Quick Great Being Theory

[fishers64]

Recently, the subject has come up of whether the GBs have abilities innately, or as a function of advanced technology. This has centered around instances in story where the GBs appear to have innate abilities, such as the insane GB's "dimension reach Kanohi turn-off", or the two GBs appearing invisible to the Matoran. Recent reveals seem to relate them to the Glatorian and Agori, however, who don't have powers.

 

We also know that the Great Beings have given implants to Glatorian and Agori, giving them enhanced abilities.

 

My theory is that the Great Beings did this for themselves, possibly to a greater extent. They invented protodermis, with the powers of Dimensional Gates and Concealment. I don't see why, with all the implant tech and their new high-powered substance, why they wouldn't have put two and two together, unless it was technologically impossible.

 

If possible, this could explain why the insane GB didn't lose the ability to manipulate dimensions. If he had an implant in him before he touched the Mask of Life, it would be difficult to remove it, because the surgical tools would come alive.

 

What do you think?

[JAG18]

Seems like a fair conclusion to draw; although I, for one, would like to know what exactly they "implanted" into themselves.

 

Another thought, this actually might explain how Velika was able to make a bomb large enough to destroy the entire GB fortress even though he wasn't near any GB lab or any lab for that matter.

[fishers64]

Seems like a fair conclusion to draw; although I, for one, would like to know what exactly they "implanted" into themselves.

Me thinks it would be anything that they wanted. For example, if one GB wanted to be invisible, they could implant it in; another would want to do telekinesis, so take that implant. Other implants, like the one used to "be invisible to all Matoran" could be more standard.

 

There might be a limit to how many implants they could safely manipulate, however. Also, they don't seem like the type to start gorging themselves with implants just to get a bunch of powers - they're creators, after all, as their first motive. But they might have this option if they need it.

 

Another thought, this actually might explain how Velika was able to make a bomb large enough to destroy the entire GB fortress even though he wasn't near any GB lab or any lab for that matter.

I don't know why an implant would help with this. Further, Velika is in Matoran form right now. I would rather chalk it up to his knowledge - surely a creator can design-rig a bomb.

Edited March 2, 2014 by fishers64

[JAG18]

Another thought, this actually might explain how Velika was able to make a bomb large enough to destroy the entire GB fortress even though he wasn't near any GB lab or any lab for that matter.

I don't know why an implant would help with this. Further, Velika is in Matoran form right now. I would rather chalk it up to his knowledge - surely a creator can design-rig a bomb.

*Facepalm* Forgot he's a little Matoran, but I guess your right about the ease of creating an IED.

[Katuko]

The GBs designed Toa - and some other species - to be able to swap powers by including them in Kanohi masks. Other powers are found in tools and weapons, with many non-projectile weapons also triggered mentally. It makes sense that there is a generic "activate protodermic power" piece of tech that can be included in the face and palms (but also points of magnetic attachment devices) of the biomechanical beings, with the Great Beings themselves likely having a similar implant that can register and trigger powers via brainwaves or whatever. They made Toa of Psionics, which can read the minds of non-Matoran (the Vorox Kabrua, for example), so evidently the brains of the biomechs are very similar to the brains of the "originals".

 

Adding powers to a Great Being could therefore require only a few implants, so long as they had a generic "power trigger" implant and the actual powers were just added as plugins of sorts. For example, a Great Being could have a power interface implanted in his arm, and then he could wear a gauntlet where he'd attach specific pieces of protodermis with Kanohi-equivalent powers ... or something like that. Like, a miniature Kanoka disk, if you will. Imagine the actual LEGO set size of the disk. You stick that in a slot on your gauntlet and/or implant, and then whenever you mentally command it to do so, the power will trigger.

 

Alternately, perhaps the implant process is a bit more complex and permanent than the Kanohi process, which could be a streamlining of the system first made possible when they were experimenting with making robotic beings use the powers the Great Beings already made for themselves?

[bonesiii]

If I'm reading this right, you're saying the GBs probably put technological implants in themselves too? I agree and have concluded that years ago.

 

However, I still suspect there's more to it.

[ALVIS]

The Great Beings' earliest known action was their confrontation with Annona, in which she made mental contact and they "took the dreams from [her]". Perhaps this means that they took not only some of her imagination, but some of her extensive psionic powers as well? Both the powers of "concealment from MU inhabitants" and "inter-dimensional telepathy" fit under the psionic umbrella, so it's not unreasonable to theorize they are of Annonic origin. (Just coined a new term there; I like it. Gonna use that to refer to Spherus Magna's prehistory.)

[LockmanCapulet]

The Great Beings' earliest known action was their confrontation with Annona, in which she made mental contact and they "took the dreams from [her]". Perhaps this means that they took not only some of her imagination, but some of her extensive psionic powers as well? Both the powers of "concealment from MU inhabitants" and "inter-dimensional telepathy" fit under the psionic umbrella, so it's not unreasonable to theorize they are of Annonic origin. (Just coined a new term there; I like it. Gonna use that to refer to Spherus Magna's prehistory.)

"Annonic." I love it. Someone call Merriam-Webster!

 

I always assumed they had actual powers of some sort, but never really thought what. Regarding technology, I just kind of figured they had mastered it to the point where they had some sort of (artificial, obviously) connection to it, maybe able to control it with their minds. No real basis for this, I just thought that would make sense.

[~TSO~]

I always imagined Great Beings being the next evolution step of one of Spherus Magna species. Very far step of course, but not artificial. Point of view of everything fantasy/magical in Bionicle being just "something artificial" is too boring, uninteresting and clichéd. Mata Nui, why this stuff is so popular?.. =(

[Katuko]

I always imagined Great Beings being the next evolution step of one of Spherus Magna species. Very far step of course, but not artificial. Point of view of everything fantasy/magical in Bionicle being just "something artificial" is too boring, uninteresting and clichéd. Mata Nui, why this stuff is so popular?.. =(

Because calling it "magic" can be even more thoughtless. If you call it technology, you at least have to have some vague idea of how it's supposed to work, whereas magic is usually the one that gets the "it just works like this, don't question it" treatment. Heck, that's what pretty much what "magic" means! Something beyond normal people, which we can't explain. Functional/understood magic is science.

[bonesiii]

Basically it's another taste thing, TSO. And it can also be a mood thing. I can see it both ways depending on the mood I'm in. But technology definitely isn't uninteresting! Neither are other things; why not find it all interesting? Ultimately it's all the same thing just in different specific types -- physics and psychology and mystery (in that any character can be unaware of how anything works if there's no reason they would happen to know it). Attaching an emotional connotation to one or the other is more a matter of habit than anything real.

Edited March 4, 2014 by bonesiii

[fishers64]

If I'm reading this right, you're saying the GBs probably put technological implants in themselves too? I agree and have concluded that years ago.

 

However, I still suspect there's more to it.

Correct.

 

Really, the surprise to me is that nobody brought this up before in these sort of debates. Or maybe I missed it; I don't know.

 

The Great Beings' earliest known action was their confrontation with Annona, in which she made mental contact and they "took the dreams from [her]". Perhaps this means that they took not only some of her imagination, but some of her extensive psionic powers as well? Both the powers of "concealment from MU inhabitants" and "inter-dimensional telepathy" fit under the psionic umbrella, so it's not unreasonable to theorize they are of Annonic origin. (Just coined a new term there; I like it. Gonna use that to refer to Spherus Magna's prehistory.)

 

Yes, but being able to switch off Kanohi masks and do dimensional travel/teleportation seems out of the purview of psionics. However, it does go under the purview of protodermis and the Mask of Dimensional Gates, so an implant to use that seems likely.

[ALVIS]

Nitpick: We have never seen a GB "do dimensional travel/teleportation", only communicate with a "nanotech" inhabitant across dimensions. We have seen events that suggest that the mad GB explained to Vezon how to utilize the Kanohi Olmak and get to Bota Magna. That activity probably falls under the umbrella of "I made this tech, I know how it works" rather than Psionics, true.

 

As for switching off Kanohi, I'd say it's more Psionic than anything else. It might be that the mad GB was able to somehow track down Vezon's "signal", even across dimensions, and then telepathically shut off his Kanohi ability. Either that or he has some kind of switch-off device.

[~TSO~]

If you call it technology, you at least have to have some vague idea of how it's supposed to work

Why can't you make ideas about mythology and creatures or powers beyond any understanding? Of course making them serious, on hard basis.

 

whereas magic is usually the one that gets the "it just works like this, don't question it" treatment.

No. Firstly, to say such thing as "it's magic, it just works" is a childish way to speculate. And I did not mean to ask anyone to stop arguing and discussing because "just let it be as it is".

Okay, I can put away word magic and use special abilities if its more acceptable for you. =) Bionicle always (yeah, even Metru Nui part) have been mostly tribal fantasy world with technical elements. Not everything here was artificial as there were a lot of powers that seemed to be natural. For me it is the huge opportunity to get ideas of how works as well as technologies are for you.

Actually, I dare to say, explain everything strange with technology is in some way cheating, a try to avoid difficulties.

 

But technology definitely isn't uninteresting!

It isnt uninteresting, when you use it properly. When one begin explain absolutely everything with science, this changes the way we see the whole setting.

E.g., Vakamas visions. Seems everyone is okay with glitch explanation, to me its wrong to accept it like that. Well Why visions should be a glitch, a mistake, a bug in programming but not a REAL visions? I could understand if that was the only thing technofied, but as I watched new theories in last two years there were a lot of attempts to make Bionicle universe completely sci-fi. And here we have another one.

I just hope that BZP wont bother Greg with getting this canonized one day. To imagine things is great, until it becomes too serious.

 

 

p.s. Im sorry for any spelling/grammar mistakes, "eengliss" is not my native language. =)

[Katuko]

Why can't you make ideas about mythology and creatures or powers beyond any understanding? Of course making them serious, on hard basis.

...I can? Heck, whatever makes protodermic science work is not explainable in any way. It's still the sci-fi version of magic, we've just broken it down to protodermis being the magic part, rather than each individual object being magic.

 

 

whereas magic is usually the one that gets the "it just works like this, don't question it" treatment.

No. Firstly, to say such thing as "it's magic, it just works" is a childish way to speculate.

 

That would be my point. I find it interesting to speculate in how things work - and whether you call it magic or science it is still once and the same. The "magic" in some fictional settings is understood according to rules about geometric summoning circles, alchemical ingredients, a flow of mana in the ground, etc. It's still "magic" that can not be 100% explained, but it is also "science".

 

Okay, I can put away word magic and use special abilities if its more acceptable for you. =) Bionicle always (yeah, even Metru Nui part) have been mostly tribal fantasy world with technical elements. Not everything here was artificial as there were a lot of powers that seemed to be natural. For me it is the huge opportunity to get ideas of how works as well as technologies are for you.

Actually, I dare to say, explain everything strange with technology is in some way cheating, a try to avoid difficulties.

That last sentence pretty much sums it up. The setting is still the same, pretty much. We knew in 2001 that Kanohi could be forged by someone - they were metal objects and had to come from somewhere. We knew that the Great Beings created both bio-mechanical beings (which points to them as inventors of machines as well as magic and life) and the GReat Spirit - and spirits are still complete "magic" in this setting, even if we end up calling them a cloud of nano-molecules or whatever at some point.

 

Maybe the words used change some minor things, but I don't quite see it. Whatever it is called, we still have characters materializing primal elements out of thin air, and a sentient puddle of silver liquid that can transform you at will. That last one is still not explained, by the way. Energized Protodermis is still a living thing of some kind, with protodermis being the artificial form.

 

E.g., Vakamas visions. Seems everyone is okay with glitch explanation, to me its wrong to accept it like that. Well Why visions should be a glitch, a mistake, a bug in programming but not a REAL visions? I could understand if that was the only thing technofied, but as I watched new theories in last two years there were a lot of attempts to make Bionicle universe completely sci-fi. And here we have another one.

I've never cared for those explanations either, but I should mention I never liked visions in stories either. So while "glitch in the code" sounds stupid to me, it is stupid for the same reason I view "visions" as stupid in most stories that feature them: they come from the future, which brings up all sorts of speculation about pre-determinism and potential time travel that are subjects I honestly do not care for.

 

The visions in MNOG were nicely done. They linked Takua and Gali in a dramatic and mysterious way, without actually being messages from the future. They were messages of the present - a telepathic bond. Vakama's visions, and the one that Gaaki had... meh. Mask of Clairvoyance could have been left out entirely for my tastes. So could the Mask of Probabilities, for that matter.

 

I just hope that BZP wont bother Greg with getting this canonized one day. To imagine things is great, until it becomes too serious.

From what we've seen of the Great Beings, they do not have innate powers. I don't really care whether they have them or not, they are still tech masters to the point of being magic anyways. Furthermore, I too have disagreed with suggestions that make things overly complicated in terms of tech, but I do not see a problem with "techifying" certain things. As mentioned, we have always known that there were lots of tech around, even on Mata Nui. And as said: No matter how much we describe the advanced tech behind Toa, for example, we will never get past the fact that protodermis is entirely magic.

 

It makes sense that the Toa - being cyborgs, almost - have some sort of connectors in their face that allow them to use masks. It's not a socket, it's some sort of magnetic bond. And sci-fi magnetism/face connection might as well be The Force -- and the Force is also magic in a tech setting. Only difference is that they call it Midichlorians, Transformers call it the (All)Spark, and BIONICLE calls it Protodermis.

[bonesiii]

Why can't you make ideas about mythology and creatures or powers beyond any understanding?

Here's the problem with your approach. You don't understand why other people like different things than you. Right there alone, you have something you can be content with not understanding, if that's really something you want. We shouldn't need to explain it to you so that you then understand it. Because then you lose something that you didn't understand.

 

Did you ever think about that?

 

Here you are, lacking understanding, and that lack of understanding evidently is not making you happier, is it? It's causing annoyance to you. But I understand it and I'm not annoyed by it, quite the contrary, I love it! Notice your original wording: "Mata Nui, why this stuff is so popular?" If lacking understanding is really da bomb, then why are you upset? You should be enthralled by the mystery of why we love this stuff.

 

At the same time, I also understand the thrill of a still-unsolved mystery. But I've never seen one yet that doesn't have a conceivable explanation. Even protodermis. I don't mean in all the specifics such that you could actually manufacture it, and I don't mean attainable by human tech, but the basic principles being understandable. If people say "it can't be explained" IMO that generally just means they don't feel like trying.

 

The thrill of an unsolved mystery is good for a while, but it gets old, and then you start to want to gain a thrill of the process of discovery, of the thing itself, and then of all the fascinating implications, etc. It's a growth process, of infancy to maturity. If you just leave it a mystery, it can't go anywhere, and you don't really have a story.

 

The idea also fails at suspension of disbelief. You don't like your lack of understanding in this world because you recognize on some level, perhaps subconsciously, that understanding it might help get rid of issues. It might lessen your annoyance, it might help you see our point of view, or at best might help you express to us why yours was better, if it were. (And don't make the mistake of oversimplifying everything into just one or the other.)

 

Well, characters live in their worlds too. You might want them to remain ignorant, but they don't. A good mystery exists to be solved, precisely because the solving of it could prove important.

 

E.g., Vakamas visions. Seems everyone is okay with glitch explanation, to me its wrong to accept it like that. Well Why visions should be a glitch, a mistake, a bug in programming but not a REAL visions? I could understand if that was the only thing technofied, but as I watched new theories in last two years there were a lot of attempts to make Bionicle universe completely sci-fi. And here we have another one.

 

All I can say is that this seems a very superficial way to look at it. The "glitch" only opens Vakama up to have access to something. It doesn't explain the visions. But what you're really saying is you don't want visions explained. Okay, if that's a taste you've actually got for some reason, that's fine, but your appeal to your taste means you should accept that others have other tastes too. You can't use a taste as a premise in an argument for what other people should or should not like. To do so invalidates your own premise that your taste is valuable simply because it happens to be your taste -- other people's preferences happen to be theirs too.

 

Also, I really hope people are open minded enough to consider new ways of looking at things.

 

So far as sci-fi goes, Greg confirmed that Bionicle's take on everything 'magic' in it is science that just isn't understood. So a "how" is there. Which really, is logically necessary no matter whether he had said that or not. The main reasons Bionicle didn't often go there was to avoid getting too technical for the kiddies, to avoid painting into corners, and that of course the writers themselves often didn't have much of a scientific background to be able to fill in that kind of detail for a plastic toy.

 

So, it is already sci-fi, but a "solve the mystery" type rather than a "explain it all up front" type, and of course much of the detail has to be imagined by fans to fill in the necessary gaps in canon.

 

Not everything here was artificial as there were a lot of powers that seemed to be natural. For me it is the huge opportunity to get ideas of how works as well as technologies are for you.

Actually, I dare to say, explain everything strange with technology is in some way cheating, a try to avoid difficulties.

Problem with this is that first, it's a straw man -- I don't see us as trying to fit everything into technology -- what we want is for it to be understandable, and that is really the thing you're apparently arguing against, as seen in the quote I led this post with. That applies both to "natural" and technology. Anyways, people throw "technology" around as if it's somehow obvious that it's bad but this appears to me to be entirely detached from reality. What is technology but the use of the physics of the world you live in?

 

To say that intelligent beings like the Great Beings would not make use of their study of their world's physics to solve problems, to Make a Tool... well, it just doesn't make sense, you know? If you were them, naturally inventive, etc. -- would you fail to invent?

 

Surely not.

Edited March 6, 2014 by bonesiii

[FallenCor]

You guys are going to be the death of what little remains of my sleeping schedule.

In all seriousness, though, I'm curious about what each of you think the implants are. Something as simple as nanotechnology/computer-chip in their head (Generator Rex or Intelligence style), or something more complex like turning partially cyborg? Personally, I've been somewhat rolling with the idea that they use a combo of *~PSYCHIC POWERS~* and special gear they reserve only for themselves.

Somebody said something about how the GBs are invisible to Matoran (and I'm too lazy to find the post), and that got me thinking: Perhaps they don't need a separate power for that. Maybe it's as simple as them using their psychic abilities to block themselves from the minds of the Matoran, or even using a piece of tech to do so. I can't remember if it was an episode of Doctor Who or something else entirely, but the main characters once used a device like that to slip past the enemy. Somehow it caused the antagonists to not take notice of the protagonists, even when they were standing mere feet away. Sounds kind of GB-style to me, ha ha.

[bonesiii]

The only thing I would be "sure" of is basic life-enhancing implants just like Agori. I suspect their primary abilities "are Annonic" as it was put before (psionics power added to them similar to the Element Lords' powers added to them). However, they may have later enhanced these with technology.

 

For the moment I think I'd rather just think of these things as "on the table" rather than how I actually imagine them, though.

[FallenCor]

For the moment I think I'd rather just think of these things as "on the table" rather than how I actually imagine them, though.

Fair enough.

 

I assume by "life-enhancing" you mean that said implants are responsible for everyone's longevity (even that of the GBs, perhaps)? I've been neglectful in studying the SM side of the storyline, so pardon my ignorance, Sensei. But this is for another time.

 

Another thing I've been musing on today: Anyone else find it funny that the insane GB hasn't been "fixed" yet? For all their mystic brilliance, you'd think his fellows would have helped the poor guy by now... Then again, if they tried to give him some physical device for it (implant or otherwise), it would probably just come to life. :|

[~TSO~]

Here's the problem with your approach.

Oh, man, you're trying to get psychology on me.

Let's pretend you've managed to do that.

 

You don't understand why other people like different things than you.

<…>

Here you are, lacking understanding, and that lack of understanding evidently is not making you happier, is it? It's causing annoyance to you.

First of all: I clearly understand that there're people with absolutely different interests.

 

Secondly, I do not lack understanding, and subsequently I am not annoyed with it. For the things we do not know in Bionicle I have a huge headcanon developed as many other people do. And I do love read other people thoughts about their own ideas and theories – many had very little in common with my own concept, still they were interesting to me. But that does not mean I would agree with any of them. Even when fans try to explain something they don't know about, there is always some field of freedom. You should know it. And this 'field' is defined by the original 'canon' mythology... well, maybe I should call it "direction of canon mythology"? >_< Sorry again, can’t find the right term.

 

Thirdly… summing up said before I think you definitely didn’t get what I meant, so if you don’t mind I’ll skip your words about "process of discovery" and repeating "lack of understanding". I have little problem with that.

 

The "glitch" only opens Vakama up to have access to something.

Well, it does make sense since it's the same thing which makes fantasy characters see visions. And so it depreciates calling it a "glitch".

 

But what you're really saying is you don't want visions explained.

WHAT.

I'm sorry again and again -- I did not say anything like this.

What I was saying is that I do not want them being explained scientifically. And this is actually the thing I don't like here on BZP in last few years. Sometimes you're going too far in technology and science, as if forgetting Bionicle original unity of both technology and natural/unnatural powers.

 

Okay, if that's a taste you've actually got for some reason, that's fine, but your appeal to your taste means you should accept that others have other tastes too.

I can say that in general you are right. I can try to explain my sudden heart-cry:

What does annoy me (and makes me unhappy, ho-ho) is quantity of theories written in "omg-this-is-cool-and-we-should-make-it-happen" mood. Maybe they are greatly developed but that doesn't make them good. And I'm a bit afraid that when (or "if") Greg would return to continue Bionicle storyline, another bunch of -- I'm sorry -- stupid ideas again will get into canon. There're enough of them already.

And that why I'm very frustrated while reading another one "techno" theory. A lot of same themed ideas IS NOT interesting.

 

To say that intelligent beings like the Great Beings would not make use of their study of their world's physics to solve problems, to Make a Tool... well, it just doesn't make sense, you know? If you were them, naturally inventive, etc. -- would you fail to invent?

Surely not.

Of course not. But that does not mean at all that all their powers should be technologically invented.

 

So far as sci-fi goes, Greg confirmed that Bionicle's take on everything 'magic' in it is science that just isn't understood.

Oh, he actually did it? Heck. Greg also made up that awful mind-blowing Red Star revelation. So as far as sci-fi goes... situation is getting worse.

 

Almost forgot: some time ago I wanted to share with you my vision/theory of energized protodermis, that likes to watch and play with these funny little creatures of nature, being the entity of High Consciousness/god/a Creator, something that lies between or at the edges of reality(ies), and it's "liquid" form being a projection dripping through the chasm of reality. But I guess, now it's just meaningless.

 

So. Now I free you from my negative IMHO, just hoping for your answer on some of my thesis.

[bonesiii]

[i'm going to reply out of order a bit to make my reasoning flow clearer, hopefully.]

 

TSO, it seems to me that overall the issue with your approach is that you're mistaking our willingness to follow the in-story evidence where it leads for a bias toward a particular style of explanation. Everything you're saying, I expect to see out of a few people, and yet it still disappoints me. You seem to think, for example, that fishers is arbitrarily trying to push the story toward tech explanations, but read what she actually said more closely (I figure it's sensible to use the firstpost of this topic as an example since this is where we're posting, but I understand you're not just talking about this per se):

 

Recently, the subject has come up of whether the GBs have abilities innately, or as a function of advanced technology. This has centered around instances in story where the GBs appear to have innate abilities, such as the insane GB's "dimension reach Kanohi turn-off", or the two GBs appearing invisible to the Matoran. Recent reveals seem to relate them to the Glatorian and Agori, however, who don't have powers.

We also know that the Great Beings have given implants to Glatorian and Agori, giving them enhanced abilities.

My theory is that the Great Beings did this for themselves, possibly to a greater extent. They invented protodermis, with the powers of Dimensional Gates and Concealment. I don't see why, with all the implant tech and their new high-powered substance, why they wouldn't have put two and two together, unless it was technologically impossible.

Now how can you honestly deny that this makes sense? Your argument, if you mean to be applying it to this, seems almost irrelevant. I understand where you're coming from, but ultimately it's making several bad assumptions IMO, and probably just creating needless stress in yourself (and possibly even creating needless arguing between fans -- why do you have to pit the one thing against the other?). This is not "trying to make everything technology", it's just "following the evidence" and pointing out that the theory that in this case technology may be involved makes sense.

 

You react against it because people have created the idea of Great Beings as entirely non-technological. But this is the classic mistake of putting too much emotional stock in your own speculations to try to answer a mystery in somebody else's story. Do not assume you know what something is when you don't -- that just sets you up for disappointment. However, ultimately the argument seems pointless to me. Again, technology might carry all these emotional connotations to you, but in reality all it means is using physics to make tools, instead of being lucky enough to have the abilities gifted to you by luck or whatever already. Bionicle has always about using your brain and physics to solve problems; that's the quintessential nature of Toa elements for example. It is not strange to expect a lot of Bionicle fans thus to naturally think this way.

 

And to expect the characters not to is unrealistic. Why would they not take advantage of available physics to achieve goals?

 

But that does not mean at all that all their powers should be technologically invented.

Did you see my first post here? I said:

 

If I'm reading this right, you're saying the GBs probably put technological implants in themselves too? I agree and have concluded that years ago.

However, I still suspect there's more to it.

 

But, my problem with your approach is this "should." To me, the integrity of story matters more than somebody's trying to force certain parts of the story to be something just because of their preferences. There's a place for that, but only if it makes in-story sense. Your "should" appears to be entirely disconnected from in-story logic. So to me that isn't really about "should". The GBs should be what they would be if they existed (and if the very different world they live in existed; I don't mean if they existed on Earth lol). And you do not necessarily know what that is, because they are still largely a mystery. Make sense?

 

Anyways, I just think that aside from the basic life enhancing technologies, maybe better versions of them, they probably only used technology to amplify their abilities. (However, "innate" is still very debatable; did they already have something innate and Annona just amplified or altered it? Or did they get Psionic powers from her because their different psychology was able to handle doing so?)

 

Basically this is just a completely predictable clash of the very human drive to understand, and the human drive to have the thrill of mystery. Nothing you''re saying is really surprising, but I wonder if you have really thought it through.

 

 

Actually, in recent years I've seen more of a trend toward not using technology to explain the GBs; it seems you've got it backwards actually. For example, when in 2006's flashback we saw them being invisible because they wished not to be seen, it used to be presumed this was switching off an awareness function in the Matoran due to their protodermic design (and I've already mentioned elsewhere this is the version I used, although other versions of it may exist in my retelling ). Lately some have begun to suggest it may instead be a Psionic ability not granted by technology at all, because of the reveal of their contact with Annona.

Basically, this thing you're fighting against seems to be more a straw man of your own perception than reality. Which I hope helps -- I mean no offense.

 

 

Greg also made up that awful

See, the problem here is that 1) again you're trying to prove a personal taste with a personal taste, and 2) it really seems like you WANT to dislike things, and haven't really given them a fair chance. If you don't want to enjoy something for what it is, fine, but I don't see the point. You're just creating needless annoyance in yourself apparently of your own invention.

 

And BTW, yes, cool science fiction ideas ARE cool. Why should people be made to feel ashamed for recognizing that? To me that comes across as anti-imagination and also a little anti-brain. LEGO is all about both. Yet, LEGO also likes the thrill of mystery. I guess I just don't understand why you have to pit these things against each other, instead of enjoying them all simultaneously. Why do it? (Unless you really do have a taste for this you just can't help.) Maybe if you tried honestly to change your perspective and give things a fair chance more, your issues would resolve themselves?

 

In the end, the premise is really very simple. We love Bionicle, and we love theorizing. It makes sense that the remaining mysteries would be where we theorize now.

 

 

bonesiii said

Here's the problem with your approach.

Oh, man, you're trying to get psychology on me.

Let's pretend you've managed to do that.

bonesiii said

You don't understand why other people like different things than you.
<…>
Here you are, lacking understanding, and that lack of understanding evidently is not making you happier, is it? It's causing annoyance to you.

First of all: I clearly understand that there're people with absolutely different interests.

Secondly, I do not lack understanding, and subsequently I am not annoyed with it.

 

First, let's assume for sake of argument this is all true. Have you never in life wanted to understand how something works? And upon understanding it, found benefit to that, possibly unexpectedly?

 

Second, you originally said that you were annoyed. Those were your words, not mine. My intent was to point out to you that your own reason is self-refuting, from an integrity of story perspective, a character-based story, that is, with consistent in-story logic, rather than random "I want this and just assume it makes sense somehow." That I think is along the lines of what Katuko is saying, and to an extent I agree (although there's also a place for the author knowing how something makes sense and never revealing it so readers can forever wonder ). You were apparently saying you want things that can't make sense even to the author, but this creates many possible problems like random rescues "just because" (like for example the Toa Hordika animations... sigh).

 

Also, suspension of disbelief works better if the reader can imagine that it COULD be real. (Not in our world per se but that there's logic behind everything.)

 

But I don't see how the contradiction is avoidable; if you want something that "can't be explained" -- then logically you DO lack understanding of it. Again, you said:

 

Why can't you make ideas about mythology and creatures or powers beyond any understanding?

I can make things beyond others' understanding, but I cannot make them beyond my own understanding (with a few exceptions we can't get into here -- plus just practical limitations like no, I can't tell you how to make a real protodermis molecule ). Not because of an inability on my part, but quite the opposite -- because from a very early age in my life I devoted myself to trying to understand everything. And I've always found that anything can be understood if you just try, at least in basic principle. (Which is then by definition not beyond any understanding.)

 

That is also a logical fallacy of an absolute negative. You can't prove something to be beyond any understanding, especially if you don't even try to understand it. All that would prove is that you didn't yet find understanding.

 

And this matters, too -- I find that whenever people choose not to at least be open to eventually trying to understand something (time allowing), bad things tend to happen. Ignoring physics can lead to fatal mistakes, or at least unnecessary suffering. I would not want to encourage such mistakes, because of the principle that "play is practice for real life" -- meaning fiction too and theorizing about fiction. Getting practice thinking in terms of how things work thus has practical real-world benefits, and assuming something can't be understood encourages mental laziness which can be dangerous. (Again, no offense.)

 

Now, I like the "heart-cry" approach. But I think it is being misdirected. There are ways to bring it into alignment with the desire to understand everything. One of the things I still lack understanding on is how to communicate how to do that. But it can be done and the best thing is probably just to rethink your own assumptions.

 

Quote

But what you're really saying is you don't want visions explained.

WHAT.
I'm sorry again and again -- I did not say anything like this.
What I was saying is that I do not want them being explained scientifically.

In my experience that is nothing but semantics. We have to be careful here though as this can tread on controversial real-world ground; it's not my desire to risk going there. But within what LEGO created fictionally, you can slap the label "scientifically" on something or not, but if it were real, it would have physics, regardless of what emotional connotation you apply to them. There's nothing wrong with those who enjoy physics theorizing on what they might be, or even with the story producers eventually revealing them if they so choose. Claiming there is accomplishes nothing but pitting people against each other IMO.

 

You're still saying you don't want them explained, unless you're saying you want your explanation to be canonized? If an explanation you deem "scientific" were used in canon, it would be explained, and you would wish it wasn't. If yours were used, hopefully you're humble enough to understand that someone else might not like it (that's how taste generally works ). So if you are to be fair, from this "taste-reigns" approach you would have to not want yours to be canonized either, so then the effect is it doesn't get explained.

 

Anyways, I doubt the canon will ever bother, although we certainly have clues toward it. It's a topic you might imagine my retelling touches on, given the title, but how it ends up of course is for the reader to discover. Again, what I resist is this idea that you should judge a story simply based on whether a part matches an expectation, without any regards for the foundations of why it ends up being what it is with in-story logic, emotion/psychology, etc.

 

 

 

And this is actually the thing I don't like here on BZP in last few years. Sometimes you're going too far in technology and science, as if forgetting Bionicle original unity of both technology and natural/unnatural powers.

This argument seems not to be connected to integrity of story; you're defining "too far" not based on what makes sense in-story, as far as I can tell. Also, true unity implies cooperation, not antagonism; not one against the other. It seems to me it's you who is trying, no offense, to disrupt a unity of those things, and create emotional connotations (or perpetuate them) about technology that seem to me not to be realistic. You seem to want to view technology as a trope, for example, but not other things (but everything can be viewed as a trope and nothing needs to be merely that). In real life, technology is, again, simply using physics to solve problems. That's it.

 

A true unity, thus, means that nature/unnatural (to use your characterization) still have logic and physics. Incidentally, technology simply builds upon nature. Pet peeve; when people act like technology is "not" nature. Also, notice you seemingly moved the goalpost by first talking about technology alone but accepting nature, but then putting science in general on the one side -- but science just means the study of how things work. That includes the "other side" of your equation. So the only distinction left is whether it's understood or not. BTW, if you choose not to understand how things work, you can do that for technology too lol.

 

Almost forgot: some time ago I wanted to share with you my vision/theory of energized protodermis, that likes to watch and play with these funny little creatures of nature, being the entity of High Consciousness/god/a Creator, something that lies between or at the edges of reality(ies), and it's "liquid" form being a projection dripping through the chasm of reality. But I guess, now it's just meaningless.

I don't see why. I think your reaction here is entirely of your own making. It's unfortunate, but all we can do is try to help you see the mistakes you made in why you're getting to the bad emotional reactions you're having. (Keep in mind though that BZP has rules about what we can and can't discuss here and there are gray areas.)

 

People often take way too much stock in emotional connotations and miss that the same emotions they get from one thing can come from another. Lemme see if I can put this clearly and within the rules...... well, say you assume that something is done by a small being from beyond a border, and you assume you can't understand how that being works, but enjoy the idea of the being doing something because of the psychology of it, etc. You made up the philosophy that you can't understand that being, and also the philosophy that you CAN understand entirely a being within the border. (This analogy can work just as I'm presenting it, but hopefully the wise can read between the lines. ) But in reality, you probably could understand as much about the being beyond the border as the one inside and there really are still mysteries, the very same mysteries generally, about the being inside the border. So if it turns out the being inside the border did something, you might feel emotionally displeased, but this displeasure comes entirely from your philosophy and missing what it really is. (And then you could have others who have a flipped philosophy.)

 

My philosophy is to see mystery around EVERY corner, so ultimately I have no emotional need for something to be within a border or beyond a border, and can enjoy them all equally. Just get rid of the logically fallacious assumption that you can't understand certain things, and have an open mind to it all, and it seems to me the problems resolve themselves. Notice that the very same meanings can be there, just different specifics.

 

I also like to think of doing things on a computer. People who aren't familiar with them often ask how to do something, and it's amazing how often the answer is "actually there's more than one way." Ultimately no particular way is necessarily wrong, though some might be better in different circumstances. Take visions for example. We could come up with many different explanations, and all are just as possible. You created the philosophy that pits one against the other; I don't do that. And all can be just as meaningful, albeit in different ways. You create the philosophy that something becomes magically meaningless (that, too, is the fallacy of absolute unproveable negatives, notice). Why do it? What good does that do?

Edited March 9, 2014 by bonesiii

[Azani]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't all Kanohi made from protodermis? If so, the properties of Kanohi which appear to be supernatural, or possibly gifted by Annona,(i.e., invisibility, telekinesis) are only properties imbued in protodermis, which is an entirely artificial substance. Is the theory, or part of it, that the insane great being was able to disable the powers of Kanohi because he or she could remove the power in question from that piece of protodermis, just as he or she could hypothetically remove the property of light-giving from a lightstone? It doesn't make sense that a being would be able to remove a specific power from the substance that they or their species created artificially, without using the same process as was used to give the mask it's power. A being wouldn't be able to naturally do that if the initial giving of the power had been carried out artificially.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Artakha's Nephew

[bonesiii]

which is an entirely artificial substance.

We should be careful in how we word that. Protodermis is confirmed to be natural; the GBs' version simply imitates the natural version. It's not accurate to call it "entirely" artificial.

 

But yes, all Kanohi are made of protodermis, but keep in mind "powers" exist in Bionicle without it, like Annona, so that really doesn't matter per se. (I have an explanation for that, but still debating with myself if I'll reveal it in the retelling or only hint at it.)

 

The rest of your post's wording kind of lost me. Could you clarify what you're asking or saying? Sorry for being apparently dense.

[fishers64]

@bones, TSO: Wait, my theory is being attacked? *is confused*

 

I wasn't trying to rain on anyone's "GBs are magic, not technology" parade. I was simply trying to propose a possibility that seems to have been missed previously in discussion of this subject, not the end all be all. Frankly, it is really possible that the technological explanation I mentioned for the GBs powers is complete bunk. I offered it up to this forum as a way to open my mind to evidence for and against this theory that I had previously missed. (Which I know, upon careful examination of my own mind, happens frequently.)

 

It is possible that the GBs have mystical powers, beyond all known sources of power. Known sources so far have included Annona (possibly), energized protodermis (definitely), and the artificial proto that the GBs constructed (definitely, but unsure as to the full extent). One of these sources could cause these powers, a combination of sources, or some unknown source. From my understanding, TSO, you prefer that unknown source. This is not wrong IMO, and I was not trying to rule that out by proposing my theory. Frankly, at the moment, TSO, you have what you want - the GBs power is yet undefined.

 

At this point, I do not have a preference for this theory being true or false. I'm a Bionicle fanfic writer, so eventually I may decide that I want this to be true or not, and incorporate this preference into my own writing, but so far I'm really detached. I'm testing the possibility, yes? If this theory/possibility is offensive to you, I might want to reconsider, but I doubt that you'll be reading my writing anyway.

 

Unfortunately, though, I do agree with bonesiii, at least on principle. It is my belief that people suffer so much on trying to avoid the possibility that something might be true. Then, when they are finally forced to accept the fact that it is true, they find that the avoidance of the truth was the most painful thing of all. (This is the basis of lots of clinical psychology. Apparently people want to avoid the possibility that they are feeling some emotion or other. Once they accept the truth that they are feeling it, and that it doesn't affect what actions they take in the world, they can move on with their lives.)

 

But really, living your life by preference is extremely limiting. One of my favorite authors loves to say that the number one reason that we don't get what we want is because we aren't open to the all the possibilities of the ways in which to get there. Not only do we prefer this outcome, we also prefer this method of getting there, and refuse to open our minds to other, more effective methods of action that would cause less pain, less strain, and might even produce a better outcome than we thought! If I merely follow the method I prefer, how do I know that I'm not wasting my time?

 

By extension, if I follow the theory I prefer, how do I know that I'm right? Does my preference make it right? Nope. Does my preference make it wrong? Nope.

 

Preference is independent of truth. (Popularity, by extension, is also independent of truth, being merely a group preference.)

 

I've heard that said using different language by many, many wise people over the years. I have tested this assertion many times. It is true.

 

However, I think the fear you are expressing, TSO, may be legitimate. This is a story after all, and it is possible that the Lego group might act according the preference of us technology-preferring theorists, given that TLG has to appeal to the masses to sell products, should they ever decide to continue this story. Yes?

 

But really? Does this one theory topic really matter that much? Odds are that LEGO is never going to even read this topic. I doubt that this topic is going to suddenly make TLG make all GB powers from implants. Someone could, because I posted this one theory topic, make a universe-imploding bomb too, or decide to eat a sandwich, or go crazy and kill everyone they know. But the odds of that were so infinitesimally low that I felt that posting this one theory topic was not going to unduly strain the fabric of the universe.

 

Peace?