MU Natives relation to Mata Nui

[Mr. Lightning Bolt]

I'd like to get this straight for myself once and for all.
It could be said that the inhabitants of the Matoran Universe would be like nanomachines to Mata Nui in his full giant robot glory, right? Or at the least, cells like in our own bodies.

So bear with me.

The matoran do the work inside the body, maintaining energy, building things, repairing things. Right? Could it be that the Chute system is like a circulatory system?

Now, the Toa are to be protectors of the matoran. one facet of the immune system. And since the Makuta are actually antidermis viruses in armor, it'd make sense they'd be at odds.

The Vahki keep order going in Metru Nui. They also mess with whoever doesn't do their duty. That status and behaviour looks to me like an autoimmune disease.

 

I'm just rambling. I know the story, I know Mata Nui's a giant robot, I grew up with this stuff. I'm just trying to balance it out in my head, to look at the big picture. Care to help me iron it out with the body "metaphor"?

[LordofBionicles]

I think only the beings created by the Great Beings count as part of the "Body metaphor" since they were the once who designed Mata Nui as well as the beings who inhabited him. If that's the case then the Makuta are not part of that although they had their own function as well, and the Vahki were designed many many years after all that so I wouldn't count them either, just my thoughts.

[Azani]

I think only the beings created by the Great Beings count as part of the "Body metaphor" since they were the once who designed Mata Nui as well as the beings who inhabited him. If that's the case then the Makuta are not part of that...

It's a fairly obscure piece of information, but all of the Makuta were actually created by the Great Beings.

[Pomegranate]

And as far as we know, the chute system was only in Metru Nui, which was the "brain". It was never supposed to be an exact metaphor, the continents/domes themselves are the only ones that are supposed to relate as some of them can be other organs, I suppose, with Karda Nui as the heart obviously and Xia would be, I dunno, something with all the production it's responsible for. The Bohrok and the matoran function like cells doing a job, but there's really no analog to any human biological functions that I can think of, definitely not for the Bohrok. At best they'd be, like, antibodies at the sight of a wound, cleaning it? Or maybe they'd be like a blood clot and scab? I really should know more biology, this is pathetic

Edited April 20, 2014 by Pomegranate

[fishers64]

 

I think only the beings created by the Great Beings count as part of the "Body metaphor" since they were the once who designed Mata Nui as well as the beings who inhabited him. If that's the case then the Makuta are not part of that...

It's a fairly obscure piece of information, but all of the Makuta were actually created by the Great Beings.

 

Actually, all of the Makuta were created by Mata Nui.

 

Around 100,000 years ago, the Makuta species were created by Mata Nui on an island in the far south of the Matoran Universe. He formed their bodies out of a green liquid created by the Great Beings. Mata Nui created one hundred members of the species, eighty-five male and fifteen female, all of whom were made to be a part of the Brotherhood of Makuta and create Rahi to fill the universe with. Shortly after their creation, Miserix was appointed leader of the Brotherhood by Mata Nui.

 

Axonn nodded. "Yes, this is the place the Great Spirit created the Makuta and the only place new Makuta could ever spring from. From that pool came their substance, made into living form by the powers of the Great Spirit until time made it into pure energy."

 

Boingy.

Edited April 20, 2014 by fishers64

[Pomegranate]

 

 

I think only the beings created by the Great Beings count as part of the "Body metaphor" since they were the once who designed Mata Nui as well as the beings who inhabited him. If that's the case then the Makuta are not part of that...

It's a fairly obscure piece of information, but all of the Makuta were actually created by the Great Beings.

 

Actually, all of the Makuta were created by Mata Nui.

 

 

 

Around 100,000 years ago, the Makuta species were created by Mata Nui on an island in the far south of the Matoran Universe. He formed their bodies out of a green liquid created by the Great Beings. Mata Nui created one hundred members of the species, eighty-five male and fifteen female, all of whom were made to be a part of the Brotherhood of Makuta and create Rahi to fill the universe with. Shortly after their creation, Miserix was appointed leader of the Brotherhood by Mata Nui.

 

I think it is from an official storyline source, the same one that had Brutaka and Axonn going to destroy the antidermis pool. Destiny War...

 

Well, the GBs created the Antidermis, and by the end that's what they all reverted to (the gaseous form anyways) so you could still claim the GB's created them but, that's irrelevant anyways so

 

Yes, like LoB said, the Vahki were created later on, by Nupara, not as a part of a regular design. The body metaphors you're talking about apply to any city, really. People are cells, doing a job to keep the larger organism alive (community or economy or the city itself or whatever) and the law enforcement art like antibodies, major roads like the circulatory system, the scholars, schools, and libraries the information as the brain, the government officials and CEOs as the nervous system cause them pretty much tell the body what to do, etc etc. You can apply that metaphor to basically anything that's complex enough, and so the body metaphor applies to the MU on many, many levels, and I think it works for individual cities like Metru Nui somewhat better than the robot as a whole.

[Azani]

 

 

I think only the beings created by the Great Beings count as part of the "Body metaphor" since they were the once who designed Mata Nui as well as the beings who inhabited him. If that's the case then the Makuta are not part of that...

It's a fairly obscure piece of information, but all of the Makuta were actually created by the Great Beings.

 

Actually, all of the Makuta were created by Mata Nui.

 

 

 

Around 100,000 years ago, the Makuta species were created by Mata Nui on an island in the far south of the Matoran Universe. He formed their bodies out of a green liquid created by the Great Beings. Mata Nui created one hundred members of the species, eighty-five male and fifteen female, all of whom were made to be a part of the Brotherhood of Makuta and create Rahi to fill the universe with. Shortly after their creation, Miserix was appointed leader of the Brotherhood by Mata Nui.

I think it is from an official storyline source, the same one that had Brutaka and Axonn going to destroy the antidermis pool. Destiny War...

 

Sorry about that; that's a pretty significant mistake on my part. I really shouldn't try to put my opinion on someone else unless I'm absolutely sure of the answer, expecially if said person is initially correct, a LordofBionicles was. One thing that I never understood, however, is how Mata Nui could have possibly created the Makuta species on an island in the far south of the MU, or on any island in the MU for that matter, ifthe entire MU was inside his body. How would that have worked?

Edited April 20, 2014 by Artakha's Nephew

[fishers64]

Maybe Mata Nui once had a Toa-size form before he took over the bot?

 

Nah, possible but not likely. Still, if I can command the muscles in my leg to move, he should be able to command a bunch of Makuta to rise from an antidermis pool.

[Pomegranate]

 

 

 

I think only the beings created by the Great Beings count as part of the "Body metaphor" since they were the once who designed Mata Nui as well as the beings who inhabited him. If that's the case then the Makuta are not part of that...

It's a fairly obscure piece of information, but all of the Makuta were actually created by the Great Beings.

 

Actually, all of the Makuta were created by Mata Nui.

 

 

 

Around 100,000 years ago, the Makuta species were created by Mata Nui on an island in the far south of the Matoran Universe. He formed their bodies out of a green liquid created by the Great Beings. Mata Nui created one hundred members of the species, eighty-five male and fifteen female, all of whom were made to be a part of the Brotherhood of Makuta and create Rahi to fill the universe with. Shortly after their creation, Miserix was appointed leader of the Brotherhood by Mata Nui.

I think it is from an official storyline source, the same one that had Brutaka and Axonn going to destroy the antidermis pool. Destiny War...

 

Sorry about that; that's a pretty significant mistake on my part. I really shouldn't try to put my opinion on someone else unless I'm absolutely sure of the answer, expecially if said person is initially correct, a LordofBionicles was. One thing that I never understood, however, is how Mata Nui could have possibly created the Makuta species on an island in the far south of the MU, or on any island in the MU for that matter, ifthe entire MU was inside his body. How would that have worked?

 

While his spirit was awake, he had full control of the MU aka the inside of his body. If you read whatever serial it was that took place in the MU during Teri's reign, he was able to interfere with the poor inhabitants pretty well. I personally haven't read it in years, but I do remember him being able to send minions to do things and possibly interact with his shadow powers? Mata Nui probably instructed builders on what to do, or extended his power to transform and manipulate things directly. It would make sense that he would be able to do things that we just don't know about 'cause he spent most of the story asleep, dying, and evicted from his own body. I think he could definitely be able to control a factory of some sort specially designed to allow the Great Spirit to create living things and such from his mind's eye. This was very early in the MU so it's also possible that he was able to focus all his attention and power to a specific area to be able to control a body or something in order to do things "himself"?

Edited April 20, 2014 by Pomegranate

[bonesiii]

And as far as we know, the chute system was only in Metru Nui

There were underwater chutes between islands, but they were rarely used.

 

One thing that I never understood, however, is how Mata Nui could have possibly created the Makuta species on an island in the far south of the MU, or on any island in the MU for that matter, ifthe entire MU was inside his body. How would that have worked?

I don't see why you'd think the guy with total power inside the MU wouldn't be capable of this... But asking how he did it is fair. We don't know exactly, but one of the soon-to-be-posted chapters of my retelling gives a possible answer to this if you're curious.

[Pomegranate]

 

And as far as we know, the chute system was only in Metru Nui

There were underwater chutes between islands, but they were rarely used.

I was under the impression those were tunnels? Or am I confused in thinking "chutes" refers to the fast moving magnetic liquid protodermic ones, and not just any transport tube in general regardless of if its filled with liquid or air or whatever? I'm aware the domes were all connected in such a manner, but like you said they were rarely used and much too ridiculous in size to really be an efficient means of moving stuff around, at least not in a manner at all comparable to the circulatory system, except in Metru Nui where the Matoran used them to whiz around all over the place and move themselves and cargo quickly all over the city, holding to the metaphor better. Thanks for the correction, though.

 

I understand your retelling is this big personal project and all, but can you give us at least a basic little gist of what your explanation is? I seriously doubt anyone is gonna be mad getting such super important spoilers before reading it for themselves whenever it's posted

We want to know! *starts rallying rioters and chanting*

 

Um, you could use it as sneak peak, maybe some free advertising, to draw in new readers? C'moooon

[SarracenianKaijin]

Here's a thought.

 

What if the Matorans don't keep Mata Nui from living and provinding not through some vague, techical mechanics like "fix-this-part-of-Mata-Nui's-spleen-without-any-one-realizing-for-bizarre-reasons". Rather, the simple act of work in itself is what keeps Mata Nui functioning. After all, everything about Matoran society has to do with work. Different individuals are chiefly defined by what they do. People who don't focus their work are considered "freaks" or "weirdos" by everyone else (see: Takua). Also notice how criminal activity is described as "interference with their own duty and endanger the health of Mata Nui". The matoran's work takes the chief priority in that sentence.

 

Let's not forget the idea of the Three Virtues are essentially, based on working. Or how Arthaka, "the heaven", is where all the "good workers" go. Notice also how free-time activities seem to also have a great significance, such as the important Coliseum and the religious Princibles having correlations with Kohlii-playing. This wouldn't exist without the presence of the vitality of working. So here, the culture, philosphy and religion can be described as based on work.

 

We can say there is a mythopoeic relation between Matorans and Mata Nui. The idea of god needing religious worship to function and live, which in the pantheistic universe of MU means the continuing survival of the matorans themselves.

 

So I'd say the "body metaphor" isn't entirely literal, but obviously exists. After all, why else would Karda Nui, the heart-world, "The World that Feeds the World", contain the base form of Matorans who are also notably Beings of Light. Light being chiefly important element in the very manichaeistic world-view of the matorans

[bonesiii]

Pomegranate, I'm not sure what you're asking about the chutes there, could you clarify?

 

You won't have to wait super long; it's in Chapter 15 (Mata Nui creating somebody; 16 is creation of Makuta). I'm doing a chapter a week (assuming I don't take any breaks in posting, and I'm thinking I probably won't), and 9 goes up this Wednesday, to give you an idea of the wait time. I can say that the last sentence of your previous post is on the right track.

Edited April 20, 2014 by bonesiii

[Constructelf]

Here's a thought.

 

What if the Matorans don't keep Mata Nui from living and provinding not through some vague, techical mechanics like "fix-this-part-of-Mata-Nui's-spleen-without-any-one-realizing-for-bizarre-reasons". Rather, the simple act of work in itself is what keeps Mata Nui functioning. After all, everything about Matoran society has to do with work. Different individuals are chiefly defined by what they do. People who don't focus their work are considered "freaks" or "weirdos" by everyone else (see: Takua). Also notice how criminal activity is described as "interference with their own duty and endanger the health of Mata Nui". The matoran's work takes the chief priority in that sentence.

 

Let's not forget the idea of the Three Virtues are essentially, based on working. Or how Arthaka, "the heaven", is where all the "good workers" go. Notice also how free-time activities seem to also have a great significance, such as the important Coliseum and the religious Princibles having correlations with Kohlii-playing. This wouldn't exist without the presence of the vitality of working. So here, the culture, philosphy and religion can be described as based on work.

 

We can say there is a mythopoeic relation between Matorans and Mata Nui. The idea of god needing religious worship to function and live, which in the pantheistic universe of MU means the continuing survival of the matorans themselves.

 

So I'd say the "body metaphor" isn't entirely literal, but obviously exists. After all, why else would Karda Nui, the heart-world, "The World that Feeds the World", contain the base form of Matorans who are also notably Beings of Light. Light being chiefly important element in the very manichaeistic world-view of the matorans

I'm pretty sure that the whole metaphorical work thig was the official explanation for how the Matoran kept Mata Nui running. A lot of their work had nothing to do with maintaining the robot, but the energy produced by the act of work as well as the fact that there was work being done at all "stimulated" Mata Nui in a sense and kept him running.

 

As for the Karda Nui thing, however, the Av-Matoran weren't permanently residing in Karda Nui. The Great Beings put them there to build Karda Nui, but shortly before the Toa Mata went into the Codrex, they were evacuated, seeing as they would be obliterated by the energy storms if they stayed. The Av-Matoran were only in Karda Nui at all after that was because during the Great Cataclysm, their homes on the Southern Continent caved in and they fell into the dome immediately below them.

[Pomegranate]

Pomegranate, I'm not sure what you're asking about the chutes there, could you clarify?

 

You won't have to wait super long; it's in Chapter 15 (Mata Nui creating somebody; 16 is creation of Makuta). I'm doing a chapter a week (assuming I don't take any breaks in posting, and I'm thinking I probably won't), and 9 goes up this Wednesday, to give you an idea of the wait time. I can say that the last sentence of your previous post is on the right track.

A month and a half isn't a super long wait? It's okay.

 

I was asking if the chutes that connect the domes/islands are the same thing as the chute transportation system in Metru Nui, or if they're just tunnels, not filled with liquid protodermis in a force field or something. Never really sat down with BS01 and looked up how the domes connected. I was just really confused on that in your post that the islands are connected by 'em, and one kind of chute is more effective in a circulatory system metaphor than the other.

 

I'm with Sarracenian on the idea that it was just the act of work that kept Mata Nui going rather than specific repair on whatever important "organ" components needed 'em, and that worship=work thing.

Edited April 20, 2014 by Pomegranate

[Quisoves Potoo]

 

 

I think only the beings created by the Great Beings count as part of the "Body metaphor" since they were the once who designed Mata Nui as well as the beings who inhabited him. If that's the case then the Makuta are not part of that...

It's a fairly obscure piece of information, but all of the Makuta were actually created by the Great Beings.

 

Actually, all of the Makuta were created by Mata Nui.

 

Around 100,000 years ago, the Makuta species were created by Mata Nui on an island in the far south of the Matoran Universe. He formed their bodies out of a green liquid created by the Great Beings. Mata Nui created one hundred members of the species, eighty-five male and fifteen female, all of whom were made to be a part of the Brotherhood of Makuta and create Rahi to fill the universe with. Shortly after their creation, Miserix was appointed leader of the Brotherhood by Mata Nui.

The personalities and names of the Makuta, however, seem to have been per-determined by the Great Beings. For, in the Melding Alternate Universe, in which Mata Nui was never created, Teridax, Chirox, Vamprah, and Gorast all existed and were recognizable to Vezon and Mazeka.

[fishers64]

@Makuta Making Question: bonesiii's headcanon robots did it. At Mata Nui's command.

I was asking if the chutes that connect the domes/islands are the same thing as the chute transportation system in Metru Nui, or if they're just tunnels, not filled with liquid protodermis in a force field or something. Never really sat down with BS01 and looked up how the domes connected. I was just really confused on that in your post that the islands are connected by 'em, and one kind of chute is more effective in a circulatory system metaphor than the other.

 

Underwater Chutes
Underwater Chutes connected Metru Nui with other locations in the Matoran Universe. These Chutes are all over Metru Nui, but they fell into disuse because they were considered unsafe, making them a very good way for different types of Rahi to travel, including the Visorak horde.
Jaller, Hewkii, Kongu, Hahli, Matoro, Nuparu, and Takanuva traveled in an abandoned underwater Chute from Le-Metru to Karzahni.

To my knowledge, they're the same thing.

However, the domes also have tunnels and sea gates connecting them, which can be confusing.

 

 

The personalities and names of the Makuta, however, seem to have been per-determined by the Great Beings. For, in the Melding Alternate Universe, in which Mata Nui was never created, Teridax, Chirox, Vamprah, and Gorast all existed and were recognizable to Vezon and Mazeka.

 

It's possible that those personalities were programmed into Mata Nui to give to the Makuta, yes - I wouldn't rule it out. Or it might be a property of the antidermis' mind itself, how it was divided.

[Mr. Lightning Bolt]

 

Here's a thought.

 

What if the Matorans don't keep Mata Nui from living and provinding not through some vague, techical mechanics like "fix-this-part-of-Mata-Nui's-spleen-without-any-one-realizing-for-bizarre-reasons". Rather, the simple act of work in itself is what keeps Mata Nui functioning. After all, everything about Matoran society has to do with work. Different individuals are chiefly defined by what they do. People who don't focus their work are considered "freaks" or "weirdos" by everyone else (see: Takua). Also notice how criminal activity is described as "interference with their own duty and endanger the health of Mata Nui". The matoran's work takes the chief priority in that sentence.

 

Let's not forget the idea of the Three Virtues are essentially, based on working. Or how Arthaka, "the heaven", is where all the "good workers" go. Notice also how free-time activities seem to also have a great significance, such as the important Coliseum and the religious Princibles having correlations with Kohlii-playing. This wouldn't exist without the presence of the vitality of working. So here, the culture, philosphy and religion can be described as based on work.

 

We can say there is a mythopoeic relation between Matorans and Mata Nui. The idea of god needing religious worship to function and live, which in the pantheistic universe of MU means the continuing survival of the matorans themselves.

 

So I'd say the "body metaphor" isn't entirely literal, but obviously exists. After all, why else would Karda Nui, the heart-world, "The World that Feeds the World", contain the base form of Matorans who are also notably Beings of Light. Light being chiefly important element in the very manichaeistic world-view of the matorans

I'm pretty sure that the whole metaphorical work thig was the official explanation for how the Matoran kept Mata Nui running. A lot of their work had nothing to do with maintaining the robot, but the energy produced by the act of work as well as the fact that there was work being done at all "stimulated" Mata Nui in a sense and kept him running.

 

As for the Karda Nui thing, however, the Av-Matoran weren't permanently residing in Karda Nui. The Great Beings put them there to build Karda Nui, but shortly before the Toa Mata went into the Codrex, they were evacuated, seeing as they would be obliterated by the energy storms if they stayed. The Av-Matoran were only in Karda Nui at all after that was because during the Great Cataclysm, their homes on the Southern Continent caved in and they fell into the dome immediately below them.

 

This whole "matorans work= Mata Nui Energy" thing is kinda disturbing to me. It's like the Matrix almost. Did Greg realize the implications of that?

[Zox Tomana]

Considering the robot thing was pre-planned years in advance, I'm pretty sure that the story team (remember, Greg wasn't the only one working on this universe) considered the implications: LEGO tending to avoid religious stuff.

[Mr. Lightning Bolt]

Considering the robot thing was pre-planned years in advance, I'm pretty sure that the story team (remember, Greg wasn't the only one working on this universe) considered the implications: LEGO tending to avoid religious stuff.

I dont see how religion plays much of a role in that whole thing. It sounds like slavery to me. What I mean by Matrix-like is the system itself: harvested energy from grouped individuals to power machines.

[bonesiii]

This whole "matorans work= Mata Nui Energy" thing is kinda disturbing to me. It's like the Matrix almost. Did Greg realize the implications of that?

Human work equals energy at our power plants, for other humans... Doesn't all work tend to produce energy of some sort? Also, the Matoran were made specifically for that repair work, while humans aren't made for something like the Matrix. And if they didn't keep him in good repair, he wouldn't be able to Reform Spherus Magna, and eventually the Agori population would die. They were essentially support workers for a rescue worker. Not really like the Matrix at all.

[SarracenianKaijin]

Considering the robot thing was pre-planned years in advance, I'm pretty sure that the story team (remember, Greg wasn't the only one working on this universe) considered the implications: LEGO tending to avoid religious stuff.

 

Bionicle, since its conception, had its inspirations from religion and mythology. If calling the base story setups of your franchise as "the story bible" wasn't enough of an indication (... Okay I know it doesn't actually mean that hush I'm trying to sound impressive here). And let us not forget Bob Thompson's own philosphy on the importance of stories.

 

Which also means saying Bionicle and religion are exclusive from one and other is nonsense.

 

This whole "matorans work= Mata Nui Energy" thing is kinda disturbing to me. It's like the Matrix almost. Did Greg realize the implications of that?

 

 

How would a worship of god who is all around you maintaining the universe through your own power, the symbosis of the worshipper and the idol, be anything but numinous?

Edited April 21, 2014 by SarracenianKaijin
Please stop insulting others simply because you disagree with them. You can express disagreement without belittling people. -bones

[bonesiii]

Common misconceptions, Sar. "Story bible" is a common label, referring to the records of what is canon, planned behind the scenes. It wasn't meant to have religious connotations. And drawing inspiration does not mean you're intending to portray the things that inspired. Really the main idea was to be the mystery of the crashed giant robot, but told cryptically and discovered gradually in layers through adventure and battle. Actually at first it was going to be revealed right away but when they saw how popular it was they decided to slow the discovery down over ten years.

 

And they do not actually worship Mata Nui. Like Zox said, LEGO avoids such things as it can be controversial, and they didn't want to anger parents. (Some parents formed the misconception anyways and got angry anyways, but LEGO worked harder to avoid it in later years.)

[SarracenianKaijin]

It wasn't meant to have religious connotations. And drawing inspiration does not mean you're intending to portray the things that inspired.

 

[What} about prophesies, legends, pantheistic gods and demigods, symbols, idol worship, and Maori-inspired ideas[?]

 

Also, saying that "there aren't mythological and religious ideas in Bionicle because LEGO" is like saying "possibility of death doesn't exist in cartoons because TV network censorship."

 

You are supposed to imagine that the myth&religion-shaped holes aren't there.

Edited April 21, 2014 by bonesiii
Please keep a respectful tone... -bones

[Constructelf]

Ok, so the religious and mythological references are there (though entirely by accident), but you can only find them if you look hard enough, something that the target audience isn't expected to be doing. There, done?

 

Also, who's "he"?

Edited April 21, 2014 by A Magus With Class

[bonesiii]

Actually, Sar, I don't think LEGO really cares how you imagine what is beyond the world they established; they probably just figure every fan will insert their own view behind it. If you want to see it a particular way, chances are you'll hunt for anything you can take that way, as your post there illustrates, and probably ignore things that you don't like as much, like spaceships and robots (both of which were clearly there right in 2001 BTW, although we didn't know that we didn't see true robots until 2002).

 

They definitely don't intend things like gods or idolatry, though! And legends and symbols don't normally carry those connotations anyways.

Edited April 21, 2014 by bonesiii

[Quisoves Potoo]

And they do not actually worship Mata Nui.

Only by a very strict definition of worship. Yes, they didn't see him as the [normal meaning of the term]. However, the term worship is not usually used in such a strict sense. [such] mythology is rather like the mythology the Matoran developed. Unaware that Mata Nui was a giant robot, and that the Matoran Universe was housed inside him, they saw him as a powerful spirit, lower in the cosmic hierarchy than the mysterious Great Beings. who came from a paradise and was eventually cast into sleep by Makuta. They anticipated his return, when all, they thought, would be set right.

And we have seen various characters (Nokama in one of the Metru Nui books comes to mind) pray to him, saying things like "Mata Nui protect us!" There are also expressions like "Mata Nui knows what."

The inhabitants of the Matoran Universe saw Mata Nui as a being surpassing all they knew, who cared and provided for them. In short, he was to them as [some others]. The only major difference I can think of between these examples and Mata Nui as he was thought of prior to his awakening is that the latter can die. But immortality is not a requisite for worship. After all, the deities conceived by most cultures are far from perfect.

Edited April 21, 2014 by bonesiii
Let's avoid real-world religious comparisons except the vague basic idea, okay? There's a gray area here where it's being compared to Bionicle, but the rule against religious discussion generally means to avoid details. -bones

[bonesiii]

I'm not sure the examples you gave are really not examples of the normal meaning of the term "worship", but let's keep examples out of it, okay? (See edit note to above post.) (Also, where you said "not usually used", it sounds like you meant "not always used".) In any event, like I said, canonically they do not worship him, they simply respect him and correctly believe that he has (or had) power in their world. That said, I vaguely recall that it was occasionally said that the Makuta wanted to be worshiped. But it was never said he wanted to be seen as a deity; that would presumably be one of the uses of the term as hyperbole for Makuta wanting all their respect and adoration (especially in his original plan to mindwipe them, Vahi-ify them, and then indoctrinate them).

 

Also, the idea of Mata Nui as a spirit wasn't their idea; it's what his name literally means; Mata = spirit, and Nui = Great. So, that was something they were essentially taught by the Great Beings. (But it doesn't carry religious connotations; it simply means that he's a stable energy form of life rather than a solid matter form.) And he really was cast into sleep. The paradise thing as far as I recall was not part of Matoran-made mythology but was the 'cover story' used by the Turaga on Mata Nui Island to keep the Matoran from wanting to find the way home to Metru Nui and run into the Makuta guarding the way, thus getting themselves killed or infected. And it was a somewhat accurate poetic/cryptic description of Metru Nui.

 

Actually, Matoran mythology generally downsized Mata Nui to being simply a large titan, and the Turaga's cover story implies that too. That was part of why the giant robot reveal was so thrilling; he turned out to be much bigger and more powerful than the Matoran had thought.

Edited April 21, 2014 by bonesiii

[Quisoves Potoo]

I'm not sure the examples you gave are really not examples of the normal meaning of the term "worship".

On the contrary, I was saying that they were examples of the normal meaning of the word.

That said, I apologize if I violated the rules. I assumed that because I was not discussing those religions, only using them as examples, that I was not writing about them in a way that might cause offense. I don't see how the mere mention of a dead religion can be offensive, but you are the forum moderator, so I respect your word on the matter. EDIT: I remember now that I did not mention only dead religions, so what I said doesn't apply to my first reference, only the subsequent example.

 

In any event, like I said, canonically they do not worship him, they simply respect him and correctly believe that he has (or had) power in their world. That said, I vaguely recall that it was occasionally said that the Makuta wanted to be worshiped. But it was never said he wanted to be seen as a deity; that would presumably be one of the uses of the term as hyperbole for Makuta wanting all their respect and adoration (especially in his original plan to mindwipe them, Vahi-ify them, and then indoctrinate them).

But in the end, what is the difference? The Matoran respected Mata Nui. They honored him and believed that they were dependent upon him, which they were. They knew that he was more powerful than they any creature they knew, even if they did not realize the extent of his power. And as you said, they thought of him as a Great Spirit, so they believed him to be no mere corporeal being. And while the word "spirit" may not necessarily have religious connotations, they prayed to him, as I said before, so I think that in the case of the Matoran it did. Additionally, the fact that they thought that the Great Cataclysm was caused by his falling asleep, and yet did not realize what he truly was certainly suggests that they ascribed a supernatural existence to him. Most religions, with a few notable exceptions, worship deities who are limited. I don't see how Mata Nui was, prior to his reawakening (and possibly even after) was different.

As for the paradise, while I'm foggy on the details, Greg did say that Spherus Magna was that paradise, so that suggests that the idea preceded the Great Cataclysm.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Quisoves Pugnat

[bonesiii]

Well, the difference depends on how you define it. By the normal meaning, the difference would be that they don't really think of him that much and don't really devote their lives to him. They devote their lives more to the Three Virtues, and are grateful to Mata Nui / GBs for giving those to them, but in much the same way you would be grateful to one of your best teachers for a good education. There's a good analogy in the second half of ("first season") of an anime show called Sword Art Online (my brother got me onto this -- it's a must watch, FTR ), where people live in an MMOG, and respect the administrators (not knowing a certain thing about them I won't spoil, related to the first half), and recognize their power over that world, but certainly would not think of "worship" as an apt term for it.

 

Basically it implies there's something fundamentally unequal about the person being worshiped; but the Matoran basically saw Mata Nui as an equal in terms of a person, just the one priveleged to have that authority position and power.

 

 

I didn't catch your prayer point. I seem to remember a scene in MOL that seemed like that, but most of the sayings you cited aren't meant in the sense that he would actually hear, and even the MOL one shouldn't really count because Takua knew Mata Nui was asleep at the time anyways. Really it's like if you say "I hope the police get him!" Obviously it's meant to seem similar, especially in the case of "Mata Nui knows what", but those things are meant more as jokes than anything. Takua probably just thought of it as talking to himself and phrasing it that way.

 

And in a world where elemental powers are a normal part of your nature, I don't see why they would think of the GC or his normal activity as supernatural. They just saw it as somehow or another connected to his having the most powerful power (if you will ). We don't know that they even had a concept of supernature, really.

[Quisoves Potoo]

Well, the difference depends on how you define it. By the normal meaning, the difference would be that they don't really think of him that much and don't really devote their lives to him. They devote their lives more to the Three Virtues, and are grateful to Mata Nui / GBs for giving those to them, but in much the same way you would be grateful to one of your best teachers for a good education. There's a good analogy in the second half of ("first season") of an anime show called Sword Art Online (my brother got me onto this -- it's a must watch, FTR ), where people live in an MMOG, and respect the administrators (not knowing a certain thing about them I won't spoil, related to the first half), and recognize their power over that world, but certainly would not think of "worship" as an apt term for it.

That's a good distinction.

Come to think of it, the inhabitants of Metru Nui did not focus on him very much in their lives prior to the Great Cataclysm. They had a Great Temple, true, but it was devoted to learning rather than religion. In fact, Mata Nui was pretty much their equivalent of Santa Claus, as they had a myth about him riding the chutes to deliver gifts on Naming Day.

However, I'm still not certain about those same Matoran on the island of Mata Nui or other populations in the MU. While the Matoran on the island of Mata Nui were never shown to have religious practices per se, they did seem to talk of the Great Spirit in such a way that it seems to me that they might have devoted themselves to him had he awoken without Teridax's seizure of power. The second Bionicle comic has the Turaga stating "In the time before time, when the world was new, the Great Spirit Mata Nui descended from the skies like a burning star. he walked the world, and marvelled at its beauty, and watched over all living things."

So he was considered a protector on the Island of Mata Nui. How that would have affected his treatment had he been reawakened without Makuta's take-over I do not know.

Additionally Axonn and Brutaka seemed to think of Mata Nui as a protector, and did devote their lives to him as agents of the Order of Mata Nui.

So,for the moment, I'm on the fence. I see your point about the lack of total devotion on the part of the Matoran we've seen, but I can't help but wonder if the Matoran of the Island of Mata Nui might have actually worshiped him and whether or not the Order of Mata Nui could be considered religious.

[bonesiii]

Well, he was a protector in the sense that he kept the physics of their world from unraveling (to paraphrase one of Greg's statements).

 

The Order was named that mainly because they would get inside information from him that he wasn't going to give to your average Toa. They were his way of acting without needing to handle things directly, since he preferred to focus on his studies of alien worlds. The structure of the organization would work, in fact, without his having any power at all; he's the leader. If anything I'd expect them to seem least like that because they tended to know more of the behind-the-scenes secrets (although that he was a giant robot, I don't think has been confirmed as one of them).

 

Basically, they were protectors too -- just nowhere near as powerful as him. Toa are (often) protectors as well.

 

As for the Matoran of Mata Nui, since the Turaga taught them how to be, and the Turaga thought of him as the average Matoran in the MU did, it seems pretty unlikely.

Edited April 22, 2014 by bonesiii