The Official RPG Planning Topic

[Voltex]

If you take a proper look at those RPGs, you would notice that they both dropped the tournament part about halfway through.

 

Which is fine, since we state nothing about winning the tournament being the ultimate end goal. Technically, Bionifight Infinite could go on forever if the players were to be active for long enough. 

[NorikSigma]

Fight fight Bionifight!

 

I assume the RP elements in this game will be stronger than the original Bionifights?

[IcarusBen]

Heesh. First, it was tanks that overshadowed us, now it's a fighting tournament. 

 

Why do I have a bad feeling in my gut?

 

Well, I did just eat Mexican food...

[Not Quite Dead]

You got several suggestions and comments. Act on them instead of asking why five posts were made that weren't about you.

 

That's what I'm doing atleast.

[Nato G]

It's been nearly three days, hasn't it, and you've addressed all of the questions and concerns that people have raised. 

 

Does that mean Tanks is ready to be put up for judging? 

[NorikSigma]

Remember to switch the Volitak and Huna.

[IcarusBen]

We've been trying (hence my revision) but it's kinda disheartening when all this attention is focused on an RPG that got released like, what, a few hours later? 

 

I guess that's the problem when one guy is a Danish fish and the other is 14. You're bound to be a little irked by competition. 

[Silvan Haven]

Fight fight Bionifight!

 

I assume the RP elements in this game will be stronger than the original Bionifights?

 

Its in the RPG Forum. It kind of needs to be an actual RPG.

[NorikSigma]

True, didn't think about that.

[Nato G]

Yeah... the tournament thing just sounds like an endless series of fight scenes. You can only pit the same handful of characters agaisnt each other so many times before things start getting stale.

 

I agree that it definitely needs some more story elements to make it a proper RPG.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Roman Torchwick

[Voltex]

Yeah... the tournament thing just sounds like an endless series of fight scenes. You can only pit the same handful of characters agaisnt each other so many times before things start getting stale.

 

I agree that it definitely needs some more story elements to make it a proper RPG.

As we have stated, players are free to explore; if they would rather do that then fight,they may choose to eliminate themselves for the round and pursue the story portion of the RPG instead.

[Nato G]

As we have stated, players are free to explore; if they would rather do that then fight,they may choose to eliminate themselves for the round and pursue the story portion of the RPG instead.

 

 

So... let me get this straight.

 

The game is primarily a tournament game, with some secondary story elements. And the only way to really engage with those story elements is to deliberately lose at the tournament? And as soon as the next round of the tournament starts everyone is ripped away from whatever they might have been doing and dumped back into the arena whether they like it or not? 

 

That's going to get really annoying really quickly.

 

Perhaps consider changing it so that the rounds are announced ahead of time via loudspeakers of something, and players can choose for themselves whether or not they want to participate. I think that would be a little fairer on the players. 

[Not Quite Dead]

Or some kind of open world setting.

 

Like fate/bionicle crossover... Hmm

[Chro]

It's Bionifight, not Bionexplore.

 

The concept here was to take Bionifight - already an RPG, although one centered entirely on combat without any exploration and without a focus on character interaction - and fill in those missing holes, so to speak. That doesn't mean we want the others to overtake the importance of the combat; this is intended to be a fun and exciting experience as far as battle is concerned (again, take a look at the old Bionifight games) which now also has an overarching story (which, of course, isn't all revealed right off the bat, because the players will need to interact and explore to discover it).

 

Within the story of the game, it is ostensibly a fighting tournament, which means that you're there to fight. Can you explore? Absolutely. Will the Organizers allow you to explore when it's time to fight? No, they want you in the arena, that's why they brought you here.

 

We will consider what you've suggested but let it be known that we're probably sticking to our guns here.

 

(Also, this is a Bionicle game, sorry to say that Greivous and Booker won't get to fight. By saying "universes" we wanted to offer a viable explanation for why every character isn't from the same plane of existence, parallel reality, what have you. Picture the difference between Melding and Kingdom, for example.)

Edited January 15, 2015 by Chro

[Nato G]

 

 

 The concept here was to take Bionifight - already an RPG, although one centered entirely on combat without any exploration and without a focus on character interaction - and fill in those missing holes, so to speak.  

 

I haven't been on the RPG forum for all that long, but from what I've seen, the majority of players like to take the time to focus on their exploration, world-building and character interaction/development, which this seems to be lacking in favour of lots and lots of seemingly-pointless fighting.

 

The problem here being that the characters who do well in the tournaments will spend all of their time fighting, and therefore won't have much chance for characterisation or development, leaving them two-dimensional and boring, meaning other players and readers won't really be able to sympathise with them.

 

The other issue is still the fact that every week all of the characters are going to be torn away from whatever stuff they were doing in order to fight again. Seems kind of unfair, particularly if they were in the middle of something. 

 

 

 

 We will consider what you've suggested but let it be known that we're probably sticking to our guns here. 

 

I can't help but feel that this has been the default response from you guys to a lot of the criticism/suggestions being offered here: "It worked fine in the past on the other forum, so we see no need to change it here." But I think you'll find that the expectations for what constitutes a good RPG are a little different here to what you guys seem to be used to.

 

I could be wrong; maybe this is just my personal opinion and everyone else will completely disagree with me, but I love a good storyline. Heroes I can root for, interesting villains and a setting I can really engage with. I'm just not seeing any of that here. Bionifight just seems like an excuse to make a bunch of people fight each other over and over again with no real plot or purpose, which sounds fun at first, but I suspect will grow rather tedious after the first few weeks. 

[BrickPharaoh]

Hey peeps! I'm not entirely sure I'll be able to play in these games as such but I was thinking maybe if anyone wants a picture representation of their character then I might be able to MOC one for them in LDD! Just PM me with the character description and I'll gladly build it for you. I will be using a standard skeleton-type build that will accommodate whatever weapons/armor you want to have on your character. This is done for simplicity, but if you prefer a more unique take on your character then I can also give that a shot. 

 

I hope the hosts are okay with this.

 

 

Or some kind of open world setting.

Like fate/bionicle crossover... Hmm

Fate is great XD

 

A bit off-topic, but I felt the urge to do that

Edited January 15, 2015 by Mohamed Marei

[Voltex]

 

 The concept here was to take Bionifight - already an RPG, although one centered entirely on combat without any exploration and without a focus on character interaction - and fill in those missing holes, so to speak. 

 

I haven't been on the RPG forum for all that long, but from what I've seen, the majority of players like to take the time to focus on their exploration, world-building and character interaction/development, which this seems to be lacking in favour of lots and lots of seemingly-pointless fighting.

 

I'm open to suggestions regarding how to make the tournament seem more meaningful - this was what we decided would work without breaking the game or the spirit of Bionifight as a series.

 

The problem here being that the characters who do well in the tournaments will spend all of their time fighting, and therefore won't have much chance for characterisation or development, leaving them two-dimensional and boring, meaning other players and readers won't really be able to sympathise with them.

 

The other issue is still the fact that every week all of the characters are going to be torn away from whatever stuff they were doing in order to fight again. Seems kind of unfair, particularly if they were in the middle of something. 

 

We have already declared what will happen - therefore, the players will know what is coming at the end of each week. If they find themselves in the middle of a quest and it's Friday, they can always find a way to leave themselves a marker so that they might return. That said, we also considered having a two week cycle; for the first week it would be an arena match (although KOd players could still explore and do whatever), while the second week would be dedicated to the story and exploration in line with a standard RPG here. I'd be interested to know if you feel that would work better.

 

 We will consider what you've suggested but let it be known that we're probably sticking to our guns here.

 

I can't help but feel that this has been the default response from you guys to a lot of the criticism/suggestions being offered here: "It worked fine in the past on the other forum, so we see no need to change it here." But I think you'll find that the expectations for what constitutes a good RPG are a little different here to what you guys seem to be used to.

 

We say that because many of your complaints so far have been with regards to features that worked just fine for Bionifight before; because of that, we have no reason to believe that the Bionifight setup will suddenly cease to work. As far as what constitutes a good RPG... I am not used to declaring anything to be a good RPG. The only RPGs I ever maintained a long-term interest in were run by Parugi.

 

The goal here is not to just host an RPG - it is to host a Bionifight RPG. That means carrying over a series from the Games&Trivia forum into the RPG forum. It means that this RPG will be a little different from the rest - that is intentional. I do not want Bionifight to lose its charm or its style in order to fit in. Instead, I would prefer to push the boundaries of what the RPG forum is perhaps willing to accept, and show that it can work out just fine with the right methods and dedication.

 

I could be wrong; maybe this is just my personal opinion and everyone else will completely disagree with me, but I love a good storyline. Heroes I can root for, interesting villains and a setting I can really engage with. I'm just not seeing any of that here. Bionifight just seems like an excuse to make a bunch of people fight each other over and over again with no real plot or purpose, which sounds fun at first, but I suspect will grow rather tedious after the first few weeks. 

 

Much of the plot's beginnings will have to be found by the players. Once it gets rolling it will be hard to stop, but we also want to give players the option of playing just to experience what they are used to from Bionifight - which is, essentially, the endless battles. The setting is the same way; the more the players explore, the more they shall discover what there is to see and experience. If you have any specific suggestions that can help us to improve, I am all ears.

 

Comments again in blue (unless coding messes up and I don't notice)

[Toa Levacius Zehvor]

Another morning, another "not enough time to post". Quick comments:

 

Bionifight:

My headache and general tiredness keep me from giving Bionifight a proper go-over. However I feel the need to tell you guys that a Tournament RPG has yet to work in this forum

 

I'm going to put a quick "inb4 Tournament of Shadows" because that's way before most of our times, including myself. Heck, if I remember by BZP history, I think TPTI was a newbie back then. That same rule also applies to Day Run and the like; a very, very different world on the forum.

 

That being said, while Bionifight looks like an interesting concept, drop the heck out of that HP system. Make the fights run naturally. If they run too long, and the players can't come to a decision, the staff can intervene and decide the winner; if a player disappears, the active one takes the win. No HP, this is a TBRPG; it should flow like a narrative story, without any numerical breaks.

 

I'd also raise the number of abilities to three, and cause certain abilities to be worth more. For instance, elemental powers have far greater versatility than a weapon, and something like psionics (telepathy+telekinesis+mental blasts+mind control+mental shields+illusions) is worth even more than a normal elemental power. This is especially true if you include weaponry.

 

<EDIT>: Oh, and I forgot to add, players will never just find the story. There's a reason nearly every story begins with an event to kick it off, and the staff need to do that kicking. A lot of kicking.

 

Asylum:

The RPG's getting overshadowed because you need to put it in the Judging Topic. Sorry for lack of the review.

 

Tanks:

Judging Topic, sheesh. Again, should really review, but time is currently a scarce resource.

 

-Toa Levacius Zehvor

Edited January 15, 2015 by Toa Levacius Zehvor

[Toa of Dancing]

My headache and general tiredness keep me from giving Bionifight a proper go-over. However I feel the need to tell you guys that a Tournament RPG has yet to work in this forum

I beg to differ, sir. Tournament of Shadows, Night Ride, Day Run . . . just ask Parugi. They have definitely worked, though admittedly usually eventually go into another plot that diverts from the tournament. Still.

 

And after actually reading the rest of the topic, again I say yes, they divert. But still, the tournament portions of each ran great for a fair amount of time. And why can't a story evolve? Those were all extremely successful RPGs.

 

Also, now I feel like an old fart on this forum. ToS was before you guys' times? Dang. Also, no, TPtI was already well established at that point. He was basically my mentor in RPing, just general "you idiot what are you doing" except more nicely worded because he's a great guy. And now I'm waxing nostalgic and going off topic, so . . .

 

Yeah, tournament RPGs can work great, however, I do think you guys should be a bit more accepting of criticism and at least consider changing things. I disagree that HP is an absolute no, but only if you give an in-story, legitimate reason for it. Generally free-flow combat works best, but I can see that as working decently if done perfectly.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Toa of Dancing

[JiMing]

From what I understand, the definition of a fantastic RPG is supposed to be a grand space opera with an endless world filled to the brim with heroes, villains, and all the in-betweeners who come together and create an epic and serious tale filled with drama, brutal action, realism up the wazoo, some romance, and a whole lotta exploring the nature of the mind and morality.

 

Now, there's nothing inherently wrong with this model. But when it's suggested that is the ONLY viable model for an RPG to be successful, I don't buy it. See, I myself play RPGs for one big reason: to have fun. If I don't always enjoy writing in those kind of RPGs, does that mean I'm not a true RPer?

 

Silvan Haven's comment writing off Bionifight Infinity as 'not a real RPG' honestly comes off as a bit mean-spirited and elitist. Like I said, I can see the merits of a space opera, but so too can I see the merits of just being able to punch the stuffing out of someone else without suffering the risk of death or serious injuries. There's a reason I played three Bionifight games in a row, they're fun. They didn't make sense all the time and they weren't serious business, they were just fun.

 

It looks to me Voltex and his staff (who are all great people and super smart) have already tried to make concessions to appeal to Bionifight's previous players and the traditional RP crowd. And yet some parts of the latter still seem to want Bionifight to give up its style and tone for yet another grand space opera of adventure. Which honestly comes off as kinda closed minded.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Toru Acura: The Saboteur

[Toa of Dancing]

The thing is, if it's an RPG, it needs to be an RPG. If it's a game, then it needs to stay where games are. It's harsh, I know, and I have enjoyed Bionifights way long ago, but this is the forum for story- and character-driven ideas. So yes, a tournament can work fantastically, but it's unlikely to work well if the rules of the game are so limiting. Yes, fighting in a tournament can be the main focus, but it appears to most of us that something needs to change for this to be a great RPG. Be it the real life time constraints (even changing it to two weeks would work wonders IMO), the "you have to participate" dogma, or something else. Past Bionifights have been predominantly short, fun posts (from my experience and what I've seen, of course) with little to no substance, and I don't think a game on this side of the forum can thrive for more than a short amount of time running that way.

 

This topic is for suggestions and helping people get their RPG's working well. Just keep that in mind.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Toa of Dancing

[IcarusBen]

The reason we haven't put "The Asylum" in the judging topic is because we want to get everything ironed out first. The only thing we're (at least, I'm not) open to is putting the contents of the PDF inside the RPG post. It'd make the whole thing too long, IMHO.

[Ghidora131]

Icarusben is right, we shouldn't expand the whole thing out. We don't want filler, we want an RPG. Also Icarusben, you should edit the post to include powers and attributes of those playing as Skakdi or Vortixx. After that, we should get it posted.

[Voltex]

That being said, while Bionifight looks like an interesting concept, drop the heck out of that HP system. Make the fights run naturally. If they run too long, and the players can't come to a decision, the staff can intervene and decide the winner; if a player disappears, the active one takes the win. No HP, this is a TBRPG; it should flow like a narrative story, without any numerical breaks.

 

I'd also raise the number of abilities to three, and cause certain abilities to be worth more. For instance, elemental powers have far greater versatility than a weapon, and something like psionics (telepathy+telekinesis+mental blasts+mind control+mental shields+illusions) is worth even more than a normal elemental power. This is especially true if you include weaponry.

 

<EDIT>: Oh, and I forgot to add, players will never just find the story. There's a reason nearly every story begins with an event to kick it off, and the staff need to do that kicking. A lot of kicking.

 

The HP can certainly be removed; you're right in that it will allow for more free-flow combat to occur, and the HP system was something originally implemented to help separate the series from RPGs - I can modify that, although we still need some way to quantify exactly what is grounds for a KO (outside of like, stabbing someone in the face).

 

As far as raising the number of abilities to three - that is something I can discuss with Blade and Chro. Part of Bionifight has always been the extremely creative weapons that players come up with; weapons that, sometimes, are essentially powers in their own right. But I do understand where you're coming from.

 

As for finding the story - consider the fact that every character has been ripped out of their own dimension without consent. Would that not make anyone at least curious, if not outright furious? Again, I do see where you're coming from, but I would expect anyone ripped out of their home instantaneously to want answers.

 

Yeah, tournament RPGs can work great, however, I do think you guys should be a bit more accepting of criticism and at least consider changing things. I disagree that HP is an absolute no, but only if you give an in-story, legitimate reason for it. Generally free-flow combat works best, but I can see that as working decently if done perfectly.

 

There isn't necessary a reason that HP would be absolutely necessary; the HP system is merely the easiest way for all parties (hosts and players) to understand exactly what can cause a KO. If there's a better alternate solution I will happily listen, but I haven't found one yet myself and I've been looking for awhile.

 

The thing is, if it's an RPG, it needs to be an RPG. If it's a game, then it needs to stay where games are. It's harsh, I know, and I have enjoyed Bionifights way long ago, but this is the forum for story- and character-driven ideas. So yes, a tournament can work fantastically, but it's unlikely to work well if the rules of the game are so limiting. Yes, fighting in a tournament can be the main focus, but it appears to most of us that something needs to change for this to be a great RPG. Be it the real life time constraints (even changing it to two weeks would work wonders IMO), the "you have to participate" dogma, or something else. Past Bionifights have been predominantly short, fun posts (from my experience and what I've seen, of course) with little to no substance, and I don't think a game on this side of the forum can thrive for more than a short amount of time running that way.

 

This topic is for suggestions and helping people get their RPG's working well. Just keep that in mind.

 

First off, I would not call the members that have commented so far "most of us". The comments I've received on my blog and outside of BZPower have been overwhelmingly positive. I do also understand the point of this topic, however, and it is why I am open to critique. However, if we are going to receive complaints about "fix this, and fix that!" but not any suggestions on how to actually approach the issues that people see, then I am at a loss as to how we should proceed. I also refuse to change Bionifight so much that it ceases to become Bionifight.

 

You have been out of Bionifight for awhile, and were not around for either of the "Ultimate" games. There were several instances in both where myself or one of the players had to step in and remind everyone that they were not playing an RPG; Bionifight, even as a mere "game", has grown to a point where the characters of the players are striking up friendships, alliances, and finding rivals regardless. Despite its place in the G&T forum, the players of Bionifight have been developing their own characters and stories for a long time now - but in G&T, that is not allowed. The days where Bionifight was just short, fun posts are, for the most part, gone - it takes a little more investment now.

 

I think you're approaching the RPG from the wrong angle, and perhaps I should add onto the introduction to clarify it. This RPG is about a cast of characters that have been ripped away from their lives with no say in the matter, and without any indication of whether they'll even begin to return. I would say that the focus of the story is not necessarily winning the tournament - it is finding a way back home. 

 

I will make the changes necessary to make that more obvious - and I do agree that a two week cycle would work best. Now I ask, however - do you believe it should be a two week arena battle each cycle, or a one week battle and then one week just for story?

[IcarusBen]

We're not including Skakdi or Vortixx, remember? Hence the exchange just under the PDF link.

[Ghidora131]

The exchange of dialogue doesn't alter the fact that in one point it says some can be, and In an earlier one it says no one can.

[shadow pridak money gang]

As someone who was involved in the start of the first Ultimate Bionifight, as well as its predecessor, and is a semi-G&T regular, I still just feel like - if you don't want to tweak it so much that "Bionifight is no longer Bionifight" - it would be a tighter fit in G&T than it would here. It's not like that forum has never seen any high-concept or story-driven ideas before - , Voltex, I've been a part of several that you put together. I just think that this game would inevitably work out much better there than it would in RPG, and would probably accumulate more interest to boot.

 

-Tyler

[Shadowhawk]

Concerning Bionifight... I personally, probably won't have time to play it. But I do heartily support it, and think it'll work out great. I was a fairly regular player back when the 'Ultimate' and 'Drift Force' editions of the game were running in G&T, and I know, first-hand, that it worked. And worked well.

There is no clear-cut formula for a 'perfect' or 'successful' RPG; ergo, it's impossible to say that it 'won't work because of' this, that, or whatever doesn't fit one's personal philosophy. If you haven't seen it in action, how do you know? Or how can you even make an educated guess, if what's being proposed is something that's never been done before, ever? You can talk all you want, but when it really gets down to the nitty-gritty, sometimes it's the things that seem ridiculous in theory, that actually work the best. Think back to WWII, when the Nazi forces absolutely threw the established 'rules' of warfare down the drain and steamrollered much of Europe via unorthodox 'lightning war'. Things like that.

In the end, just like in a free trade economy, it's the RPG forum playerbase (i.e. the consumer) that eventually decides what lives and dies. No matter what the RPG is, or how atypical it is, if the people like it, it survives and thrives. And who's to say what the playerbase likes? Does any one of us represent the playerbase? I think not.

But I would (tentatively) recommend that the rules-heavy HP system be dropped. Such a thing worked great in G&T, but battles do tend to function somewhat differently in the RPG format.

E: Ninja'd by Tyler. He does make a really good point. But I'm still going to post this; feedback is always great.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Shadowhawk

[Toa of Dancing]

By "most of us," I meant the experienced RPers posting in this topic who aren't previously attached (at least for a long time) to Bionifight. If the people in this topic say probably not, the judges are definitely likely to echo the same sentiments (especially as some of the pople here are judges).

 

I definitely understand that I haven't been involved in it in years, and I imagine it has notably changed. If you give it life, story, a reason to be an RPG and not a game, I'll be happy to see it. As it is, though, it seems like a skeleton. I'd like top see you flesh it out as you've stated, adding a reason and an explanation. However, what you've just said is contradictory to what has already been said in this topic. If it is about finding a way out, then don't say it's about fighting. Keep to one side of the argument.

 

The two week cycle really depends upon what the RPG is actually focused. If you want to focus on the tournament, make it two week fight cycles, otherwise a week on a week off. Or do two weeks on and a week off. Real time in an RPG gets dicey.

 

Overall, I've got to echo Tyler's sentiment. Unless this becomes story-driven, then I think it works far better as a gane. If you don't ant to change, don't, and let it thrive in G&T. =3

 

Shadowhawk, this topic represents part of the RPG forum playerbase. Not all or even most for sure, but it's not one person's philosophy, it's multiple people saying we think this would work better with some fleshing out and/or a few changes.

[(Daedalus)]

My suggestion for Bionifight? A fight every other week. That way players can spend more time with the story without having to get themselves knocked out.

 

And I can personally attest to the RPGness of Bionifight. I played the tail end of Bionifight: Ultimate, and most of the players had to actively try not to make their characters, well, characters. At least, that's how it felt to me. I can definitely see this working.

[Shadowhawk]

Shadowhawk, this topic represents part of the RPG forum playerbase. Not all or even most for sure, but it's not one person's philosophy, it's multiple people saying we think this would work better with some fleshing out and/or a few changes.

I acknowledge that I perhaps overreacted defensively (I have a tendency to do that), and apologize for any hurt caused.

[JiMing]

I don't get why story and tournament battling is mutually exclusive though. Like, really, from what I've seen in the proposal, the players who want to focus on the fighting can make fighting their main focus, those who want to focus on story can make story their main focus.

 

But nope, it must be story-driven and story-driven only. I'm saying this now, I feel the players posting and the ones who demand space opera after space opera are what hold me back from joining more RPGs. It worked well in G&T, yes, but what's wrong with testing the waters in a different environment? Experimentation is a thing you know...

Edited January 15, 2015 by Toru Acura: The Saboteur

[Voltex]

As someone who was involved in the start of the first Ultimate Bionifight, as well as its predecessor, and is a semi-G&T regular, I still just feel like - if you don't want to tweak it so much that "Bionifight is no longer Bionifight" - it would be a tighter fit in G&T than it would here. It's not like that forum has never seen any high-concept or story-driven ideas before - ######, Voltex, I've been a part of several that you put together. I just think that this game would inevitably work out much better there than it would in RPG, and would probably accumulate more interest to boot.

 

-Tyler

 

I do not believe so - I know that Bionifight can work as an RPG. I'm not saying the current build is perfect, but I am saying that it has outgrown the G&T forum. 

 

I'm not saying that G&T can't have story driven projects, but Bionifight in particular has always been described as "An RPG with all fighting and no story". If that is the case, then introducing a story would make it an RPG - and that is what we are doing. I shall be giving greater focus to the story aspect of the game in the revised version.

 

Concerning Bionifight... I personally, probably won't have time to play it. But I do heartily support it, and think it'll work out great. I was a fairly regular player back when the 'Ultimate' and 'Drift Force' editions of the game were running in G&T, and I know, first-hand, that it worked. And worked well.

 

There is no clear-cut formula for a 'perfect' or 'successful' RPG; ergo, it's impossible to say that it 'won't work because of' this, that, or whatever doesn't fit one's personal philosophy. If you haven't seen it in action, how do you know? Or how can you even make an educated guess, if what's being proposed is something that's never been done before, ever? You can talk all you want, but when it really gets down to the nitty-gritty, sometimes it's the things that seem ridiculous in theory, that actually work the best. Think back to WWII, when the Nazi forces absolutely threw the established 'rules' of warfare down the drain and steamrollered much of Europe via unorthodox 'lightning war'. Things like that.

 

In the end, just like in a free trade economy, it's the RPG forum playerbase (i.e. the consumer) that eventually decides what lives and dies. No matter what the RPG is, or how atypical it is, if the people like it, it survives and thrives. And who's to say what the playerbase likes? Does any one of us represent the playerbase? I think not.

 

But I would (tentatively) recommend that the rules-heavy HP system be dropped. Such a thing worked great in G&T, but battles do tend to function somewhat differently in the RPG format.

 

E: Ninja'd by Tyler. He does make a really good point. But I'm still going to post this; feedback is always great.

 

Bolded part for emphasis, since I know that a G&T series switching over to the RPG forum is unprecedented, I believe? Although I feel like there might have been a better example to compare us to than the Nazis, personally.  

 

I am currently revising; I'll be removing the HP system in it. Once I've shown the revisions to Blade and Chro, I'll hopefully be able to show everyone the updates later today or tonight.

 

By "most of us," I meant the experienced RPers posting in this topic who aren't previously attached (at least for a long time) to Bionifight. If the people in this topic say probably not, the judges are definitely likely to echo the same sentiments (especially as some of the pople here are judges).

 

I definitely understand that I haven't been involved in it in years, and I imagine it has notably changed. If you give it life, story, a reason to be an RPG and not a game, I'll be happy to see it. As it is, though, it seems like a skeleton. I'd like top see you flesh it out as you've stated, adding a reason and an explanation. However, what you've just said is contradictory to what has already been said in this topic. If it is about finding a way out, then don't say it's about fighting. Keep to one side of the argument.

 

The two week cycle really depends upon what the RPG is actually focused. If you want to focus on the tournament, make it two week fight cycles, otherwise a week on a week off. Or do two weeks on and a week off. Real time in an RPG gets dicey.

 

Overall, I've got to echo Tyler's sentiment. Unless this becomes story-driven, then I think it works far better as a game. If you don't ant to change, don't, and let it thrive in G&T. =3

 

Shadowhawk, this topic represents part of the RPG forum playerbase. Not all or even most for sure, but it's not one person's philosophy, it's multiple people saying we think this would work better with some fleshing out and/or a few changes.

 

You are talking like the focus can't be on both the fighting and finding a way out; can a story not have multiple focuses, multiple plot points? If I am supposed to limit my players to a single objective, then I'm not quite sure what to say. There will be players who wish to play for the story, and there will be players who wish to play for the fighting, and there will be players who wish to play for both. 

 

As far as time - it is always flexible. If I find that, for example, a two week model is too short, then I will extend it to three weeks; adjustments can always be made.

 

My suggestion for Bionifight? A fight every other week. That way players can spend more time with the story without having to get themselves knocked out.

 

And I can personally attest to the RPGness of Bionifight. I played the tail end of Bionifight: Ultimate, and most of the players had to actively try not to make their characters, well, characters. At least, that's how it felt to me. I can definitely see this working.

 

I don't have much of a reply to this except that I think I do agree with the "one week fight, one week story" setup - and that I'm sure there are other Bionifight players that could attest to the "RPGness" of the series if asked.

[shadow pridak money gang]

I don't get why story and tournament battling is mutually exclusive though. Like, really, from what I've seen in the proposal, the players who want to focus on the fighting can make fighting their main focus, those who want to focus on story can make story their main focus.

 

But nope, it MUST be story-driven and story-driven only. I'm saying this now, I feel the players posting and the ones who demand space opera after space opera are what hold me back from joining more RPGs. It worked well in G&T, yes, but what's wrong with testing the waters in a different environment? Experimentation is a thing you know...

 

You're...going to talk to me...about experimentation.

 

Okay.

 

Look, I'm the last guy who is going to advocate a story-only RPG. I can tell you I hate them; I'm a character studier and I always have been, to the point where I will, sometimes, even eschew plot until it's needed to keep people interested. Do I believe characters can build their own stories? Yes. Do I believe there's enough opportunity for Bionifight to do it in an RPG forum, instead of G&T? No. I'm not going to tell Voltex he's wrong when he says Bionifight's become this quasi-game-roleplay thing, but I don't feel like it's evolved to the point where it's more roleplay and less game. 

 

As for space operas...what are you talking about? TPtI got past an RPG about Rahkshi in high school. Tiragath's put together a tank RPG. Hub wants a culinary game. I'm not asking him to ###### write me The Empire Strikes Back, I'm just asking him to show me why this is a game I could feel comfortable approving.

 

-Tyler

Edited January 15, 2015 by Tyler Durden

[Voltex]

Look, I'm the last guy who is going to advocate a story-only RPG. I can tell you I hate them; I'm a character studier and I always have been, to the point where I will, sometimes, even eschew plot until it's needed to keep people interested. Do I believe characters can build their own stories? Yes. Do I believe there's enough opportunity for Bionifight to do it in an RPG forum, instead of G&T? No. I'm not going to tell Voltex he's wrong when he says Bionifight's become this quasi-game-roleplay thing, but I don't feel like it's evolved to the point where it's more roleplay and less game. 

 

-Tyler

 

 

Just a quick question that's semi-unrelated, but what are the chances that an RPG based upon the Bionicle Mafia games would get approved?

[shadow pridak money gang]

Gonna have to use the rule of thumb we always use in OTC: we generally can't talk much about what could be approved in just one sentence, but if you threw me into a PM with a couple of the guys and you have an idea handy, I'd be glad to talk about it.

 

Like, you know me. We're cool. I'm not trying to stonewall your game or anything, I just have a lot of doubts whether it could achieve a lot of crossover success and they haven't all been soothed over yet.

 

-Tyler

Edited January 15, 2015 by Tyler Durden

[Krayzikk]

Normally I'd wait for things to make their way into the Judging topic, but given the number of games and amount of discussion, I figured I'd chime in.

 

Tanks: I honestly can't think of much to criticize here. Maybe flesh out the characteristics of certain Armors a little. You've got people who want to play it, a well-thought out world, and you've clearly put thought into it. I'd say it's ready to send to the judges.

 

Asylum: You've got a well thought out concept here, and not one we've seen before. A lot of the recommendations I have for you have to do with formatting. Firstly, as noted, you can eliminate the Staff or Patient section from the profile form. Since only staff will play staff characters, you don't need to have that indicator. I would also recommend that you not have everything so centered, and change the double spaced text back to single spaced. 

 

While I know you're not happy to hear it, you really should put that map in the main post. Include a link to a larger version if you must but that image really needs to be readily available. I can't even open the link from my current device. The only other suggestion I have for you is to make absolutely certain that you have some kind of plan for the plot, and the time to implement it. The lack of either of those has lead to the death of more RPGs than I care to count.

 

Also, stop talking one on one in the topic between each other. Better to do that over PMs.

 

Bionifight: Here is where the brunt of discussion is happening right now. I'll preface this with two one important fact; I have never played Bionifight. Rather than a detriment, however, I believe that to be a good thing. I respect your intent to maintain the spirit and integrity of the Bionifight 'franchise', but the simplest fact of its presence in this topic means that it must be judged as an RPG. 

 

It is from that perspective that I will proceed.

 

The first thing I note is that there's still a heavy influence from the Games forum on how combat is handled and characters are created. This is something I would recommend dropping, or at least limiting. Equipment and weapon "slots" doesn't work as well for a TBRPG as it would for a game or even a traditional RPG. As others has said, I would probably urge a lengthening of the fight cycle.

 

Aside from these aspects, there's nothing wrong with the game from a technical perspective. It is here that we run into the game's biggest issue, however. The emphasis is, very clearly, on the fighting. Tournament RPGs can and have worked; Tournament of Shadows was before my time, but Day/Night Run were games i participated in and they ran very well.

 

But their emphasis was largely on the story. Even when the tournament emphasis was dominant the story was there, working in the background. Events like the zombified intruder near the beginning of Night Run, and the isolated areas characters weren't supposed to go. The tournament was the initial device but the story hooks were there all along and players actively sought them out.

 

This game doesn't currently have that. It has brief references to "Infinity Stones", but outside of a sentence explanation and a veiled Marvel reference, we don't know what they are. We don't know almost anything about the setting, and there's no real hint of what might be out there to find. If I were to break this game down to its core components the ratio of fight information to story information would be drastically lopsided towards the former. Anyone who tells you that fighting will never be a part of these games doesn't know what they're talking about, but fighting without sufficient story is equally improbable.

 

Permit me to put this in abstracts; a plot requires some kind of conflict that must be resolved, and from there, an arc to reach that conclusion. This is a little different for RPGs (given that the arc isn't nearly as clean cut), but the basic principle is the same. Your plot hook, that these characters have been plucked from their world, has a lot of potential. Emphasize it. Right now, however, it's merely a device to facilitate this massive crossover tournament. There is, referring back to that outline, clear goal or antagonistic force. They want to go back home, but that isn't really tied into the main game aspect (the tournament) or hinted at as having a method by which that could happen. The PCs are supposed to fight, but they are on the same side in this plot. And that side doesn't really have an opposing force.

 

I appreciate your intent in this game, and I recognize the fine line it walks between Games and RPG. In its current form, however, it decidedly falls to the Games side of that line. I think some fundamental issues need to be addressed before you submit it.

 

I would be happy to talk them over if that would be helpful.

[Voltex]

Gonna have to use the rule of thumb we always use in OTC: we generally can't talk much about what could be approved in just one sentence, but if you threw me into a PM with a couple of the guys and you have an idea handy, I'd be glad to talk about it.

 

-Tyler

 

Eh, it's more of an "is it even possible" thing right now. Probably not something I'll have the time or energy to invest in, but I'll keep that in mind if I do find out a way to make a game that's based on permadeath work as an RPG.

 

E: Missed Krayzikk's post, reading it now

 

-snip-

 

I appreciate the input.

 

I'm currently working on revising the RPG; once I have done so and confirmed that both Blade and Chro are okay with the changes being made, I'll post a new version here.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Strange Festive Voltex

[JiMing]

 

 

I don't get why story and tournament battling is mutually exclusive though. Like, really, from what I've seen in the proposal, the players who want to focus on the fighting can make fighting their main focus, those who want to focus on story can make story their main focus.

 

But nope, it MUST be story-driven and story-driven only. I'm saying this now, I feel the players posting and the ones who demand space opera after space opera are what hold me back from joining more RPGs. It worked well in G&T, yes, but what's wrong with testing the waters in a different environment? Experimentation is a thing you know...

You're...going to talk to me...about experimentation.

 

Okay.

 

Look, I'm the last guy who is going to advocate a story-only RPG. I can tell you I hate them; I'm a character studier and I always have been, to the point where I will, sometimes, even eschew plot until it's needed to keep people interested. Do I believe characters can build their own stories? Yes. Do I believe there's enough opportunity for Bionifight to do it in an RPG forum, instead of G&T? No. I'm not going to tell Voltex he's wrong when he says Bionifight's become this quasi-game-roleplay thing, but I don't feel like it's evolved to the point where it's more roleplay and less game.

 

As for space operas...what are you talking about? TPtI got past an RPG about Rahkshi in high school. Tiragath's put together a tank RPG. Hub wants a culinary game. I'm not asking him to ###### write me The Empire Strikes Back, I'm just asking him to show me why this is a game I could feel comfortable approving.

 

-Tyler

I didn't so much have an issue with you specifically (I mean you actually played Bionifight a little in its current form). I will say however, despite how outlandish the concepts you brought up seem, they seem to focus heavily on characterization and worldbuilding (of the miniature variety, but still). Bionifight's getting flack for trying to incorporate those, but put in a lot of fighting as well. And I would disagree that Bionifight's still not an RPG. I played the games exactly as I would in an RPG fight scene. The question now is how to make the fight scenes just as prominient as characterization, worldbuilding, etc. An idea many people are unwilling to, and don't want to consider. Edited January 15, 2015 by Toru Acura: The Saboteur

[IcarusBen]

There. I added a map and I added a more dramatic introduction.

 

And I... DO! Mean! dramatic...

 

I'll edit out both that little talk about Skakdi and the addendums referencing them in a little bit.

 

EDIT: Full list of changes

• Cut out all references to Skakdi and Vortixx. 
• Tried formatting a little better, the section with Ghidora's and my characters will probably take up two more posts if and when this is actually approved, so as to not clutter up this post. Until then, it stays where it is and how it is.
• Changed the intro (after the diary) to be more dramatic and less (well, maybe not less) cheesy.
• Added a rule where only the GMs can play staff from the get-go, but we'll give out staff characters as rewards for good RPing and writing.
• Of course, added the picture of the sanitarium. I don't know how this is supposed to look from the outside, but now you can see the layout!

Edited January 15, 2015 by IcarusBen