Makuta Teridax.

[halowwe]

well iv been wondering about this but when aqua nui hit teridax from behind the head. why dident makuta just leave the body and revert to his gas form. antidermis. if he could have lived.

[JAG18]

Put simply, because he didn't know it was coming until it was too late. Makuta could have escaped the robot before being hit, but he was too distracted at the time to be paying attention to where planetary fragments were flying.

[fishers64]

According to Journey's End, he was distracted by the deaths of his Rahkshi.

What none of the fighters on the ground realized was that they already had done more thanthey realized. Each kraata was bound to its creator in some way, in this case, Makuta. While he did not feel their pain, he could sense their deaths, and the loss of so many at once made him hesitate for just a moment. For that instant, Makuta was paying no attention to the world around him … or the sky above him.

Mata Nui saw it coming. It was why he had forced Makuta to this northern edge of Bara Magna. His last gambit was about to pay off, and by a miracle, he was going to live to see it.

Also the collision burned his antidermis alive. Hard to escape if you're on fire.

[Azani]

Also the collision burned his antidermis alive. Hard to escape if you're on fire.

It wouldn't have been possible for the collision to burn antidermis all through the robot, though, would it? Was the entirety of Teridax's antidermis concentrated in a location in the head of the GSR?

Edited April 8, 2014 by Artakha's Nephew

[ALVIS]

Yes, that's the assumption that makes the most sense. It was inhabiting the machines in the Core Processor; that's where the robot's brain and spirit were located.

[Katuko]

It wouldn't have been possible for the collision to burn antidermis all through the robot, though, wouldn't it. Would the entirety of Teridax's antidermis have been concentrated in a location in the head of the GSR?

You'd be amazed at how much force, friction heat and pressure a moon can cause when it impacts a giant metal structure. In any case, the comic gives off the impression that the moon fragment tore straight through the robot's head, and left a smoking hole. It's like an artillery shell hitting a tin can, really; and even if Teridax managed to register it before it was too late, I have a feeling he'd be unwilling to retreat from such a position of power after "just" getting it.

[bonesiii]

Also the collision burned his antidermis alive. Hard to escape if you're on fire.

It wouldn't have been possible for the collision to burn antidermis all through the robot, though, wouldn't it. Would the entirety of Teridax's antidermis have been concentrated in a location in the head of the GSR?

If it wasn't, he would be dead already; spreading their antidermis out too much is just another way of saying the cloud dissipates, which it slowly does when antidermis clouds are loose, which in turn was stated to be their primary weakness -- that's why they need to inhabit some kind of body most of the time, to contain it.

 

In fact, rapid spreading out of his antidermis is the primary effect of the impact that killed him; the impact heat did not even need to be enough to actually burn him, though it likely was. There's also the idea that since his mind was "downloaded" into the Core Processor, which was destroyed, even if antidermis was left in a cloud, it would have no mind, and quickly dissipate on its own, unable to move to a container.

[Azani]

 

 

Also the collision burned his antidermis alive. Hard to escape if you're on fire.

It wouldn't have been possible for the collision to burn antidermis all through the robot, though, wouldn't it. Would the entirety of Teridax's antidermis have been concentrated in a location in the head of the GSR?

 

If it wasn't, he would be dead already; spreading their antidermis out too much is just another way of saying the cloud dissipates, which it slowly does when antidermis clouds are loose, which in turn was stated to be their primary weakness -- that's why they need to inhabit some kind of body most of the time, to contain it.

 

In fact, rapid spreading out of his antidermis is the primary effect of the impact that killed him; the impact heat did not even need to be enough to actually burn him, though it likely was. There's also the idea that since his mind was "downloaded" into the Core Processor, which was destroyed, even if antidermis was left in a cloud, it would have no mind, and quickly dissipate on its own, unable to move to a container.

 

I was under the impression that "translating" his consciousness into the core processer freed Teridax's essence from the negative effects of dissipating, because his consciousness would have remained intact and working in there even if his antidermis was lost. Was his "brain" in the core processer still made up of antidermis, along with the rest of him?

Edited April 8, 2014 by Artakha's Nephew

[bonesiii]

I was under the impression that "translating" his consciousness into the core processer freed Teridax's essence from the negative effects of dissipating, because heis consciousness would have remained intact and working in there even if his antidermis was lost.

It's not 100% certain but I have heard that too (because he had basically absolute power once in there, so he could just use that to hold antidermis together, or possibly downloaded his entire consciousness into the system), but the point is that the crash destroyed the Core Processor, negating that power. The spreading out becomes relevant then (as well as the burning -- and if he did download his mind, then either it was destroyed instantly, or reverted back to the antidermis that was destroyed both by burning and spreading out -- point is, no matter how you slice it, he's dead, Jim).

[fishers64]

Was his "brain" in the core processer still made up of antidermis, along with the rest of him?

I would think that he "spirit" (ie mental patterns) would be downloaded. But smashing it would destroy the patterns, much like smashing Jaller's Hau would likely release his spirit from it. If it tried to go back to any antidermis nearby or in the Core processor, like Mata Nui's spirit was drawn back to the Ignika, the antidermis would be burned up.

 

That is, if the antidermis didn't dissipate when Teridax's mind left it. I think it would have to...given how Mata Nui's spirit was after it was evicted. It's still possible that the Core Processor could be controlled be antidermis given Teridax's destiny, but why bother with that when the mind-download method works?

[TERIDAX941]

I think of it as when Teridax "possessed" Maxilos. Basically he had Maxilos' abilities (which weren't that much, though he still had a bunch of his own powers) he kinda "downloaded" his mind into the robot. But his Antidermis was still inside the machine, which was stated when Matoro froze him, and he risked his essence being frozen solid (resulting in killing him). I think he did the same thing with the Core Processor, just letting his essence flow into the machine and therefore letting him control it that way, just like any other robot. Albeit this robot had much greater abilities, but I think it's the same concept.

[bohrokmaster]

This discussion sounds very interesting. and what of Mata Nui's mind and spirit? Was his spirit/concousness already inside the core processor when he was in control of the Robot?

Edited April 10, 2014 by bohrokmaster

[JAG18]

According to BS01, the Core Processor was designed to house Mata Nui's spirit; so, the answer would be yes.

[Pohatu: Uniter of Stone]

I thought his mind and spirit were trapped inside the mask of life when Teridax took over. One more question: is Mata Nui an A.I. or a sentient life-form?

[JAG18]

You are correct, but for the 100,000 years before that Mata Nui's spirit was in the Core Processor.

 

Now, the second question is a bit more tricky. Mata Nui is a mechanical robot with a spirit given to him by the Great Beings; I suppose that means you could call him A.I., but I'm not entirely sure what you mean exactly by using those two words (A.I. and sentient life-form).

[CaT in Rogue]

You are correct, but for the 100,000 years before that Mata Nui's spirit was in the Core Processor.

 

Now, the second question is a bit more tricky. Mata Nui is a mechanical robot with a spirit given to him by the Great Beings; I suppose that means you could call him A.I., but I'm not entirely sure what you mean exactly by using those two words (A.I. and sentient life-form).

Sentient life-form would be basically referring to something similar to a human, Toa, Great Being, etc. A being with highly advanced intelligence transcending the normal instinctual behavior patterns of an animal. It's sort of confusing as to where the line would be drawn, but it's an important distinction nonetheless.

 

An AI is an advanced program that can observe stimuli and react accordingly. At it's most basic, you could show an AI the letter T and it would respond with a programmed response, where at it's most advanced, an AI could observe and learn from it's environment, make choices in regard to any situation, and evolve it's own logic accordingly.

 

Now, given this description, any sufficiently advanced AI could technically qualify as a sentient life-form. It would have to be incredibly, incredibly advanced, but given what the Great Beings have built in the past, it's definitely believable.

 

What I find astounding is that the Great Beings built a planet-sized robot, gave it advanced programming that basically amounted to a soul, equipped it with the abilities to restore their broken world, and yet somehow it never occurred to them that hey, we should probably set up a backup Core Processor somewhere in case something goes horribly, horribly wrong.

 

Maybe they just ran out of time or something, but considering their other goof-ups, I really find myself questioning their common sense.

[fishers64]

What I find astounding is that the Great Beings built a planet-sized robot, gave it advanced programming that basically amounted to a soul, equipped it with the abilities to restore their broken world, and yet somehow it never occurred to them that hey, we should probably set up a backup Core Processor somewhere in case something goes horribly, horribly wrong.

 

Maybe they just ran out of time or something, but considering their other goof-ups, I really find myself questioning their common sense.

 

The Core Processor was supposed to be a secret. How would they have room to hide two?

[CaT in Rogue]

 

What I find astounding is that the Great Beings built a planet-sized robot, gave it advanced programming that basically amounted to a soul, equipped it with the abilities to restore their broken world, and yet somehow it never occurred to them that hey, we should probably set up a backup Core Processor somewhere in case something goes horribly, horribly wrong.

 

Maybe they just ran out of time or something, but considering their other goof-ups, I really find myself questioning their common sense.

 

The Core Processor was supposed to be a secret. How would they have room to hide two?

If you make something the size of a planet, I'm naturally going to assume you have the resources to build two of something and keep it a secret.

 

Heck, even if there wasn't room to hide it, they could have just used the same shielding technology they used on the Codrex. It was made pretty clear that not even the average Makuta could open it without the keystones. Granted, Krika managed to overload it, but I doubt the Great Beings could have predicted his mutation, especially given the already SNAFU'd conditions.

[Pomegranate]

Even if there was a backup Core Processor, it could have easily been totally wrecked in the Great Cataclysm and become irrelevant to the story from then on. And even if there were a backup, how would it work? Would the spirit of Mata Nui or Teridax just get automatically transferred there? Or would it just start running with a copy of that same AI if we're going with the idea that it's basically just AI? 'Cause both present a whole lot of problems.

[fishers64]

Even if there was a backup Core Processor, it could have easily been totally wrecked in the Great Cataclysm and become irrelevant to the story from then on. And even if there were a backup, how would it work? Would the spirit of Mata Nui or Teridax just get automatically transferred there? Or would it just start running with a copy of that same AI if we're going with the idea that it's basically just AI? 'Cause both present a whole lot of problems.

In theory the spirit could be transferred in the same way that Mata Nui's spirit was transferred into the Ignika and ejected from the robot.

[Pomegranate]

 

Even if there was a backup Core Processor, it could have easily been totally wrecked in the Great Cataclysm and become irrelevant to the story from then on. And even if there were a backup, how would it work? Would the spirit of Mata Nui or Teridax just get automatically transferred there? Or would it just start running with a copy of that same AI if we're going with the idea that it's basically just AI? 'Cause both present a whole lot of problems.

In theory the spirit could be transferred in the same way that Mata Nui's spirit was transferred into the Ignika and ejected from the robot.

 

Oh shoot, I'd forgotten all about that. Well, maybe the Ignika was the backup processor after all?

[bonesiii]

One more question: is Mata Nui an A.I. or a sentient life-form?

That's actually two questions, because those two things are not at all mutually exclusive:

 

1) He's artificial, and he's intelligent, therefore yes, he is an AI. (That's all the term means, after all.)

 

2) He is "sentient", yes, but you are probably falling for a common misconception that this is the term for human-level intelligence; sapient simply means having sensory awareness (sometimes defined as self-awareness), which as Greg has pointed out is true of many animals. The term you're looking for is "sapient" (wise, as in human-level wisdom). Sentient is often used in sci-fi lingo as a standin for sapient... for some reason... but Bionicle officially uses sapient. Note that sapience and sentience both have nothing to do with whether the intelligence you have is natural versus artificial.

 

 

You are correct, but for the 100,000 years before that Mata Nui's spirit was in the Core Processor.

 

Now, the second question is a bit more tricky. Mata Nui is a mechanical robot with a spirit given to him by the Great Beings; I suppose that means you could call him A.I., but I'm not entirely sure what you mean exactly by using those two words (A.I. and sentient life-form).

Sentient life-form would be basically referring to something similar to a human, Toa, Great Being, etc.

 

No; see above clarification. Though that is probably what RT meant (but his use of the wrong term might be part of why Jag was unsure what he meant).

 

 

What I find astounding is that the Great Beings built a planet-sized robot, gave it advanced programming that basically amounted to a soul, equipped it with the abilities to restore their broken world, and yet somehow it never occurred to them that hey, we should probably set up a backup Core Processor somewhere in case something goes horribly, horribly wrong.

You're right, it IS odd, because in most of the rest of the story they are portrayed as practically being obsessed with contigency systems. Red Star (both the revival system and the Toa-izing beam), Marendar, etc. Odd as well that I don't recall anybody bringing this up before.

 

My guess would be the system is too complex for a backup to work, unlike Matoran minds/spirits. On the other hand, the Ignika was kind of the backup system (that's a yes to Pomegranate's latest post), but it seems to have required somebody else being in charge of the MU to enact it.

 

We should keep in mind that Teridax was always supposed to take over; probably they intended somebody to inform him, in the event a backup was needed, and he would temporarily take over, put Mata Nui in the Ignika, fix whatever needed fixing, and then relinquish command again until enough research had been done for the Reforming. It also might have enough contingency repair systems normally so that a second backup system was not necessary and they didn't foresee Teridax's virus.

 

And/or, that very virus might have begun by attacking conduits TO other backup systems?

[Quisoves Potoo]

 

You're right, it IS odd, because in most of the rest of the story they are portrayed as practically being obsessed with contigency systems. Red Star (both the revival system and the Toa-izing beam), Marendar, etc. Odd as well that I don't recall anybody bringing this up before.

 

I believe that the Great Beings did have a contingency plan for the Core Processor failing. They placed two Glatorians in suspended animation, to be awakened to pilot the Great Spirit should the Processor fail. However, said pilots were killed in the Great Cataclysm, suggesting that the Great Beings were quite confident that Mata Nui would not crash into a celestial body. However, the full sapience of the Great Spirit's inhabitants was not taken into account.

[bonesiii]

Right; I wasn't saying they didn't have contingencies for it, but apparently they didn't have the kind of contingency Kung Fu Pyro was talking about. Which is still a little odd.

 

 

And oh... I didn't realize it was the GC that killed those pilots. I had it be something else in my version. Whoops. Oh well... Too integrated to change now... *goes off to add a note about non-canon-ness...*

[Quisoves Potoo]

Right; I wasn't saying they didn't have contingencies for it, but apparently they didn't have the kind of contingency Kung Fu Pyro was talking about. Which is still a little odd.

What I should have added is that, it seems to me, the use of the pilots suggests that the Great Beings did not want to build an auxiliary core-processor. Why they did not want to do so is, as you said, odd given what we know. They did, plan, after all, to build a second robot of Mata Nui's type. My best guess, given what I know, is that they considered the situation too urgent for them to take the time to build the extra core processor. On a side note, why was it so imperative that Mata Nui control the second robot? Why did the Great Beings not plan to create another intelligence to pilot it?

[bonesiii]

What I should have added is that, it seems to me, the use of the pilots suggests that the Great Beings did not want to build an auxiliary core-processor.

Ah.

 

Why they did not want to do so is, as you said, odd given what we know. They did, plan, after all, to build a second robot of Mata Nui's type. My best guess, given what I know, is that they considered the situation too urgent for them to take the time to build the extra core processor.

Possible, if the making of the first was such a complex task that it took up all the available time of the GBs who specialized in that job. Other GBs who lacked those specific skills could have had plenty of time to make many contingencies for other systems. Given the primary importance of Mata Nui to the MU, that does make sense. They might have thought it wiser to spend every available second making sure his AI was ideal rather than make a backup system for what might be a too-easily corruptible AI.

 

On a side note, why was it so imperative that Mata Nui control the second robot? Why did the Great Beings not plan to create another intelligence to pilot it?

That one's easy; Mata Nui would have lots of practice controlling a giant robot so he could more easily adapt quickly to a new one, and he could leave behind instructions for Teridax (in the original plan where Terry is a good guy); tips for how to control the main one. This would be better both than putting Teridax in the new one (nobody could give him tips ideal for it) and than making a new AI for that (who wouldn't be sent on the mission Mata Nui was, so wouldn't get much experience).