Vakama & The Great Temple Protocairn Incident

[bonesiii]

It's been suggested that a scene in Time Trap may constrain the age of Vakama to well under 15,000 years. That's gotten me curious (in part because I like to think he's been around a lot longer than that ) so I dug up the scene. Here's the scene, and my thoughts. It's from the open of Chapter 7 of Time Trap. Decided to make it a new topic rather than post about it in pieces in other topics. The subject of how old Vakama is has, for some reason, interested me for a long time, and I always wanted to sit down and try to figure it out. Here's my first real attempt.

 

So the question is, does this scene actually demand Vakama had to be younger than 15,000?

 

 

At one time, not so very long ago, the Great Temple had been the grandest, most beautiful building in Metru Nui. Now it was a burned-out ruin, thanks to the Visorak. As he and Makuta approached, Vakama could not take his eyes off of the wrecked structure, as if it were a symbol of all the evil that had befallen his city.

 

"Ah, my brother's temple," said Makuta. "Once so glorious, now dead like the creatures upon which it is built."

 

The strange comment shook Vakama out of his thoughts. "Dead... what are you talking about?"

 

"Many centuries ago, a group of Matoran decided to grasp for greater power," the Dark One explained. "They exposed themselves to energized protodermis, and became reptilian creatures called protocairns. They emerged from the sea just up there and destroyed the shoreline of Ga-Metru, including the Great Temple. Turaga Dume, the fool, had no idea what to do. Fortunately for the city, they died on their own. Their bodies merged together to form a new land mass, including the spit of dirt upon which the current Great Temple sits."

 

"Sounds like one of your plans," Vakama snapped.

 

The 15,000 years comes from the timeline which states that this is when Dume became Turaga of Metru Nui. Does this provide evidence Vakama may be younger than this? Sure. But does it prove it? IMO far from it, and here's some reasons why:

 

1) We only get two lines on the subject from Vakama, and the only thing he didn't know (or remember) at the moment was what Makuta meant about the land being dead creatures. It's possible he knew of the event but had just missed that detail. He could easily have known that the Great Temple was destroyed, and rebuilt, and had simply been too engrossed in his Ta-Metru work to catch the part about the land. His second comment also is about the land being dead.

 

2) Vakama was distracted at the moment, or rather, NOT distracted because he was thinking about his current troubles. His not immediately remembering what Makuta's strange line meant doesn't mean he didn't know about it when it happened. It may only mean he was trying to plan what to do about his rather precarious "alliance" with Makuta. His thoughts go back immediately to that sort of thing after this. It appears Makuta brought it up in part to distract him from his tactical thoughts.

 

3) Makuta seems to have been in a very talkative mood; he goes on to brag about his plans within plans, basically telling Vakama everything he needed to know to realize that much later he would be leading the Toa along, letting them think they were winning, in the Plan (it's confirmed he'd formed at least the basic plan just before Time Trap, while trapped in the protocage). Yet Vakama never factors this to warn the Toa later. This supports Vakama being distracted away from everything Makuta was saying, and Makuta's talkativeness also helps explain why he may have wanted to tell the context behind the dead land comment, whether or not Vakama already knew it.

 

4) The protocairns destroyed the entire Ga-Metru shoreline, not just the Great Temple. It's possible that many millenia later, this may have been the only detail Vakama remembered, not even that the Temple had been destroyed.

 

5) This is a stretch, but Makuta says it happened "many centuries" ago. But 15,000 years (minus the Dark Time, so 14,000 years) can be justifiably called "many millenia ago". It could be much closer to the Great Cataclysm than to Dume's first becoming leader. If this is correct, then either Vakama is REALLY young or this scene clearly doesn't imply anything about his age. It seems unlikely somebody super-young would already be the best maskmaker.

 

6) There were a LOT of other things that happened, and actually the older you are, the LESS likely to instantly recall any particular one. So this could work even more strongly as evidence the other way. When I was young, every current event seemed like one of the most important things to ever happen, but as time wears on, events of the same magnitude seem to blur together and seem much less memorable. Multiply that times many millenia, and you could easily forget details (or entire events), even of such magnitude as an entire region's coast being destroyed. (Who can remember every single devastating hurricane in their own lifespan, for example?)

 

7) You have to remember the out-story reasons this bit was in the book. Makuta's speech reads a bit like an info dump; it's more likely that it's included because readers don't know it (and Greg had to work protocairns in somewhere since they were a combiner set), rather than Vakama not knowing it. And it provided a reason to add to the theme of Makuta being pleased at destruction happening to "his brother's" temple, and make the villain look more in command of historical facts than the hero, helping to add to the sense that Vakama was way in over his head.

 

8) Connected to above, there are many other instances in the story where such info dumpey things are included and the people hearing them definitely should have already known it, and it's clear either the story producers forgot that detail, or weren't concerned with it anyways. It's more dramatic to have an info dump tied into a personality conflict like Greg used here rather than a pure info dump in the narration. Quite possibly Greg never worried about whether Vakama was alive at the time or just forgot it, etc. So Vakama probably was just playing the plot device role of the ignorant character who asks an informed character to say something that the author wants to communicate. Many, many stories will stretch the plausibility of the ignorant character in order to do this.

 

9) Earlier there's a scene where they go through pipes that used to connect to the Great Temple, but Vakama is aware they were replaced later, so the pipes were unused by the time of the Visorak attack. We don't know that these were pipes to the original Temple, so it may be irrelevant. If so, though, it could imply Vakama was indeed aware of the rebuilding, and just forgot the land part.

 

10) It's possible Dume kept the origin of that land a secret from the Matoran as they may have been too creeped out by it, but was unable to keep it a secret from the Makuta of Metru Nui. Especially consistent with points #9 and #1; Vakama might know "protocairns destroyed many buildings on coastline, Matoran evacuated, and later Dume allowed them back in, protocairns mysteriously gone, and there was barren land to rebuild on." Everybody might have assumed that land was just what the previous coast would look like if exposed, and Dume might have let them go on thinking that.

 

11) Someone pointed out in a topic just now that the destruction of the Great Temple would have been a very emotional thing for the entire population. But, what I would have just said if I was only going to put this as a reply is, that would be equally true, or maybe even more true, if you came into being after it. It could be like "are you smarter than a fifth grader". Youngster Vakama might be more likely to know it as he'd probably read a basic history text and it could be more fresh in his mind, while old fogey Vakama might not keep up as much with current events news.

 

12) Makuta obviously had great emotional reason to remember it with pride, too, while the Matoran probably would rather forget it.

 

 

 

Now, just FTR, here's the major events that happen involving Metru Nui after 15,000 years ago (YA), or 14,000 Before Great Cataclysm (BGC) that we know of: TSO first tries to take over Metru Nui with Kanohi Dragon attack 4000 YA / 3000 BGC), many subsequent attacks of various forms, Tuyet's serial killings (~2500 BGC), DH war on Metru Nui (2000 BGC), Great-Being-made Rahi invasion (date unknown but between 2000 BGC & 1 BGC). death of Lhikan's team except Lhikan (1 BGC).

 

Here's major events Vakama wouldn't be able to witness if indeed he was younger than 14,000 BGC, in reverse order: Time Slip and Takua entering Metru Nui (60,000 YA; 59,000 BGC), Metru Nui golden age begins (78,000 BGC), Matoran Civil War, Archives Massacre, Teridax made Makuta of Metru Nui, Convocation and Teridax becomes leader of Brotherhood (between 78,500 BGC & 78,100 BGC), formation of Dark Hunters (uncertain time but before 69,000 YA), League's defeat (79,000 BGC), League's trade pact with Metru Nui (86,000 BGC), League's formation (93,000 BGC), year of the Great Spirit's first awakening (100,000 YA; 99,000 BGC).

 

 

It's also been suggested that Vakama might not remember Nidhiki, which would put him possibly before 2000 BGC (the DH war on Metru Nui), but I haven't search the story sources for anything relevant to this. If so, the only major timeline events (for Metru Nui) he would have been alive during would be the "First Rahi" invasion, and the death of the rest of Lhikan's team.

 

One piece of evidence that he could be this young is the statement that he "quickly" rose in the ranks of maskmakers. However, this isn't necessarily relevant, as he could have quickly risen in the ranks long ago, and "quickly" compared to a vast lifespan could actually be a long time. But it makes it possible that he could be as young as even less than 2000 years during Time Trap.

 

 

The main reason I wondered this is that prior to hearing the protocairn incident brought up in S&T in relation to Vakama's age, I had written my retelling with him alive as early as at least the Matoran Civil War. It's too late to change this now, so if he IS younger, oh well (but the points 1-12 raised above help make that work anyways). But if somebody else wants to do canon-fitting fanfics and play it extra safe, I would suggest keeping him younger than around 4000 years at the Great Cataclysm, and maybe (maybe) 2000.

 

Or you could just ignore all this. But I found it interesting enough to consider. If anyone else cares enough, I'd suggest looking into any lines involving Vakama and Nidhiki to see if there's any evidence there one way or another.

 

Thunks?

Edited May 18, 2014 by bonesiii

[TERIDAX941]

You... certainly put a lot of thought into this haha... makes my head spin just trying to figure all those possibilities... lol

 

But you do have some really good points. Very thought out I dare say.

[The 1st Shadow]

I agree that it's just possibly casual information that he didn't bother to remember amongst his other memories built up over the course of many thousands of years.

 

As for the Nidhiki thing, why would he need to remember him? We know Vakama had interacted with Lhikan, but no one ever said he had interacted with the other Toa Mangai. Besides, he would only have recognized Nidhiki's Toa form, and I like to think that Nidhiki's voice changed when he was mutated. So, if Vakama had only known Toa Nidhiki by name and face, there's no reason he should have recognized him.

 

[bonesiii]

So, if Vakama had only known Toa Nidhiki by name and face, there's no reason he should have recognized him.

As I understood it, people were talking about the name, certainly not recognizing his appearance obviously. And if indeed he didn't know the name, I'd find that odd. Matoran look up to and commemorate Toa heroes, and he did serve in Metru Nui at a time when there weren't a lot of others. Plus, his treason was possibly famous (unless the Toa kept that from the Matoran... I dunno). But I really have no idea if it's true he didn't remember him or not at this point.

[fishers64]

In Mystery of Metru Nui Nidhiki is mentioned as the "monster that walks on four legs", not as N, and it's sort of implied that Vakama didn't know who he was. (Only Lhikan is said to recognize him, and that's later in the movie novelization when he was fighting him.)

Hmm...memory blurry, but the movie doesn't refer to him as Nidhiki anywhere (Except for the infamous "Get Nidhiki" line... and Onewa could have drawn that detail out of the brute's mind). The "You lost the right to call me brother long ago!" line refers to that fact, but I don't think Lhikan actually called him Nidhiki. Even if he did, I doubt Vakama would remember in the middle of a fight when he's scared for his life.

 

[EDIT: A quick rewatch reveals that L didn't call him Nidihiki during the start battle of LoMN. ]

 

Vakama and the others being young (and ignorant) would explain the other's resentment at being outmatched though. Nobody likes being outclassed by a newb.

Edited May 19, 2014 by fishers64

[Quisoves Potoo]

You've put together a commendable compendium, Bonesii. Thanks.

 

I found my copy of Adventures #4. This is, I think, the passage we've been looking for:

 

"Some of us take our duty seriously, Nidhiki," growled Lhikan. Then he turned to Vakama, gestured to the package, and whispered, "Keep it safe. Get to the Great Temple."

Nidhiki raised his claws. "This time your farewell will be forever, brother."

"You lost the right to call me brother long ago," said Lhikan.

 

Anyone observing this who knew that a member of the Toa Mangai had been called "Nidhiki" would almost certainly understand what Lhikan and Nidhiki are saying. However, Mystery of Metru Nui indicates, as fishers64 pointed out, that Vakama was unaware of Nidhiki's identity:

 

Vakama, Ta-Metru's most skilled mask maker and the new Toa of Fire, looked down at his new form. It was hard to believe that this new power had been granted to him. He remembered the city's protector Toa Lhikan, giving him a powerful artifact called a Toa stone and a map to a spot in the Great Temple. Then Lhikan was captured by two strange creatures, one a four-legged foe and the other huge and powerful.

Nidhiki's name doesn't seem important to Vakama. When he is referred to again, four pages later, he is called only "a four-legged creature," "that figure," and "this being."

 

While there are a number of possible reasons for Vakama not remembering a Toa whom he had shared an island with for about 1,500 years, it seems likeliest that he is simply too young to remember him.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Quisoves Pugnat

[bonesiii]

Thanks for those quotes.

 

Worth mentioning that Mystery of Metru Nui (the one that didn't call him by name) was written first, and meant to be read first; the reader wasn't supposed to know Nidhiki's history at the time. The movie by contrast comes afterward and could simply be seen as adding detail to the summary of movie-related events that the other book (which was instead about Morbuzakh events) tries not to show clearly. So again I don't think the purpose was to tell us "Vakama is too young to know what the name Nidhiki refers to" but to save movie-focused plot for the movie.

 

In the absence of any line saying "Vakama didn't understand why Lhikan said this 'Nidhiki' was once a brother", I wouldn't read anything into those as certain. It could just be the narrator inserting a secrecy principle and hiding Vakama's awareness of Nidhiki's identity from the reader. Then the later book could be taken as revealing (by strong implication) that indeed Vakama did realize who Nidhiki was, since he didn't have any thoughts about this being confusing or surprising. In fact it's probably likely that everybody knew Nidhiki was a DH and had a different form now, since he would have been going on missions in that form throughout the MU, and Greg has said that word tends to travel fast in the MU.

 

It's also possible that he simply didn't catch those lines, or had been too stressed/traumatized during the attack to hold onto the memory of them clearly. (Plus, he could easily be confused by Nidhiki's shape, if in fact he didn't know about it, and assumed he must have heard the name wrong.)

 

But I agree it does seem simpler in that case to simply theorize that he's very young. It's just that simpler doesn't always mean better, if details that counter a theory realistically are likely. And it does not at all seem likely that Greg had any intention of speaking to Vakama's age when he wrote it that way, so I'd say easy may mean premature in this case.

Edited May 19, 2014 by bonesiii

[Takhamavahu]

It's an interesting possibility, but just because Vakama doesn't remember the story, or hadn't heard it the way Makuta tells it, doesn't mean he wasn't alive at the time.
But it's entirely possible. New matoran were coming from Artakha every once in a while all the way up until Teridax replaced Dume and locked up the city, weren't they?

[V-N]

Lhikan was the leader of what, about 10 other Toa? As the same element as Vakama, it makes sense he would be more prominent to the maskmaker. Vakama could still know the names of the other Toa, but not necessarily all of them. Nidhiki just might be one of those Vakama never became acquainted with.

 

Also, I find it strange that, despite the lack of surnames, no two characters are ever shown to have the same name. Of course, that was to prevent confusion among fans, but it still might exist. The point is, the name Nidhiki could just be the BIONICLE equivalent of Smith, and Vakama thought the Dark Hunter shared a common name with a near-forgotten Toa of air and didn't make the connection.

 

(That last paragraph is probably far-fetched, LOL)

[bonesiii]

But it's entirely possible. New matoran were coming from Artakha every once in a while all the way up until Teridax replaced Dume and locked up the city, weren't they?

New Matoran were coming into being on Metru Nui to replace ones who died (like Ihu), but to the part I put in bold, no, nobody ever leaves Artakha (at least not since looong ago, and at least not normally). You're probably confusing two different things -- the machines in Metru Nui and various other places that made new Matoran, and the Mask of Creation in Artakha. Some special characters (like the Toa Mata) were made in Artakha 100,000 years ago (at story present), and did leave, but the vast majority of others weren't made there.

 

Also, I find it strange that, despite the lack of surnames, no two characters are ever shown to have the same name.

Not technically so; Karzahni the tyrant and the Karzahni plant. But that's because the plant was named after the tyrant. Anyways...

 

Of course, that was to prevent confusion among fans, but it still might exist. The point is, the name Nidhiki could just be the BIONICLE equivalent of Smith, and Vakama thought the Dark Hunter shared a common name with a near-forgotten Toa of air and didn't make the connection.

 

(That last paragraph is probably far-fetched, LOL)

Could be. Still, I like to think there's some sort of database of existing names and word parts, and they mix their own names and check it to make sure it's new. Also, against the entire population (living and dead) of the Matoran Universe it might seem strange, but just in Metru Nui it's not; there's only 1000 (currently alive at any one time, and that's just Matoran, though).

 

But Nidhiki could still be similar to a common group of names. Variations on the vowels and a consonant here and there, combined with Vakama thinking he probably heard it wrong, could work. (Still, it seems unlikely that the entire population doesn't know of Nidhiki, whether they came into being later and heard the tales, or whether they lived through it. Especially since the rest of the team formerly including Nidhiki (and Tuyet) was still active at the time, prior to 1 GC, so would provide reasons to talk about it constantly.)

Edited May 19, 2014 by bonesiii

[Quisoves Potoo]

In the absence of any line saying "Vakama didn't understand why Lhikan said this 'Nidhiki' was once a brother", I wouldn't read anything into those as certain. It could just be the narrator inserting a secrecy principle and hiding Vakama's awareness of Nidhiki's identity from the reader. Then the later book could be taken as revealing (by strong implication) that indeed Vakama did realize who Nidhiki was, since he didn't have any thoughts about this being confusing or surprising. In fact it's probably likely that everybody knew Nidhiki was a DH and had a different form now, since he would have been going on missions in that form throughout the MU, and Greg has said that word tends to travel fast in the MU.

The problem here is that the book's narration in scenes featuring Ahkmou and Nidhiki together refers to the latter by name. This happens both before and after the passage I cited. This presumably is supposed to suggest that Ahkmou is familiar with Nidhiki, whereas Vakama is not. In fact, having looked at Trial by Fire since I last posted, I see that the Toa Metru indicate in their dialogue that they don't know Nidhiki's identity:

 

"And you think one of the Matoran betrayed the others?" asked Nuju. "What about that four-legged monster and his friend? Couldn't they be behind all of this?"

Vakama hesitated. Nokama leaned over and said, "Go ahead, Vakama. Tell us."

"I've seen the four-legged one before," Vakama said quietly.

And two pages later:

 

"Our job has just begun," said Nokama. "If Ahkmou has betrayed Metru Nui, he is a danger to us all, and so is that Nidhiki."

Even Nokama, who is confirmed via "The Many Deaths of Toa Tuyet" to have been alive at the time of Nidhiki's residence in Metru Nui (and acquainted with Tuyet, no less,) doesn't wittingly mention the treacherous Toa of Air directly. So the name "Nidhiki" was certainly not enough to make one seriously think "He's a treacherous ex-Toa Mangai." Vakama, however, has heard enough to make the connection had he known of Nidhiki beforehand. However, it's also possible that the experience was so traumatic that he forgot what he heard. After all, he seemed to have forgotten seeing Krekka.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Quisoves Pugnat

[25K Now!]

In the beginning, Vakama was a pretty shy and introverted guy. I've always thought he just kept to Ta-metru doing his own little thing, ignoring quite a bit of what went on outside his home, which could explain his lack of knowledge.

[Quisoves Potoo]

In the beginning, Vakama was a pretty shy and introverted guy. I've always thought he just kept to Ta-metru doing his own little thing, ignoring quite a bit of what went on outside his home, which could explain his lack of knowledge.

Even if that was the case, it seems unlikely that he would never have heard of Toa Nidhiki if he lived on the island at the same time. That would be like Tiribomba not knowing who Lewa is.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Quisoves Pugnat

[SarracenianKaijin]

Don't you know its rude to ask people their age?

[bonesiii]

lol @ above =)

 

The problem here is that the book's narration in scenes featuring Ahkmou and Nidhiki together refers to the latter by name. This happens both before and after the passage I cited. This presumably is supposed to suggest that Ahkmou is familiar with Nidhiki, whereas Vakama is not.

Alright, fair enough. But still, the movie scene probably wasn't known to Greg at the time he wrote that either way.

 

Even Nokama, who is confirmed via "The Many Deaths of Toa Tuyet" to have been alive at the time of Nidhiki's residence in Metru Nui (and acquainted with Tuyet, no less,) doesn't wittingly mention the treacherous Toa of Air directly. So the name "Nidhiki" was certainly not enough to make one seriously think "He's a treacherous ex-Toa Mangai."

Hm... I'd think it would certainly be enough. If we know Nokama was there, but reacted similarly to Vakama at the name, I'd say that's evidence Vakama probably was too. That sounds like many other little things in Bionicle, this is just a case of Greg writing those scenes before deciding that in fact those characters would have known something. You can take things like that two ways -- and I enjoy both sometimes -- keep them exactly how they're worded and come up with explanations to work around them, or assume that if Greg were to take the time to carefully go through eeeeeverything and retcon any contradictions, the later portrayals are more accurate than the former. In this case, personally I'd rather go with the latter, if no good workaround can be found. Although:

 

Vakama, however, has heard enough to make the connection had he known of Nidhiki beforehand. However, it's also possible that the experience was so traumatic that he forgot what he heard. After all, he seemed to have forgotten seeing Krekka.

This one does seem likely. After all, that would be pretty traumatic. I think a combination of this, plus that it was chaotic and he might not have heard clearly or been consciously focused on it, is likely.

 

That would be like Tiribomba not knowing who Lewa is.

Mostly, yeah, but to be fair, it wouldn't be quite the same. You could make a case that stable, long-established society of jobs that Matoran are engrossed in is more likely to make them not know things like that than a survival situation, under seige by the Rahi, and eventually having to be led to a whole 'nother home. Vakama could reasonably not interact with Nidhiki at all, though likeisay, whether young or old you'd think every Metru Nui Matoran would hear the tale of the traitor Toa.

 

Unless that was a case of the Toa keeping it secret. :shrugs:

Edited May 19, 2014 by bonesiii

[fishers64]

 

In the absence of any line saying "Vakama didn't understand why Lhikan said this 'Nidhiki' was once a brother", I wouldn't read anything into those as certain. It could just be the narrator inserting a secrecy principle and hiding Vakama's awareness of Nidhiki's identity from the reader. Then the later book could be taken as revealing (by strong implication) that indeed Vakama did realize who Nidhiki was, since he didn't have any thoughts about this being confusing or surprising. In fact it's probably likely that everybody knew Nidhiki was a DH and had a different form now, since he would have been going on missions in that form throughout the MU, and Greg has said that word tends to travel fast in the MU.

The problem here is that the book's narration in scenes featuring Ahkmou and Nidhiki together refers to the latter by name. This happens both before and after the passage I cited. This presumably is supposed to suggest that Ahkmou is familiar with Nidhiki, whereas Vakama is not. In fact, having looked at Trial by Fire since I last posted, I see that the Toa Metru indicate in their dialogue that they don't know Nidhiki's identity:

 

"And you think one of the Matoran betrayed the others?" asked Nuju. "What about that four-legged monster and his friend? Couldn't they be behind all of this?"

Vakama hesitated. Nokama leaned over and said, "Go ahead, Vakama. Tell us."

"I've seen the four-legged one before," Vakama said quietly.

And two pages later:

 

"Our job has just begun," said Nokama. "If Ahkmou has betrayed Metru Nui, he is a danger to us all, and so is that Nidhiki."

Even Nokama, who is confirmed via "The Many Deaths of Toa Tuyet" to have been alive at the time of Nidhiki's residence in Metru Nui (and acquainted with Tuyet, no less,) doesn't wittingly mention the treacherous Toa of Air directly. So the name "Nidhiki" was certainly not enough to make one seriously think "He's a treacherous ex-Toa Mangai." Vakama, however, has heard enough to make the connection had he known of Nidhiki beforehand. However, it's also possible that the experience was so traumatic that he forgot what he heard. After all, he seemed to have forgotten seeing Krekka.

 

It's worth noting that these quotes are actually from the end of Mystery of Metru Nui. Onewa mentions that Ahkmou called the monster Nidhiki in between the two quotes.

 

However, this might explain it:

 

6) Do the Matoran know about Nidhiki's betrayel?

 

Greg: No. Telling Matoran, "Hey, a Toa went evil:" would undermine confidence in all Toa, everywhere, so they were never told

[Quisoves Potoo]

It's worth noting that these quotes are actually from the end of Mystery of Metru Nui. Onewa mentions that Ahkmou called the monster Nidhiki in between the two quotes.

 

However, this might explain it:

 

6) Do the Matoran know about Nidhiki's betrayel?

 

Greg: No. Telling Matoran, "Hey, a Toa went evil:" would undermine confidence in all Toa, everywhere, so they were never told

 

This certainly helps explain even further why no-one but Lhikan would even consider Nidhiki's true identity. Nonetheless, Nidhiki's disapperence had to be explained somehow, presumably by a false proclamation of his death. And anyone who had been alive when Nidhiki came to Metru Nui would certainly have remembered him, given that he was one of Metru Nui's first permanent Toa team. Normally, I would think this would place a firm limit on Vakama's age, but as I said before, his initial encounter with Nidhiki seems to have been so traumatic that he forgot seeing Krekka or was too shocked to notice him. So it looks like we're stuck with the Protocairn incident as any sort of reliable evidence of his age.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Quisoves Pugnat

[bonesiii]

Except that their not telling the Matoran about a traitor Toa seems to add evidence to the idea that Dume might not have told the Matoran about the Protocairns becoming the land they rebuilt on either. Looks to me like we've got no reliable evidence either way.

[Quisoves Potoo]

Except that their not telling the Matoran about a traitor Toa seems to add evidence to the idea that Dume might not have told the Matoran about the Protocairns becoming the land they rebuilt on either. Looks to me like we've got no reliable evidence either way.

However, Nidhiki's betrayal was very easy to cover up. He disappeared at the end of a war. A statement declaring him dead was perfectly believable. On the other hand, the wholesale destruction of the Ga-Metru coastline and of the Great Temple is a very different matter. I'm not certain that that could be covered up. I imagine that word of the invasion would have spread too quickly for Dume to do so.

EDIT: Factor in airships, and it seems almost certain that the destruction of the coastline would have been noticed by someone not working directly for Dume.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Quisoves Pugnat

[bonesiii]

On the other hand, the wholesale destruction of the Ga-Metru coastline and of the Great Temple is a very different matter. I'm not certain that that could be covered up. I imagine that word of the invasion would have spread too quickly for Dume to do so.

Like I implied in the first post, it would actually be pretty easy. Keep in mind this probably happened (due to the "centuries" line) after the invention of Vahki (though we don't actually know exactly when that was). The way I pictured when I wrote this part of the first post is, as soon as it became clear how dangerous these things were, all the Matoran would be evacuated from the coast, and Vahki instead handled the fighting, reporting directly to Dume. So, he could witness the land thing, without any Matoran witnessing it. It would then be entirely his choice whether to reveal it to them or not.

 

The only reason the Matoran would have to see this is if they were being asked to fight the protocairns or at least monitor them, and I suspect Dume would instead want to keep them safe. Even if Vahki weren't yet invented, he'd probably be hoping to call upon the Makuta or Toa (if this was before the Toa Mangai came) from other lands, rather than risk Matoran lives. So by the time they all up and died, IMO it's likely no Matoran would be watching, if you think about it.

 

For the same basic reason no Matoran witnessed Nidhiki's betrayal, in fact. They weren't hanging around watching the battle; they were kept away from the main danger.

 

EDIT: Factor in airships, and it seems almost certain that the destruction of the coastline would have been noticed by someone not working directly for Dume.

Maybe, but most airships are automated. Unless they were ordered to monitor them, I doubt that would be the case. And how do you know the people ordered to monitor this (or who might have witnessed it on their own) weren't sworn by Dume to secrecy? Just because somebody sees it doesn't mean Vakama hears about it. Probably either way they would report to Dume first to tell him the disturbing but useful news about the land, and then he could order them not to tell anyone.

 

Really, without only a thousand Matoran on that huge island, even without evacuation orders it's hypothetically possible no Matoran would happen to witness the actual attack, at least if it occurred swiftly enough. With an evacuation, it's easy.

Edited May 20, 2014 by bonesiii

[Quisoves Potoo]

 

On the other hand, the wholesale destruction of the Ga-Metru coastline and of the Great Temple is a very different matter. I'm not certain that that could be covered up. I imagine that word of the invasion would have spread too quickly for Dume to do so.

Like I implied in the first post, it would actually be pretty easy. Keep in mind this probably happened (due to the "centuries" line) after the invention of Vahki (though we don't actually know exactly when that was). The way I pictured when I wrote this part of the first post is, as soon as it became clear how dangerous these things were, all the Matoran would be evacuated from the coast, and Vahki instead handled the fighting, reporting directly to Dume. So, he could witness the land thing, without any Matoran witnessing it. It would then be entirely his choice whether to reveal it to them or not.

 

The only reason the Matoran would have to see this is if they were being asked to fight the protocairns or at least monitor them, and I suspect Dume would instead want to keep them safe. Even if Vahki weren't yet invented, he'd probably be hoping to call upon the Makuta or Toa (if this was before the Toa Mangai came) from other lands, rather than risk Matoran lives. So by the time they all up and died, IMO it's likely no Matoran would be watching, if you think about it.

 

For the same basic reason no Matoran witnessed Nidhiki's betrayal, in fact. They weren't hanging around watching the battle; they were kept away from the main danger.

 

EDIT: Factor in airships, and it seems almost certain that the destruction of the coastline would have been noticed by someone not working directly for Dume.

Maybe, but most airships are automated. Unless they were ordered to monitor them, I doubt that would be the case. And how do you know the people ordered to monitor this (or who might have witnessed it on their own) weren't sworn by Dume to secrecy? Just because somebody sees it doesn't mean Vakama hears about it. Probably either way they would report to Dume first to tell him the disturbing but useful news about the land, and then he could order them not to tell anyone.

 

Really, without only a thousand Matoran on that huge island, even without evacuation orders it's hypothetically possible no Matoran would happen to witness the actual attack, at least if it occurred swiftly enough. With an evacuation, it's easy.

 

I see your point about airships, and I agree with most of your other ones. However, the way that Metru Nui is arranged, the coastline of Ga-Metru is potentially visible from Ta-Metru, Po-Metru, and the center of the city. As shown here. If Makuta truly means that the entire coastline was destroyed, then it seems likely that multiple persons with enough of a vantage point would have noticed its absence.

[fishers64]

Would they really have a vantage point? There's a considerable amount of water in between the Ta- and Ga- and Po- and Ga-. Even if a Ta-Matoran happened to see it though, would his interest disrupt the focus of a work-absorbed overachieving mask maker?

 

Also consider this map, which places Vakama's foundry on the opposite side of the map from the Ga-Metru coast.

[bonesiii]

Yeah, you could easily fit ~167 Ta-Matoran in places of Ta-Metru that don't happen to overlook that point. And the Po-Matoran assembler's villages we've seen so far are in canyons. But Ta-Metru does have skyscrapers, and I could see some of them being curious to see them. Especially given that (apparently, according to the set form anyways) they breathe fire. (But they could do this early in the attack, without happening to see the end.)

 

As for if it's the entire coastline, Greg would have to be asked to be sure, but I'd presume not, because statistically it would be odd for them to destroy all of one region's coast but not even a little of either of the neighboring regions.

Edited May 20, 2014 by bonesiii

[Quisoves Potoo]

Would they really have a vantage point? There's a considerable amount of water in between the Ta- and Ga- and Po- and Ga-. Even if a Ta-Matoran happened to see it though, would his interest disrupt the focus of a work-absorbed overachieving mask maker?

 

Also consider this map, which places Vakama's foundry on the opposite side of the map from the Ga-Metru coast.

What Vakama saw is irrelevant. What matters is whether or not news of the coastlines destruction reached the general populace at the time. I think that it likely did, given that tall buildings were, I think, fairly common in Metru Nui. Also, the island is about 21 miles wide, which makes it all the more feasible that the coastline's absence would have been noticed by multiple persons.

 

As for if it's the entire coastline, Greg would have to be asked to be sure, but I'd presume not, because statistically it would be odd for them to destroy all of one region's coast but not even a little of either of the neighboring regions.

You have a point. Though it is possible that Dume ordered the bridges to other Metrus destroyed, in which case the Protocairns might have decided to focus on the land they could reach most easily rather than re-enter the water. It does seem something of a stretch though.

[bonesiii]

I was thinking of fog earlier too, but thought it was possibly too rare to bring up, but come to think of it, if the protocairns do indeed breathe fire, there could be a lot of smoke to obscure the view.

[fishers64]

I was thinking of fog earlier too, but thought it was possibly too rare to bring up, but come to think of it, if the protocairns do indeed breathe fire, there could be a lot of smoke to obscure the view.

But if fog obscured the coastline, and that was a rare thing - wouldn't that be noted by any Ta-Matoran viewers, and wouldn't questions be asked?

 

Although it could explain why the protocairns stuck to Ga-Metru - the fog disoriented them and they got lost. Could have led to their demise too.

[Quisoves Potoo]

I hadn't thought of that before, but fog makes complete sense, provided the Protocairns breath fire (which, given their model, seems to be the case. I doubt that's a tongue )

 

 

Interestingly enough, BS01 claims that "even the Vahki on Metru Nui had little success against [the Protocairns.]" I don't know where it got this information, but since BS01 is usually reliable, I think we can take it on good faith that the Vahki were invented at the time of the invasion.

[bonesiii]

But if fog obscured the coastline, and that was a rare thing - wouldn't that be noted by any Ta-Matoran viewers, and wouldn't questions be asked?

What questions do you have in mind? (Also, I was proposing smoke from protocairns, not rare fog. I thought I made that clear; I rejected suggesting fog because it's rare... At least, I think it's rare lol... The smoke that I actually proposed presumably wouldn't be rare, in fact it would go with protocairns 100% of the time, I'd think -- at least assuming they breathe fire normally as part of their attacking the land and buildings.)

 

After the initial sighting and seeing them breathe fire, I'd think they'd see it as obvious why there was smoke obscuring their view from afar. Some Ta-Matoran might still want to see what's happening, especially due to the fire-breathing, but when the smoke made that impossible, they'd probably just shrug, get back to work, and hope the Vahki could handle it.

 

The question of whether the land that is seen later, once the smoke clears, was made by dying protocairns is highly unlikely to come up; if they didn't see it themselves (or be told it by Dume who would "see" it via Vahki), it would probably never occur to them. They would probably just assume the protocairns decided to leave, or perhaps died and fell into the sea or something, and that the land they now saw was just what Ga-Metru would look like without the plants and buildings, etc.

 

And the only thing we know that Vakama didn't know is the protocairns = land thing. I'd say this now looks like a very reasonable explanation. If so, it would mean the protocairns incident is completely irrelevant to his age.

 

Interestingly enough, BS01 claims that "even the Vahki on Metru Nui had little success against [the Protocairns.]" I don't know where it got this information, but since BS01 is usually reliable, I think we can take it on good faith that the Vahki were invented at the time of the invasion.

In this case I wouldn't rely on that. It is probably a deduction from the assumptions that the protocairns incident was recent ("many centuries ago", not millenia, although I also wouldn't put much weight on that either as other times terms like "years" have been used for many millenia in Bionicle), and that Vahki were probably invented fairly early in Dume's reign (and according to the timeline, it was 3000 BGC at the very latest, and times before that could justifiably be called "many centuries"). Although it's certainly possible somebody did happen to ask Greg about it.

 

Then again, that is a reasonable deduction even if it's not confirmed, so I do think Vahki were probably there.

Edited May 20, 2014 by bonesiii

[ALVIS]

Interestingly enough, BS01 claims that "even the Vahki on Metru Nui had little success against [the Protocairns.]" I don't know where it got this information, but since BS01 is usually reliable, I think we can take it on good faith that the Vahki were invented at the time of the invasion.

 

IIRC, the Protocairns were first featured in either a LEGO magazine or a BIONICLE comic promotional feature. That's probably where they got the information, but since BS01 doesn't document either of those sources, it's not easy to trace.

[fishers64]

 

But if fog obscured the coastline, and that was a rare thing - wouldn't that be noted by any Ta-Matoran viewers, and wouldn't questions be asked?

What questions do you have in mind?

 

Like..."We haven't seen fog over Ga-Metru before. What's going on?"

 

(Also, I was proposing smoke from protocairns, not rare fog. I thought I made that clear; I rejected suggesting fog because it's rare... At least, I think it's rare lol... The smoke that I actually proposed presumably wouldn't be rare, in fact it would go with protocairns 100% of the time, I'd think -- at least assuming they breathe fire normally as part of their attacking the land and buildings.)

Okay, that would make sense. You sort of suggested that smoke could obscure the view, but wouldn't that logically attract even more attention? "Ga-Metru is burning!" "What?" "Did you start that, Kapura?" "No, it wasn't me, I swear by Mata Nui!" "What are those...things?" ...and so on.

 

After the initial sighting and seeing them breathe fire, I'd think they'd see it as obvious why there was smoke obscuring their view from afar. Some Ta-Matoran might still want to see what's happening, especially due to the fire-breathing, but when the smoke made that impossible, they'd probably just shrug, get back to work, and hope the Vahki could handle it.

Possible.

[V-N]

It wouldn't be like the sky would be completely clear over Ta-Metru either; with all the foundries, there is probably a good amount of smoke over the district. Ta-Matoran may not have a clear view across to Ga-Metru. The Great Temple's landmass would also mostly be underwater. If a stray Matoran did happen to see a Protocairn die, they would see the body sink below the sea, not likely thinking what happened to it. By the time the bodies did stack up, the Vahki would probably have had enough time to evacuate or cover up the scene.

 

Plus, once Metru-Nui's citizens saw the Protocairns, they would willingly flee to a safer place. None would likely stick around to see what happened to the Protocairns.

 

And the incident may not be very significant to most Matoran. For all they know, it was just some escapee Rahi that were originally being transported to Metru-Nui's archives. Hardly something out of the ordinary.

[bonesiii]

You sort of suggested that smoke could obscure the view, but wouldn't that logically attract even more attention?

Sure, but my point was simply that smoke might make that attention unable to penetrate it to see the widescale destruction of old land and the new land creation death event, if there was an evacuation.

 

It wouldn't be like the sky would be completely clear over Ta-Metru either; with all the foundries, there is probably a good amount of smoke over the district.

True. I almost brought that up before, but then we've seen a few portrayals where those all (as far as I recall) look more like vertical smoke... I dunno what the right term is but lines going up right from the specific fire point. So, you'd still presumably be able to see around most of those, depending on your vantage point. Still, it could contribute.