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I think there should still be a slot for pre-mutation species, if for no other reason than to get an idea of the size of each character. For example; Matoran, Toa and Vortixx would all look quite different even if they all wound up as the same type of mutant. 

 

true, i'll keep that in mind, it might also allow for people to, should they choose, be plain old Mahri Matoran, and leave the mutation slots empty. o:

 

(the mutation list is also done, i think. i included all six barakki types and a couple other neat ones.)

 

also, thanks for this feedback, i know that's literally the whole point of this topic, but still, it's great to hear opinions and stuff. c:

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What are Mahri Matoran? Are they like Matoran with scuba gear flippers or gills?

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Okay, checking things over...

 

First off, a major issue: Where are the GM characters? Is this just a big brawl for whoever wants the... Big pile of rock at the bottom of the ocean?

 

Secondly, what's the point? It's nice that we have another RPG here, and I won't nail down too much as it's still in its planning form, but you probably shouldn't make a final draft until you have an idea as to what you would do.

 

Finally, you have to remember all elements won't work underwater. (i.e. Fire, Air, etc.) And using the element of water would be too OP.

 

 

Still, this has a lot of potential, and I'd love to see it carry out.

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In various answer Greg has given us, he states that both in real life and in the MU, fire technically can burn underwater, hence the reasoning behind not putting water on a grease fire. A quick Google search provides this quote;

 

 

Combustion needs oxygen to take place, if you provide an oxygen source by chemical or mechanical means, fire can burn underwater. A chemical reaction that gives up a lot of heat may stay burning for a little bit, but remember water has a high heat capacity and would cold the reaction quite fast.

 

Therefore, technically Fire does work underwater. Doesn't explain how Air works underwater, unless it's like controlling the currents or something.

 

Also, wouldn't water be super-overpowered in such an enviroment?

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Okay, checking things over...

 

First off, a major issue: Where are the GM characters? Is this just a big brawl for whoever wants the... Big pile of rock at the bottom of the ocean?

 

Secondly, what's the point? It's nice that we have another RPG here, and I won't nail down too much as it's still in its planning form, but you probably shouldn't make a final draft until you have an idea as to what you would do.

 

Finally, you have to remember all elements won't work underwater. (i.e. Fire, Air, etc.) And using the element of water would be too OP.

 

 

Still, this has a lot of potential, and I'd love to see it carry out.

1. I believe it was previously stated that it's still a WIP, and as such, not everything was specifically ironed out yet.

2. Please refer back to Point #1. Since it's already been established that this most likely isn't going to be the final draft of the RPG, it's still a good idea to post an idea even if it isn't quite finished yet, as discovering if it would potentially have a player base or not is always a wise idea before investing a ton of additional time in developing it. ;)

3. Since the Fire portion of this statement has already seemed to be covered by other people, I'll be the one person who'll tackle it from the other side.

In short, no, using the element of Water wouldn't actually be OP at all.

You see, elemental control is based on three individual factors; the user's Willpower/Concentration, the user's EE reserves, and the amount of Toa Power they possess. Think of it as a scale with three sides where elemental usage requires all three to be at a somewhat equal level of balance. Sure, being surrounded by the substane you have control over would require less EE to manipulate than if you had to create it yourself, but just because it's there doesn't mean that you would have more EE to work with than you normally would have since your EE reserves are determined by the amount of Toa Power you currently possess.

Since most RPGs disallow the usage of devices that work like the Nui Stone does, that amount is actually pretty consistant, so you'd only end up manipulating the same amount of Water that you normally could if your fight were to suddenly take place on a sandy beach instead.

In other words, while you could replenish your EE reserves more quickly than say, a Toa of Fire could, the ammount of Water you'd be able to manipulate would still be the same as any other Toa that was in a location more favored to them, and both your EE reserves and Willpower/Concentration would still need to be recharged at the same rate as before (with the Willpower/Concentration requiring actual rest to do so), which could put you in a very bad position if you attempted this during the middle of battle if you found yourself forced to fall back on your elemental attacks. So even though characters who could control Water would have a slight advantage when it came to the amount of EE they were expending per attack, they would still have to operate under the same rules as everyone else.

Edited by Timageness
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Water elemental powers underwater should be no more overpowered than air elemental powers in an atmosphere, and those never seem to be a problem. The setting basically switches the uses of water and air - while normally air users create winds, underwater the equivalent is water users creating currents. And while a water user could normally drown others, with sea creatures it would be air users doing the suffocation. So I don't see an issue with it, myself.

 

That said, I really like the idea. It's an interesting change of scenery and opens up the door for a lot of fascinating character ideas.

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Water elemental powers underwater should be no more overpowered than air elemental powers in an atmosphere, and those never seem to be a problem. The setting basically switches the uses of water and air - while normally air users create winds, underwater the equivalent is water users creating currents. And while a water user could normally drown others, with sea creatures it would be air users doing the suffocation. So I don't see an issue with it, myself.

 

That said, I really like the idea. It's an interesting change of scenery and opens up the door for a lot of fascinating character ideas.

Agreed, having air Toa in an atmosphere of air never seems to be a problem, nor having earth or stone Toa around and their elements are pretty much everywhere as well. No difference between that and having a water Toa underwater

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Bionicle seems to ignore little issues like water pressure and so on, so I agree that using the element of water in an underwater setting probably wouldn't be particularly overpowered. 

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Bionicle seems to ignore little issues like water pressure and so on, so I agree that using the element of water in an underwater setting probably wouldn't be particularly overpowered.

 

Perhaps Matoranoids/Agoronoids can withstand higher air/water pressure, but if someone were to increase that pressure...

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Who can suck the water out of your lungs and let you drown like in BIONIFIGHT.

 

See my point?

 

I'm just going to sit here and wait until someone's head is crushed by water before saying "I told you so."

 

Just as a Toa of Air might suffocate you by sucking the air from your lungs, or squash someone's head by increasing air pressure?

 

I still contend that it's not really an issue. Things like that are either nothing more overpowered than normal, as Toa of Air could normally do the exact same thing on land, or if they do somehow end up being really different and severe, easily handwaved by something like 'oh, but the Pit mutagen adapted them to be able to withstand it.'

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Swing a bag filled with air around.

 

Then do the same thing with a bag full of water.

 

 

Do you see the difference here?

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Now try swinging a bag of water around - while you're underwater. 

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The fact that you can't even move your arms as fast underwater makes that a bad comparison.

 

The point is that water has a lot more mass than air does. It's going to hurt a lot more.

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The fact that you can't even move your arms as fast underwater makes that a bad comparison.

 

No, I think that makes for an extremely good comparison. Swinging air around in air is easy, because of the nature of air. Swinging water around underwater is difficult, due to the nature of water. 

 

Kind of cancels out the issue of the added mass in your analogy. 

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...

 

Nato that isn't even remotely how mass works.

 

Swinging a bag of water around is difficult, because of water resistance. Water does not have water resistance to itself. Air is less potent because it has little mass, little density, and everyone is adjusted to the atmospheric pressure. Underwater? Water has enough density and mass that you could increase pressure to that point that people just pop. Or deliver blunt force trauma. Or slam people against the seabed. Or just use currents to pull people so deep that the pressure just kills them.

 

A Le-Toa in atmosphere is less potent because, due to air's density and mass, you need a lot of it with a lot of energy to do something. Water, which is already a potent element on land, being used underwater?

How is there even a case for that not being overpowered?

Speaking as a judge, this is one of the first things I would ask any GM of an underwater RPG that allowed Toa, and it's not a question I would let go of until I was given a satisfactory answer on how that GM intends to avoid overpowered Water Elementals.

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*sighs*

 

You people really don't know the difference between a joke and a serious statement, do you?

 

And considering that some elements such as gravity and lightning are already nerfed in every single game I've ever played on this forum, I don't see why a GM couldn't just enforce some simple ground rules for the use of water in an underwater setting. 

 

You're making this out to be a much bigger issue than it really is. 

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It's hard to tell when something is a joke when you use it to try and refute another person's argument using it.

 

It's a big deal because so far almost nobody has brought up the fact that a Water Elemental is actually overpowered in this setting. There was no talk of nerfing it.

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It's hard to tell when something is a joke when you use it to try and refute another person's argument using it.

 

Sorry. I assumed that it was obvious, considering how blatantly stupid my statement was. 

 

I will refrain from trying to be funny in future, since I'm apparently appalling at it. 

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Well the natural density of the two elements has a bit to do with that to be sure. Though isn't there a rule while not being stated in the RPGs that the more of an element a Toa has access to the less Elemental energy they need to use to manipulate it. Thus as a result the more of that element they can then manipulate before requiring time to recharge. In an Air filled environment that naturally gives Toa of such element a slight advantage over the other elements. I don't know but I suppose a Le-Toa could in theory increase or decrease the density of said air around them or their opponent going as far as to suck the air right out of their lungs. Or whatever the equivalent to lungs is.

 

Anyway while air is indeed less dense naturally than water (Duh there is air in water) you would indeed think that a Ga-Toa or related user could have an increased threat level because water is naturally more dangerous to air. However I would not think that the amount of water an underwater user can manipulate would be any different than that of an Air user above water or an Earth user who is well below the soil. If this was an underground RPG would you have to nerf Earth and Stone Elements?

 

Now on to the aspect of Fire and Air while under water... also Earth could be questioned as well.  In the story don't they have air pellet guns or something to that effect? Not to mention there is actually air in water. well air in the form of oxygen or its equivalent. Underwater creatures don't actually breath water but rather have adapted breathing system(gills) to extract that air from the water. So while limited to a major extent a Le-Toa or alike could still function under water. Also there are volcanos that spill their hot fiery goodness while under water. They can also do this for quite some time as long as there is fuel for said fire. While seemingly illogical what with the whole water used to put out fires deal. Still somehow it works and best not to breath too much into why without hurting our brains.

 

As for Earth what could be said about that? Well while I still am not entirely sure what is defined as "Earth" I would think Soil or Dirt could be a better term that leads to the question of if Mud falls under this, as mud is about all you are going to get while underwater. With the other Elements they actually have options for underwater applications. Even Stone being solid would not be effected by the water element. However Earth quickly becomes Mud and would be the weakest of the elements I think for underwater interactions.

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Well the natural density of the two elements has a bit to do with that to be sure. Though isn't there a rule while not being stated in the RPGs that the more of an element a Toa has access to the less Elemental energy they need to use to manipulate it.

 

It's more the fact that the character no longer needs to spend a bunch of EE making their element out of thin air. In addition, they have a much easier time finding examples of said element to absorb and recharge their energy.

 

 

Anyway while air is indeed less dense naturally than water (Duh there is air in water) you would indeed think that a Ga-Toa or related user could have an increased threat level because water is naturally more dangerous to air. However I would not think that the amount of water an underwater user can manipulate would be any different than that of an Air user above water or an Earth user who is well below the soil. If this was an underground RPG would you have to nerf Earth and Stone Elements?

 

Air works because you don't do as much damage with it as with other elements. That nerf evens out the buff of having said element everywhere. In this case that low damage element has been replaced with the medium damage element of Water.

 

The same can be said for the underground example. Nerfing Stone and Earth would not be a bad idea.

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In my opinion, Water would be OP here, in any setting. Whether to null any attack coming at you, or to increase the pressure around an opponent until they were a tiny ball of metal, it's just too much for this type of a game.

 

Also, there should be some kind of an end goal. Perhaps they are part of an experiment they don't know about, or there is an invading enemy force, something to keep people moving.

 

 

Honestly, I suggest(and you can pick and pull anything you want from my idea):

 

The Pit has been loaded with thousands of prisoners and has been one of the most secure prisons for a long time, until it breaks. All the inhabitants are mutated, same idea, except, well... There's a way to get cured, although it's unknown exactly what at this point, and Is causing a mad scramble for the first few beings to reach it. (who may or may not ever get there.)

 

They are all under the watch of a small handful of beings who are of a species long gone, who have mutated to grotesque forms, but tower over anything and everything. They have their own reasons for letting the prisoners not get mauled by them, perhaps there is no cure, or maybe they already have it. Or maybe this is all simply a testing project, one to see all these prisoners for the toughest ones, to use for their own sinister schemes.

 

And finally, there are small alliances within each area, all of them killing ruthlessly for this supposed power.

 

 

But that's just my take, and you can use it however you want.

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I find it funny that the only time people really talk on here, it's about an argument. Listen, Water Toa have been underwater before [Mahri Hahli], and it was story canon. Hahli was 'in her element,' but still had trouble fighting the Barraki at one point. Now I'm aware that this is not like real Bionicle canon, but still, you guys. This is a little silly to be arguing over. Make a choice and stick with it. It's either usable, or it's not. This doesn't have to be an argument.

...I'm not trying to sound rude or anything. Just giving my input. I probably won't post again during this.

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Wouldn't Pit Mutagen have the additional side effect of increasing a character's ability to withstand that water pressure though, considering that the whole point of it even existing is to adapt a being's body so that they can live down there in the first place? I mean, if we look at the Barraki's mutations for a moment as an example (since the sets released have been stated previously to have not been their original forms), they all gained qualities naturally found in pre-existing sea-life, creatures that should be noted to have naturally evolved in order to survive in that specific environment with the currents constantly changing and whatnot as well. Obviously this probably wouldn't affect the Matoran at all since they usually steered clear of it, but it would explain how any of the Six Warlords were able to survive a few rounds with Hahli Mahri (unless she decided to not use her powers against them throughout the entirety of the 2007 storyline, of course, but I kind of doubt that).

And to continue the Air/Water comparison, Air Elementals could also suck people up into cyclones and fling them wherever or just suffocate a bunch of people inside of a vacuum, but that doesn't seem to be too much of an issue due to the standard amount of nerfing that pretty much every power has to go through before a game can actually become playable. Additionally toning down an ability just because it can be used in conjunction with the environment seems a tad bit unnecessary as well, considering that it would still be just as an effective method of killing someone as, say, using the wind to blow them into a pit full of spikes.

Or off of a cliff.

Or into a volcano.

The problem in these situations isn't the power in question, it's that said unfortunate character on the receiving end put themselves in a position of which they couldn't escape, hence their untimely demise. Limiting something for everyone because one person got themselves killed, soley because they lacked the foresight that everybody else playing the game seemed to have, is completely unfair.

Edit: Kapura'd on the Hahli part by Urchin.

Edited by Timageness
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I think you mistake debate for argument.

Debate, argument, poh-tae-toe, pah-tah-tah, same difference.

 

But, yeah, it makes sense that water elementals would be very OP. The only reason Hahli couldn't, like, crush all the Barraki was because she was a). bound to the Toa Code, and b). PLOT NECESSITY!

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I think you mistake debate for argument.

Debate, argument, poh-tae-toe, pah-tah-tah, same difference.

 

But, yeah, it makes sense that water elementals would be very OP. The only reason Hahli couldn't, like, crush all the Barraki was because she was a). bound to the Toa Code, and b). PLOT NECESSITY!

 

He has a point there. The Toa Code whatever it is may have prevented her from overpowering them and via the story ending it before it even had a chance to begin. I can really see no limitation here though. The Toa's ability or desire to follow a certain code is reliant on their player and not story plot. While this could mean that a Ga-Toa or alike could create massive underwater currents and even underwater whirlpools that really isn't any different than what Timageness stated about Le-Toa. They could just as easily whip up a massive wind storm and even suck the air out of an area suffocating all within.

 

Come to think of it due to the density of water over air, Air users have an advantage here in that regard. See with the lighter density objects can be manipulated with less resistance. So an object being thrown by a Le-Toa thought the air can travel faster and with more destructive power than anything a Ga-Toa could do while underwater. On the plus side while under water Sound based Toa get a boost to their elemental power as well. What with the increase in distance sound travels underwater. Also the pressure wave can be more destructive with the added density of the water.

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