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Properties of Protodermis


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So, we know that the Bionicle universe shares [at least] some properties, particularly those of physics, with our universe. (Gravity, water (and therefore chemicals, though those aren't really talked about), etc.)

And, particularly because of the chemicals part, things can take three forms (not counting plasma, yo), liquid, solid, and gas. We know protodermis can be solid and liquid, but we've never seen it as a gas, that I can think of.

 

Also, we know that things have to be either an element, or a molecule (well, not REALLY, since there are levels below those, but you know what I'm saying). What would protodermis be? I'm tending more towards element, just because of its properties. Also, energized protodermis could be like Prt1- or something like that, which would make it more reactive, probably.

 

So, what are your thoughts on this? Obviously, this is all hypothetical.

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Real life physics don't apply in BIONICLE, unless scientists discovered Protodermis yesterday and I wasn't told about it. - Greg Farshtey

The key word in science fiction is fiction, not science.  That being said, let's give Bionicle one exception to science and see if everything else makes sense. Let's consider protodermis to be this "miracle exception."

 

It seems that protodermis is different from normal matter on a subatomic level.  Protons and neutrons are hadrons, particles composed of quarks held together by the strong force.  If the atoms in protodermic matter was composed of hadrons other than protons and neutrons (in the same way that antimatter atoms replace protons with anti-protons and electrons with positrons), then we could have protodermic versions of every element on the periodic table, and thus every molecule that can be made of ordinary matter.  Given that we have seen protodermic versions of many common substances (such as water), this seems to me to be the most likely scenario.

 

This Protodermic matter (protodermis), can have as many differences from regular matter as the author wants as long as it kept consistent.  

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We know protodermis can be solid and liquid, but we've never seen it as a gas, that I can think of.

Water vapor...

 

What would protodermis be? I'm tending more towards element, just because of its properties.

Greg confirmed it's a molecule. That upcoming protodermis theory I keep teasing is primarily aimed at exploring how it can be a molecule. :)

 

I'm tending more towards element, just because of its properties.

Er, sorry to be blunt, but what properties do you have in mind that make it seem at all like a mere atom? Last I checked, atoms can't run programming. :P You'd need a super-advanced molecule, approaching the multiple-molecule complexity of a cell, to do that.

 

It's possible it incorporates fictional atoms (or energies, which may be more likely), as the "somehow" part that we can't possibly solve because of what I have called the "wall of fictionality." But the main properties that we know of are definitely on the molecule side of things.

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Well, obviously, nothing can attest to all of the properties of protodermis. ;)

 

 

 

It seems that protodermis is different from normal matter on a subatomic level.  Protons and neutrons are hadrons, particles composed of quarks held together by the strong force.  If the atoms in protodermic matter was composed of hadrons other than protons and neutrons (in the same way that antimatter atoms replace protons with anti-protons and electrons with positrons), then we could have protodermic versions of every element on the periodic table, and thus every molecule that can be made of ordinary matter.  Given that we have seen protodermic versions of many common substances (such as water), this seems to me to be the most likely scenario.

That's what I was referring to here:

 

 

(well, not REALLY, since there are levels below those, but you know what I'm saying)

I suppose changing the subatomic particle configuration could do it...

Hmm.

But that still wouldn't work with what Bonesiii was saying.

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Notwithstanding Greg's explanation, I've always thought of protodermis as an element. (Fun fact: if it were real it would have to be Pe since Pr, Po, Pt and Pd are taken.) The difference between frozen and solid Pe is its crystal structure; the latter has a much higher melting point and retains some crystals even if melted, causing it to usually revert back to that same form if cooled. I see the "coding" it can store as kind of a homeopathic signature in the alignment of its particles: after all, damaging a mask even a little destroys its power, so it doesn't seem like the power is encoded submolecularly. Energized Pe is a bit like an unstable isotope, but a more fantastic version.

 

EDIT: wait what? P-d corrects as Cleopatra?

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We know protodermis can be solid and liquid, but we've never seen it as a gas, that I can think of.

Water vapor...

 

What would protodermis be? I'm tending more towards element, just because of its properties.

Greg confirmed it's a molecule. That upcoming protodermis theory I keep teasing is primarily aimed at exploring how it can be a molecule. :)

 

I'm tending more towards element, just because of its properties.

Er, sorry to be blunt, but what properties do you have in mind that make it seem at all like a mere atom? Last I checked, atoms can't run programming. :P You'd need a super-advanced molecule, approaching the multiple-molecule complexity of a cell, to do that.

 

 

 

1. Have we ever seen Liquid water-type Protodermis evaporate? I don't think we ever have 'cause that would be cool.

 

2. I never knew it was confirmed as a molecule, I always figured it must be, but it's cool to know that know that.

 

3. Has the Protodermis molecule ever been confirmed to run programming? Or did you mean something made of a single type of molecule to run programmes? Because that's totally possible. And atoms CAN run programmes...sorta. Check out Quantum Computing, they use quantum superpositions that can run certain types of computing significantly faster than conventional Bit using computers.

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We know protodermis can be solid and liquid, but we've never seen it as a gas, that I can think of.

Water vapor...

 

 

 

1. Have we ever seen Liquid water-type Protodermis evaporate? I don't think we ever have 'cause that would be cool.

Yeah, I wasn't really sure what Bonesiii was saying. I think he might have been thinking I've never seen gaseous water...? Or something?

 

And atoms CAN run programmes...sorta. Check out Quantum Computing, they use quantum superpositions that can run certain types of computing significantly faster than conventional Bit using computers.

By that reasoning, I guess you could say anything  can "run programming", just be either being there (1) or not (0). :P

 

 

Notwithstanding Greg's explanation, I've always thought of protodermis as an element. (Fun fact: if it were real it would have to be Pe since Pr, Po, Pt and Cleopatra are taken.) The difference between frozen and solid Pe is its crystal structure; the latter has a much higher melting point and retains some crystals even if melted, causing it to usually revert back to that same form if cooled. I see the "coding" it can store as kind of a homeopathic signature in the alignment of its particles: after all, damaging a mask even a little destroys its power, so it doesn't seem like the power is encoded submolecularly. Energized Pe is a bit like an unstable isotope, but a more fantastic version.

 

EDIT: wait what? P-d corrects as Cleopatra?

I like this. And it makes sense.

Also lol I have no idea why it corrects Pd erm P-d as Cleopatra. Very weird. XD It confused me so bad the first time I tried to read your post.

Edited by Kopekemaster
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And atoms CAN run programmes...sorta. Check out Quantum Computing, they use quantum superpositions that can run certain types of computing significantly faster than conventional Bit using computers.

By that reasoning, I guess you could say anything  can "run programming", just be either being there (1) or not (0). :P

 

They don't actually run 1s and 0s...that's the thing about superposition, they can do both simultaneously. Called Qubits instead of Bits.

 

This guy explains the principle more clearly than I can say. Great channel too btw, if you're interested:

 

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1. Have we ever seen Liquid water-type Protodermis evaporate? I don't think we ever have 'cause that would be cool.

Anytime fire was used against water inside the giant robot, yes. We also saw water already in vapor form with clouds in the domes, and Tuyet controlling steam at one point.

 

Has the Protodermis molecule ever been confirmed to run programming?

Yes, in Kanohi, Kanoka, and anything else that has a protodermic power. It's presumed that it's involved in a few other things too, like "purity" level.

 

Or did you mean something made of a single type of molecule to run programmes? Because that's totally possible. And atoms CAN run programmes...sorta. Check out Quantum Computing, they use quantum superpositions that can run certain types of computing significantly faster than conventional Bit using computers.

I'm not sure I understood what you're asking here, but hopefully the above clears it up. Note that an individual atom cannot run programming (well, not of normal matter, anyways; I have thought of, for some sci-fi unrelated to Bionicle, a substance with a totally different subatomic structure that could). Rather, atomic states can be part of programming (which isn't necessarily exclusive from molecular programming -- the fact that it's a molecule doesn't tell us specifics about how the molecule works).

 

Also lol I have no idea why it corrects Cleopatra erm P-d as Cleopatra. Very weird. XD It confused me so bad the first time I tried to read your post.

Long story that I believe we're not allowed to talk about involving a banned member or something like that. Inside joke from the very old days.

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I thought that water and liquid protodermis were completely different things. Would that mean, then, that the "water" on Aqua Magna is actually protodermis?

No. The water outside the giant robot is normal water, just like real-world water. :) That's why I specified that I was talking about water inside the giant robot only (not counting Karda Nui).

Edited by bonesiii
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Pretty sure it wasn't mentioned in comics. Might have been in a book, but I don't think it was that clear. Anyways, we know it from Greg and/or other reference sources.

 

Out of curiosity, why are you asking about sources of protowater on Mata Nui? (I ask because the intent of the question would help answer it, as that's a complicated subject with some unknowns still.)

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Looks like I goofed up. 

3) If there's real water surrounding Mata Nui and the Silver Sea is Liquid Protodermis, then does the Toa Metru of Water control only the water part of the Liquid Protodermis?
 
 
3) You're assuming there is a water part of liquid protodermis. The Toa Metru of Water controls liquid protodermis -- Gali, since there was none around, controlled normal water. She will now have to learn to manipulate liquid protodermis the way she did water.

Emphasis on the word none. 
 

Q: What exactly is lava farming?

A: Lava farming is the gathering and channelling of lava so it can be cooled inside molds and thus used to make things. It was necessitated by the fact that Matoran on Mata Nui do not have access to vast amounts of liquid protodermis (not as much as they used to, anyway) and until the coming of Tahu had no way to superheat it.

 

8) What the water on the surface is made of is something we have not discussed. It may well be H20, it acts like it, but we have never said that.

 
Which goes back to the old atmospheric thing. 
 

Greg, I was wondering about the nature of the clouds on Metru Nui. If they are made of protodermis, like everything else, does that mean liquid protodermis can evaporate? Or do the clouds form in some other way?

I can't see why it wouldn't evaporate.

 
Anyway, I'm trailing off into the the hinterlands. But that's the answer.

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Oh HOH. So we have (sorta) an actual reference to gaseous protodermis.

I'm curious (again lol), why does that seem to surprise you? :P I mean, it probably doesn't really, but what made you apparently think there might NOT be gaseous protodermis? I could guess, but I don't wanna put words in your mouth. If it's what I'm thinking, then I may be able to clear something else up for you. :)

 

Anyways, like I said above, we already had official confirmation of gaseous protodermis as seen with the vapor Tuyet controlled once, and various others.

 

Incidentally, the Makuta had a gaseous antidermis form too (after a certain point in history, and other than Icarax after the Ignika reverted him). Antidermis isn't quite the same thing as protodermis, but it's the same sort of molecule, just with some differences.

 

 

And to the question in the previous post, it's thought that the "protodermis" the Onu-Matoran were trying to mine meant liquid proto, but not energized. It gets complicated, though, since everything around them (the dirt and rock) was also protodermis, yet that wasn't what they were after, so the word choice could imply MNOG programmers not knowing that, and/or EP. But if that theory is right, that would be why in one of Greg's answers up there he implied there could be some protowater. It would make sense because they called whatever they were mining the "stuff of life", so if it was just a useful variety of stone or something you wouldn't think they'd call it that, and EP is so dangerous it's unlikely to be called that too.

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I did notice a few answers from the early years referring to "liquid protodermis" underground, but's it's ambiguous, perhaps purposefully, and it seems like he's referring to EP. For example:
 

Who says kraata are made from protodermis? Kraata are part of Makuta's substance. But there is liquid protodermis in various places underground... and in at least one spot, a huge amount of it.


From 2003 knowledge, what's below is EP in various places underground, and a huge pool in which the Toa are transformed. Note that this is technically true even with the distinction between liquid proto and EP later, but it's misleading in context.
 
This is definitely wrong though:
 

3.you said that the kraata have life stages that they evolve too is the rahkshi one of them?

No, they only become Rahkshi if exposed to liquid protodermis.


We know that Rahkshi transform in EP, not liquid proto. I think there is definitely some confusion by Greg here into the types of protodermis that was later cleared up. There are many such answers like this.
 
Later:
 

19. Why is it that the Toa were transformed into Toa Nuva when they came into contact with liquid protodermis, but the Ga-Metru Matoran can swim in it without any effects? Are they two different types of protodermis? Or was it just destiny?
 
My understanding is that the transforming protodermis is what's called energized protodermis. 

  

Point being, I don't think they were mining for liquid proto. I think there was definitely some solid proto (lightstones, etc), and energized proto (dur) around, but not liquid proto. 
 
Also I didn't notice a bunch of clouds in LoMN or WoS, so I'm not fully surprised at Kopekemaster's reaction to that fact that there is clouds.

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'twas basically just because I didn't think it had been seen before.

 

But derp yeah I forgot about gaseous antidermis. :P Not quite the same, but still...

 

Also I find it somewhat amusing how unsure GregF seems about some of the points about proto (from Fishers' post).

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Point being, I don't think they were mining for liquid proto. I think there was definitely some solid proto (lightstones, etc), and energized proto (dur) around, but not liquid proto. 

For what it's worth, in MNOG 2 Hahli mines out some protodermis from the flooded sections of the Onu-Metru mine by using a sluice. The protodermis you get the goods from appear as a large, gelatinous blob of transparent blue color. It wobbles when Hahli does her "using item" animation. It was worth about the same as rock ore, so apparently it was a common resource.

 

Image courtesy of BS01.

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Also I didn't notice a bunch of clouds in LoMN or WoS, so I'm not fully surprised at Kopekemaster's reaction to that fact that there is clouds.

The very first introduction to Metru Nui we had, though, in the end of MoL, was filled with fog. And the open of WoS does indeed have an intense storm -- that crashes them on the beach. Water vapor has been more associated with the domes realms than the surface, in fact. You would see occasional clouds above Mata Nui, but neither fog nor storms were usually so prominent.

 

Also I find it somewhat amusing how unsure GregF seems about some of the points about proto (from Fishers' post).

A lot of that is because for some reason he apparently never played the MNOGs, and he tried not to blithely contradict things he was vaguely aware were in them. Some of it is also that they just hadn't pinned some details down yet. And some of it was just forgetfulness. The H2O thing was a big point of confusion, as he actually HAD said the surface water was H2O originally, but then forgot about it later on... pretty sure that's the forgetting quote. Thankfully he later re-confirmed it. Anywho...

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A thought I had the other day is related to the multi-substance property of protodermis. The word that came to mind is usually used in the context of elements and not molecules, but I don't see why we can't appropriate the term... Could the various forms of protodermis (liquid/gas, solid, metallic, organic, energized) represent allotropes of the substance? Energized can represent the natural, unordered form of Proto (it's less ordered state obviously charged with some energies that may or may not be related to being within it), and all others various arrangements of the Proto Particles. The arrangement causing the, say, solid form can be further refined by people like Mask Makers to created macro-structures that could be the source of the Kanohi Power programs. The energies and programs of a being interact with the macro-structures being built of proto-allotropes to result in the production of a given power.

 

Did that make any sense at all? XD

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