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Could Jaller's Hau become a Great Hau?


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#1 Offline Makuta Miras

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Posted May 17 2014 - 04:59 AM

I've been thinking about this for a while, and so I was wondering: if Jaller and his team weren't forced by Karzahni to change their masks, but were still transformed into Toa, would the Noble Hau which Jaller would be wearing become a Great Hau again?


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#2 Online Onarax

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Posted May 17 2014 - 05:04 AM

Maybe. If he went through the same transformation, I don't see why the Noble Hau he wore shouldn't have turned into a Great Organic Hau.

 

Or it could have stayed Noble, but Organic.


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#3 Offline Iron_Man5

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Posted May 17 2014 - 08:53 AM

I'm quite certain that it would. I mean, if powerless matoran masks can be transformed into great masks by toa energy, I'm quite sure that a noble mask could change into a great version. :) you just need to boost up the power a bit. :) You know, a organic Hau would be quite potential... it could override the necessity to work around ambushes, because the mask could possibly sense when the ambush was coming and activate automatically... so much potential. :D

 

(Side note: It's interesting that, if Karzahni hadn't swapped their masks, the Toa Inika would've ended up with the exact mask matchup as the Toa Mata to the very letter lol)


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#4 Online Onarax

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Posted May 17 2014 - 09:12 AM

Indeed.

 

But would his mask still be gold, I wonder?


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#5 Offline Iron_Man5

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Posted May 17 2014 - 09:57 AM

Indeed.

 

But would his mask still be gold, I wonder?

Actually it changed from gold to yellow when Jaller was wearing it (set wise at least, and it looked yellow in the movies as well) so I think it would change red like his Calix did. :)


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#6 Offline Pomegranate

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Posted May 17 2014 - 11:38 AM

 

Indeed.

 

But would his mask still be gold, I wonder?

Actually it changed from gold to yellow when Jaller was wearing it (set wise at least, and it looked yellow in the movies as well) so I think it would change red like his Calix did. :)

 

Wasn't the Calix he was given red already? Or do you mean if it was made as part of the set they'd change it to red? 


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#7 Offline Iron_Man5

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Posted May 17 2014 - 11:56 AM

 

 

Indeed.

 

But would his mask still be gold, I wonder?

Actually it changed from gold to yellow when Jaller was wearing it (set wise at least, and it looked yellow in the movies as well) so I think it would change red like his Calix did. :)

 

Wasn't the Calix he was given red already? Or do you mean if it was made as part of the set they'd change it to red? 

 

We don't know really. Matoran masks are painted though, so the color doesn't really matter methinks. Actually, I really have no idea what affects the color of the toa's mask... it seems to differ from toa to toa, like Lhikan's was gold, Tahu's was red, Norik's was Silver, Jaller's was a darker red (which altered to half orange as a Mahri)


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#8 Offline CriticalMOCer

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Posted May 17 2014 - 12:41 PM

I'm not sure. It could turn into a Great Hau, but then again, nothing in canon has lead me to believe that it is possible, or impossible. Though if it was me deciding whether or not to make it possible, I'd choose impossible, because if it were possible, then you would have less mask makers, and more Toa with the same mask powers, and that would just get boring after awhile.


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#9 Offline ShadowWolfHount

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Posted May 17 2014 - 12:42 PM

Wait, I thought Jaller mask was still a Great Kanohi Hau  :???:

Anyway it would most likely will change back in to the same Kanohi Hau that Toa Lhikan had but would be in a different color (Dark Red).


Edited by ShadowWolfHount, May 17 2014 - 12:43 PM.

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#10 Offline Iron_Man5

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Posted May 17 2014 - 01:05 PM

Wait, I thought Jaller mask was still a Great Kanohi Hau  :???:

Anyway it would most likely will change back in to the same Kanohi Hau that Toa Lhikan had but would be in a different color (Dark Red).

No, Karzahni gave him a new Kanohi during his visit, (the Kanohi Calix, or Mask of Fate) so that's the mask he ended up with as an Inika (it was later changed by the Mask of Life when he became a Mahri)


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#11 Offline fishers64

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Posted May 17 2014 - 02:02 PM

Hmm...I think this qualifies as a good question. But if there's enough energy in the transform to transform a Matoran Kanohi into Great, then I don't see why a Noble Mask would not turn to Great. 
 
Unless Noble Kanohi have a lockchip or something that prevents them from taking on more power, but I doubt it. 
 
Edit: 
 

8. If a Matoran wore a Noble Mask and transformed into a Toa, would their mask become a Great Mask?
 
8) Yes


Edited by fishers64, May 17 2014 - 02:10 PM.

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#12 Offline Iron_Man5

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Posted May 17 2014 - 02:13 PM

 

Hmm...I think this qualifies as a good question. But if there's enough energy in the transform to transform a Matoran Kanohi into Great, then I don't see why a Noble Mask would not turn to Great. 
 
Unless Noble Kanohi have a lockchip or something that prevents them from taking on more power, but I doubt it. 
 
Edit: 
 

8. If a Matoran wore a Noble Mask and transformed into a Toa, would their mask become a Great Mask?
 
8) Yes

 

Well. that pretty much solves that haha


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#13 Offline fishers64

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Posted May 17 2014 - 02:29 PM

 

 

Hmm...I think this qualifies as a good question. But if there's enough energy in the transform to transform a Matoran Kanohi into Great, then I don't see why a Noble Mask would not turn to Great. 
 
Unless Noble Kanohi have a lockchip or something that prevents them from taking on more power, but I doubt it. 
 
Edit: 
 

8. If a Matoran wore a Noble Mask and transformed into a Toa, would their mask become a Great Mask?
 
8) Yes

 

Well. that pretty much solves that haha

 

Except for the color question someone brought up. I think that might go under the "Matoran become their mental image of a Toa" rule. So if Jaller thought that Great Haus on Toa were red (and why not, he was around Tahu), then his Hau would turn red. 

 

Unless the Red Star thing would null that, but then again Jaller got a red mask out of that - we don't know what his Matoran Calix looked like in terms of color, so :shrugs:, but I would bank good odds on his mask turning red.


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#14 Offline bonesiii

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Posted May 17 2014 - 03:13 PM

I'm not sure. It could turn into a Great Hau, but then again, nothing in canon has lead me to believe that it is possible, or impossible. Though if it was me deciding whether or not to make it possible, I'd choose impossible, because if it were possible, then you would have less mask makers, and more Toa with the same mask powers, and that would just get boring after awhile.

The Greg answer above settles this but I wanted to comment anyways. When Vakama's group, and Jaller's, became Toa, they had masks at an even lower power level than Noble (powerless) which all became Great. Clearly the Noble Hau could indeed become a Great Mask (we can know that without needing Greg to tell us with simple logic :P -- although it wouldn't necessarily prove it would happen). This isn't anti-maskmaker, as maskmakers still make the mask either way. The alternative would be risky for the Toa; suddenly they have great power, but that makes them a target for villains. If they then have to physically travel and trade in their Matoran (or Noble) mask for a Great Mask, that makes them an easy mark. If they're somewhere far away from any supply of Great Masks, they're likely to learn how to use their masks long before reaching a trading place. So the transformation likely includes "Great-ifying" for this reason.

 

And I don't see why it would have any effect on how much variety of masks there were.

 

Except for the color question someone brought up. I think that might go under the "Matoran become their mental image of a Toa" rule. So if Jaller thought that Great Haus on Toa were red (and why not, he was around Tahu), then his Hau would turn red.

Probably so. Let's keep in mind we already know the masks can change color. Vakama's Matoran mask was painted orangey-red, became dark red upon Toaization, and then bright orange on Turaga-ization. The paint was likely destroyed in the original transformation. The question is if and why the mask actually would change color (we don't know that it's a neccessity, just that it happens).


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#15 Offline ShadowWolfHount

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Posted May 17 2014 - 03:21 PM

 

Wait, I thought Jaller mask was still a Great Kanohi Hau  :???:

Anyway it would most likely will change back in to the same Kanohi Hau that Toa Lhikan had but would be in a different color (Dark Red).

No, Karzahni gave him a new Kanohi during his visit, (the Kanohi Calix, or Mask of Fate) so that's the mask he ended up with as an Inika (it was later changed by the Mask of Life when he became a Mahri)

 

I know that, I'm talking about when he a Matoran, I'm was not talking about his Inika and his Mahri forms


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#16 Offline fishers64

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Posted May 17 2014 - 04:29 PM

 

Except for the color question someone brought up. I think that might go under the "Matoran become their mental image of a Toa" rule. So if Jaller thought that Great Haus on Toa were red (and why not, he was around Tahu), then his Hau would turn red.

Probably so. Let's keep in mind we already know the masks can change color. Vakama's Matoran mask was painted orangey-red, became dark red upon Toaization, and then bright orange on Turaga-ization. The paint was likely destroyed in the original transformation. The question is if and why the mask actually would change color (we don't know that it's a neccessity, just that it happens).

Not to nitpick, just something to add: Jaller could have assumed that red Toa of Fire usually have red masks, and that would have happened regardless of which mask he was wearing. :shrugs: 

 

It's odd that you bring up Vakama though, because the Toa of Fire he knew (Lhikan) had a gold mask. I guess he could have been around for awhile and seen other fire Toa with red masks and concluded that was the norm, perhaps? :shrugs: 


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#17 Offline Quisoves Pugnat

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Posted May 17 2014 - 05:08 PM

 

 

Except for the color question someone brought up. I think that might go under the "Matoran become their mental image of a Toa" rule. So if Jaller thought that Great Haus on Toa were red (and why not, he was around Tahu), then his Hau would turn red.

Probably so. Let's keep in mind we already know the masks can change color. Vakama's Matoran mask was painted orangey-red, became dark red upon Toaization, and then bright orange on Turaga-ization. The paint was likely destroyed in the original transformation. The question is if and why the mask actually would change color (we don't know that it's a neccessity, just that it happens).

It's odd that you bring up Vakama though, because the Toa of Fire he knew (Lhikan) had a gold mask. I guess he could have been around for awhile and seen other fire Toa with red masks and concluded that was the norm, perhaps? :shrugs:

.

Though it's perfectly possible that Lhikan's golden armor and golden mask were marks of honor forged from special metal like those of the Toa Hagah. The Mangai were a special team, after all.


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#18 Offline Iron_Man5

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Posted May 17 2014 - 05:52 PM

 

 

Wait, I thought Jaller mask was still a Great Kanohi Hau  :???:

Anyway it would most likely will change back in to the same Kanohi Hau that Toa Lhikan had but would be in a different color (Dark Red).

No, Karzahni gave him a new Kanohi during his visit, (the Kanohi Calix, or Mask of Fate) so that's the mask he ended up with as an Inika (it was later changed by the Mask of Life when he became a Mahri)

 

I know that, I'm talking about when he a Matoran, I'm was not talking about his Inika and his Mahri forms

 

Oh my mistake. Jaller wore Lhikan's mask, which was a noble version of the mask of shielding because it was after Lhikan became a Turaga. :)


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#19 Offline bonesiii

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Posted May 17 2014 - 06:12 PM

It's odd that you bring up Vakama though, because the Toa of Fire he knew (Lhikan) had a gold mask. I guess he could have been around for awhile and seen other fire Toa with red masks and concluded that was the norm, perhaps? :shrugs:

Right, that's what I'd presume. Although he wouldn't even have to see them. He's of the Fire element, so it seems unlikely he wouldn't know red is the standard color for Fire anyways.

 

If he's old enough, as I hope he is, he would have lived through the DH/Metru war, when there would have been huge numbers of Ta Toa (probably) there. Some think he might be very young, but we don't know, and either way, all kinds of ways he could learn of it besides seeing one personally.


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#20 Offline Yaldabaoth

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Posted May 17 2014 - 06:44 PM

 

It's odd that you bring up Vakama though, because the Toa of Fire he knew (Lhikan) had a gold mask. I guess he could have been around for awhile and seen other fire Toa with red masks and concluded that was the norm, perhaps? :shrugs:

Right, that's what I'd presume. Although he wouldn't even have to see them. He's of the Fire element, so it seems unlikely he wouldn't know red is the standard color for Fire anyways.

 

If he's old enough, as I hope he is, he would have lived through the DH/Metru war, when there would have been huge numbers of Ta Toa (probably) there. Some think he might be very young, but we don't know, and either way, all kinds of ways he could learn of it besides seeing one personally.

 

 

All that we really know about Vakama's age is that he didn't remember the protocairn attack 15,000 years ago. And we can also assume that it took time -- whether decades, centuries, or even millennia -- for him to become known as the greatest mask-maker in Ta-Metru. That still gives us a wide range of possible ages, which is possibly for the best.


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#21 Online Onarax

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Posted May 17 2014 - 10:52 PM

 

 

It's odd that you bring up Vakama though, because the Toa of Fire he knew (Lhikan) had a gold mask. I guess he could have been around for awhile and seen other fire Toa with red masks and concluded that was the norm, perhaps? :shrugs:

Right, that's what I'd presume. Although he wouldn't even have to see them. He's of the Fire element, so it seems unlikely he wouldn't know red is the standard color for Fire anyways.

 

If he's old enough, as I hope he is, he would have lived through the DH/Metru war, when there would have been huge numbers of Ta Toa (probably) there. Some think he might be very young, but we don't know, and either way, all kinds of ways he could learn of it besides seeing one personally.

 

 

All that we really know about Vakama's age is that he didn't remember the protocairn attack 15,000 years ago. And we can also assume that it took time -- whether decades, centuries, or even millennia -- for him to become known as the greatest mask-maker in Ta-Metru. That still gives us a wide range of possible ages, which is possibly for the best.

 

He could have forgotten. 15,000 years seems like a while.


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#22 Offline fishers64

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Posted May 17 2014 - 11:32 PM

Or it could have been barely a blip on his radar to begin with. He was a Ta-Matoran toolmaker or maskmaker at the time, and the portrayal of those is that they tend to be absorbed in their jobs. :shrugs:


Edited by fishers64, May 17 2014 - 11:32 PM.

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#23 Offline Quisoves Pugnat

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Posted May 18 2014 - 12:15 AM

Or it could have been barely a blip on his radar to begin with. He was a Ta-Matoran toolmaker or maskmaker at the time, and the portrayal of those is that they tend to be absorbed in their jobs. :shrugs:

The attack destroyed the Great Temple, which was a popular tourist destination. I imagine that the destruction of such a landmark, plus the fear generated by the unchecked invasion, would stick in the minds of the populace.

Now I need to dig up my copy of the Legends of Metru Nui book to reread Vakama's initial reaction to Nidhiki. That might help in determining whether or not he lived through the Toa-Dark Hunter War. Granted, he wouldn't be likely to leap to the conclusion that an insectoid monster is actually a former member of the Toa Mangai, as opposed to sharing the same name (however rare an occurrence that might be in the Matoran Universe.) However, since Lhikan clearly recognized him, that might make Vakama wonder. It seems to me odd that he would have known of Toa Nidhiki and not reacted to someone else who is familiar with Lhikan sharing that name.

 

This also brings up the question of how Nidhiki's fate was dealt with publicly. On one hand, the Toa were victorious, so morale would not be a crucial problem. Nonetheless, it would be quite a shock to the populace of Metru Nui for one of their protectors to betray them, so it might be desirable for Dume to declare him dead in the war, thus avoiding making the Matoran suspicious of the Toa.


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#24 Online Onarax

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Posted May 18 2014 - 12:27 AM

It could be possible that he simply faded into the background to be forgotten.


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#25 Offline Norik Of Celtania

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Posted May 18 2014 - 10:46 AM

Yeah there were like hundreds in that war.
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#26 Offline Quisoves Pugnat

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Posted May 18 2014 - 11:22 AM

It could be possible that he simply faded into the background to be forgotten.

But he was a member of the Toa Mangai, a resident of Metru Nui, and had been so for about 1,500 years. His absence would surely have been noticed.


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#27 Offline Pohatu: Master of Stone

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Posted May 18 2014 - 01:46 PM

My signature... it has been taken!!

 

 

 

Meh, it's okay. I don't really care, especially since the smilies are available for anyone on BZPower, and the grammar campaign is just me and my desire for people to strive for good grammar. To answer the question, I do not think a Noble Kanohi can become Great. I think it is one-way, just like Toa to Turaga.


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#28 Offline bonesiii

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Posted May 18 2014 - 02:59 PM

I was going to post a reply to the Vakama/protocairns points above, but as it's come up in multiple topics and I bothered to dig up the actual scene and analyze it, I decided to post it as a new topic:

 

http://www.bzpower.c...cairn-incident/

 

QP, if you do dig up those things about his reaction to Nidhiki, maybe you could post it there for the record? :)

 

 

 

RT: No, it isn't one-way; see fishers' post above with confirmation from Greg. (And again, we saw even powerless masks turn Great with Vakama, etc. so why would you think Noble masks couldn't become Great?) The one-way thing refers to the Matoran, Toa, and Turaga transition. The masks are just brought along for the ride. Basically, if you become a Toa, whatever mask you're wearing at the time is ensured to be a Great Mask at the end of the transformation, regardless of what it was before (except, I'd presume, Legendaries would stay Legendary, but it's highly unlikely a Matoran would be wearing one lol).


Edited by bonesiii, May 18 2014 - 03:00 PM.

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#29 Offline Takhamavahu

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Posted May 18 2014 - 09:25 PM

If someone became a Toa while wearing it then yes, the power upgrading their body would upgrade the mask as well.


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#30 Offline Akavakaku

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Posted May 19 2014 - 02:15 AM

About the color, one of the very first things shown in the storyline was that a mask's color changes to match its wearer's. Vakama Metru was dark red, so his mask was too. Turaga Vakama was orange, so same for his mask. But I'm not sure whether Lhikan was naturally gold or if that was just a special set of gold armor. If the former is true, his mask would change to yellow when Jaller put it on. But I have a feeling it's rather the latter. Jaller DID have a golden mask in MNOG, after all.
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#31 Offline MetaToa

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Posted Jul 01 2014 - 07:48 AM

Absolutely.


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#32 Offline Akavakaku

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Posted Jul 01 2014 - 10:53 AM

Yeah, I think Lhikan's Hau was simply colored gold. But I'd guess that when he first put on the Calix, it turned yellow. Then it turned dark red simply because his colors changed.
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#33 Offline Archon~

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Posted Jul 03 2014 - 05:24 AM

Regarding the coloring, I think that the mask just sort of changes if it's not already the that belongs to the wielder's element.

Now what do I mean by that?

Well let's say Tahu picked up Turaga Matau's noble mask and put it on. In that case, i feel the mask would change colors to fit Tahu's scheme in the best way possible. However, if he took lets say Onua's mask, I think that it would stay black in color since that is one of the colors that fit Tahu's element.

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#34 Offline Iron_Man5

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Posted Jul 03 2014 - 05:40 AM

Regarding the coloring, I think that the mask just sort of changes if it's not already the that belongs to the wielder's element.

Now what do I mean by that?

Well let's say Tahu picked up Turaga Matau's noble mask and put it on. In that case, i feel the mask would change colors to fit Tahu's scheme in the best way possible. However, if he took lets say Onua's mask, I think that it would stay black in color since that is one of the colors that fit Tahu's element.

Actually something happened like that in 2001. When a mask isn't being worn, it turns dark grey and is "inactive" and once a Toa puts it on, it changes color to reflect the Toa wearing it. So, if Onua took off his mask, it would revert to "normal" and then if Tahu put it on, it would turn red. That's just the way the masks work. If Brutaka took Tahu's mask, and wore it, it would probably turn gold, or so forth.


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#35 Offline Akavakaku

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Posted Jul 04 2014 - 02:24 AM

Yes, what I meant was that maybe Lhikan's mask was an exception, and it and his armor were simply colored gold.
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#36 Offline The Skakdi Chronicler

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Posted Aug 01 2014 - 05:39 AM

It is already a Great Hau, and it would (most likely) become organic, thugh i'm not sure for the color

 


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#37 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Aug 01 2014 - 08:28 AM

It is already a Great Hau

No, it's Noble because it was on Lhikan's face when he became a Turaga. It's just in the shape of a Great Hau due to being placed on Jaller's face (for some reason).


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#38 Offline Banana Gunz

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Posted Aug 01 2014 - 12:43 PM

Uhhh, all I got is that some sneaky Av-Matoran must've been sneaking around the whole time...

 

It's possible that Lhikan's was simply made of a different metal/disk, though it still could've changed color when Jaller became a toa because it would've become organic and organic gold seems a little unlikely.

 

Also, it's possible that his mask/armor was infused with extra energy, remember how the Jetrax T6 turned gold when it ran into a Light Stone.

 

Why do certain masks though simply change color, like from orange to red? Well... a matoran's mask is simply painted, and probably doesn't originally have a shade underneath, so when it becomes a Great Kanohi, it probably changes to fit to color scheme of it's wearer, or their element. When it turns into a noble Kanohi, we've seen Vakamas go back to orange, its original color so it probably just returns to the color it once was painted. Lhikan's could be a special case when turned into a turaga because like I said, it could very well be infused with energy or the metal used doesn't usually change color.

 

Sorry if nothing I said makes any sense, I'm just throwing out possibilities, I really think though that there's no particular answer to these questions, it's all based on which colors the designers wanted to give to the sets to keep them interesting.


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#39 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Aug 01 2014 - 05:30 PM

When it turns into a noble Kanohi, we've seen Vakamas go back to orange, its original color so it probably just returns to the color it once was painted.

I would think the paint disappears when in the Toa-ization transformation. Didn't the other five Matoran in that team have masks in basically their Toa colors, and not Turaga?


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#40 Offline Silo

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Posted Aug 02 2014 - 05:28 AM

In 2001 the toa could use noble masks without them turning into great masks.

 

However, to transform a matoran into a toa, a great  amount of energy goes into the matoran, and some of it must also go into his mask.

 

Since noble masks are more powerful than powerless masks whichmost matoran wear, Jaller's great Hau might be more powerful than most great mask since it transformed from a more powerful mask.

 

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