizing negatives is actually a positive attitude? I almost get the vibe from your posts that -- jokes aside -- you actually think he believes everything is hopeless. Seeing real problems for many people here might be that, but he is hoping he'll be in a position to do something about it. Can't fix it if you don't know it, you know? And we've actually seen him be quite naive several times, like with Metus, or now with Karzahni -- he's really a lot more positive than he should be, often. :P

Also, I'm not sure how to take your statement about author's choice. Honestly, if I used a character who wasn't so quick to think of possible dangers, he probably would have died on Spherus Magna, out of the scanning zone of the Red Star, and that would be that. Picture Taipu's error, but with deadly consequences. So I don't really feel that I had a lot of valid options there, at least not without appealing to Deus Ex Machine all the time (in non-canon ways :P) to rescue him. But I may still be misunderstanding you. :shrugs:

Edited by bonesiii, Jul 30 2014 - 12:58 PM.

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#111 Offline Akavakaku

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Posted Jul 09 2014 - 03:14 PM

How is the Mask of Conjuring automatically purple? Excluding masks of legend, I thought all Kanohi changed color to match the wearer.
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#112 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jul 09 2014 - 04:24 PM

How is the Mask of Conjuring automatically purple? Excluding masks of legend, I thought all Kanohi changed color to match the wearer.

Nearly all of the masks were painted by Matoran - they are all automatically grey, but someone painted these to be purple. :shrugs:

 

* * *

Replying backwards to reinforce my points :P
 
Chapter 20: :D It just keeps getting better. I definately liked the uncertainty at the beginning. It's a rare day when one of my theories is correct, so I'm pleasantly surprised. Definately audacious. :)
 
I found the Kestora to be a sort of creepy funny. I'm not going to spoil the jokes, but the Science of Tuesdays has indeed made a return lol. (Although I'm not sure why the Kestora would know about Tuesdays, seeing as Tuesdays are an inherently human construct, but whatever. That just makes the joke more funny.)
 
Also I like the opportunity Koronga has to make himself an OP weapon and he takes it. "Can I have one more power? Just one more?" :P I don't know if there was some editing to make it this good based on previous comments :P, but I'm not going to complain about the final result. Yet.
 
* * *
...replying to discussion... 
 

I wonder if this is clear -- did you get that his recognizing negatives is actually a positive attitude?

Uh, no...If you see negative stuff, you're negative. If you see positive stuff, you're positive. Usually. 
 
I mean, if you're negative and you don't know why you're negative and you don't want to know why you're negative because it's negative, that's really bad. When in reality if you know why you're negative and you let go of it, positivity creeps in. Koronga has this problem, yes? He's so negative that he's even forgotten why he's negative. He needs to know why he's negative in order to fix the real problem, but the problem is so negative he won't think about it or even remember it. Yes?
 
Unless the memory loss has some physical cause. No wonder this being likes physics, right? He wants to avoid the negative memory, so he keeps researching physics to pass off his memory loss to physics so he doesn't have to deal with the fact that he's being negative and suppressing his negative memories himself!
 
See what I mean? Do I have evidence to deny that sentence above that ends in an explanation point? At this point, I do not. 
 
In further case, it appears that the negative memory is dampening his mood from a positive emotional outlook considerably. He is expecting more of himself than he can reasonably know or accomplish, yelling at himself for making mistakes that he logically would have made. That's not positivity, that's trying to end psychological negativity by irrational means - trying to get out from under that without addressing the root cause (because of the root cause being negative, and the person trying to get away from negativity). It's negatively motivated, it causes more negativity when the impossible is not achieved, and basically an endless cycle of negativity and doom.
 
This is NOT to be confused with the normal process of recognizing a problem and crafting a plan/solution to fix it. This is inherently positive, since not only you know that the problem exists (and now can fix it before it gets worse) but you know how to fix it, which boosts self-confidence and all the other good stuff.
 
But do I see a character solving problems? Especially in 20, he does do that. But half the time he's berating himself for not managing to avoid errors that no being in his position could have avoided. He's letting the negative memory he won't remember to cloud his perspective on life, and make him negative and recognize more negative stuff. 
 
Now I'm probably very wrong on some points of the above. But that's what I'm seeing. :bigeek: 
 

I almost get the vibe from your posts that -- jokes aside -- you actually think he believes everything is hopeless.

For the most part, yeah. Until we got to 20. See above. 
 
I might almost berate you for making Koronga OOC in 20 lol, except for:

I grinned. My grin faded a moment later when I realized how close once again I'd come to making a serious mistake -- I could have just left the room as they'd commanded. The consequence of that error would not be death -- I would just never know that there might be a simple way to get back to the giant's control room.
 
Come to think of it, my error with the Zyglak was the same. I hadn't imagined they would carry such a disease -- I couldn't really be blamed for not thinking of that, but I should have researched them more, since I knew they were a danger.

 

And we've actually seen him be quite naive several times, like with Metus, or now with Karzahni -- he's really a lot more positive than he should be, often. :P

Realistic lack of knowledge is realistic. :P     
 

Also, I'm not sure how to take your statement about author's choice. Honestly, if I used a character who wasn't so quick to think of possible dangers, he probably would have died on Spherus Magna, out of the scanning zone of the Red Star, and that would be that.

You choose to give him that negative memory, bones. :(


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#113 Offline TLhikan

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Posted Jul 11 2014 - 09:51 AM

No lasers from that sword Koronga :P
 
Spoiler


-TLhikan.

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"So I'm TL now?"
"Yeah, 'cuz if we said it the other way it'd have to be TLhiKHAAN!!"


#114 Offline NuvaTube

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Posted Jul 11 2014 - 02:12 PM

YES! The dialogue of the Kestora is one of the best things you've written for the DoB so far! It's so hilarious but consistent with them. Reminded me a little of Monty Python slightly for the ridiculousness. It's interesting that you made them seem a little crazy this early on though. Two things that I think could have been better:

 

1. When we see them in canon, I think Greg mentioned that part of their creepiness is the way that they just think of our characters as objects and so don't consider their feelings. I think it would be better if they always referred to Koronga as "it" instead of "him".

 

2. I'm not sure whether I really want this, but when they say something like "except on Tuesdays", do we have any evidence that MU or SM weekdays are like Human ones? On the other hand, that line was really funny because it felt like it was tapping, but not breaking, the fourth wall. It actually made me laugh out loud :)

 

Interesting how the Red Star revived him despite him not being a GB/Artahka-made Matoran. I had wondered at the differences between Koronga and normal Matoran (aside from his Intuition). It seems any physical differences are extremely minor if the RS can't differentiate him.

 

Really, really loved this chapter. Probably my favourite so far! :)


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#115 Offline Yaldabaoth

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Posted Jul 14 2014 - 03:38 PM

Love the portrayal of the Kestora, and the Red Star, to boot. Also, I'm in the camp that holds Nikila & co. weren't resurrected, so thanks for leaving it open to interpretation.

 

About the Glatorian pilots -- the BS01 wisdom was that they died in the Great Cataclysm, actually, but in retrospect, being killed by Teridax would make more sense. Of course, Greg's current story throws all that out the eject window, so who knows?


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New short story:
 
DESCENDANT, starring Kraata-Kal
 
Older stories:
 
AN EVEN EXCHANGE, starring the Makuta of Stelt
 
THE END OF THE BROTHERHOOD, starring Tobduk and Makuta Chirox

#116 Offline RahkshiToa88

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Posted Jul 15 2014 - 12:23 PM

The Kestora are hilarious, Koronga gets an awesome sword (though its a bit overpowered) and we get a look into the Red Star- this chapter was amazing! Too bad the Kestora are only on the Red Star.


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#117 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jul 16 2014 - 05:27 PM

Author's Comments for Chapter 21: Cultural Contamination

I've now revealed that project I mentioned, and the early sketch for the retelling (although I decided later not to color the sketch, even though I had hoped to... maybe I eventually will, though). First, "Micro-Bionicle", a System LDDE project to make Bionicle Rahi, places, and eventually more at Minifig and similar scales:

http://www.bzpower.c...ni-nui-in-ldde/

Like other projects I've revealed already, I'll probably link to this in the Appendix. The Kini-Nui image with the sensors revealed I might actually link to in the story, at least in a comment (though Koronga wouldn't be able to see the sensors).

And the sketch, which is a coolified protodite:

http://www.bzpower.c...3621-protodite/

[Incidentally, the sketch topic has zero replies. One or two would be nice. Pleaserzorz? =|


In other news, my photobucket account hit this month's bandwidth limit thanks to retelling images. This time I'm going to just wait until the 17th (that would be tomorrow) when it allegedly resets to zero, and swap some out for brickshelf versions (I had originally planned to use brickshelf entirely but the folder glitched). I could pay $3 a month on photobucket to eliminate the problem, but I = poor, so I'll look for any other option first. Maybe just making multiple brickshelf folders would do it, I dunno. I've made one for this chapter's pics. We'll see how that goes. I'm also swapping out some of the early ones for the brickshelf versions from before the folder glitched, that still work.

Note:

The image shown for the camouflage island here is one of several very early concept art pieces for Bionicle that I'm repurposing in Chapter 21. None of them are canon, but it is known that Mata Nui did land on countless alien worlds and an adventure very much like the one Koronga embarks on in this chapter could have happened at some point. I have put such an incident at the first alien planet on the reasoning that Mata Nui is making beginner's mistakes this time.

Note [paragraph containing "fly to Metru Nui"]:

Actually the Toa Mata's canisters fly to the camouflage island first, although it's presumed that if they happen to launch while the giant is in space (if Mata Nui were to fall asleep there), they would go directly to Metru Nui.

Note ["I suspected there was actually some kind of hyperdrive"]:

I originally wrote this with the intent that there would indeed be a hyperdrive as what little we knew at the time seemed to confirm it. But it has recently been confirmed that there were actually other inhabited planets in the same star system, and that Greg does not consider the giant robot to have a hyperdrive. Luckily those two reveals together make this still work within the canon gap so far as we know, but in the same system.

Of course, the specifics of this alien world are non-canon, whether for one in the Solis Magna system or not. But I now picture this as a nearby neighbor to Spherus Magna, orbiting the same star. Later in this story I have Mata Nui going to other stars, which probably happened canonically, but the number of planets he visits will have to be dramatically less than what I had in mind (not that it really matters, as the story focuses on internal events).

Note:

The 'seed' shown here was the original prototype concept that was later turned into the Toa Mata's canisters, which fans of Bionicle were first introduced to in story that takes place 100,000 years after this point in my story.





Replies to reviews:

Akavakaku -- I generally tried to repurpose canon images without much editing of them, though some were changed just to have variety. So, since the canon image of some random Matoran with the Mask of Conjuring showed it purple, and I liked that image as-is (and there's no in-story reason it couldn't be purple, especially because the other person we saw with it wasn't a major character at all), it was purple. Also, I seem to vaguely recall actually trying to color edit it in GIMP, but that image didn't happen to work well with its limited color editor. I might be confusing it with a different image; it was a while ago. :P

As for masks changing color, you're thinking of powered Kanohi. Matoran masks are painted, so they stay whatever color they were painted. (Unless you paint them again.) This was why some of the Matoran on Mata Nui changed mask colors when they got different masks, for example. :)


fishers -- Well, part of it is that he doesn't yet know the true nature of destiny or his role in it -- the question he asked near the start, of what he can do about what he saw, remains unanswered. So, while he has the hope to do something about the grand conflict to come, it's only a hope; he doesn't have specifics on what is actually possible or how to do it. But it's a stubborn hope, and he's determined to see it through even the darkest of events. If you think about it, that's perhaps the most positive attitude of all, whereas somebody who was afraid to recognize the bad would have a fragile positive attitude, not a resilient one.

Of course, he's going to go through problems like that; it is, of course, a learning experience, but that's his basic personality. If it wasn't, he would have given up already.

As to my choice to give him the vision -- well, again, the story largely presented itself based on what we know, and what a retelling needs. There would have been no other way to do so many things in one action, like not trying to hide from the reader major things that everybody already knows like the giant robot battle, and that also enabled the main antagonist to have a presence in the inciting incident, before he even existed yet. And if he didn't know it was coming, he really couldn't have done anything major about it anyways; I would have had to appeal to "lucky accidents" way more often to have him observing events or having any major role. The list could go on.

So, are there other ways to do it? Probably, but the assumption that those would necessarily be a more enjoyable story doesn't seem realistic to me. Ultimately, an author chooses what happens, even in the Arena Method (choosing the arena), but it's not like all choices are equally plausible or consistent. Also, stories are about trouble, as one of my profs would put it -- so negatives come with the territory by definition, you know? Besides, if he didn't know the danger of the future, there is still possibility for fear of the unknown.



NT -- 1) Interesting idea, but they referred to Gaardus as him (or "his fault"). And they also mention "you got what you came for", so it does seem they're aware of their feelings, they just don't care. (At least they will be later. :shrugs:) I'd rather not change it as I suspect it would be too jarring. But I'm not 100% sure.

2) You could just consider it translated from whatever equivalent they might have. :P If the joke worked, I'm inclined to leave it in, yanno? =)



Yalda -- Yeah, I knew about the GC thing, but previous post was long. Incidentally, I just looked up the original source, and it seems both theories were wrong from the start; Bomonga says:

"They have been dead many, many thousands of years."


(How'd we miss this lol?) GC was just one thousand. And no way that could be Makuta's doing, at least not at the takeover. So Greg's revelation fits after all. So yeah... I'll definitely be editing accordingly. It won't really affect anything major.



RT88 -- I know, right? :P (Well, they're in the City of Silver dimension too, but I didn't have space to have any dialogue from them in this story there.)

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#118 Offline LanceMuch7

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Posted Jul 16 2014 - 10:35 PM

Wow, like every good book, you're definitely on a roll now. The mention of the stone at the end almost made my mouth drop.

Is the creation of that "disguise island" canon? It makes so much sense if so. I've always wondered how an island outside of the robot settled onto Mata Nui's face.

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#119 Offline TLhikan

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Posted Jul 17 2014 - 04:31 PM

This was probably one of the most interesting chapters, and the ending was great. It'll be fun to see any other alien worlds that Mata Nui may arrive on. I can't help but wonder what will happen if Mata Nui lands on a world where the inhabitants are the kind that get suspicious about random islands appearing out of nowhere, and *can't* be scared off by our hero...

 

-TLhikan


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#120 Offline NuvaTube

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Posted Jul 19 2014 - 10:25 AM

ALJDHASLDJHASDJHASJKLDH MATA NUI! MATA NUI! MATA NUI! MATA NUII!!!!!!!!!!!!!! O_O :D

 

Cool to see a completely non-canon episode, nice use of the Faber files! I really liked this episode, I'm still a little confused on what the alien culture was about, but one would expect that we're likely to find out at least a little more about them?

 

Also, it's occurred to me how deadly Koronga can be with his shapshifting power. Even if he can't imitate powers, being able to turn liquid or generate spikes basically instantaneously (unlike Makuta shape shifting) is a HUGE assest. So long as he sees an attack coming I think he could deal with most things really.

 

Also, did you explain his RS Sword's power source? Protodermis may enable virtually infinite powers, but surely it still need a power source? I guess you could say it's power source can vary from electricity to heat to life energy (so Koronga could overeat to recharge his sword)?


Edited by NuvaTube, Jul 19 2014 - 10:26 AM.

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