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Rumor: Bionicle's return in 2015


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You know what'd be cool? If in a new story arc, the 'ancient astronauts' that conspiracy theorists think were present in our history were the Great Beings. A new BIONICLE line could eventually end up coming to Earth, if the histories of Spherus Magna and Earth were somehow tied together.

 

Maybe after a year of a new Toa group finding clues about the Great Beings on Spherus Magna, there's a jump across in the story to a bunch of humans on Earth finding a tomb belonging to Heremus or another Great Being. The tomb could be like the lab seen in The Legend Reborn, only created much later, and just as Angonce stayed on Spherus Magna, another Great Being might have stayed on Earth. Even better, the 'ancient astronauts' could have been when the GB came the first time, but intelligent life hadn't developed far enough to begin their experiments. Now that we're developed as a species, they could come back to pick up where they left off.

 

What if figures from Earth mythology - particularly those in Oceanic mythology, on which a lot of BIONICLE draws inspiration - are earlier creations of the Great Beings? It'd be awesome if it turned out that Vulcan Ra were based on the designs for Toa of Fire, or if Anansi was based on a Toa of Air.

 

I think I'm getting a bit ahead of myself, but I'd love to see a proper BIONICLE/Earth crossover. Maybe I'll write it myself as a fanfic someday. I disagree with Greg saying it couldn't be possible in the story, because it's fiction.

 

This is just one way I would love to see BIONICLE return.

There are a huge number of problems with this.

 

First and foremost, it flies in the face of the universe Bionicle established, which was completely independent of our own. The Bionicle universe was an amazing example of a "constructed world"—a universe completely independent of our own, with its own distinct physical laws. And unlike Narnia or Oz or even Middle Earth, there are no pathways or causal links between the two. To suddenly add those would be to cheapen it; essentially admitting that the Bionicle universe is not compelling enough to exist independently of our own. There's a reason the entire Bionicle story team (not just Greg) vetoed any movie pitch that featured humans.

 

Secondly, your concept would be controversial, and controversy is rarely a good sales tactic in the children's toy business. Ancient Astronaut stories usually start with the premise that all myths have truth to them, which combined with a real-world setting fly in the face of numerous religions, especially Christianity and other monotheistic religions that lay claim to a singular Creator. Lego has skirted the lines of this taboo with minifigures based on Greek or Egyptian mythology, which it can do with abandon since there are few real believers of those religions anymore (and those there are are typically not doing so out of tradition, but in some new-age reinterpretation). Get into actual ancestral traditions that are still maintained, and you risk the ire of both modern followers of those religions (the same issue that caused many name changes early in Bionicle's lifespan) as well as strictly religious families (of which there are many in the U.S., one of Lego and Bionicle's biggest markets).

 

Your idea is well-suited to fan fiction—in fact, winners of an early Bionicle fan site contest included a site (created by BZP and The Lego Group's own Kelly McKiernan) documenting an archeological expedition to the (Earth-based) island of Mata Nui. But that sort of thing it has no place in the canon story, which is why things like that were avoided throughout Bionicle's entire ten-year run.

Formerly Lyichir: Rachira of Influence

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You know what'd be cool? If in a new story arc, the 'ancient astronauts' that conspiracy theorists think were present in our history were the Great Beings. A new BIONICLE line could eventually end up coming to Earth, if the histories of Spherus Magna and Earth were somehow tied together.

 

Maybe after a year of a new Toa group finding clues about the Great Beings on Spherus Magna, there's a jump across in the story to a bunch of humans on Earth finding a tomb belonging to Heremus or another Great Being. The tomb could be like the lab seen in The Legend Reborn, only created much later, and just as Angonce stayed on Spherus Magna, another Great Being might have stayed on Earth. Even better, the 'ancient astronauts' could have been when the GB came the first time, but intelligent life hadn't developed far enough to begin their experiments. Now that we're developed as a species, they could come back to pick up where they left off.

 

What if figures from Earth mythology - particularly those in Oceanic mythology, on which a lot of BIONICLE draws inspiration - are earlier creations of the Great Beings? It'd be awesome if it turned out that Vulcan Ra were based on the designs for Toa of Fire, or if Anansi was based on a Toa of Air.

 

I think I'm getting a bit ahead of myself, but I'd love to see a proper BIONICLE/Earth crossover. Maybe I'll write it myself as a fanfic someday. I disagree with Greg saying it couldn't be possible in the story, because it's fiction.

 

This is just one way I would love to see BIONICLE return.

There are a huge number of problems with this.

 

First and foremost, it flies in the face of the universe Bionicle established, which was completely independent of our own. The Bionicle universe was an amazing example of a "constructed world"—a universe completely independent of our own, with its own distinct physical laws. And unlike Narnia or Oz or even Middle Earth, there are no pathways or causal links between the two. To suddenly add those would be to cheapen it; essentially admitting that the Bionicle universe is not compelling enough to exist independently of our own. There's a reason the entire Bionicle story team (not just Greg) vetoed any movie pitch that featured humans.

 

Secondly, your concept would be controversial, and controversy is rarely a good sales tactic in the children's toy business. Ancient Astronaut stories usually start with the premise that all myths have truth to them, which combined with a real-world setting fly in the face of numerous religions, especially Christianity and other monotheistic religions that lay claim to a singular Creator. Lego has skirted the lines of this taboo with minifigures based on Greek or Egyptian mythology, which it can do with abandon since there are few real believers of those religions anymore (and those there are are typically not doing so out of tradition, but in some new-age reinterpretation). Get into actual ancestral traditions that are still maintained, and you risk the ire of both modern followers of those religions (the same issue that caused many name changes early in Bionicle's lifespan) as well as strictly religious families (of which there are many in the U.S., one of Lego and Bionicle's biggest markets).

 

Your idea is well-suited to fan fiction—in fact, winners of an early Bionicle fan site contest included a site (created by BZP and The Lego Group's own Kelly McKiernan) documenting an archeological expedition to the (Earth-based) island of Mata Nui. But that sort of thing it has no place in the canon story, which is why things like that were avoided throughout Bionicle's entire ten-year run.

 

A lot of ancient astronaut theories can also be slightly racist/culturally insensitive. When people assume that space aliens must have helped ancient people create their amazing monuments and structures, it's often partly because ancient peoples are assumed to have been too primitive to do so on their own. This sort of argument comes up frequently in one of the formative texts on ancient astronauts, Erich von Däniken's Chariots of the Gods? In reality, the Egyptians didn't need help from aliens to create the pyramids any more than we Americans needed help from aliens to create Mount Rushmore.

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LEGO does not release sales figures to any outside source. They do yearly sales recaps that offer just "this was our best-selling, this one underperformed" but that's about it. Anyone claiming actual sales figures and numbers either got them through a mystifying source or is lying.

No one has claimed to have actual sales figures. There hasn't been any lying, either; every fact has been researched and checked before being mentioned.

 

You know what'd be cool? If in a new story arc, the 'ancient astronauts' that conspiracy theorists think were present in our history were the Great Beings. A new BIONICLE line could eventually end up coming to Earth, if the histories of Spherus Magna and Earth were somehow tied together.

 

Maybe after a year of a new Toa group finding clues about the Great Beings on Spherus Magna, there's a jump across in the story to a bunch of humans on Earth finding a tomb belonging to Heremus or another Great Being. The tomb could be like the lab seen in The Legend Reborn, only created much later, and just as Angonce stayed on Spherus Magna, another Great Being might have stayed on Earth. Even better, the 'ancient astronauts' could have been when the GB came the first time, but intelligent life hadn't developed far enough to begin their experiments. Now that we're developed as a species, they could come back to pick up where they left off.

 

What if figures from Earth mythology - particularly those in Oceanic mythology, on which a lot of BIONICLE draws inspiration - are earlier creations of the Great Beings? It'd be awesome if it turned out that Vulcan Ra were based on the designs for Toa of Fire, or if Anansi was based on a Toa of Air.

 

I think I'm getting a bit ahead of myself, but I'd love to see a proper BIONICLE/Earth crossover. Maybe I'll write it myself as a fanfic someday. I disagree with Greg saying it couldn't be possible in the story, because it's fiction.

 

This is just one way I would love to see BIONICLE return.

I love this idea. In fact, an very similar idea has been in my head for several years now; back in 2010, I even considered writing it into a short story as a sort of prequel to the Shattering, but the concept never developed far enough to the point where I could seamlessly craft it into the existing universe, and I eventually dropped it. What you're proposing is a very gripping and exciting story approach, with a lot of potential for edge-of-your-seat suspense; I'd find it very interesting to read about discoveries on both worlds of a common heritage which eventually (hopefully) brings them to meet each other. As you said, there's no real reason why humans and Agori or Glatorian couldn't exist in the same canon story; the possibilities of fiction are endless, and only ever limited in the decisions of the writer. Let's hope that Greg and his collaborators consider a bridge between the two worlds.

 

 

There are a huge number of problems with this.

 

First and foremost, it flies in the face of the universe Bionicle established, which was completely independent of our own. The Bionicle universe was an amazing example of a "constructed world"—a universe completely independent of our own, with its own distinct physical laws.

There are actually very few alien phenomena or physical laws in their universe; ninety-nine percent of the physics that exist in our world are exactly the same in both the MU and Spherus Magna; in addition, several of those that are different, such as the unequal strength of gravity at different locations in the MU, only exist due to the equally alien and artificial construction of the MU as a massive robot, and thus have a reasonable canon explanation that keeps them congruent with Earth physics. Other unearthly phenomena, such as the way in which Spherus Magna's core is constructed in order to keep everyone on the planet from being crushed by it's extreme gravity, seem contrived to specifically fit an uncomfortable situation that the writers of the story accidentally created, rather than to intentionally make the world different from ours.

 

And unlike Narnia or Oz or even Middle Earth, there are no pathways or causal links between the two. To suddenly add those would be to cheapen it; essentially admitting that the Bionicle universe is not compelling enough to exist independently of our own. There's a reason the entire Bionicle story team (not just Greg) vetoed any movie pitch that featured humans.

I'd say that there about as many logical links between the two worlds as there are between Narnia and ours- Narnia was a completely different universe that the kids who traveled there were able to access by a bizarre portal that existed in a wardrobe in their house. Even if the worlds do exist in completely separate universes, there's nothing from an in-story perspective that prevents a Toa from putting on an Olmak and jumping to Earth; no physical laws prevent that on Spherus Magna. Rather, as I said in my reply to Jam Pot, it's completely up to the story team to decide to put humans in the story or not. I don't think that the story would lose any of it's appeal, either; rather, it could be a great way of expanding the scope of the story while reducing the amount of new customs, physical rules, and names that a new fan would need to become familiar with. Everyone is already familiar with Earth.

 

Secondly, your concept would be controversial, and controversy is rarely a good sales tactic in the children's toy business. Ancient Astronaut stories usually start with the premise that all myths have truth to them, which combined with a real-world setting fly in the face of numerous religions, especially Christianity and other monotheistic religions that lay claim to a singular Creator. Lego has skirted the lines of this taboo with minifigures based on Greek or Egyptian mythology, which it can do with abandon since there are few real believers of those religions anymore (and those there are are typically not doing so out of tradition, but in some new-age reinterpretation). Get into actual ancestral traditions that are still maintained, and you risk the ire of both modern followers of those religions (the same issue that caused many name changes early in Bionicle's lifespan) as well as strictly religious families (of which there are many in the U.S., one of Lego and Bionicle's biggest markets).

A lot of ancient astronaut theories can also be slightly racist/culturally insensitive. When people assume that space aliens must have helped ancient people create their amazing monuments and structures, it's often partly because ancient peoples are assumed to have been too primitive to do so on their own. This sort of argument comes up frequently in one of the formative texts on ancient astronauts, Erich von Däniken's Chariots of the Gods? In reality, the Egyptians didn't need help from aliens to create the pyramids any more than we Americans needed help from aliens to create Mount Rushmore.

I don't think that anyone would be seriously bothered by a storyline such as the one that Jam Pot suggested, save a few extreme fundamentalist Christian or Muslim groups. Because it's fiction, and the storyline for a line of toys at that, even deeply religious families rarely take concepts as blasphemous in the same way as they would if they were brought up in formal settings. Have either of you seen the film "Prometheus", the prequel to the Alien series of films? It deals with a very similar premise of ancient aliens giving humans the gift that would allow us to become the powerful species that we are today. Very few people were offended by that, even though it was arguably much higher brow than the storyline for a Lego toyline. I'd be very surprised if any significant number of people were offended by a plotline of the Bionicle story that took a similar path.

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Well, nice to know the entire universe disagrees with me. Not sure why I bothered posting to begin with. Such a constructive environment.

 

I agree that you shouldn't have posted it if you didn't want to face the idea of people disagreeing with you.

 

 

It's not disagreement, I have no problem with that. I regularly produce stop-motion animations and am used to discussing criticism with people, especially when it's constructive. My problem is that there no constructivity here; I can respect Lyichir and Aanchir's responses (though I disagree to an extent, as ancient astronauts don't have to fly in the face of modern religions if you're a good enough writer), but flat out refusal to even consider my ideas borders on offensive. Instead of "That might be cool, but there's also this problem and this problem", whenever I post something I seem to get "No, your idea is foolish and I can't believe you thought to post it here, foolish human". Plus, quite frankly I don't like your sarcastic attitude. In no way is that constructive, and all you'll normally get out of people is a wall of anger-driven text. Be civil.

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there's no real reason why humans and Agori or Glatorian couldn't exist in the same canon story

I'm...guessing you aren't considering the fact that Greg has said that they aren't in the same universe, and the Bionicle universe doesn't have [all of] the physical laws of the universe a "real reason"?

Like, I guess I see what you're saying. But they did already say no on that, so I don't really see them going back and changing it (especially if Greg is on the story/development team).

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there's no real reason why humans and Agori or Glatorian couldn't exist in the same canon story

I'm...guessing you aren't considering the fact that Greg has said that they aren't in the same universe, and the Bionicle universe doesn't have [all of] the physical laws of the universe a "real reason"?

Like, I guess I see what you're saying. But they did already say no on that, so I don't really see them going back and changing it (especially if Greg is on the story/development team).

 

 

Good point, though there are plenty of shows, both live action and animated, which are set on Earth and yet don't rely on real-world physics. A lot of the Marvel universe completely flouts regular physics. The Fantastic Four do it almost every issue, especially if the Microverse is involved. The Infinity Gems are basically the equivalent of Kanohi of godlike power - inanimate physical objects that somehow grant the holder power, said power(s) being activated via telepathic demands from the user.

 

But like you say, it depends on the writer's intentions. Things get retconned in fiction all the time, and in-story there's no way of saying that Earth and SM are in different universes (omniverse omniverse omniverse), but for now it looks like they'll have to stay separate.

 

I'll leave this point now. Thanks for being somewhat civil, Kopekemaster.

Edited by Jam Pot
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Things get retconned in fiction all the time.

 

Indeed. In regards to Bionicle, time-travel comes to mind. Greg said it was outright impossible, and then, lo and behold, Bitil has a mask that can summon his past selves to the present.

 

 

Quicksilver (from Marvel) could do that as well, for a while. I still don't completely understand it, but it was something to do with jumping forwards in time by a few seconds.

 

Sorry. Off-topic.

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I'll leave this point now. Thanks for being somewhat civil, Kopekemaster.

Lol

"somewhat"

Anyway, yeah, I suppose a retcon would be possible.

Also, another thing that hasn't been brought up is, obviously, the Olmak. Since universes are, well, universes, it would really be that we're in a different dimension than Bionicle, in which case it would technically be possible to get there via the Olmak (unless I've been missing something).

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Well, nice to know the entire universe disagrees with me. Not sure why I bothered posting to begin with. Such a constructive environment.

 

I agree that you shouldn't have posted it if you didn't want to face the idea of people disagreeing with you.

 

 

It's not disagreement, I have no problem with that. I regularly produce stop-motion animations and am used to discussing criticism with people, especially when it's constructive. My problem is that there no constructivity here; I can respect Lyichir and Aanchir's responses (though I disagree to an extent, as ancient astronauts don't have to fly in the face of modern religions if you're a good enough writer), but flat out refusal to even consider my ideas borders on offensive. Instead of "That might be cool, but there's also this problem and this problem", whenever I post something I seem to get "No, your idea is foolish and I can't believe you thought to post it here, foolish human". Plus, quite frankly I don't like your sarcastic attitude. In no way is that constructive, and all you'll normally get out of people is a wall of anger-driven text. Be civil.

 

 

Someone said they don't like the idea, and the other said there were a lot of people that disliked the idea. Neither were an attack on you as you apparently took it. Were they very constructive beyond making it clear it's not a direction they want the story to take? No, but sometimes people just plain don't like an idea, and you can't take it as some sort of personal thing.

 

I, personally, think linking the universes would be a terrible idea, as if there's one thing that sets Bionicle apart from other science fiction, it's tat it doesnt fall for Earth/human-centrism. Star Trek, Star Wars, Transformers, you name it. Either the characters are human, the setting is Earth, or both. Bionicle, however, exists in its own sphere, which is part of what makes it so compelling for me.

 

Plus, I don't like the idea of anything that seems like it's lending anything on History channel any sort of credibility.

 

I am plenty civil. I am also blunt, and don't believe in sugarcoating my words so people on the internet can misinterpret what I say.

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This universe is boring. Keep Bionicle as far away from it as possible. [/opinion]

Let's make this one a bit more interesting then, by bringing Bionicle into it.

 

Also, another thing that hasn't been brought up is, obviously, the Olmak. Since universes are, well, universes, it would really be that we're in a different dimension than Bionicle, in which case it would technically be possible to get there via the Olmak (unless I've been missing something).

Actually, I brought it up in my critique of Lyichir's opinion:

Even if the worlds do exist in completely separate universes, there's nothing from an in-story perspective that prevents a Toa from putting on an Olmak and jumping to Earth; no physical laws prevent that on Spherus Magna.

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No one has claimed to have actual sales figures. There hasn't been any lying, either; every fact has been researched and checked before being mentioned.

The only figures available to anyone outside of LEGO themselves is simple "this line sold really well, this one sold less than expected" and other vague numberless answers. LEGO gave David Robertson larger numbers of details, but the whole "the line moved 10k less units this year, and then another 5k units" information is either fabricated to make a point, or stolen information. LEGO makes a very purposeful habit of not releasing those numbers ever.

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No one has claimed to have actual sales figures. There hasn't been any lying, either; every fact has been researched and checked before being mentioned.

The only figures available to anyone outside of LEGO themselves is simple "this line sold really well, this one sold less than expected" and other vague numberless answers. LEGO gave David Robertson larger numbers of details, but the whole "the line moved 10k less units this year, and then another 5k units" information is either fabricated to make a point, or stolen information. LEGO makes a very purposeful habit of not releasing those numbers ever.

 

None of the members who've described sales trends for Bionicle and Hero Factory here have stated any numbers whatsoever.

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This universe is boring. Keep Bionicle as far away from it as possible. [/opinion]

Let's make this one a bit more interesting then, by bringing Bionicle into it.

 

Let's not. The last thing the Bionicle universe needs is humans becoming the center of attention like they already are in all other science fiction.

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This universe is boring. Keep Bionicle as far away from it as possible. [/opinion]

Let's make this one a bit more interesting then, by bringing Bionicle into it.

 

Let's not. The last thing the Bionicle universe needs is humans becoming the center of attention like they already are in all other science fiction.

 

Humans would never be the center of attention; not even close. Just in the picture, on the fringes. And what exactly is wrong with a story dominated by humans, anyway? Humans are the only ones that write and read science fiction.

Find (digital) me under the name Azani on YouTube, Eurobricks, Discord, the BioMedia Project and the TTV Message Boards.

 

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This universe is boring. Keep Bionicle as far away from it as possible. [/opinion]

Let's make this one a bit more interesting then, by bringing Bionicle into it.

 

Let's not. The last thing the Bionicle universe needs is humans becoming the center of attention like they already are in all other science fiction.

 

Humans would never be the center of attention; not even close. Just in the picture, on the fringes. And what exactly is wrong with a story dominated by humans, anyway? Humans are the only ones that write and read science fiction.

 

Believe it or not, when I read science fiction, where anything is possible, I'm not reading it for boring, egocentric humans with their boring, egocentric human problems. Bionicles biggest appeal to me was a completely alien universe with completely alien characters and species, character who we connect with because of their personailities and struggles, not the fact that they share DNA with us. I liked exploring alien worlds, not having humans forced upon me when I read to escape how terrible humans are.

 

I cannot understand how you can see this untouched alien world that formed all on its own without a hint of human to it, and then say "you know what would make this even better? HUMANS!"

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This universe is boring. Keep Bionicle as far away from it as possible. [/opinion]

Let's make this one a bit more interesting then, by bringing Bionicle into it.

 

Let's not. The last thing the Bionicle universe needs is humans becoming the center of attention like they already are in all other science fiction.

 

Humans would never be the center of attention; not even close. Just in the picture, on the fringes. And what exactly is wrong with a story dominated by humans, anyway? Humans are the only ones that write and read science fiction.

 

Believe it or not, when I read science fiction, where anything is possible, I'm not reading it for boring, egocentric humans with their boring, egocentric human problems. Bionicles biggest appeal to me was a completely alien universe with completely alien characters and species, character who we connect with because of their personailities and struggles, not the fact that they share DNA with us. I liked exploring alien worlds, not having humans forced upon me when I read to escape how terrible humans are.

 

I cannot understand how you can see this untouched alien world that formed all on its own without a hint of human to it, and then say "you know what would make this even better? HUMANS!"

 

 

Teridax, most Makuta, Tahu and Vultraz are pretty egocentric.

 

Luke Skywalker doesn't have an ego (in the films).

 

Just sayin'.

 

It's not about using humans to make it 'better', it's about developing a potentially interesting idea. Potentially interesting. Nobody says we have to agree, since notions of interestingness are subjective. I understand your point, Eightfold Father, as I think the Transformers movies suffer a lot from thinking they need a human anchor (which 2 to 4 don't, and I'd love to see a Fall of Cybertron movie), but it's entirely down to how you write a story. For instance, to say that all action movies lack character development and a meaningful plot clearly shows that whoever says so hasn't seen The Matrix. Likewise, if one thinks all romances starring Katherine Heigl are without merit, you haven't seen 27 Dresses. Weird examples, I know, but they sort of made sense in my head. Sorry if it's too weird, but my point is that you can't make sweeping generalisations and say that "because [this] didn't work when [Writer A] wrote it, [Writer B] and [Writer C], and even [Writer Z] are also doomed to fail". It doesn't work like that.

 

 

And not all humans are terrible. Just remember that it was humans who brought you this wonderful, fantastical universe.

 

I know we're never going to see eye-to-eye on this, so how about we agree to disagree?

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It's sort of been touched on, but another (personal) reason I wouldn't want Bionicle to be placed in our universe is frankly that...

well...

Humans are kinda...

well...

I'm not a huge fan, in general.

 

Plus basically what everyone else has said.

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This universe is boring. Keep Bionicle as far away from it as possible. [/opinion]

Let's make this one a bit more interesting then, by bringing Bionicle into it.

 

Let's not. The last thing the Bionicle universe needs is humans becoming the center of attention like they already are in all other science fiction.

 

Humans would never be the center of attention; not even close. Just in the picture, on the fringes. And what exactly is wrong with a story dominated by humans, anyway? Humans are the only ones that write and read science fiction.

 

Believe it or not, when I read science fiction, where anything is possible, I'm not reading it for boring, egocentric humans with their boring, egocentric human problems. Bionicles biggest appeal to me was a completely alien universe with completely alien characters and species, character who we connect with because of their personailities and struggles, not the fact that they share DNA with us. I liked exploring alien worlds, not having humans forced upon me when I read to escape how terrible humans are.

 

I cannot understand how you can see this untouched alien world that formed all on its own without a hint of human to it, and then say "you know what would make this even better? HUMANS!"

 

I still don't really understand your belief that the Bionicle universe lacks "a hint of human". Bionicle is full of ideas and events that, as far as we know, are uniquely human in the real world. Nearly all characters have humanoid bodies, with the few exceptions, such as most Rahi, Nidhiki, and the Visorak, being exact copies of creatures that exist around humans on Earth today. The characters live in houses, eat food, carry objects in their arms, ride four legged animals, use projectile weapons, and do so many other things that are done by humans only. Nearly every quality that could be used to distinguish a similar alien species from a human is shared with humans. Why? Because the story was written by humans, for other humans. Not by Matoran, for humans, but by humans, for other humans.

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One other thing that might be cool in a new BIONICLE saga would be if it was post-apoc Spherus Magna, but so far in the future that this second civilisation had actually started to mimic that of the original '01 to '03 saga. So there's an Agori/Matoran society but Toa haven't been seen since before The Fall, the land is rampant with a variety of MU Rahi and evolved SM fauna, and the Agori/Matoran society have split off into Koro based on their elements, mimicking stuff found in their 'legends' (which are based on their programming from when the Matoran and co were still a functioning part of the Mata Nui robot, which has all but faded from memory). So there's still a lot of mystery, and we're once again in a geographically diverse land like the island of Mata Nui was, but the difference would be that while we as the audience know the truth for once (something uncommon to BIONICLE, lol). The new society treats mask and elemental powers as magic (since they can't understand it any other way) and in their legends, Mata Nui is once again a god of creation where Makuta is their god of darkness, '01 style.

 

And it's at this point, when the world has started afresh, that the Great Beings return.

 

I don't know how it would go on from there, but that's just an idea I thought was cool. You don't have to agree with me, but personally I quite like this idea, almost as much as the last one. It could offer some interesting twists on the story, and could easily be written so that new fans just see a society with a mysterious past (especially if the Agori and Matoran go by the name of one people, rather than recognising themselves as two, even if that just meant they were called Villagers or Tribesmen) while old fans have the backstory and know that there's a connection between this world and the world of the original saga, now the distant past. Again, for that to work it'd need to be cleverly written, but there are people clever enough to write it.

 

After all, someone wrote BIONICLE in the first place. If there are people creative enough to not only think up the Mata Nui robot idea, but to keep it a secret for nigh on a decade whilst still telling an interesting set of stories, then there are people creative enough to write almost anything, and to write it well. Honestly, I can only dream about being one of those people.

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Teridax, most Makuta, Tahu and Vultraz are pretty egocentric.

 

Luke Skywalker doesn't have an ego (in the films).

 

Just sayin'.

 

It's not about using humans to make it 'better', it's about developing a potentially interesting idea. Potentially interesting. Nobody says we have to agree, since notions of interestingness are subjective. I understand your point, Eightfold Father, as I think the Transformers movies suffer a lot from thinking they need a human anchor (which 2 to 4 don't, and I'd love to see a Fall of Cybertron movie), but it's entirely down to how you write a story. For instance, to say that all action movies lack character development and a meaningful plot clearly shows that whoever says so hasn't seen The Matrix. Likewise, if one thinks all romances starring Katherine Heigl are without merit, you haven't seen 27 Dresses. Weird examples, I know, but they sort of made sense in my head. Sorry if it's too weird, but my point is that you can't make sweeping generalisations and say that "because [this] didn't work when [Writer A] wrote it, [Writer B] and [Writer C], and even [Writer Z] are also doomed to fail". It doesn't work like that.

 

 

And not all humans are terrible. Just remember that it was humans who brought you this wonderful, fantastical universe.

 

I know we're never going to see eye-to-eye on this, so how about we agree to disagree?

I feel like you missed the point, like... Makuta/Tahu/Vultraz etc... are characters that are not human and they have the characteristic of thinking highly of themselves but the story doesn't break away from it's entire main conflict and point to completely center itself on those characters, sacrificing world building and interesting concepts for other species in favor of giving them more screen time (of course, Makuta -- Teridax -- was focused on a lot as part of the story, but that's sort of because he was kind of the main antagonist through all those years).

 

Science Fiction, by and large, suffers from a huge issue when there's humans: Humans become the center of attention. Since humans, Earth, and so forth all become the center of attention the writers sacrifice building meaningful, interesting alien societies/worlds that can provide a fascinating edge/focus to the story, or they try to do so and end up with "we're only really talking about this because the humans need to save them" or "we're only talking about this because the humans did something dumb, but the humans pull themselves out of it somehow" or "we're only talking about this because the humans did something to drive attention over there." And then with tons of films that are out, Earth is (almost always... if not literally always) the battleground -- humans are the focus of the story (ie: Star Wars where almost every major protagonist is human, and a lot of notable antagonists are -- and that doesn't even have Earth. Not to mention Transformers).

 

As a result, there's rarely a need to develop any interesting alien characters, or have them do anything without a human present or build and give depth to their world and society to make the viewer/reader care more about them (like in Mass Effect, where it's a human who's destined to save the day constantly, despite how... everyone else is some sort of alien [well, even then they are aliens that share a lot of physiology and culture with humans, so in some cases it's kind of like seeing a blue or melodramatic fishy [Re: Thane] human... ME, and science fiction in general, does tend to kinda drop the ball with creative and fascinating and unique alien species that are standalone from humans -- then again, even fantasy does suffer from this]).

 

Bionicle's story is unique in the sense that there are no humans to take the story and make it all about themselves. There's no need for humans, no need for Earth to drag down the creative aspects of the story or to hinder the world building thereof. I'd much rather see a unique, standalone world where all the characters are part of it, without going to strange/great lengths to include humans to suddenly become a central force (because they will never be a peripheral force if any other work of fiction is to be regarded). It really wouldn't add anything to the story itself... like, at all, and would likely only spur on poor tropes and cliches science fiction is already filled to the brim with, cutting off meaningful development or creative worldbuilding. (And Bionicle really doesn't need to fall into adding more poor tropes/cliches and lazy cop outs for writing).

 

Not the best with words here, but I think that sort of covers the "Humans in fiction = all about humans 90% of the time, and it detracts from the story and gives the unique species barely any meaningful interaction and development within the overall plot".

Edited by Kitania
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I feel like you missed the point, like... Makuta/Tahu/Vultraz etc... are characters that are not human and they have the characteristic of thinking highly of themselves but the story doesn't break away from it's entire main conflict and point to completely center itself on those characters, sacrificing world building and interesting concepts for other species in favor of giving them more screen time (of course, Makuta -- Teridax -- was focused on a lot as part of the story, but that's sort of because he was kind of the main antagonist through all those years).

 

Science Fiction, by and large, suffers from a huge issue when there's humans: Humans become the center of attention. Since humans, Earth, and so forth all become the center of attention the writers sacrifice building meaningful, interesting alien societies/worlds that can provide a fascinating edge/focus to the story, or they try to do so and end up with "we're only really talking about this because the humans need to save them" or "we're only talking about this because the humans did something dumb, but the humans pull themselves out of it somehow" or "we're only talking about this because the humans did something to drive attention over there." And then with tons of films that are out, Earth is (almost always... if not literally always) the battleground -- humans are the focus of the story (ie: Star Wars where almost every major protagonist is human, and a lot of notable antagonists are -- and that doesn't even have Earth. Not to mention Transformers).

 

As a result, there's rarely a need to develop any interesting alien characters, or have them do anything without a human present or build and give depth to their world and society to make the viewer/reader care more about them (like in Mass Effect, where it's a human who's destined to save the day constantly, despite how... everyone else is some sort of alien [well, even then they are aliens that share a lot of physiology and culture with humans, so in some cases it's kind of like seeing a blue or melodramatic fishy [Re: Thane] human... ME, and science fiction in general, does tend to kinda drop the ball with creative and fascinating and unique alien species that are standalone from humans -- then again, even fantasy does suffer from this]).

 

Bionicle's story is unique in the sense that there are no humans to take the story and make it all about themselves. There's no need for humans, no need for Earth to drag down the creative aspects of the story or to hinder the world building thereof. I'd much rather see a unique, standalone world where all the characters are part of it, without going to strange/great lengths to include humans to suddenly become a central force (because they will never be a peripheral force if any other work of fiction is to be regarded). It really wouldn't add anything to the story itself... like, at all, and would likely only spur on poor tropes and cliches science fiction is already filled to the brim with, cutting off meaningful development or creative worldbuilding. (And Bionicle really doesn't need to fall into adding more poor tropes/cliches and lazy cop outs for writing).

 

Not the best with words here, but I think that sort of covers the "Humans in fiction = all about humans 90% of the time, and it detracts from the story and gives the unique species barely any meaningful interaction and development within the overall plot".

I've decided that I simply have different ideas of why science fiction exists, and specifically how humans fit into it. Because of that, I'll be withdrawing from the discussion of Jam Pot's idea, and basically just "[agreeing] to disagree" as he said earlier. There's nothing wrong with having different ideas of what science fiction should include or strive to do, but mine appear to be pretty different from those of several other members here, and thus I think that it's best if we stop repeatedly pushing our opinions onto each other.

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Not the best with words here, but I think that sort of covers the "Humans in fiction = all about humans 90% of the time, and it detracts from the story and gives the unique species barely any meaningful interaction and development within the overall plot".

Clearly you have never read Issac Asmov's series that were all about robots. On Earth. Among humans. 

 

I do agree that Bionicle doesn't need humans to be interesting though. We already have a half a bazillion underdeveloped characters in-universe without breaking the fourth wall. I would much prefer that the story focus on that instead of adding more unnecessary characters and complications to a story that already has plenty of characters and complications.   

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Not the best with words here, but I think that sort of covers the "Humans in fiction = all about humans 90% of the time, and it detracts from the story and gives the unique species barely any meaningful interaction and development within the overall plot".

Clearly you have never read Issac Asmov's series that were all about robots. On Earth. Among humans.

 

No, I haven't. But one strain of books out of the literal thousands that exist does not disprove the overall point of the argument and does not fix a problem with a genre as a whole. (There is a reason I wrote 90% and not 100%, it's just a way to illustrate "most of the time" and not "all of the time")

Edited by Kitania
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This universe is boring. Keep Bionicle as far away from it as possible. [/opinion]

Let's make this one a bit more interesting then, by bringing Bionicle into it.

 

Let's not. The last thing the Bionicle universe needs is humans becoming the center of attention like they already are in all other science fiction.

 

 

Transformers by Michael Bay. Ugh. Solid movies and excellent action, but I view them as something separate to the Transformers comics and canon I grew up with. Just too many humans, too little Cybertronians. I'd hate to see that happen to the BIONICLE universe.

Edited by JTP117

BIONICLE 2015 - I Believe

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Transformers by Michael Bay. Ugh. Solid movies and excellent action, but I view them as something separate to the Transformers comics and canon I grew up with. Just too many humans, too little Cybertronians. I'd hate to see that happen to the BIONICLE universe.

Could you clarify how this relates to the topic at hand?

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I have a book series I am working on, and it takes place on earth and features a non-human species.  (not aliens; kinda complicated).  literally half the characters aren't human, and the story focuses on the non-humans.  So it is possible, not even difficult, to not focus on humans.  I still like that Bionicle has no humans whatsoever, though.

Since I feel obligated to discuss Bionicle, I would like it if Greg finished the story, perhaps, but I don't think I would like a new story, especially if it left the old one hanging.  Leave Bionicle be.  (That said, I also really want Bionicle back; it was a good story).

 

Edit: I do not think humans in Bionicle would be a good idea, just because I don't think it would go over well.  But if it would, I like the idea.

Edited by Willess12
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On 9/29/2014, Greg Farshtey said:

 

"Just wanted to say a quick something --

 

A lot of you guys are BIONICLE fans, many from way back. It's no secret that you are some of the smartest, most loyal, and most dedicated fans out there. You, and you alone, have carried the torch for the line over the last four years. Hopefully, you will feel rewarded for your efforts by 2015 BIONICLE.

 

Regardless, I wanted to take this opportunity to say that I am really proud to be associated with you, and you should be really proud of yourselves"

 

Ordinarily, I don't do quotes, but this is special.

Fire Ice Water Stone Earth Air... I mean Jungle.
 
Bionicle: The Legacy Hero An attempt to put some magic back into Bionicle.

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Canisters, the canister guy was so right.

 

Who needs derpy resealable baggies with no interesting or redeemable features?

Edited by Wazdakka

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Wants: 2003 Jaller (from Jaller and Gukko), Exo-Toa, Turaga Nuju, Turaga Vakama, Shadow Kraata, Axonn, Brutaka, Vezon & Fenrakk, Nocturn, ORANGE FIKOU.

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I'd start shanking puppies if we put humans in Bionicle. Look at Transformers. The comics and games that are without humans are exponentially better than the G1 cartoons and Michael Bay's movies.

Steam Name: Toa Hahli Mahri. Xbox Live Gamertag: Makuta. Minecraft Username: ThePoohster.

Wants: 2003 Jaller (from Jaller and Gukko), Exo-Toa, Turaga Nuju, Turaga Vakama, Shadow Kraata, Axonn, Brutaka, Vezon & Fenrakk, Nocturn, ORANGE FIKOU.

I got rid of my picture, are you happy?

 

 

 

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Canisters, the canister guy was so right.

 

Who needs derpy resealable baggies with no interesting or redeemable features?

People who value efficiency and hate wasted space? People who find the graphical quality of the latest Hero Factory pouches, with high-quality decorative printing on every inch of the package's surface, simply enthralling? People who already own more canisters than they'll ever need? People who aren't fond of paying for more package and less product?

 

I for one love the pouches. Canisters have charms of their own, but I think the LEGO Group has struck gold with this award-winning package design. It'd be a shame to simply abandon that.

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Good point, but I did love the fact that early canisters had play functions. The Bohrok and Bohrok Kal ones could be used to make a hive, while the Toa Mata's were actual Toa canisters, which I thought was really cool. Just a shame I never had any of the Toa Mata (I came into BIONICLE in '02, from the Toa Nuva onwards).

 

Maybe a combination would be better: Toa could come in canisters and the villains come in pouches, in the second wave. Plus, Titans, Matoran and other sets could be pouches or boxes or whatever, but my point is that they could still use canisters in fewer numbers to be story significant. The pouches work well for Chima, though, both for the Speedorz and for the Ultrabuilds. Last year, I found the Speedorz box things really annoying to open, so the pouches have been a blessing.

 

To be honest, I always got rid of mine anyway, so storage isn't an issue for me, though I am tempted to buy a Toa Mata on ebay just to get a canister, for the first time in my life.

 

On another note, I can't understand why so many people here are 'anti-human'. I do understand that a lot of people here may have been bullied at school (I was, for years) or be a bit of an isolationist, but making the statement that you dislike humans, in fiction and/or in real life? The former I get to an extent, but if you really have no faith in humanity, then I think there are some things you need to come to terms with in your lives but that's a really sad and lonely way to lead them.

 

And Kitania, I didn't miss the point.

Edited by Jam Pot
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On another note, I can't understand why so many people here are 'anti-human'. I do understand that a lot of people here may have been bullied at school (I was, for years) or be a bit of an isolationist, but making the statement that you dislike humans, in fiction and/or in real life?

 

At what point has such a statement been made? Not wanting humans in Bionicle specifically doesn't mean disliking humans generally.

 

And I think you should avoid claiming that other people have likely been bullied or are isolationists simply due to your own history (which, needless to say, only applies to you).

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At what point has such a statement been made? Not wanting humans in Bionicle specifically doesn't mean disliking humans generally.

 

*ahem*

 

 

Believe it or not, when I read science fiction, where anything is possible, I'm not reading it for boring, egocentric humans with their boring, egocentric human problems. Bionicles biggest appeal to me was a completely alien universe with completely alien characters and species, character who we connect with because of their personailities and struggles, not the fact that they share DNA with us. I liked exploring alien worlds, not having humans forced upon me when I read to escape how terrible humans are.

Edited by doodleloot
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On another note, I can't understand why so many people here are 'anti-human'. I do understand that a lot of people here may have been bullied at school (I was, for years) or be a bit of an isolationist, but making the statement that you dislike humans, in fiction and/or in real life?

 

At what point has such a statement been made? Not wanting humans in Bionicle specifically doesn't mean disliking humans generally.

 

And I think you should avoid claiming that other people have likely been bullied or are isolationists simply due to your own history (which, needless to say, only applies to you).

 

 

I'm not putting my own history onto other people, but to say that bullying is uncommon is like saying nobody eats breakfast cereal. Doesn't quite add up.

 

Why is everyone so snarky and condescending around here? I enjoy having a challenging discussion, but saying:

 

I'm...guessing you aren't considering the fact that Greg has said that they aren't in the same universe, and the Bionicle universe doesn't have [all of] the physical laws of the universe a "real reason"?

 

Does this kind of thing strike no-one else as rude?

Edited by Jam Pot
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