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Reason for Simplicity of the "Legend of Mata Nui" Story

Turaga Makuta Matoran Dark Time Great Catacylsm

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#1 Offline Azani

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Posted May 28 2014 - 10:16 AM

Most fans who were following the story in 2001 were familiar with The Legend of Mata Nui, as the Turaga told it to the Matoran of Metru Nui who had emigrated to Mata Nui by that time. As a quick refresher, it goes somewhat like this:

"In the time before time, the great spirit Mata Nui descended from the skies like a burning star, bringing we, the Matoran to this island, and gifting us with the three virtues: unity, duty, and destiny. We named this island after the great spirit himself in his honor, and it was a paradise for some time. But, Mata Nui had a brother; the dark spirit Makuta. Makuta had followed his brother to our paradise, and he was jealous of all the praise that he received from the Matoran. So, Makuta cast Mata Nui into a deep, dark sleep...

There might have been a segment predicting the arrival of the Toa Mata, but it doesn't matter much to my point, as the types of words and the heavy use of simplistic metaphors is present in that section too. The legend is known for being very simplistic, greatly condensing and metaphorically describing much of what we actually know to have happened in the canon during the months preceding, during, and immediately after the Great Cataclysm.

If a person were to lose all every single one of their memories, than they'd practically be an animal, with little to no human intelligence. This is regularly done on purpose to many of the droids in the Star Wars universe, and not only do they lose their memories of past events that they witnessed or learned of, they lose their abilities to read, write, talk, and assemble or disassemble even simple mechanical objects; in short, they need to be re-taught everything. If the Matoran of Metru Nui really lost every single one of their memories, than they would have very little intelligence for several months, or possibly years of their time on Mata Nui; it would depend on how long it took the Turaga to reteach every individual Matoran everything, or for the Matoran to teach themselves. During the period in between being liberated from the pods in which they were "sleeping" and having completely mastered everything that they needed to relearn, the Legend of Mata Nui story would have been useful in explaining their predicament in simple terms: basically, that there's a guy named Makuta, he's evil, and he hates you, much like a parent would do for a very young child. The Legend of Mata Nui was crafted to be very simple because Matoran with complete memory loss wouldn't be able to understand a more complex version.

This could also explain why the majority of the technology on Mata Nui was many times more primitive than that of Metru Nui prior to the Great Catacylsm; the Matoran would have had to start from the most basic tools and work their way up in terms of developing new technology, which was probably further stunted when Teridax's rahi attacks began in full force. We don't know how long it took the Matoran to invent their chute system after they had begun to live in Metru Nui, but it easily could have been tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of years; human civilization has been around for roughly 11,000 years, and we haven't invented a chute system for transportation just yet.


Edited by Artakha's Nephew, May 29 2014 - 07:25 PM.

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#2 Offline Yaldabaoth

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Posted May 28 2014 - 01:20 PM

Small quibble: it couldn't have taken the Metru Nui Matoran "hundreds of thousands of years" to develop the chutes, because the Matoran Universe was only in operation for about 100,000 years anyway. :P That said, I think I agree that it must have taken them some time to implement the system, though since it seemed so entwined with Metru Nui's culture, I'd assumed it happened before the halfway point.

 

Anyway, with regards to your actual theory: that makes a lot of sense. So much sense that I'm surprised it had to be said. :P What's more, it explains why the Mata Nui Matoran always had so much more of a childlike demeanor than the Matoran we saw in '06, '07, and '08: each "Tohunga" only had 1,000 years of experience, whereas those in other parts of the universe might have had thousands or tens of thousands to their name.


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#3 Offline Akavakaku

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Posted May 29 2014 - 12:09 AM

I think its heavily implied that the Great Beings invented the chutes, since there are chutes that link islands to each other. The Metru Nuians likely reverse-engineered them.


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#4 Offline Azani

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Posted May 29 2014 - 11:38 AM

Small quibble: it couldn't have taken the Metru Nui Matoran "hundreds of thousands of years" to develop the chutes, because the Matoran Universe was only in operation for about 100,000 years anyway. :P That said, I think I agree that it must have taken them some time to implement the system, though since it seemed so entwined with Metru Nui's culture, I'd assumed it happened before the halfway point.
 
Anyway, with regards to your actual theory: that makes a lot of sense. So much sense that I'm surprised it had to be said. :P What's more, it explains why the Mata Nui Matoran always had so much more of a childlike demeanor than the Matoran we saw in '06, '07, and '08: each "Tohunga" only had 1,000 years of experience, whereas those in other parts of the universe might have had thousands or tens of thousands to their name.


That detail about taking hundreds of thousands of years is an important mistake to have caught. While writing the theory out, I was thinking of the 100,000 year limit; I believe that I meant to write that it could have taken them nearly one hundred thousand years, instead of hundreds of thousands. One would think that devising an efficient method of transportation across a dense metropolitan area would have been among the first priorities of the Metru Nui Matoran, as it has historically been among the first issues to have been dealt with in human society.

It's definitely not the most profound theory ever written; far from it, though it's an interesting insight into the cause of multiple signs of primitiveness among the Mata Nui Matoran. I can see what you mean about it practically being common sense; I eventually decided to post it because it covered several different subjects relating to the topic, as opposed to just one.

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#5 Offline bonesiii

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Posted May 29 2014 - 12:32 PM

To the points people raised about chute invention in the replies, all we know is that they were invented sometime prior to 4000 or so years before story present, according to BS01's timeline. The underwater chutes could simply be added at that time, possibly with the help of members of Ehlek's species or the like. I would presume they are later inventions until we learn otherwise.

As for their being really helpful for travel, don't forget that since they're an advancement over other things, by definition people would start using that more than other things. That does not logically imply that they didn't use vehicles previously that were good enough for society to keep functioning and the maintenance jobs to get done. In fact we know they had a number of vehicles, though we likewise don't know how far back most of them go. And they can walk, after all, if all else fails. :P

[Edit: Oh, and at least according to BS01, chutes are definitely a Matoran invention (and recent), though I don't know offhand if this quote is actually confirmed in any canon source:

The Chute system was invented and put into practice soon after Turaga Dume was appointed leader of Metru Nui.

]

To the first post: Not much to add really. Basically -- yeah. :P Of course, their main motivation for telling such a tale in the first place was to lie about the Matoran's origins so they wouldn't be tempted to try to return and (the Turaga thought) be killed by the Makuta who was guarding the way back down. And the Turaga themselves didn't know just how close to reality their story was; they didn't know Mata Nui actually did fall from the sky. But none of that really matters to the point you're making which is about why they kept it simple.

Although I suppose keeping a lie simple would help avoid its plausibility breaking down too. :shrugs:

Edited by bonesiii, May 29 2014 - 12:35 PM.

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#6 Offline Wazdakka

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Posted May 29 2014 - 02:24 PM

Hmmm. I was under the impression that memory wipes in Star Wars and in Bionicle were basically it cleaned out ... how do you say it ( one of you smart people will find the specific word for it), the memory of events, people, places, etc. - but your knowledge of how to do things (walk, kill people, etc.) remain. I don't know where I got that though, as it's a non-Bionicle stretch. 


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#7 Offline bonesiii

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Posted May 29 2014 - 03:50 PM

That's true of the Toa Mata's memory loss and many others, but learned skills were presumably not kept in the Mata Nui Matoran; that was called a "total mind wipe." It's possible walking and basic language might still have been retained; offhand I don't recall. But they would still need a basically ground-up education.
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#8 Offline Akavakaku

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Posted May 29 2014 - 05:22 PM

There's a chute that goes to Karzahni; I find it hard to believe that it was put there recently.
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#9 Offline Master Inika

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Posted May 29 2014 - 06:05 PM

Remember that, at the end of LoMN, the Matoran can still walk and move normally immediately after their liberation. That may have been artistic license, but I think it's more likely that the Matoran remembered basic things like walking and talking. Plus, if they forgot how to talk (which they would have if they forgot literally everything), their technological advancement would have been even more primitive. Keep in mind they had things like elevators and domesticated animals.


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#10 Offline Akavakaku

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Posted May 31 2014 - 12:10 AM

Or it may be that basic language and motor control is part of a Matoran's core programming. I doubt the Great Beings wanted to teach every Matoran to walk and talk.
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#11 Offline Silverglass

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Posted May 31 2014 - 04:14 AM

Hmmm. I was under the impression that memory wipes in Star Wars and in Bionicle were basically it cleaned out ... how do you say it ( one of you smart people will find the specific word for it), the memory of events, people, places, etc. - but your knowledge of how to do things (walk, kill people, etc.) remain. I don't know where I got that though, as it's a non-Bionicle stretch. 

Focal Retrograde amnesia (RA) with a dash of Source amnesia? The former is technically your classic form of amnesia while the latter is the inability to recall when, where or how you acquired a particular ability/piece of information. Subjects exhibiting symptoms of RA are more likely to recall their earliest memories (if at all) with an even lower chance of regaining their most recent ones, as well as retaining general knowledge as opposed to specifics. It's possible the Turaga decided to start simple so as not to trigger too big a flash-back on the off-chance their stories did uncover some lost memories. The Matoran didn't seem to recall who/what Teridax even was, so I doubt the old "in the time before time" story would trigger anything. I threw in Source amnesia because it's possible the Matoran could have subconsciously distorted their memory, created false memories, and/or integrated information that had nothing to do with a particular memory (signs of the PTSD version of Source amnesia (minus the 'traumatic stress' part)), but now I feel like I'm reading into this too much... 


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#12 Offline bonesiii

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Posted May 31 2014 - 06:10 PM

There's a chute that goes to Karzahni; I find it hard to believe that it was put there recently.

The chute goes to a rocky peninsula jutting into the Metru Nui dome. You have to cross that, and go through a long tunnel (with that impenetrable darkness effect) before you enter Karzahni (among other things). For all we know, the Matoran thought they might colonize that land (or any number of other possibilities); it need have no inherent connection to Karzahni. Not like it drops you off on the front door, you know?
 

Remember that, at the end of LoMN, the Matoran can still walk and move normally immediately after their liberation.

They hadn't yet lost their memories at the time. Remember the memory wipe was a time-delayed thing that started sometime after they'd already built (or begun to build) the villages, probably around a year later. We never saw in-story portrayals of what it was like then.

 

I do suspect they could still walk and the like, but we'd need a Greg quote, basically, to know for sure.

 

I think probably the best evidence for it is that if they had to re-learn everything, they would be very ineffective at village defense for quite a while (at least if they would learn at a rate similar to humans). So it might seem suspicious that Makuta wasn't taking advantage of it and having the Rahi completely overwhelm them after the year of peace ended. On the other hand, the Turaga might assume he just hadn't yet gotten enough Kraata to infect enough masks, or didn't know the Matoran were basically babies, etc. Still, it might make them wonder why he was holding back. There seems to be no indication they ever suspected anything like the Plan.

 

Then again, that was a thousand years before, so any such suspicions could have faded. So, who knows. But I think it would be like ordering people to pick up weapons they'd crafted before the wipe, and explaining how to defend themselves, and with basic walking, etc. they might get defenses back up by nightfall. Then after that the Turaga could worry about explaining to the childlike Matoran what was going on, why they didn't know anything, etc.


Edited by bonesiii, May 31 2014 - 06:10 PM.

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#13 Offline Quisoves Pugnat

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Posted Jun 01 2014 - 01:25 AM

They hadn't yet lost their memories at the time. Remember the memory wipe was a time-delayed thing that started sometime after they'd already built (or begun to build) the villages, probably around a year later. We never saw in-story portrayals of what it was like then.

Where are you getting this from? This was never the impression I got with the scene in which Teridax reawakens Ahkmou, and I can't recall reading it anywhere.


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#14 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jun 01 2014 - 01:51 AM

Teridax waited to awaken Ahkmou until the pods' effects had run their course. When he awoke, his memory wipe had been completed.

 

I don't know if that tidbit ever made it into actual story, but it's common knowledge. See here for example:

 

http://biosector01.c...e/The_Dark_Time


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#15 Offline Yaldabaoth

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Posted Jun 01 2014 - 09:54 AM

Teridax waited to awaken Ahkmou until the pods' effects had run their course. When he awoke, his memory wipe had been completed.

 

I don't know if that tidbit ever made it into actual story, but it's common knowledge. See here for example:

 

http://biosector01.c...e/The_Dark_Time

 

Well, it's obviously not "common" knowledge, since it's news to most of us. But I guess I'll roll with it.


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DESCENDANT, starring Kraata-Kal and Makuta Teridax
AN EVEN EXCHANGE, starring the Makuta of Stelt
THE END OF THE BROTHERHOOD, starring Tobduk and Makuta Chirox

#16 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jun 01 2014 - 07:16 PM

18. So as far as the Matoran remember, they woke up on a beach, coming out of spheres, and six strange beings were there?

No. The Matorans' memory loss and shrinkage did not happen until after they were on Mata Nui. 

 

Make that very old news. That Greg quote is from 2004. :P

 

So far I haven't found any confirmation of "basic memories" being retained. However, if the MNOG is anything to go by, Takua is able to walk and talk right after his memory loss, so yeah.

 

Although the "impact" loss of hitting the beach might be different than the Makuta-canister loss, especially given the time delay, but I'd like to think that it isn't too much different. If they couldn't walk and talk the Matoran might have starved and died out there. 


Edited by fishers64, Jun 01 2014 - 07:21 PM.

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#17 Offline Azani

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Posted Jun 01 2014 - 08:04 PM

So far I haven't found any confirmation of "basic memories" being retained. However, if the MNOG is anything to go by, Takua is able to walk and talk right after his memory loss, so yeah.
 
Although the "impact" loss of hitting the beach might be different than the Makuta-canister loss, especially given the time delay, but I'd like to think that it isn't too much different. If they couldn't walk and talk the Matoran might have starved and died out there.


I believe that it has been specifically stated that Takua did not lose all of his memories after falling onto the beach near Ta-Koro, and furthermore that most, if not all of his memories that he had lost since his fall returned to him eventually. Unfortunately, I can't provide a source for that fact at the moment; however, if it is part of the canon, it would seem to indicate that Takua's memory loss around the time of the arrival of the Toa Mata was completely different, in both cause and effects, from the memory loss that he and the other Matoran experienced in the pods.


Edited by Artakha's Nephew, Jun 01 2014 - 08:38 PM.

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Check out the script for Mysterious Island, an adaption/reboot of the 2001 Bionicle story which I am writing. It's also a musical.

 
Bionicle is returning in 2015!

#18 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jun 01 2014 - 08:27 PM

 

So far I haven't found any confirmation of "basic memories" being retained. However, if the MNOG is anything to go by, Takua is able to walk and talk right after his memory loss, so yeah.
 
Although the "impact" loss of hitting the beach might be different than the Makuta-canister loss, especially given the time delay, but I'd like to think that it isn't too much different. If they couldn't walk and talk the Matoran might have starved and died out there.


I believe that it has been specifically stated that Takua did not lose all of his memories after falling onto the beach near Ta-Koro, and furthermore that most, if not all of his memories that he had lost since his fall returned to him eventually. Unfortunately, I can't provide a source for that fact at the moment; however, if it is part of the canon, it would seem to indicate that Takua's memory loss around the time of the arrival of the Toa Mata was completely different, in both cause and effects, form the memory loss that he and the other Matoran experienced in the pdds.

 

 

3) Speaking of Takua: he lost his memory after being blasted by the Toa Stones and hitting his head on a beach. Does he still have amnesia? Or is he cured now?


He most likely has been cured, but it did not restore his memory of Metru Nui. It only restored it back to the point where Makuta wiped it out.

 

Oh all right.  


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#19 Offline Sir Kohran

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Posted Jun 02 2014 - 06:47 AM

 

18. So as far as the Matoran remember, they woke up on a beach, coming out of spheres, and six strange beings were there?

No. The Matorans' memory loss and shrinkage did not happen until after they were on Mata Nui. 

 

Make that very old news. That Greg quote is from 2004. :P

 

 

Exactly/roughly how long after the Matoran emerged from the capsules did they lose their memories?


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#20 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jun 02 2014 - 02:46 PM

Exactly/roughly how long after the Matoran emerged from the capsules did they lose their memories?

 

 

1) How long after the Matoran's arrival on Mata Nui did their memories get erased?
 
1) I am guessing 50-100 years, off the top of my head.

 
:shrugs: 
 
Also, I finally found the thing I was looking for originally:
 

5. When Makuta wiped the Matoran's knowlege out, did they still remember how to read, their names, etc.?
 
Yes, what he erased were their memories of Metru Nui and their lives there.


Edited by fishers64, Jun 02 2014 - 02:47 PM.

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#21 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jun 02 2014 - 05:22 PM

Wow. I was going with BS01's timeline which seems to make it sound more like one year. :P I guess that wasn't a final answer, but yeah... I can make my version more ambiguous I guess...


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#22 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jun 02 2014 - 05:59 PM

Wow. I was going with BS01's timeline which seems to make it sound more like one year. :P I guess that wasn't a final answer, but yeah... I can make my version more ambiguous I guess...

I wouldn't worry about it TBH; that one is really old, and it could have been corrected/clarified later in some other topic. I just couldn't find a later answer to correct/counteract that one, which is why I posted it.  :shrugs:


Edited by fishers64, Jun 02 2014 - 06:59 PM.

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