Other Skakdi vs. the Piraka

[Dorkpool]

There's something that I thought was weird: When the Toa Nuva originally fought the Piraka, they got their butts handed to them. However, after they left the Mata Nui robot, they fought quite a few Skakdi. In fact, Tahu (in his Toa Mata form) was able to defeat Nektann, a Skakdi warlord.

How does that happen?

[LewaLew]

Usually, it's been attributed to the fact that they were unfamiliar with Skakdi at that point, and particularly unfamiliar with the Piraka. The Piraka also seem to be a little above the average Skakdi in terms of skill, since they were all former Dark Hunters.

[V-N]

And I wouldn't say the Toa Nuva were completely overwhelmed. They had the Piraka on their heels, several of them fearing for their lives at one point. Obviously though, the Piraka used their heads and regrouped, and the Nuva inevitably lost to the Piraka's tactical thinking. It shows the the Nuva had the power to defeat Skakdi. They just didn't have the wit to put it to strategic use.

[Quisoves Potoo]

According to BS01: "The six thieves took advantage of the Toa Nuva's ignorance of their powers to quickly defeat them in open combat." Since Island of Doom is one of the few Bionicle books I have not read, I cannot comment on the veracity of the statement, but that makes sense to me. Some Skakdi powers are quite unusual.

It also occurs to me that the Kanohi Ignika may have been manipulating events in the Pirakas' favor. After all, if each one of the Toa Nuva was integral to reawakening Mata Nui, then surely none of them could have been a bearer of the Ignika. The Ignika would undoubtedly know this, and might well manipulate the Toa Nuva's downfall so as to prompt the arrival of other, more expendable, heroes.

Edited April 5, 2014 by Quisoves Pugnat

[ALVIS]

Perhaps most Skakdi never really learn how to control their powers, and the Piraka were only so deadly because the Dark Hunters trained them?

 

I find it simpler to think that most Skakdi just don't have those powers, and the Piraka gained them through Dark Hunter experimentation. But since the canon disagrees with me, I guess we've got to come up with more elaborate justifications.

[Biff]

The Nuva were used to fighting Rahi, Bohrok, and Rhakshi at this point. They weren't prepared to run into cold-hearted mercenaries with some of the most exotic and powerful abilities we've ever seen in the story. Since they weren't at all prepared the the Piraka, the Nuva got their butts wooped.

During the Final Battle, they were seasoned by Piraka and Makuta and now stood a strong chance against the army. Also, the army didn't have the dark-hunter training of the Piraka.

[Pomegranate]

In addition to all the above explanations, a bunch of the Piraka had unique powers they acquired through the Dark Hunters- Zaktan only defeated Tahu by swarming him as a cloud of protodites, which TSO did to him through unknown means, and Avak was only able to defeat Kopaka by creating the perfect cage for him, which is a power he got through whatever the BoM did to him on TSO's request. You can also consider that the Piraka were particularly deranged and power hungry, and simply had sheer force of will, arrogance, and the inability to quit on their side.

[TERIDAX941]

In addition to all the above explanations, a bunch of the Piraka had unique powers they acquired through the Dark Hunters- Zaktan only defeated Tahu by swarming him as a cloud of protodites, which TSO did to him through unknown means, and Avak was only able to defeat Kopaka by creating the perfect cage for him, which is a power he got through whatever the BoM did to him on TSO's request. You can also consider that the Piraka were particularly deranged and power hungry, and simply had sheer force of will, arrogance, and the inability to quit on their side.

Actually that was confirmed as false, about Avak's powers, he was lying to Kopaka. He got those powers from Spiriah, just like almost all the Skakdi.

 

Also, I found this interesting, but during the Final Battle, Nektann never used any of his powers to fight Tahu with. We never found out what his vision power was, nor his other ability. All we know about him is that he was a water element Skakdi. But I still think he should've put up a better fight, he was a warlord for crying out loud.

[Pomegranate]

Iron_Man5: Oh, my bad, I didn't know that! It really is disappointing about Nektann, I agree. I don't like wasted opportunities for battles which could've been much more exciting and shown us a lot more than they did.

[bonesiii]

I've only skimmed previous replies so pardon if this is too repetitive but three main points come to mind:

 

1) Nothing wrong with asking how it happened but I just wanna check that you're not falling for the "power levels" fallacy that is so common when these kinds of questions come up; as if battles are won by which person ranks higher on a totally linear scale of "battle power". Actually they are won based on the incredibly complicated (practically anti-linear) physics of the specific situations they're in, even the moods they're in (Nektann could have just been having a bad day, possibly due to the pressure of entering a totally unfamiliar environment and knowing it's the final battle).

 

2) Nektann wasn't actually trained by Dark Hunters. His experience was fighting other Skakdi, and that's about it. He even invented those famous robots with the idea of letting them handle his fighting for him to some extent. He seems more like a charismatic leader than an actual fighter.

 

3) Tahu beat Nektann after the experience of the defeat by the Piraka and several other things, so we would expect him to do better even if put into an identical situation. This experience included more variety of situations so he was more adaptable by that time than Nektann. Plus, he may have been remembering more of his training with Hydraxon long ago, as I believe it was stated in 2008 that he had recalled what had been forgotten in the canister. (It's less that Nektann isn't a fighter, and more that Tahu is a better one, but the Piraka may also be better than Nektann too.)

 

There's also the matter of the Piraka being picked for that specific task by Makuta, who knew the Toa Nuva's strengths and weaknesses well enough by that time, and that the Toa Inika were needed for that island's challenges for this basic reason and others. On Bara Magna, Nektann was not likely chosen for being a good match against Tahu; the Toa of Fire probably wasn't even supposed to escape the MU in Makuta's plans.

 

I also wondered as I was typing the above what the exact timing of this is in relation to the giant robot trying to turn the whole planet into a black hole and whether Nektann might have noticed. Probably he wouldn't have, but yeah. If by slight chance he did, his motivation to help Makuta win would have just plummeted. Also wondering if this was after Makuta's defeat anyways... *consults BS01...* Well, it makes it sound like Teridax was charging up his gravity attack (visibly in his hand) at the time. Question would be if the communication between the two robots was audible to the people on the ground so that Nektann would know what that was about. But it's not necessary to understand how Tahu beat him. Basically, whatever power he had probably weren't a good match against Tahu, and Tahu used fire to weaken him to the point that he could be defeated.

Edited April 6, 2014 by bonesiii

[fishers64]

“I’ll crush you!” bellowed Nektann.

Tahu barely blocked the Skakdi’s blow with his sword. He had spotted Nektann in the midst of the battle, hanging onto a piece of golden armor. At least three Toa and a dozen Matoran and Agori lay dead around him. A wave of heat had driven the other Skakdi and Rahkshi away from his side, but Nektann hadn’t fallen. Instead, he seemed to actually welcome Tahu’s attack. “Go ahead, Toa,” the Skakdi taunted. “Use your flame power. Use your mask. You ‘heroes’ can’t win a battle with just your strength and your wits, right?”

Tahu gave a grim smile as he bored in on the Skakdi. Enemies had done this to him before – try to strike at his pride, make him sloppy, try to get him to make mistakes. But it hadn’t been so long ago that Tahu had fought others of Nektann’s kind and suffered a bitter defeat. If it hadn’t been for a brave group of Matoran villagers, he would have died. The experience made him take a hard look at himself. Nektann was about to regret that.

 

“This is the part where I’m supposed to say, ‘I don’t need my power to deal with you,’ right?” said Tahu. “I take it as a challenge. Can I outfight you?”

 

“You can’t, and you know it,” growled Nektann. “That’s why you have to cheat.”

Tahu triggered his elemental power, heating up his sword to several thousand degrees. His next blow melted right through the Skakdi’s weapon, cutting it in half.

It seems that Nektann was overconfident and that led to his downfall. He might have been used to fighting beings with big egos whose taunting he could stoke and make sloppy. The fact that Tahu doesn't have that ego leads to his downfall.

 

Note that in Tahu's battle with Zaktan he actually "comes back" to all of Zaktan's statements. Here he doesn't give in, just stomps over Nektann and moves on without falling for the bait.

[Pomegranate]

It seems that Nektann was overconfident and that led to his downfall. He might have been used to fighting beings with big egos whose taunting he could stoke and make sloppy. The fact that Tahu doesn't have that ego leads to his downfall.

 

Note that in Tahu's battle with Zaktan he actually "comes back" to all of Zaktan's statements. Here he doesn't give in, just stomps over Nektann and moves on without falling for the bait.

 

That is true, in his fight with Zaktan he was really steamed after seeing what was happening to Kopaka and Gali and the rest, and then then Zaktan taunted him about using his Hau and staying on the defensive. I see your point.

[TERIDAX941]

 

It seems that Nektann was overconfident and that led to his downfall. He might have been used to fighting beings with big egos whose taunting he could stoke and make sloppy. The fact that Tahu doesn't have that ego leads to his downfall.

 

Note that in Tahu's battle with Zaktan he actually "comes back" to all of Zaktan's statements. Here he doesn't give in, just stomps over Nektann and moves on without falling for the bait.

 

That is true, in his fight with Zaktan he was really steamed after seeing what was happening to Kopaka and Gali and the rest, and then then Zaktan taunted him about using his Hau and staying on the defensive. I see your point.

 

Yeah exactly. I always loved that fight, because Zaktan was my favorite of the Piraka, and Tahu was my favorite Toa by far, so it's like "Oh my gosh, this is so epic!!" But yeah... I digress lol

[Wazdakka]

... I'm surprised nobody has observed the phenomenon of plot armor.

[bonesiii]

... I'm surprised nobody has observed the phenomenon of plot armor.

That's nothing but a copout, and implies the fallacy of "battle winning power level" I mentioned earlier.

 

Unless you don't mean to actually say it's the case per se here but just put it on the table as a possibility. And unless we're talking about Star Trek lol. Bionicle has done "plot armor" things before, unfortunately, but in the main it actually tries not to, and it would be unfair to just assume it, simply because a good guy does win. It really depends on the medium. In the Hordika animations, clearly there is plot armor, sadly (perhaps better called main character invincibility). But in most other sources there is not. This is because different people were in charge of different sources.

Edited April 6, 2014 by bonesiii

[believe victims]

Nektann was defeated, as mentioned above, through tactical thinking on Tahu's part, taking advantage of Nektann's overconfidence.

 

As for the other Skakdi, the ones in an army, it's a common trope in fiction that an army of powerful beings is underwhelming. The Skrall, one of which could take down even an experienced Glatorian, yet Mata Nui and a couple friends start whacking them aside like cardboard cutouts on RC cars? Same principle. It's not really something that can be explained by canon without logic being twisted. It's just something that writers do because otherwise, battles against hordes would be anticlimactic with the ending of "then they had their butts handed to them because, realistically, they could not win at all."

[bonesiii]

it's a common trope in fiction that an army of powerful beings is underwhelming. The Skrall, one of which could take down even an experienced Glatorian, yet Mata Nui and a couple friends start whacking them aside like cardboard cutouts on RC cars? Same principle. It's not really something that can be explained by canon without logic being twisted.

It's almost always a mistake to say that something cannot be explained; only say that you haven't yet thought of how.

 

The Skrall who were sent to gladiator fights would be among their best, and the Glatorian fighting them had to play by the rules then. There are some things that are evidently considered "cheating" in arena matches by Glatorian (though offhand I'm not sure exactly what that would be), that in a wartime situation would not be. It is very possible for experienced Glatorian to be able to defeat your average Skrall. And it certainly makes sense for the wearer/puppet-body of the Mask of Life.

 

In fact, in the first comic, in a match, a Skrall is about to break arena rules and kill Gresh, but Tarix steps in and the Skrall is forced to leave. Skrall aren't invincible either. Tarix hasn't won a match against a Skrall, but the one that was chosen to fight Gresh may not have been a match for Tarix, and so forth.

 

BS01 at least also states that several Glatorian died in that battle, at least by Nektann's hand.

 

It would be more accurate to say, in general, that those who assume the trope of "less powerful in large numbers" are the ones who are just coming up with that. There's some truth to it, but many who like to invoke that trope seem far too eager to do so, and will ignore what authors actually do to make battles realistically winnable in order to allege the trope. This is not wise.

Edited April 6, 2014 by bonesiii

[fishers64]

As for the other Skakdi, the ones in an army, it's a common trope in fiction that an army of powerful beings is underwhelming. The Skrall, one of which could take down even an experienced Glatorian, yet Mata Nui and a couple friends start whacking them aside like cardboard cutouts on RC cars?

May I point out that all of those friends had elemental powers, which never came into the picture in the Arena matches? Also Mata Nui has the power of Life itself on his side - not even Skrall could stand against that for long.

[Dorkpool]

 

As for the other Skakdi, the ones in an army, it's a common trope in fiction that an army of powerful beings is underwhelming. The Skrall, one of which could take down even an experienced Glatorian, yet Mata Nui and a couple friends start whacking them aside like cardboard cutouts on RC cars?

May I point out that all of those friends had elemental powers, which never came into the picture in the Arena matches? Also Mata Nui has the power of Life itself on his side - not even Skrall could stand against that for long.

 

Wait, weren't there other, non-elemental Glatorian in that battle?

[TERIDAX941]

 

 

As for the other Skakdi, the ones in an army, it's a common trope in fiction that an army of powerful beings is underwhelming. The Skrall, one of which could take down even an experienced Glatorian, yet Mata Nui and a couple friends start whacking them aside like cardboard cutouts on RC cars?

May I point out that all of those friends had elemental powers, which never came into the picture in the Arena matches? Also Mata Nui has the power of Life itself on his side - not even Skrall could stand against that for long.

 

Wait, weren't there other, non-elemental Glatorian in that battle?

 

Possibly, such as Gelu and Strakk, there's no record of Mata Nui giving them powers (sorry ice tribe, but apparently you guys aren't trusted with those) But I'm sure Mata Nui didn't have time to give everyone powers, just the select few.

[JAG18]

Nameless Glatorian, without elemental powers, did fight in the Battle of Roxtus. I believe the in-story reason for Mata Nui not giving other Glatorian elemental powers, was that he never met them and as such had no opportunity.

 

I believe the point fishers was trying to make, was that some Glatorian had elemental powers and that tipped the scale in their side's favor.

[fishers64]

I'm thinking of the battle at the end of TLR. In any event, I agree with JAG18's point, even if there were nameless Glatorian involved.

 

Also, I'm thinking that in both battles, the Glatorian had the element of surprise on their side. The enemy didn't expect Tuma to lose, the Glatorian to have elemental powers, or the Golden Armor to appear.

Edited April 7, 2014 by fishers64

[JAG18]

Aren't the Battle of Roxtus and the battle at the end of TLR the same?

 

In any case, it's also good to remember that the Skrall were still shaken up by the Scarabax monster (which tricked them into believing that the Baterra had arrived).

Edited April 7, 2014 by JAG18

[MrSciFiGuy]

I believe the Toa Nuva lost to the Piraka primarily due to their lack of knowledge of that race, and also their possible pride of being Toa Nuva

[Wazdakka]

 

... I'm surprised nobody has observed the phenomenon of plot armor.

That's nothing but a copout, and implies the fallacy of "battle winning power level" I mentioned earlier.

 

Unless you don't mean to actually say it's the case per se here but just put it on the table as a possibility. And unless we're talking about Star Trek lol. Bionicle has done "plot armor" things before, unfortunately, but in the main it actually tries not to, and it would be unfair to just assume it, simply because a good guy does win. It really depends on the medium. In the Hordika animations, clearly there is plot armor, sadly (perhaps better called main character invincibility). But in most other sources there is not. This is because different people were in charge of different sources.

 

 

Well, what I mean to say is probably not best described as plot armor, but whatever. I mean that in order to make the Piraka look powerful and make kids want them as they are hitting shelves, they had to act out the part in the comics - what better way to do so by trouncing the most powerful heroes we've been introduced to so far? However, in the EPIC FINAL BATTLE!!1!!1!!, they needed to make the heroes and villains look strong and wantable, as well as a nice clean ending to the story. Here's the alternate excerpt:

 

“I’ll crush you!” bellowed Nektann.

Tahu barely blocked the Skakdi’s blow with his sword. He had spotted Nektann in the midst of the battle, hanging onto a piece of golden armor. At least three Toa and a dozen Matoran and Agori lay dead around him. A wave of heat had driven the other Skakdi and Rahkshi away from his side, but Nektann hadn’t fallen. Instead, he seemed to actually welcome Tahu’s attack. “Go ahead, Toa,” the Skakdi taunted. “Use your flame power. Use your mask. You ‘heroes’ can’t win a battle with just your strength and your wits, right?”

Tahu gave a grim smile as he bored in on the Skakdi. Enemies had done this to him before – try to strike at his pride, make him sloppy, try to get him to make mistakes. But it hadn’t been so long ago that Tahu had fought others of Nektann’s kind and suffered a bitter defeat. If it hadn’t been for a brave group of Matoran villagers, he would have died. The experience made him take a hard look at himself. Nektann was about to regret that.

 

“This is the part where I’m supposed to say, ‘I don’t need my power to deal with you,’ right?” said Tahu. “I take it as a challenge. Can I outfight you?”

 

“You can’t, and you know it,” growled Nektann. “That’s why you have to cheat.”

Tahu triggered his elemental power, heating up his sword to several thousand degrees. The warlord dodged Tahu's swing using reflexes honed by centuries of war and infighting, before whipping around his own wickedly sharp weapon to take off the Toa's head.

That wouldn't be so nice, no?