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Golden Mask Property


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#1 Offline Mr. Lightning Bolt

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Posted Jun 17 2014 - 09:04 AM

This may have been answered before, but I dont know. 

It's been years and I still dont know the proper way the Golden Masks access the other powers. 

In the comics, they don't change shape, they just carry every power of the masks collected. Like for instance Tahu's Golden Hau enabling him to use the power of the Miru.

On the other hand, the flash animations from 2001 and 2002 show the masks change but stay gold. For instance, Onua changes his Gold Pakari to a Gold Hau during the battle with Makuta, and in 2002, during the Bohrok assault on Po-Koro, Pohatu's gold Kakama changes to a Gold Komau (yeah, noble!).

 

So which is it? Am I gonna have to get someone to commission painting?


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#2 Offline Iron_Man5

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Posted Jun 17 2014 - 09:50 AM

I'm pretty sure that in the animations when the masks changed shape, it was just to symbolize that a different power was being used. To someone new to the story, if they saw a golden hau suddenly let someone fly, they might be a bit confused if they didn't understand the importance of the golden masks. 

 

As to the Komau, I think Pohatu had one on his Suva and just swapped masks (Toa are able to use noble masks) and they just didn't recolor it.


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#3 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jun 17 2014 - 01:05 PM

That Komau is doubly problematic since it's the same mask the Turaga of that village wears on his face, and Greg said the Nobles were collected primarily for the Turaga. So unless a second Komau was added to the Po-Koro's Suva, that part of the scene is impossible. It seems like the animators thought Golden Kanohi can change into any mask power shape, which they can't. It's probably a good example of why MNOG and those Bohrok animations are "semi-canon." :P (Pohatu also should have been able to make rock do that without Hewkii's help; he's a Toa of Stone after all.)

 

As for which is more canon, I'm not really sure, but the shape changing seems unlikely. Shapeshifting is a thing in Bionicle, of course, but masks don't normally shapeshift themselves, and it's not listed as one of the Golden Masks' canon powers. And there's another difference between web portrayal of these masks and the other sources -- the difference in how they were obtained. In that case, it was stated that the book version is the canon one. And that is the normal rule. So I would presume, unless it's found that Greg said otherwise, that they don't change shape.

 

Plus, taking the time to shapeshift the mask almost seems to defeat the point, since in the time it takes to change shapes, they could have just teleported the original mask from the Suva. The Golden Masks are supposed to slightly increase battle efficiency by having the powers instantly accessible (though one at a time) without bothering with Suva teleportation. And in the online animations, there seems to be no noticeable difference in time spent between Suva use and Golden shapeshifting. (It would still increase security a little; no longer could masks be stolen from the Suva, but still...)


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#4 Offline Akavakaku

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Posted Jun 17 2014 - 03:51 PM

Although it also seems like there are advantages to still having a suva. If you get your mask knocked off, just summon another one!


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#5 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jun 17 2014 - 04:43 PM

Although it also seems like there are advantages to still having a suva. If you get your mask knocked off, just summon another one!

 

This isn't true: 

4. When removed, can a kanohi be worn by someone other than its original wearer? Or are they non-transferable? Also, if a Toa's kanohi gets knocked off, will they lose all the kanohi nuva they have collected or just the one they were using at the time? (I kind of think they just lose the one, since they call upon the powers of kanohi from their suva, where they are physically located.)

When a Kanohi is not being worn, it turns all gray. If say, Lewa loses his mask, and it turns gray, then Gali could pick it up, don it, and it would turn her color. So they are not exclusive, no. If a Toa loses his mask, he also loses access to all of his other masks. He must be wearing a mask to summon another. 


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#6 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jun 17 2014 - 05:27 PM

It would still have the advantage that if the mask on your face is smashed you could still walk back to your Suva and have another mask. The Golden Mask, in that way, is weaker.
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#7 Offline Friend of Fire

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Posted Jun 17 2014 - 07:00 PM

 

Although it also seems like there are advantages to still having a suva. If you get your mask knocked off, just summon another one!

 

This isn't true: 

 

 

4. When removed, can a kanohi be worn by someone other than its original wearer? Or are they non-transferable? Also, if a Toa's kanohi gets knocked off, will they lose all the kanohi nuva they have collected or just the one they were using at the time? (I kind of think they just lose the one, since they call upon the powers of kanohi from their suva, where they are physically located.)

When a Kanohi is not being worn, it turns all gray. If say, Lewa loses his mask, and it turns gray, then Gali could pick it up, don it, and it would turn her color. So they are not exclusive, no. If a Toa loses his mask, he also loses access to all of his other masks. He must be wearing a mask to summon another. 

 

I always wondered about this. Never knew someone had asked Greg. I mean the whole no mask prevents you from summoning a new one, because I always thought that the Toa Nuva could have done that in the Legends series. Now I know the Piraka only took six masks as appose to 25.


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#8 Offline N.S.M.8

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Posted Jun 18 2014 - 01:53 PM

I don't know if this was retconned, but Chronicles 1 states that the Golden Masks not only have all six powers, but each power is slightly stronger than it would be in a regular great mask (but still weaker then the Nuva masks).  Also, the great masks were destined to transform into the Nuva masks after exposure to energized protodermis, making them far more valuable than their non-golden counter parts.

This is only specific to the Toa who entered Karda Nui, but if the Toa Mata (the only beings to actually wear golden masks) did not transform before entering, the Golden Masks would have negated the disadvantage of losing connection to a suva.


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#9 Offline Mr. Lightning Bolt

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Posted Jun 24 2014 - 08:06 PM

I'm pretty sure that in the animations when the masks changed shape, it was just to symbolize that a different power was being used. To someone new to the story, if they saw a golden hau suddenly let someone fly, they might be a bit confused if they didn't understand the importance of the golden masks. 

 

As to the Komau, I think Pohatu had one on his Suva and just swapped masks (Toa are able to use noble masks) and they just didn't recolor it.

 

 

That Komau is doubly problematic since it's the same mask the Turaga of that village wears on his face, and Greg said the Nobles were collected primarily for the Turaga. So unless a second Komau was added to the Po-Koro's Suva, that part of the scene is impossible. It seems like the animators thought Golden Kanohi can change into any mask power shape, which they can't. It's probably a good example of why MNOG and those Bohrok animations are "semi-canon." :P (Pohatu also should have been able to make rock do that without Hewkii's help; he's a Toa of Stone after all.)

 

As for which is more canon, I'm not really sure, but the shape changing seems unlikely. Shapeshifting is a thing in Bionicle, of course, but masks don't normally shapeshift themselves, and it's not listed as one of the Golden Masks' canon powers. And there's another difference between web portrayal of these masks and the other sources -- the difference in how they were obtained. In that case, it was stated that the book version is the canon one. And that is the normal rule. So I would presume, unless it's found that Greg said otherwise, that they don't change shape.

 

Plus, taking the time to shapeshift the mask almost seems to defeat the point, since in the time it takes to change shapes, they could have just teleported the original mask from the Suva. The Golden Masks are supposed to slightly increase battle efficiency by having the powers instantly accessible (though one at a time) without bothering with Suva teleportation. And in the online animations, there seems to be no noticeable difference in time spent between Suva use and Golden shapeshifting. (It would still increase security a little; no longer could masks be stolen from the Suva, but still...)

 

1) Greg said that they collected the nobles for the Turaga? That makes very little sense, seeing as how if they were connected to a Suva and a Toa needed them, why would they be for the Turaga, particularly if the Toa needed the one currently on their Turaga's face?

2) Sorry I said change shape. I meant swap with the Suva. 

But that expands my question. Does the Golden Mask shapeshift itself or was it swapping with the suva, whereby all the masks (at least the Great ones) are golden on their Suva? 

That said, did they ever use noble masks in the comics?

 

I don't know if this was retconned, but Chronicles 1 states that the Golden Masks not only have all six powers, but each power is slightly stronger than it would be in a regular great mask (but still weaker then the Nuva masks).  Also, the great masks were destined to transform into the Nuva masks after exposure to energized protodermis, making them far more valuable than their non-golden counter parts.

This is only specific to the Toa who entered Karda Nui, but if the Toa Mata (the only beings to actually wear golden masks) did not transform before entering, the Golden Masks would have negated the disadvantage of losing connection to a suva.

So would they still have access to Noble ones or just the Great ones through the Golden Kanohi power? that's my main question.


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#10 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jun 24 2014 - 09:33 PM

 You asked some things there I thought we already cleared up, but skimming back I see it's not so clear. I'll try to cover everything clearly this time just to make sure there's no confusion left. :)

 

Greg said that they collected the nobles for the Turaga? That makes very little sense

I agree, but Greg didn't seem to agree. What he said actually at the time (this was a long time ago, he might have retconned it, not sure) was "only". I say "primarily" because some sources did show them using them. Either way, the Komau on Pohatu's face is still a problem since no other source says they collected two of each village's Turaga's main masks, and Onewa still has the Komau on his own face.

 

Greg's reasoning was that Great Masks are more powerful than Nobles, so a Toa wouldn't want a Noble. As I've pointed out often before, this ignores that even a weaker mask can fit better to a situation than the wrong power, so, scenes like Onua using Noble Telekinesis should make sense. But Greg didn't see it that way. :shrugs:

 

If Pohatu had used any other Noble mask it shouldn't really be an issue. Even though they collected the Nobles (according to Greg) for the Turaga only, they would still apparently be on the same Suva (only one Suva per village, I guess), so if the Toa changed their minds in a tricky situation and did call on one as a last resort it would work. But not with the same mask still being on the elder's face.

 

But that expands my question. Does the Golden Mask shapeshift itself or was it swapping with the suva, whereby all the masks (at least the Great ones) are golden on their Suva?

With Great Masks, it was not Suva-swapping. The shapechanging is what we don't know whether it's canon. The alternative is that they keep that Toa's normal face shape, but use a different power. The latter seems more likely but it's easy to see why it would confuse fans watching an online animation, so the animators can be given that artistic license.

 

If they used Noble Masks while normally wearing the Golden masks, though, it was definitely swapping with the Turaga's on the Suva. The part where the Komau keeps the golden color from the previous mask on his face is definitely non-canon. The problem there is that there shouldn't be a Komau on his face at all, or if there was, Onewa's mask should have switched to a different Noble. Make sense?

 

That said, did they ever use noble masks in the comics?

That would be easy to check -- there were only so many comics. I don't recall offhand but I doubt it. They were used several times in the MNOG/updates. (Books, I don't recall either, and that would be much harder to check.)

 

 

So would they still have access to Noble ones or just the Great ones through the Golden Kanohi power? that's my main question.

No -- the Golden Masks only gave access to the six Great powers.

 

One could hypothetically be made that would have multiple Noble powers, methinks, but that was not the case in the 2001 canon.


Edited by bonesiii, Jun 24 2014 - 10:26 PM.

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#11 Offline Iron_Man5

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Posted Jun 24 2014 - 10:23 PM

 

That said, did they ever use noble masks in the comics?

That would be easy to check -- there were only so many comics. I don't recall offhand but I doubt it. They were used several times in the MNOG/updates. (Books, I don't recall either, and that would be much harder to check.)

I recently read over the comics and the Toa Mata never used noble masks. :) Only the Turaga did to help the Toa out of sticky situations (like when Kopaka lost his ice powers and Nuju had to assist him.)


Edited by Iron_Man5, Jun 24 2014 - 10:23 PM.

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#12 Offline N.S.M.8

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Posted Jun 25 2014 - 10:15 AM

If they used Noble Masks while normally wearing the Golden masks, though, it was definitely swapping with the Turaga's on the Suva. The part where the Komau keeps the golden color from the previous mask on his face is definitely non-canon. The problem there is that there shouldn't be a Komau on his face at all, or if there was, Onewa's mask should have switched to a different Noble. Make sense?

Unless they had 7 of each noble mask.

The masks on Mata Nui were originally kept in the great temple on Metru Nui.   Unless Greg confirmed otherwise, it is entirely possible that the Toa Metru found 6 of each Noble Kanohi in the temple so that when they transformed into turaga, there were 7 of each.

I assume this because Greg said that they took ALL of the masks in the temple and confirmed that their were only 5 of each great mask, with the ones the Toa Mata wore bringing the number up to 6.  Because the Toa were supposed to immediately enter Metru Nui after being launched, I assumed that these 30 masks were left specifically for them.  If that is the case, it makes sense that they would leave 6 of each noble mask, not 5, as they had no way of knowing that there would be six Turaga with those same masks for them to share with.

All of that being said, Pohatu's Noble Koumau should not be gold.


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#13 Offline Mr. Lightning Bolt

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Posted Jun 25 2014 - 01:02 PM

Ok. so the Turaga shared the Suva with the Toa for the purposes of using the masks?

Did the Turaga ever switch their masks?


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#14 Offline Collector1

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Posted Jun 25 2014 - 01:05 PM

 

Did the Turaga ever switch their masks?

Not from what I remember. 


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#15 Offline Mr. Lightning Bolt

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Posted Jun 25 2014 - 01:55 PM

 

 

Did the Turaga ever switch their masks?

Not from what I remember. 

 

This is making me mad at Greg. THEN WHATS THE POINT OF AN ORANGE MAHIKI


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#16 Offline Iron_Man5

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Posted Jun 25 2014 - 04:41 PM

 

 

 

Did the Turaga ever switch their masks?

Not from what I remember. 

 

This is making me mad at Greg. THEN WHATS THE POINT OF AN ORANGE MAHIKI

 

So that you can swap their masks for your own storyline using the sets. :) That's what they're for, to play around with... you can have Vakama use illusions on a Rahi if he needed to, for your own non-canon stories.


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#17 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jun 25 2014 - 04:47 PM

 

Did the Turaga ever switch their masks?

Not from what I remember. 

This is making me mad at Greg. THEN WHATS THE POINT OF AN ORANGE MAHIKI

That doesn't follow -- just because you didn't see them switching them (and I'm not sure we didn't), doesn't mean they didn't switch them at some point offscreen. Plus, having the potential if it was needed could act as a deterrent -- Makuta might see that a mask that's good against one type of Rahi attack has been collected, and decide not to send that Rahi and to instead allocate them to some other task.

 

However, they only had the other Nobles for a very short time, all things considered; the Toa Mata collected the extras for them. That means that for 1000 years (roughly) they went without them. So there wouldn't have been a lot of time to show them using them, before they moved back to Metru Nui.


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#18 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jun 25 2014 - 04:52 PM

 

 

 

Did the Turaga ever switch their masks?

Not from what I remember. 

 

This is making me mad at Greg. THEN WHATS THE POINT OF AN ORANGE MAHIKI

 

Wouldn't that be of use defending Metru Nui near the end? I mean, there were Rahi attacks in Metru Nui while 2006-08 story was going on. Not to mention their possible uses on Spherus Magna, if the Suva could be taken out there. It's not useless. 

 

Also: 100,000 Aqua Magna Rahi are disappointed in the lack of Kanohi snacks. 


Edited by fishers64, Jun 25 2014 - 04:55 PM.

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#19 Offline Mr. Lightning Bolt

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Posted Jun 25 2014 - 07:57 PM

Well, the only person that gave me an answer I like is Iron_Man. Which is why I am going to ignore everything that's been said by Greg from now on. I like the animations. I declare them my personal canon.


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#20 Offline Iron_Man5

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Posted Jun 25 2014 - 10:32 PM

Well, the only person that gave me an answer I like is Iron_Man. Which is why I am going to ignore everything that's been said by Greg from now on. I like the animations. I declare them my personal canon.

Well thanks I appreciate that. :) glad to be of assistance.


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#21 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jun 26 2014 - 12:20 AM

If we're getting into headcanon (lol, we have a topic for that now but why not), you could also say that the power still activates instantly, so my earlier point would be irrelevant about the taking the time to switch shapes not improving things over taking the same time to mask-switch. And the shapeshifting would just begin the moment you activated the power (if you want), rather than the power being delayed until after the shapeshifting. I guess it would just be added to keep things less confusing, into the programming of the power.

Which come to think of it would actually be a reasonable theory. :shrugs: (Except for any confirmation we may or may not have that they don't change shape. But I don't even know if we actually have that...)

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#22 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jun 26 2014 - 12:39 AM

*goes to find confirmation that we may or may not have...*
 

18. Do Golden Kanohi change shape when they are being used? In one episode it showed them changing, but in the comics the always retain the shape of the wearer’s primary Kanohi. Which is correct?

I do not believe golden Kanohi change shape. If they do, no one has ever told me about it.

Well that's useless...*keeps searching*
 

4.) I remember (I think...) in some of the old online movies, when the Toa had their Golden kanohi, the shape of the mask would change depeneding on the power they were accessing. But is that how it works? I thought the Golden Kanohi is a single mask with 6 powers, right, so that the Toa didn't have to worry about Suva/mask-switching.
 
4) The mask shapes did not switch in comics or books. They switched in the online movies to graphically demonstrate, "Oh, he's using a different power now" for those who didn't get what the golden masks did.

:shrugs: Looks like it's still open. Technically. :shrugs: 
 
Relevant to above discussion: 

The Turaga do use the Noble Masks to help defend their villages -- you just don't see it, because we focus on the Toa. Part of the Toa's quest was to collect six Noble Masks, but they did not need those to get the golden Kanohi -- and the golden Kanohi contained the powers of the six Great Masks.

I have no doubt what you say about MNOLG is true, but I have never written or seen anything where the Toa use the Noble Masks themselves. I have no doubt it has happened, but in general my attitude is that the Noble Masks have so much less power in comparison to the Great Masks that the Toa would be less likely to use them.

 

18. Why didn't the Golden Kanohi itself change, instead of splitting up into 6 different Kanohi Nuva masks? (I mean storyline-wise, not the reason that if it hadn't, the Toa Nuva would have been too powerful and without incentive for working together.)


18) Basically, your behind the scenes reason IS the storyline reason. This is all about destiny, and the golden mask was not destined to change in that particular way. The Toa needed the golden masks to defeat the Manas and Makuta, but they were not destined to have them as Toa Nuva.


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