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Irnakk and the Skakdi fusion theory

Irnakk Piraka Skakdi

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#1 Offline Iron_Man5

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Posted Jun 17 2014 - 09:59 AM

So I'm pretty sure that it's already been established that the Golden being isn't Irnakk, but I found a few things interesting about him:

1. He makes dreams come to life, just like Irnakk can.

2. He was created by Skakdi (indirectly) who have Irnakk in their mythology

3. He was composed of 6 Piraka who had personally met a manifestation of Irnakk during their quest for the Ignika.

4. He's golden, which was a trait unique among the Skakdi of Irnakk.

 

So my theory is while he may not *be* Irnakk himself, the EP gave the fusion the form and abilities somewhat like what the Irnakk of old had. Like maybe somehow destiny played out, that with the knowledge of Irnakk in the minds of the Piraka, and in the mythology of the other Skakdi, destiny played a card out and made Irnakk a proper creature, albeit not exactly him, like the Ignika could, but close enough, based on the materials it was given. :) Not sure if this makes any sense to you guys, but bottom line is, I'm not saying that Goldie is Irnakk, but rather a character based off of the legendary monster, created by the dreams of the Skakdi with help from destiny and a bit of EP. Idk there's just too many similarities between the two for it to be a coincidence right? 

 

You know the drill: questions, comments, rude remarks?  :voyanui:


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#2 Offline ~The 1st Shadow~

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Posted Jun 17 2014 - 11:48 AM

I hadn't noticed the dream-manifestation connection before. Does make for an interesting theory, though. 

What it makes me think of, however, is that the legends of Irnakk were sort of a foreshadowing of Goldie coming into being, with the stories of Irnakk being a prototype of sorts for the character. Not as likely, but it does make for an interesting thought.

 

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#3 Offline Spiderus Prime

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Posted Jun 17 2014 - 12:42 PM

Actually it's a pretty good if The Golden Being is named Irnakk. 


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#4 Offline Iron_Man5

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Posted Jun 17 2014 - 12:51 PM

Actually it's a pretty good if The Golden Being is named Irnakk. 

I know, I always thought that it was gonna be Irnakk when I heard it was "golden" and had Skakdi origins, but I'm quite sure somewhere they said that it wasn't him... no idea where though, I could be wrong.


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#5 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jun 17 2014 - 12:59 PM

I've thought this too. Though I think it would be more of a "good version" (which may explain why it doesn't look quite like him and isn't called Irnakk) -- the idea of Irnakk was basically an enemy to Skakdi, so they wouldn't be likely to want it to come into existence.

 

Wasn't there something about Teridax having seen some destinies and causing that to happen? Could fit with Irnakk being a foreshadowing of what was destined or something.


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#6 Offline Iron_Man5

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Posted Jun 17 2014 - 01:01 PM

Well the Skakdi used the legend of Irnakk to make their people obey them kinda like "obey or Irnakk will come and destroy us all" kind of thing. He was their "great spirit" while the matoran served Mata Nui. (at least how the story goes). So that's why he was all bad and nightmares etc.

 

This could be the way Irnakk was supposed to be... it does bear thinking about.


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#7 Offline boston100

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Posted Jun 17 2014 - 01:56 PM

that actually makes sence,,


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#8 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jun 17 2014 - 02:15 PM

The thing is, though, the Skakdi were actually scared of Irnakk. This guy doesn't strike me as very scary - in fact the entire group of Skakdi are pretty comfortable having him around. In fact he sounds like the polar opposite of Irnakk. 

 

4. It’s been established that the golden guy is not Irnakk, however there many things that he has said that make him seem like he would be Irnakk. My question is, does he have any remote relation to Irnakk?

 

4) No, he does not

 

*throws bucket of water on parade*

 

Going back up the line...

 

4)Was Irnakk really just a nightmare creature invented to frighten other Skakdi, or could he have also been an even more spectacular failure of Spiriah’s experiments (maybe during an early test; Irnakk went out of control and Spiriah had to get rid off him; so he became just a Legend .. til the Ignika made him come true again for the Piraka of course)?

4) No, Irnakk was a myth, that’s all

 

2) Is the fusion Irnakk (greenish cloud was some kind of Irnakk’s spirit)?

2) No. And Irnakk has no "spirit" -- Irnakk is a made up character, like the Wolfman or Frankenstein’s monster. He’s not real, so he can’t have a real spirit.

 

Just to confirm...


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#9 Offline Iron_Man5

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Posted Jun 17 2014 - 02:58 PM

Well I knew about that... I was just thinking that maybe he was inspired a bit by irnakk, rather than being an embodiment of the creature. :)


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#10 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jun 17 2014 - 04:47 PM

*EP Entity pokes his head out of a pool on Zakaz* *curious, listens to Irnakk story*

 

*later, when it has these beings in itself, decides to make them look like Irnakk for ironic fun*

 

:shrugs:


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#11 Offline Silverglass

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Posted Jun 17 2014 - 05:35 PM

I think he means that destiny decided to pull a Nemesis Prime. In the TF: Armada continuity, Nemesis was originally a blank slate that probed the transformers' minds for the one being they all saw as the most powerful -- Optimus Prime, in this case -- and Nemesis shape-shifted accordingly. Perhaps it was the same with the Piraka, except that Irnakk was the powerful and intimidating being in their minds and "Goldie" was the knockoff. And since there were three non-Skakdi beings mixed in as well, that might explain why Goldie wasn't an exact copy of Irnakk.  :notsure:


Edited by Silverglass, Jun 17 2014 - 05:35 PM.

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#12 Offline OrderoftheGreatSpirit

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Posted Jun 23 2014 - 05:24 PM

First of all,

 

*EP Entity pokes his head out of a pool on Zakaz* *curious, listens to Irnakk story*

 

*later, when it has these beings in itself, decides to make them look like Irnakk for ironic fun*

 

:shrugs:

I always thought that the Entity didn't necessarily have control over what came out of his creations and thus his curiousity toward all his creations in Maze of Shadows.

 

Secondly, I just thought that the greenish cloud diving into the pool was Makuta Teridax's or some other Makuta's attempt to keep himself alive as he realized he was about to die at the hands of, respectively, Mata Nui or Makuta. The possibility of it being Teridax is reinforced when it says that Makuta put the idea for Goldie in the Skakdi's heads.


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#13 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jun 23 2014 - 05:34 PM

Secondly, I just thought that the greenish cloud diving into the pool was Makuta Teridax's or some other Makuta's attempt to keep himself alive as he realized he was about to die at the hands of, respectively, Mata Nui or Makuta. The possibility of it being Teridax is reinforced when it says that Makuta put the idea for Goldie in the Skakdi's heads.

I'm not sure why you're bringing this up, but we know the cloud was Zaktan. (I'm guessing from the mention of it in one of the "not Irnakk" quotes above? But I've only skimmed back to refresh my bad memory so yeah.) And it's confirmed Teridax is completely dead.


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#14 Offline OrderoftheGreatSpirit

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Posted Jun 29 2014 - 02:33 PM

You're right.

 

But then, why would Teridax use his soldiers to design something with no apparent use toward him? With all his might and power, he could make his own dreams come true.


Edited by OrderoftheGreatSpirit, Jun 29 2014 - 03:55 PM.

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#15 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jun 29 2014 - 04:42 PM

You're right.

 

But then, why would Teridax use his soldiers to design something with no apparent use toward him? With all his might and power, he could make his own dreams come true.

How do you know it would have had no use for him?


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#16 Offline OrderoftheGreatSpirit

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Posted Jun 29 2014 - 05:40 PM

What would he have done?  His plan was to "crush whole worlds beneath his feet". He had his mental powers for keeping order in his universe, he had Rahkshi and Skakdi for invasion forces. Unless there are yet more secrets of the Bionicle universe, that's all he really needed to achieve his dream.

 

And, as always, I'm open to fresh ideas or things I haven't thought of.


Edited by OrderoftheGreatSpirit, Jun 29 2014 - 05:44 PM.

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#17 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jun 29 2014 - 05:43 PM

What would he have done?

I haven't the foggiest, but our lack of knowing what would have happened isn't the same thing as knowing nothing useful would have happened. That's all I'm saying. :) Presumably something in its abilities would be of use to him. If he could get it on his side, that's more power helping him. Increases total ability, obviously. But I suspect it would be something more subtle we're not likely to guess; that's how Greg's stories usually go. :P


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#18 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jun 29 2014 - 10:41 PM

I thought it was a bribe to get the Skakdi (and Nektann) on his side. If he could make their dreams come true, then they would do what Teridax wanted in exchange for the dream being granted. :shrugs: 

 

Also, since Zaktan was controlling the fusion, he likely would be okay with following Teridax. He did talk to Teridax before when he was in that glass case, and to Zaktan's knowledge Teridax hadn't betrayed them. In fact, what Zaktan wanted was a part of the Plan, and Teridax was finally giving him what he wanted. I think it adds up. 


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#19 Offline Iron_Man5

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Posted Jun 29 2014 - 11:24 PM

I thought it was a bribe to get the Skakdi (and Nektann) on his side. If he could make their dreams come true, then they would do what Teridax wanted in exchange for the dream being granted. :shrugs:

 

Also, since Zaktan was controlling the fusion, he likely would be okay with following Teridax. He did talk to Teridax before when he was in that glass case, and to Zaktan's knowledge Teridax hadn't betrayed them. In fact, what Zaktan wanted was a part of the Plan, and Teridax was finally giving him what he wanted. I think it adds up. 

Actually the fusion was created after Nektann had already allied his army with Teridax. Plus, the Skakdi warlord organizing the event stated that they were doing it to make a name for themselves, and not have to follow Teridax's rule. So whatever influence Terry had, it was all behind the scenes. :)

Also, I don't think it was ever proved that Zaktan controlled the fusion... was it?


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#20 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jun 29 2014 - 11:44 PM

 

I thought it was a bribe to get the Skakdi (and Nektann) on his side. If he could make their dreams come true, then they would do what Teridax wanted in exchange for the dream being granted. :shrugs:
 
Also, since Zaktan was controlling the fusion, he likely would be okay with following Teridax. He did talk to Teridax before when he was in that glass case, and to Zaktan's knowledge Teridax hadn't betrayed them. In fact, what Zaktan wanted was a part of the Plan, and Teridax was finally giving him what he wanted. I think it adds up.

Actually the fusion was created after Nektann had already allied his army with Teridax. Plus, the Skakdi warlord organizing the event stated that they were doing it to make a name for themselves, and not have to follow Teridax's rule. So whatever influence Terry had, it was all behind the scenes. :)

Also, I don't think it was ever proved that Zaktan controlled the fusion... was it?

 

it was: http://www.bzpower.c...in-green-cloud/
 

Their mission here was as simple as it was perilous. The Order had learned that Nektann, a powerful Skakdi warlord, had allied with Makuta Teridax and led his army on a journey south. Now it was vital to find out if any of the other warlords were going to follow his lead.

On top of that, there was a mystery to be solved. Following the widespread destruction on Daxia, the sea snakes that were once the evil Piraka had vanished. It had been believed they were just buried in the rubble, but rumors were flying they had been rescued and spirited away to Zakaz. For what purpose, no one could say.

 

I thought this was that Teridax told Nektann how to build the fusion - and perhaps, what it would do - and Nektann agreed to an alliance. 

“For too long, we have been penned up on this island, by the will of the Brotherhood,” the warlord continued. “And now one of their number controls our universe, and believes he controls us, as well. But we will show him he is wrong!”

“Okay, well, it doesn’t sound like he and Teridax will be playing kolhii together anytime soon,” said Jaller.

“And I think he’s just getting warmed up,” said Hahli.

“Let our salvation now rise,” shouted the warlord.

“Here it comes,” said Nuparu.

Now I'll concede this point - he does make the speech. But then again, he's in the middle of his troops, and is likely to say whatever they will go along with. Skakdi historically don't like Makuta, so he probably said what would make them happy in terms of opposing them in order to get the fusion made. 

 

The illusion/lie could be kept up, seeing that Teridax has faked defeats before. 

 

With that said, it's possible, technically, that Nektann thought he was opposing Teridax by building the fusion, and that Teridax duped the Order into thinking that he had an alliance with Nektann and sending the Toa Mahri down there, but I think that Occam's Razor might apply (one deception of the troops instead of two), thus leading me to believe that the former explanation is more likely.

 

It is virtually confirmed that Teridax was involved, though, since he would be involved in sending Zaktan there at the very least, if not all of the Piraka. 


Edited by fishers64, Jun 30 2014 - 12:07 AM.

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#21 Offline Iron_Man5

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Posted Jun 30 2014 - 06:31 AM

Fishers64, that link you put, it says Greg states that Zaktan was the green cloud, but doesn't prove yet that Zaktan was able to take control over the being, it was just speculation.

 

And Nektann wasn't the Skakdi warlord making the speech, he had already taken his army to the lands of the south, this was taking place at Zakaz.


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#22 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jun 30 2014 - 07:40 PM

Fishers64, that link you put, it says Greg states that Zaktan was the green cloud, but doesn't prove yet that Zaktan was able to take control over the being, it was just speculation.

 

And Nektann wasn't the Skakdi warlord making the speech, he had already taken his army to the lands of the south, this was taking place at Zakaz.

I'm dead sure Greg said that the green cloud was the dominant mind in the fusion, and the green cloud=Zaktan. Ergo...

 

But I'll ask Greg again, because the last time I searched, I had trouble finding it. 

 

As to the other point, you're right. :) So it's possible that the Skakdi built the fusion to oppose Teridax, but what's confusing is why Teridax teleported the Piraka. (If the other snakes just didn't get into the water after Daxia was destroyed and start swimming...)

 

If Zaktan is controlling the fusion, Teridax teleporting Zaktan to the fusion might have been so that he would have some degree of control over it...


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#23 Offline Iron_Man5

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Posted Jun 30 2014 - 08:33 PM

If you can find out for sure, that'd be great. :)

 

As for how the Piraka got there, I believe the Order had supposed that the Skakdi had "rescued" them and took them back to Zakaz for the procedure. And the Toa Mahri deduced that Terry gave the idea for the fusion into the Skakdi minds because only he knew if those particular beings were destined to be transformed because of his connection with the Mata Nui robot (how exactly wasn't explained) :P


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#24 Offline MetaToa

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Posted Jul 02 2014 - 12:57 AM

Possibly...


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#25 Offline Yaldabaoth

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Posted Jul 02 2014 - 05:08 PM

Well, fishers asked Greg in the LMB thread, and he replied that no one mind is controlling the fusion.

 

 

 

1) Is Zaktan controlling the fusion?

1) No, it's a merged being. No one consciousness from an individual member controls it.

 

Of course, he also said that Teridax had nothing to do with the fusion at all, which is in direct contradiction to RoS, so I guess we can take all that with a grain of salt.


Edited by Yaldabaoth, Jul 02 2014 - 05:12 PM.

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#26 Offline Iron_Man5

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Posted Jul 02 2014 - 05:40 PM

Well bah humbug and all that jazz. :P Looks like it's up to individual head canon to decide who and what is that thing exactly. :/


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#27 Offline OrderoftheGreatSpirit

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Posted Jul 02 2014 - 05:40 PM

All of the creatures in the transformation were of species with bad reputations (or at least not good ones)--the Zyglak vengeful outcasts; the Vorixx of whose species came Roodaka; and the dumb slaves of Stelt. And the Piruka. So the resulting creature wouldn't be good as he seemed in Sahmad's Tale (unless nine wrongs really do make a right). The resulting creature would be a three-ninths dumb, three-ninths crafty, and three-ninths just-evil.

 

And also, I don't get how any of them would've known about Annona's species anyway, which doesn't make sense for the Zaktan-controled theory or the combination-controled theory. But if Irnakk really was real and created by the Great Beings on Spherus Manga, he could've known. Just saying.


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#28 Offline Iron_Man5

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Posted Jul 02 2014 - 05:44 PM

All of the creatures in the transformation were of species with bad reputations (or at least not good ones)--the Zyglak vengeful outcasts; the Vorixx of whose species came Roodaka; and the dumb slaves of Stelt. And the Piruka. So the resulting creature wouldn't be good as he seemed in Sahmad's Tale (unless nine wrongs really do make a right). The resulting creature would be a three-ninths dumb, three-ninths crafty, and three-ninths just-evil.

 

And also, I don't get how any of them would've known about Annona's species anyway, which doesn't make sense for the Zaktan-controled theory or the combination-controled theory. But if Irnakk really was real and created by the Great Beings on Spherus Manga, he could've known. Just saying.

three-ninths dumb? I'd think only one-ninths because only the "krekka" type would possibly be stupid (and we have no proof that all the "krekkas" are dumb, we only have one example of them. And the piraka, even Reidak and Vezok weren't dummies. Even though Reidak looked stupid, it was stated over and over that secretly he was quite brilliant. Add Thok and Zaktan's brains, and this creature could be extremely smart.


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#29 Offline Yaldabaoth

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Posted Jul 02 2014 - 06:18 PM

All of the creatures in the transformation were of species with bad reputations (or at least not good ones)--the Zyglak vengeful outcasts; the Vorixx of whose species came Roodaka; and the dumb slaves of Stelt. And the Piruka. So the resulting creature wouldn't be good as he seemed in Sahmad's Tale (unless nine wrongs really do make a right). The resulting creature would be a three-ninths dumb, three-ninths crafty, and three-ninths just-evil.

 

And also, I don't get how any of them would've known about Annona's species anyway, which doesn't make sense for the Zaktan-controled theory or the combination-controled theory. But if Irnakk really was real and created by the Great Beings on Spherus Manga, he could've known. Just saying.

 

a. Anyone might seem good-natured if they're being compared to someone who's even worse.

 

b. Annona doesn't have a species; she's a unique being. (Well, I guess she does now, since Sahmad dreamt them into existence in that other world, but that's beside the point.) Regardless, the Skakdi Fusion didn't know about her abilities from prior experience -- it's a mind-reader. It used telepathy to glean a bit of information about its opponent, and Annona did the same thing.


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#30 Offline Iron_Man5

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Posted Jul 02 2014 - 06:32 PM

"Hey I just met you...

and this is crazy...

but I mind-read you...

so kill me maybe..." 

 

Not funny but true  :hehe-sign:


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#31 Offline Archon~

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Posted Jul 03 2014 - 04:46 AM

Well, fishers asked Greg in the LMB thread, and he replied that no one mind is controlling the fusion.


1) Is Zaktan controlling the fusion?

1) No, it's a merged being. No one consciousness from an individual member controls it.

Of course, he also said that Teridax had nothing to do with the fusion at all, which is in direct contradiction to RoS, so I guess we can take all that with a grain of salt.
Pardon me, didn't he see that when a fusion is created the beings within it fight for dominance? Like yea, I understand that this new mind isn't purely stemming from the most dominant being, but I think that it's been stated that one being will have most influence over it... He should just let us know who that being is. :P

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#32 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jul 03 2014 - 02:28 PM

More stuff on this:
 


 

fishers64 wrote:
2) That doesn't make any sense, considering that Teridax smashed Zaktan's water bowl, thus making it look like he was dead. Teridax would have to have teleported him over there, otherwise he would have drowned. 
3) How then did the Skakdi know that putting that precise combination of beings in Energized Protodermis would produce that result?

 
1) Except that given Zaktan's nature, we can't predict what would happen to him in a given situation with too much accuracy.
2) They didn't. They had no way of knowing what was going to emerge when they were done.

 


(No thanks to the fact that I can't seem to quote stuff on the LMB.) RoS Character Theory =/= fact. 


Edited by fishers64, Jul 03 2014 - 02:29 PM.

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