The Power of the Toa Nuva

[LewaLew]

Exactly how powerful are the Toa Nuva? We've always known that, somehow, the Toa Nuva are significantly more powerful than the average Toa. Sometimes it has been demonstrated through special abilities that only a Toa Nuva can do, but they were always supposed to have more raw amounts of power available to them as well. This trait, however, has not often been illustrated.

 

It's not helped by the great power levels Toa are already shown to possess. Jaller's barely constrained Nova Blast was underwater, and thus was assuredly going to be weaker than the usual Nova Blast for a Toa of Fire, yet the Barraki and Toa Mahri alike acknowledged that even that would have devastated everything around it. Helryx also demonstrated extremely powerful abilities, though that fact was implied to be because of her exceptional skill in making the most of her powers. (The inverse is demonstrated by the Toa Metru, whose inexperience caused them to exhaust their powers quite quickly) So far, we have not seen a Toa Nuva do something that clearly establishes a greater level of power than these examples.

 

Perhaps it's just my memory. My once-encyclopedic knowledge of BIONICLE has diminished over the last four years, and I cannot expect myself to remember everything. Do any of you recall an occurrence that truly illustrates the scale of the Toa Nuva's power versus that of ordinary Toa?

[Sumiki]

This is Bionicle. If you're expecting something self-consistent, then you're only going to be disappointed.

[fishers64]

I would encourage you to consider Gali's Nova Blast in Karzanhi. While Jaller's Nova would have probably only boiled the Barraki, Gali's destroyed that entire land. Considering how big that island/land was, no small feat - and it didn't just flood the area. We're talking smash-everything walls of water here.

[Hitoshura]

If we haven't seen it, it doesn't mean they aren't capable of such. It says quite clearly here on BS01, just for some memory refreshing

 

 

The Toa Nuva are more powerful than standard Toa for several reasons. They are the only beings that can use Kanohi Nuva, which are more powerful than normal Kanohi masks and can share their powers with nearby allies. They have an increased amount of Elemental Power and greater control over it. For instance, they can set a delayed elemental blast for tactical purposes; at one point, Pohatu caused all the stones in the Shadowed One's fortress to turn to dust about an hour after the Toa Nuva left the island of Odina.

 

This is Bionicle. If you're expecting something self-consistent, then you're only going to be disappointed.

Also, this. Just this.

[LewaLew]

I'm not doubting that they have greater power, nor am I forgetting that they can use special tactics like the one Pohatu used. My question is how much more powerful are they?

 

Gali Nuva's Nova Blast is not a good example, in my opinion, mainly because we have never seen a comparison to it. Jaller's theoretical blast was already handicapped by the water as well, so it's hard to put a good estimate on it, and every other Nova Blast has been treated essentially as a nuke anyway, thus making it hard to determine the full extent of a standard issue Nova Blast. We don't even know if Gali's Nova Blast could have destroyed more than what it did, due to Karzahni being an island. Perhaps Gali's blast would have destroyed more if it had taken place on one of the continents instead of on an island.

 

And Sumiki has a point, but hey, a lack of consistency never stopped BZPower from discussing anything.

[fishers64]

I'm pretty sure a standard issue Nova was confirmed to be about that size of Metru Nui. Karzanhi would seem to be bigger than that.

[Pomegranate]

They seem to have a lot more stamina and reserves of elemental power too, if anything. I just reread their battle against the Piraka in the first Legends book, and none of them seemed to get very tired of fighting or get limited by the amount of power they were expending. They were able to "utterly defeat" Reidak multiple times (so many that the Nuva lost count), and even though the chapter made a point of showing that he was very resilient despite their enormous effort, it doesn't negate their enormous effort. None of them went down without being pretty much tortured psychologically or physically. I don't recall them ever really tiring out, besides Gali in the MoL movie, and that was after fighting off Tahu if I'm remembering it correctly, which just shows that it takes a Toa Nuva to tire out a Toa Nuva

Also way before that, when facing the Bohrok-Kal, they basically defeated them by feeding their own raw power into their Toa cubes which overloaded the Kal, and I'm confident that average Toa simply would not have been powerful enough to have that effect on the Kal who would've probably absorbed all a regular Toa's power without difficulty.

If I'm wrong, please do correct me, but yeah, I've never felt like there was a lack of demonstration of their superior Toa power. I might take the time to reread the Karda Nui stories to refresh on how they dealt with all those Makuta?

[Quisoves Potoo]

This comic should shine some light.

[Toatapio Nuva]

A Toa Nuva has approximately 125% of the power a regular Toa has. This was confirmed by Greg in the past, thought the source is gone.

[Sir Kohran]

There do seem to be relatively few moments following the Toa's transformation into Nuva in which they really get to show off much of this supposedly increased power. The Kal storyline begins with them being robbed of their elemental power, and only regaining it after a last-minute trick undoes the threat. Then, despite having their powers throughout the MOL storyline, they are largely retreating from the Rahkshi for most of it. Of course, the Nuva do eventually crush the Rahkshi, though their methods don't seem to involve more than standard usage of their powers. Their lowest point came in '06, when they were wedged into the storyline to have them do little more than get unambiguously flattened by the Piraka, an unavoidable outcome because the Inika were the hero sets for that year, so the glory of defeating or at least more successfully battling the villains has to be theirs.

 

I don't recall them doing anything in '07, and by '08 they were in different forms. So it was only when facing the Rahkshi that the Nuva really got to triumph.

[LewaLew]

EDIT: From the looks of the map (http://biosector01.com/wiki/images/1/1b/Matoran_Universe.png), Karzahni is the same size as Metru Nui, if it is not smaller than the City of Legends.

 

That comic should have shone some light, but unfortunately, it doesn't really. We've seen ordinary Toa create cyclones, tidal waves, and freeze cages of fire. (Or similar things) Now, while those acts likely drained the energy of those Toa far more than they would have drained the Toa Nuva, we have no in-story example demonstrating that. It's all just stated; never shown.

 

The main portion of the story that seems like it should have demonstrated their power is 2008. Since they were fighting Makuta, they had very little reason to hold back, because Makuta can take it. Yet, they rarely did anything that seemed remarkably out of the ordinary. The closest instance I can think of is when Gorast disrupted Pohatu's power. It was something akin to a slow Nova Blast, yet it didn't deplete Pohatu's energy.

 

Besides, all these are examples of stamina, which is harder to put an estimate on than raw power. As I mentioned before, Helryx has done comparable things even though she is an ordinary Toa. In contrast, the Toa Metru were quite weak, since their inexperience caused them to exhaust their powers quickly. The Toa Nuva have never been shown to exhaust their power at anytime. Not as the Toa Mata, and not as the Toa Nuva. We have very little knowledge about their elemental stamina.

 

In my own imagination, I've always liked to assume that the Toa Nuva have a level of power that can actually give a Makuta a challenge. For instance, I've always presumed that an ordinary Toa of Water can probably flood a Wahi without using a Nova Blast, while Gali Nuva could sink an island if she cared to do so. However, there's no evidence for this. It's just my imagined estimate.

Edited April 5, 2014 by LewaLew

[JAG18]

EDIT: From the looks of the map (http://biosector01.com/wiki/images/1/1b/Matoran_Universe.png), Karzahni is the same size as Metru Nui, if it is not smaller than the City of Legends.

From the Greg man: "I don't think Ameet worried enormously about making sure every size was just right. They were working off a map I drew, and I am not an artist and wasn't worrying enormously about proportion so much as relative location."

 

So yeah, Karzahni may be smaller than Metru Nui, it may very well be larger.

[LewaLew]

So I suppose that proves only that we have no idea how much damage Gali dealt at all, let alone how great a Toa Nuva's full capacity is.

[JAG18]

Not necessarily, if other sources besides that map say that Karzahni is bigger than Metru-Nui than it probably is.

 

Of course, that still wouldn't answer your question, but it might help us get a little bit closer to the answer.

[Sir Kohran]

 

 

The main portion of the story that seems like it should have demonstrated their power is 2008.

 

Weren't they Phantoka or Mistika by then? Thus, no longer Nuva?

 

 

 

In contrast, the Toa Metru were quite weak, since their inexperience caused them to exhaust their powers quickly. The Toa Nuva have never been shown to exhaust their power at anytime. Not as the Toa Mata, and not as the Toa Nuva. We have very little knowledge about their elemental stamina.

 

I think the idea that Toa could deplete their powers didn't exist until '04, when an excuse was needed for why the Metru didn't use their powers in the movie.

 

Before then, Toa powers seem to have been unlimited - the Mata used their powers to defeat Makuta then used them throughout the Bohrok period with no sign that they were ever running low. The only time the issue of power loss was raised was when the symbols were taken by the Kal.

[LewaLew]

Unfortunately, I can't think of any source that states the size of Karzahni.

 

The Phantoka and Mistika are Toa Nuva, just with special adaptive armor from Artahka.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if that concept of limited power didn't come up until 2004. Nonetheless, it was explained away by a lack of experience. The Toa Mata had been trained by Hydraxon, so that wasn't a concern for them.

Edited April 5, 2014 by LewaLew

[Katuko]

On Mata Nui, the Toa appeared to be extremely powerful. Gali and Lewa, still in their Mata forms, managed to call down a thunderstorm. Kopaka stops an avalanche in seconds in his CGI promo video. The Toa sometimes appeared able to disintegrate big rocks thrown at them right before they hit, using only fire or ice, which makes their power very high already. In their Nuva forms, it seemed to me that they had roughly 50% increased max potential, though I long thought it was something like 200% to 300% based on how the promo blurbs spoke of their power.

 

Later, the Toa Metru set a lower standard for elemental usage, but they were untrained. The Toa Inika had what I like to think of as the average amount of elemental power potential. I think the Nuva's power comes from diversity/more control, expending less energy total on each move, and of course a certain percentage increase in raw strength/amount of the element to be conjured at once.

 

Pohatu used a time-delayed elemental blast to completely dismantle the Dark Hunter's fortress on Odina. I have to assume that a regular Toa of Stone would not be able to topple it entirely in one go.

 

 

Regarding running low on energy: At least Mask of Light showed Gali being very tired after using her energy to heal Tahu. She is then seen kneeling by the river, with waves of energy flowing into her hands from the water. To me it looked very much like she was recharging. Also, I believe official material around the same time mentioned that Toa could cleanse infected masks by expending a great deal of elemental energy to do so - enough that they would have to recharge energy for a while. I don't recall if this was stated during the Rahkshi events or if it was earlier.

[V-N]

 

The main portion of the story that seems like it should have demonstrated their power is 2008.

 

Weren't they Phantoka or Mistika by then? Thus, no longer Nuva?

 

 

 

In contrast, the Toa Metru were quite weak, since their inexperience caused them to exhaust their powers quickly. The Toa Nuva have never been shown to exhaust their power at anytime. Not as the Toa Mata, and not as the Toa Nuva. We have very little knowledge about their elemental stamina.

 

I think the idea that Toa could deplete their powers didn't exist until '04, when an excuse was needed for why the Metru didn't use their powers in the movie.

 

Before then, Toa powers seem to have been unlimited - the Mata used their powers to defeat Makuta then used them throughout the Bohrok period with no sign that they were ever running low. The only time the issue of power loss was raised was when the symbols were taken by the Kal.

 

 

For the first question, the Toa Nuva were still Nuva. The just got new armor, and a new name to market the sets.

 

On the second question: the Toa Mata had training from Hydraxon before being sealed in Toa canisters, so I suppose, even if they couldn't remember anything else, that they were able to more able to efficiently use their powers from instincts gained from their said training?

 

I'm not sure on this, but can a Toa absorb (or save extra) power from their element? If that is the case, the Toa Metru, on industrial Metru-Nui, didn't have as much exposure to the wild elements as the Toa Mata on tropical Mata-Nui. Thus, the Metrus' powers were drained all the faster, whereas the Mata could conserve their power by manipulating what was already around them.

 

EDIT: Ninja'd

Edited April 5, 2014 by V-N

[LewaLew]

Again, Pohatu's time-delay ability was already known to be a Nuva-exclusive ability, but it doesn't show the scale of a Toa Nuva's power, which is what seems to be so elusive.

 

I find the mention of Gali's healing Tahu interesting. It was the only example of something like that happening, though, so we don't know if it was a Nuva-exclusive ability or not.

[Katuko]

I'm not sure on this, but can a Toa absorb (or save extra) power from their element? If that is the case, the Toa Metru, on industrial Metru-Nui, didn't have as much exposure to the wild elements as the Toa Mata on tropical Mata-Nui. Thus, the Metrus' powers were drained all the faster, whereas the Mata could conserve their power by manipulating what was already around them.

Yes and no. I believe we've seen Toa absorb their element with ease, like Vakama absorbing the heat of the room in order to freeze the Fire Entity he faced, and Kopaka absorbing the blizzard around himself in Mask of Light. How long they can retain it, though, is not stated.

 

We know that a Toa can absorb their element as part of the control they have. This converts it to elemental energy, and I have just taken it for fact these past years (especially due to Gali's actions by the river) that Toa can recharge themselves by just storing that elemental energy. It stands to reason, though, that at some point the energy tank - or whatever it is - will be full. Vakama fainted from the effort, so he definitely overexerted himself there. I don't think there was any mention of where the heat would have gone afterwards, but it seems likely that when Vakama lost his grip on it it would simply go back to being "normal" heat in the air around him. Absorbing heat and controlling heat can blend a bit, and I have no idea whether "absorbing" heat would actually require expending elemental energy in order to move the heat towards yourself and keep it contained. Seems just as likely, actually.

 

Still, my (personal) canon has been that Toa can absorb their element, convert it to EE, and store it... but only up until their normal maximum amount, and only by being in direct contact with their element (essentially "eating" it through their hand receptor). Gali's description of her own Nova Blast had her "summoning every last bit of moisture from the air for hundreds of kios around". She is calling it towards herself, which is probably just normal water control done with the maximum amount of energy you can muster. She did not absorb any water here.

[Sir Kohran]

 

 

Also, I believe official material around the same time mentioned that Toa could cleanse infected masks by expending a great deal of elemental energy to do so - enough that they would have to recharge energy for a while. I don't recall if this was stated during the Rahkshi events or if it was earlier.

 

I don't recall anything like that, though BS01 states: "For an Infected Kanohi to be cleansed, it requires the combined Elemental Powers of six Toa." (Although the only actual example of this only involved three Toa.)

 

 

 

I'm not sure on this, but can a Toa absorb (or save extra) power from their element? If that is the case, the Toa Metru, on industrial Metru-Nui, didn't have as much exposure to the wild elements as the Toa Mata on tropical Mata-Nui. Thus, the Metrus' powers were drained all the faster, whereas the Mata could conserve their power by manipulating what was already around them.

 

I think what we need to determine here is how much of a Toa's elemental power comes from within and how much is drawn from the external setting.

 

 

 

Kopaka absorbing the blizzard around himself in Mask of Light.

 

Did he actually absorb it? I always thought he was just stopping the fierce weather so he could speak to Jaller and Takua easily.

[fishers64]

I find the mention of Gali's healing Tahu interesting. It was the only example of something like that happening, though, so we don't know if it was a Nuva-exclusive ability or not.

Actually the Metru did it with an Ash Bear in Metru Nui (putting Toa energy into a water sphere) so it would seem to be non-Nuva ability. Water as a healing property might be Nuva exclusive though, or maybe Gali put a little of hers in there when she healed Tahu. Or maybe the Metru were just inexperienced/suffering from misconceptions. We don't know.

 

I think there's a difference between recharging (as Gali did) and absorbing your element as Vakama did, to the point where he had to release it, as in the Onewa saving proto-reclamation absorption and fighting the Fire Entity. The end of the latter scene has Vakama "blasting the entire chamber to atoms", and was very clear that it took a lot of effort to hold all that energy in.

[LewaLew]

Ah yes, I forgot about Graalok. Unfortunately, that just shows that it's not a Nuva-exclusive ability, which doesn't help the discussion at hand.

 

I believe that Vakama's inability to hold the absorbed energy is a sign of his inexperience. Either that, or he absorbed so much heat that it exceeded his own reserves. (Perhaps a Nuva in the same situation could hold all that energy?)

[Matoro Lives]

I think the toa nuva were somewhat inconsistent with their power levels, they demontrated in MoL that Tahu and Gail (and I can't remember if pohatu was in that fight) couldn't hold off 3 rahkshi from destroy ta-koro. The entire team got their butts kicked by the piraka (who then were defeated by a novice team). I'm not sure how to guage the inika power levels though, because the inika were supercharged with lightning. I personally think that the toa mata were somewhat weaker than the average toa, and that the nuva transformation gave them a power boost to normal levels. Possibly their time in the canisters could have degenerated their bodies a bit (like with the matoran of metru nui) causing them to lose power, and the nuva transformation restored their power. Remember takanuva also looked like a toa nuva, and he beacame a toa in a more normal way (as normal as a toa of light can get anyway). The notion that the Nuva were more powerful than the average toa, disagrees with what the story demonstrates. Yes, the toa were able to hold off makuta in Karda nui, but most of those makuta were handicapped in some way, and the toa were backed up by takanuva, and ignika, two toa who were incredibly deadly to makuta. Plus the toa got a gear upgrade in the form of adaptive armor. I think the toa nuva were fairly average as far as power is concerned.

[TERIDAX941]

Remember takanuva also looked like a toa nuva, and he beacame a toa in a more normal way (as normal as a toa of light can get anyway).

It was stated that when Matoran become Toa, they take the appearance of what they believe a Toa should look like. So when Takua became a Toa, the idea in his head was the Toa Nuva, so therefore his form resembled them. The only exceptions were the Toa Inika, because of their bizarre means of transformation.

 

But storywise, the Mata were average Toa, and when they became the Nuva have more power and control over that power than normal Toa. Therefore I believe that it's basically inexperience that led to their defeats (the Turaga were experts about telling the Toa all about their enemies *after* they met them...)

[bonesiii]

I think the toa nuva were somewhat inconsistent with their power levels, they demontrated in MoL that Tahu and Gail (and I can't remember if pohatu was in that fight) couldn't hold off 3 rahkshi from destroy ta-koro. The entire team got their butts kicked by the piraka (who then were defeated by a novice team)... The notion that the Nuva were more powerful than the average toa, disagrees with what the story demonstrates.

It does not; this appears again to be the "battle-winning power level" fallacy that I mentioned in another topic recently. Basically it assumes that power level equals victory over enemies of less power level but that isn't at all how it works, as a moment's thought will demonstrate.

 

Also, those Rahkshi were also the height of their "power level" (but it's more about being effective matches against the Nuva; their main weakness was light, so a less powerful overall Toa of Light will still more easily defeat them), and the Nuva weren't used to fighting intelligent enemies, etc. The thing that the storyline disagrees with is the oversimplistic (and rather boring) power level fallacy.

[Katuko]

I think the toa nuva were somewhat inconsistent with their power levels, they demontrated in MoL that Tahu and Gail (and I can't remember if pohatu was in that fight) couldn't hold off 3 rahkshi from destroy ta-koro.

I'd argue that had the Nuva used even just a tiny bit more of their power to fight Rahkshi, they would have prevailed sooner. Once they fight directly at Kini-Nui, they stop the Rahkshi without needing to exert themselves too much. Lewa makes a tornado that sweeps away three of them at once, and the rest are felled with just a few elemental blasts.

 

I mean, look at how the Toa lost earlier in the movie. Tahu aims fire around Lehrak (likely because he doesn't want to kill), which stops the Rahkshi for maybe two seconds. Tahu then gets jumped without activating his Hau, and the short wrestle leads to Lehrak deciding to just melt the ground with acid. Understandably, this makes the two Toa retreat. Also, it is understandable that Gali is unable to do too much in a lake of fire, and that 3 Rahkshi firing death lasers at the area instead of the Toa is not really possible to block.

 

Notably, Kopaka's powers are well suited to stop both Rahkshi and rampaging Toa swiftly - by freezing them solid. The fight he started with all 6 Rahkshi in the comic showed that Kopaka (and anyone with the right set of powers, really) could likely take them on just by dodging with Speed and using Ice to freeze them one by one, but obviously he can't do much against Vohrak's energy drain - especially not when he has 5 other enemies to worry about too. The powers he shows elsewhere have him creating ice structures in seconds as he skis down Mt. Ihu, most likely not expending more than a token amount of his power. Otherwise he'd probably be more conserving with it. I don't know if Kopaka Mata could do the same for any length of time without wasting a large portion of his energy, and I don't know by how much manipulating existing ice allows Kopaka to reduce his energy consumption.

 

Onua tries to bury the Rahkshi, but since he doesn't do much else than bring the roof down we can't be certain to what extent he could have used his powers. Pohatu does nothing with his stone despite having plenty to work with in the caves, another case of powers being toned down for the movie, and of the Toa being surprised by "unblockable" powers. Onua gets energy drained, and Pohatu - instead of retaliating with something like super-speed or a giant stone fist (like what Hewkii Inika uses) - runs over towards Onua at normal speed... and gets fear-blasted. Later he throws his tools to pin Turahk to a wall, which is cool but also a rather pathetic loss for the Rahkshi in question. We gain no knowledge of the Toa's elemental power from this.

 

The entire team got their butts kicked by the piraka (who then were defeated by a novice team). I'm not sure how to guage the inika power levels though, because the inika were supercharged with lightning. I personally think that the toa mata were somewhat weaker than the average toa, and that the nuva transformation gave them a power boost to normal levels.

The Mata show enough power to be on par with the Inika, but their time as Nuva in general was met more with defeat because villains still had to be threatening (I'd say that the Worf Effect is very much present as the reason for their losses in both 2002/2003 and 2006). The Kal stole their powers, so we never got to see them properly in action then beyond the short sparring match the Toa had. The Rahkshi did their surprise attacks at first, and despite the comic showing some decent usage of power here and there we still had the movie, in which the Nuva were pretty much never using either their elements or their Kanohi power to full extent. I mean, imagine if Pohatu actually got to use his Mask of Speed along with some stone fists in Onu-Koro; the Rahkshi could have been the victims of some serious rock punting right there! If Tahu wanted to mimic Lehrak and melt the ground/roof/whatever, he could do so, but I suppose he's limited by not wanting to cause more environmental damage than the Rahkshi had already done (plus going mildly insane from being infected).

 

Remember takanuva also looked like a toa nuva, and he beacame a toa in a more normal way (as normal as a toa of light can get anyway). The notion that the Nuva were more powerful than the average toa, disagrees with what the story demonstrates.

Takanuva is a walking plot solver for Mask of Light, and obviously you can't have a legendary character with less armor than the previous heroes. It's the only reason he gets a hover-bike, too: because it looks cool. In the movie it does just about jack squat that Hahli couldn't do on foot. Now, given that he got that Nuva-styled armor, I wonder how much it is a part of Takanuva compared to the "extra padding" the Nuva got after their transformation. Did he, like, actually get extra metal armor just because he thought he should get it? Is the Nuva armor supposed to be just their normal armor re-shaped a bit, unlike what the sets and other animated versions show? Takua had seen Toa Mata before they became Nuva, why did he think he should be a Nuva? Lot's of questions about the bogus explanations that do not concern anyone except us nitpickers.

 

Takanuva later gets both a Power Lance to channel his power more effectively, and a size increase. Both due to his new set, naturally, but also something that likely made him closer to a Nuva in power level anyways. The Lance was described as turning the slightest fraction of his power into a beam that could punch through stone. Compare to the movie, where he blasts Tuhrak with a non-boosted shot and does not make a hole straight through its torso (which, considering it had killed his friend and the Toa are said to dismantle the Rahkshi afterwards anyways, would not have mattered to the plot).

 

The Nuva, meanwhile, certainly had powers no other Toa could have, like the ability to time-delay blasts, and the obvious extra elemental energy stored in their Nuva Symbols. They have much greater control, but the magnitude (as in, the strength of a single fire blast, for example) we guess to be only 25-50% higher than a normal Toa's. Still, a "regular" flame in real life burns at somewhere between 700-3000°C depending on material. Wikipedia notes that a candle flame, at around 1500°C, "produces too low an ion density to be considered a plasma". BIONICLE separates Fire and Plasma into different elements, and we know ionization is important there. We know Fire produces a visible flame, more like a Bunsen burner on low setting than a blowtorch. We may conclude that Fire is not reaching Plasma levels of heat. Still, I imagine that with Nuva powers, you can ramp that flame up to a higher maximum, like 5000°C (as can be reached by burning cyanogen in ozone rather than oxygen, where it "only" reaches 4500°C). Maybe a regular Toa of Fire starts at 1500°C, and goes up to around 3000-3500°C when they force it. Can melt rock, but slower than a Toa Nuva at maybe 2500°C at the "relaxed" setting and 5000°C as the max. Just guesswork, but I think it'd be reasonable if we were to put numbers on it. The Toa of Fire would still not be going beyond the limits of "Fire", and it would not be all that obvious at a glance, but they'd still be more powerful without question.

 

Toa of Plasma can, by the very nature of their power, instantly output temperatures several thousands of degrees high -- and that is what we call "cold" plasma. It stands to reason that if a Toa of Fire and a Toa of Plasma were to compete in melting/vaporizing things, the Plasma would win by a mile. Still, a Toa of Fire can do a lot with "just" a few thousand degrees, and I view a Toa Nuva of Fire to be capable of reaching a level much like a low-end Plasma power as far as melting stuff goes. That is, in addition to their already lethal range of Fire powers. Pure temperature is not everything, just making someone's robe catch on fire is enough. Toa of Plasma could likely not cause "just" combustion like that, they'd just make a hole in the robe that does not ignite so much as it just... vanishes.

 

Plus, if Toa Pohatu expends maybe 25% of his total energy supply on toppling a fortress, then Toa Nuva Pohatu probably only used around 5%... with more control of the effect. The ability to keep going may very well put a Toa Nuva ahead in a contest of endurance, even if their regular Toa counterpart could possibly keep up for a while. Like, a Turaga goes "please disintegrate these rocks, they're blocking my view of the sunset". Toa Tahu has to spend a few seconds on each rock, and runs out of energy after 20 minutes, while Toa Nuva Tahu uses a second less per rock and runs out after 45 minutes, for example. Meanwhile Pohatu could have the job done much quicker simply because his power is better suited to deal with rocks.

 

Tahu, back to his Toa Mata level, managed to melt Nektann's armor off his body. If we assume the melting temperature of metallic protodermis to be close to iron, then it's somewhere around 1100°C to 1500°C; something Tahu could easily reach anyways with a normal flame. Dunno what to say about a Nuva's power in the same situation, but I know that Mask of Light at least showed him melting rocks, which then partly melted Rahkshi. Obviously they did not melt very quickly, but then again the blast was not direct and they were frozen almost immediately afterwards. This does not speak all that much of Tahu Nuva's power, but it places Kopaka Nuva's power as able to instantly freeze a substance that was likely around 1200°C at the time.

 

Tahu Mata also heats the air in a Bohrok chamber enough to blow it apart (Comic #7) and escapes unscathed. By estimate, he did this in less than a minute. In the same comic, Kopaka also states that his ice can hold lava at bay for "a few moments". I dunno, but instantly freezing lava around the Rahkshi may show an increase in power from that time, or it may just show that lots of lava = hard, small pool of lava = easy.

 

In any case, BIONICLE plays fast and loose with power levels. I have no idea how to estimate these things. Honestly, even if I were to write for 5 pages I'd still only be pulling numbers out of the air.

 

Yes, the toa were able to hold off makuta in Karda nui, but most of those makuta were handicapped in some way, and the toa were backed up by takanuva, and ignika, two toa who were incredibly deadly to makuta. Plus the toa got a gear upgrade in the form of adaptive armor. I think the toa nuva were fairly average as far as power is concerned.

If the Makuta wanted them dead, they would have just teleported over and crushed their heads with Magnetism anyways. One Makuta for each Toa, teleport behind them. Maybe use the Vohrak's power of energy draining instead, which has been able to stop Toa Nuva almost instantly before. Should be child's play. In such a situation, it doesn't matter if you have the power to vaporize mountains in the blink of an eye, once your skull goes "crack" I imagine it becomes hard to focus.

 

Similarly, Tahu Nuva could likely manage to ram his weapon into a Makuta's mouth hole and then cause the inside of their tin can to light up in a second. The Makuta are beings that could teleport away from such an attempt at their life, but in terms of effectiveness I'd bet on Tahu Nuva being quicker to do the job than Tahu Mata, especially if they had to melt through protosteel first. A second or two of metal-heating can make or break the attempt.

[V-N]

Reading Katuko's post, I'm thinking that the power of Toa Nuva might not be that much higher than regular Toa, in terms of raw power. For example, Katuko's argument that Tahu Nuva's fire can only get so hot (otherwise it becomes plasma) shows that there is a limit- which is a logical conclusion anyway. But, since any Toa are supposed to have complete command over their element, Tahu Nuva's fire can't be that much hotter than that of a regular Toa. Gali Nuva can't make water "more deadly" than regular water. How are you supposed to have more power over something you already have complete control over?

 

Certainly, Toa Nuva must have at least a little more sheer power than other Toa, but the true advantages of being Nuva may be having greater elemental energy reserves/endurance and range, plus a few extra perks such as the time-bomb and ability to use Kanohi Nuva. Maybe it also takes less concentration for Nuva to use their powers, and thus they can control more of their element at once, "adding to their power."

[Quisoves Potoo]

The entire team got their butts kicked by the piraka (who then were defeated by a novice team).

"Forewarned is forearmed." The Inika were somewhat more aware of the danger they were heading into than the Toa Nuva, as the latter group had not returned. Furthermore, unlike the Toa Nuva, who encountered all the Piraka before they encountered the Resistance, the Inika only encountered Vezon before meeting Garan. Matoro would have been enslaved were the Inika not immune to the effects of Antidermis. Additionally, I believe that the Inika never actually defeated the Piraka in battle (though they came close the first time round.) Correct me if I'm wrong.

EDIT: There are, I think, five total battles in which the Inika fought multiple Piraka. The first was the battle at the Piraka Stonghold, as detailed in Power Play, in which Hakann and Thok, both of whom had stolen Brutaka's power, emerged victorious over all other combatants. The second, also in Power Play, was the battle of Thok and Hakann against each other and against the Toa Inika and the other Piraka. This battle ended with a stalemate of sorts, the Toa Inika successfully restoring Brutaka's power to him and everyone being knocked unconscious by Hakann and Thok (who were themselves knocked unconscious by the Inika's zamor sphere which they used to restore Brutaka's power.) The next battle, detailed in Inferno, took place beneath the surface of Voya Nui and ended in victory for the Piraka. The next battle, also in Inferno, ended with the Toa Inika pursuing the Ignika up the 777 stairs. The final confrontation between the Inika (now Mahri) and the Piraka took place in Downfall, and would have ended in the deaths of the Mahri, but for the defeat of the Piraka by Axonn.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Quisoves Pugnat

[Phovos]

I think the Toa Nuva are just holding back. They were trained to be Toa, but they were never trained to use Nuva levels of power. That coupled with facing unknown enemies, Rahkshi, Skakdi and Makuta, all vastly intelligent compared to Rahi, Visorak and Bohrok swarms and the Toa law of not killing, it means we've never seen them let loose and show off the full spectrum of their powers.

[Matoro Lives]

 

The entire team got their butts kicked by the piraka (who then were defeated by a novice team).

 

"Forewarned is forearmed." The Inika were somewhat more aware of the danger they were heading into than the Toa Nuva, as the latter group had not returned. Furthermore, unlike the Toa Nuva, who encountered all the Piraka before they encountered the Resistance, the Inika only encountered Vezon before meeting Garan. Matoro would have been enslaved were the Inika not immune to the effects of Antidermis. Additionally, I believe that the Inika never actually defeated the Piraka in battle (though they came close the first time round.) Correct me if I'm wrong.

EDIT: There are, I think, five total battles in which the Inika fought multiple Piraka. The first was the battle at the Piraka Stonghold, as detailed in Power Play, in which Hakann and Thok, both of whom had stolen Brutaka's power, emerged victorious over all other combatants. The second, also in Power Play, was the battle of Thok and Hakann against each other and against the Toa Inika and the other Piraka. This battle ended with a stalemate of sorts, the Toa Inika successfully restoring Brutaka's power to him and everyone being knocked unconscious by Hakann and Thok (who were themselves knocked unconscious by the Inika's zamor sphere which they used to restore Brutaka's power.) The next battle, detailed in Inferno, took place beneath the surface of Voya Nui and ended in victory for the Piraka. The next battle, also in Inferno, ended with the Toa Inika pursuing the Ignika up the 777 stairs. The final confrontation between the Inika (now Mahri) and the Piraka took place in Downfall, and would have ended in the deaths of the Mahri, but for the defeat of the Piraka by Axonn.

The toa nuva were uninformed in the first battle, when they attacked the stronghold in the second battle, the toa had met up with the resistance and were aware of many of the piraka's abilities. It still took multiple toa to subdue reidak who was guarding the entrance, and when they attacked the rest of the piraka, the fight was pretty even. Even though the Piraka were just as busy fighting each other in that battle, as they were fighting the toa. I think even without brutaka's intervention the toa would have gone down in that fight. The inika on the other hand, had the advantage in most of their fights, but unforseeable circumstance prevented them from actually winning any of their battles. They were beating a team of 6 piraka and brutaka by themselves in their first battle. If the toa inika were to square off against the piraka in a battle with no interference of any sort, the inika would easily win. What the toa nuva demonstrated was that even when they knew about the enemy they were fighting the could barely hold their own against 5 of the team, who were preoccupied with fighting each other.

 

I personally think that EE power levels in the bionicle storyline were incredibly inconsistent. What the story says about EE power levels, and what the story demonstrates about EE power levels are two very different things. The story says that the toa nuva were significantly stronger than other toa. The story demonstrates that the toa nuva are not really that exceptional compared to other toa. The toa hagah, toa inika, toa mangai, and in some cases the toa metru all demonstrated that they were at least the toa nuva's equals if not (in some cases) better than them. Again, my theory is that the toa mata were actually weaker than the average toa due to spending too long in their canisters, thus weakening their bodies (like what happened to the matoran of metru nui). The toa were later restored to full power by the energized protodermis, and giving them new armor in the process. That's just my theory about it, but it agrees with what the story demonstrates, even if thats not what happened in the story. It makes the story make a lot more sense when you look at just how bad the toa nuva were at fighting, in what should have been easy battles. I'm not trying to say the toa nuva are weak toa, I'm just saying I find the whole higher power levels thing a bit hard to swallow, when the toa nuva clearly are no better than the other major teams in the storyline. I think the toa nuva are fairly average as far power is concerned, and no amount of statistics can change the fact that that is what the story demonstrates.

[Quisoves Potoo]

The toa nuva were uninformed in the first battle, when they attacked the stronghold in the second battle, the toa had met up with the resistance and were aware of many of the piraka's abilities. It still took multiple toa to subdue reidak who was guarding the entrance, and when they attacked the rest of the piraka, the fight was pretty even. Even though the Piraka were just as busy fighting each other in that battle, as they were fighting the toa. I think even without brutaka's intervention the toa would have gone down in that fight. The inika on the other hand, had the advantage in most of their fights, but unforseeable circumstance prevented them from actually winning any of their battles. They were beating a team of 6 piraka and brutaka by themselves in their first battle. If the toa inika were to square off against the piraka in a battle with no interference of any sort, the inika would easily win. What the toa nuva demonstrated was that even when they knew about the enemy they were fighting the could barely hold their own against 5 of the team, who were preoccupied with fighting each other.

 

 

Mind you, when the Toa attacked Reidak, they were without their masks. Furthermore, Reidak is capable of adapting to the attacks of others, so he may have been more formidable as a result. I cannot remember all the exact details of Dark Destiny. Though I do recall that Reidak was subdued fairly easily in that instance. And as for their second confrontation with the Piraka, the Toa Nuva never had the chance to do much fighting then. If I recall, the sequence of events was something like this: The Toa Nuva and the Matoran Resistance burst into the chamber where the Piraka are fighting. Tahu Nuva: "It seems that you're trying to kill each other. Allow us to oblige." At which point Brutaka fells all of the Toa Nuva and the Matoran with one blow. In fact, prior to that, the Toa Nuva were actually rather powerful for Toa without masks, if I recall correctly.

 

As for how well the Inika fared against the Piraka: In the battle in the Piraka stronghold Jaller was able to match Hakann, but he had a Calix (a Mask of Fate,) allowing him to dodge Hakann's attacks. Kongu was almost suffocated by a prison of Avak's making, but was able to overwhelm Avak's mind with his Kanohi Suletu. Zaktan attempted to defeat Nuparu by swarming him with protodites, a method he used successfully against Tahu. However, Nuparu used his Kanohi Jutlin to drag Zaktan's mass along with him all the way to the sea, knocking the him unconscious. Hahli managed to overcome Thok's spellbinder vision by hitting him with her Laser Crossbow, but would have been frozen had Matoro not intervened. Hewkii managed to trap Brutaka in the ground, by catching him off his guard.

As far as I can tell, these are all the confrontations in that battle that have been recorded in one way or another. So while the Inika did have the upper hand prior to Brutaka's power being stolen, the only one of them to gain an advantage using elemental powers was Hewkii. What if Zaktan had fought Hahli? What if Avak had fought Jaller? The outcome of those fights might have been different. But I digress. The Toa Inika did not demonstrate superior elemental energies to the those of the Toa Nuva in that particular battle. In the next battle they were allied with Zaktan, Avak, Reidak, and Vezok. The next battle they lost after it had barely begun when Kongu accidentally caused the bridge of land they were standing on to collapse. Their next encounter with the Inika involved no fighting, as the Inika began to fly away from the Chamber of Life, causing both groups to pursue it. Their final confrontation with the Inika/Mahri would have seen the deaths of the Toa had it not been for Axonn. I see no way to compare their elemental powers to those of the Toa Nuva based on what we've seen.

 

Pardon the wall of text.

Edited April 20, 2014 by Quisoves Pugnat

[TERIDAX941]

Mind you, when the Toa attacked Reidak, they were without their masks. Furthermore, Reidak is capable of adapting to the attacks of others, so he may have been more formidable as a result. I cannot remember all the exact details of Dark Destiny. Though I do recall that Reidak was subdued fairly easily in that instance. And as for their second confrontation with the Piraka, the Toa Nuva never had the chance to do much fighting then. If I recall, the sequence of events was something like this: The Toa Nuva and the Matoran Resistance burst into the chamber where the Piraka are fighting. Tahu Nuva: "It seems that you're trying to kill each other. Allow us to oblige." At which point Brutaka fells all of the Toa Nuva and the Matoran with one blow. In fact, prior to that, the Toa Nuva were actually rather powerful for Toa without masks, if I recall correctly.

Well you are correct that the Toa were without their masks, but how it went was Lewa tricked Reidak into breaking down the stronghold door, so they could get in. Reidak wasn't about to face all six toa, and all six matoran all by himself so once the door was down he was headed to Zaktan to collect Zamor to use on the Toa. When the Toa finally burst in on the Piraka, Avak was semi-concious, since Reidak had unintentionally freed Zaktan from the prison he made, and Thok and Hakann were trying to make the best of the situation, which left Zaktan. Well, the other Piraka figured to leave Zaktan alone to fight the Nuva, after which, Zaktan pleaded with Brutaka to take care of the problem for him, because there was no way Zaktan could defeat all of the Toa. So there really wasn't much confrontation.

[Matoro Lives]

So I asked Greg Farshtey on the Chat with Greg page on the lego message boards, about what made the Toa Nuva more powerful, and this was his response:

 

"As I recall, the Nuva had better armor, greater control of their elemental powers, and were capable of sharing the power of their masks with those nearby. That is what made them more powerful."

 

He stated that they didn't have greater EE power, but rather they had greater control over their powers (increased stamina, more advanced attacks, etc). They are the same power level as other teams, but they can do more with their abilities than other teams. This explanation makes a little more sense than the "increased EE power level" statement. It also adds a bit more consistancy to the story, and makes the idea that a novice team did what they couldn't a bit more acceptable. Nuva powers don't increase power, they increase the number of things you can do with those powers. Along with the other more minor upgrades mentioned above, this is what made them elite among other toa. You could consider at least the inika and the hagah elites as well, due to the bonus enhancements and abilities they possessed.

Edited April 25, 2014 by Matoro_Lives