Let's Rewrite the Universe

[Krazyguy75]

Personally, I was never happy with the direction bionicle moved in the later years. The change from lore and legends to technology and describing the work of gods seemed like they were trying to hard to explain a universe where mysteries were keeping the world afloat.

 

So, the point of this thread is to rewrite the universe based on the things they had established prior to Metru Nui. In particular, Makuta still lives (and is capable of having his own body), being that he is basically a god. Yes, I know you are all thinking "Not another what if 2004 hadn't happened", but the point of this thread isn't just to "What if"; I want to recreate the franchise's history from the ground up, as if we were the ones creating it.

 

Assumptions to go off of:

• Mata nui is sleeping, the island of Mata Nui is his head (confirmed to be a founding principle of bionicle)
• There is only 1 Makuta, and he is just called Makuta (never liked the idea of more than one, it had way too many plot holes)
• Makuta basically cannot be permanently defeated.
• The island of Mata Nui has many, many years of history, far more than in the original franchise, and the Matoran originated on this island and it is their original home.
• If one were to go beneath Mata Nui, there would be caves, both artificial (part of the robot) and natural, but Metru Nui would not exist.
• Other islands may exist, but the technology level is primitive, for the most part: though they have machinery for mundane tasks, they are not industrialized or urbanized.
• Lore and legends are more important than any explanation of how the universe works! I think this is the primary failing behind bionicle, as they got rid of all the mystery behind the world, and it lost its intriguing qualities.

Possibilities to discuss:

• Would the Turaga be former Toa? It was implied they had went on adventures, but no one said they were Toa. If they were Toa, were they Toa of this island?
• I'm totally undecided on whether to keep Takanuva. On one side it was cool, but on the other I feel like his existence made the original 6 feel weaker, and thus would make the franchise hard to sustain.
• Any character from the original series can make a return, with some small exceptions such as that Makutas other than the original would need a new title.

Things not to do:

• Do not argue in favor of the original plot. You may love it, and it had parts I liked as well, but in this universe it never existed.
• Don't create a new island for every new plot arc. This results in one of my least favorite things in Bionicle, where islands lose their culture and become shallow, unexplored things (for example, how many different Mahri Nui landmarks can you name that are actually part of the village?)

 

Now the first thing we'd need to do is make a decision: What to do with 2003?

 

Personally, I'm in favor of keeping the Rahkshi, but having it be the original 6 vs them instead of calling in Divine intervention from the gods in the form of Takanuva.

 

What do you think should have happened? Discuss.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Krazyguy75

[TheSkeletonMan939]

Sounds like a "what if" to me.

 

Simple lore and mysteries only remain interesting for so long. It gets stale. If we'd gone ten whole years staying on Mata Nui not knowing much more about the universe... it'd get boring real fast. Even in ancient Greece they kept making up new stories about the gods to explain why things were.

 

Keep in mind the idea that Mata Nui was a giant robot was, like, the very first thing the story team came up with. It was one of the foundations of the series. It's not like in 2008 one day some dude said, "hey guys I came up with this idea - make him a robot."

Edited July 11, 2014 by TheSkeletonMan939

[bonesiii]

There is only 1 Makuta, and he is just called Makuta (never liked the idea of more than one, it had way too many plot holes)

?? Such as? I'm not aware of any consistency problems with that. As far as I know, that was just a taste thing related to the name Teridax.

 

The rest of this looks to be a statement of your own personal taste (and I'm sure some others), so not much to say. Except that the following bit, to my perspective, almost could not be more wrong:

 

Lore and legends are more important than any explanation of how the universe works! I think this is the primary failing behind bionicle, as they got rid of all the mystery behind the world, and it lost its intriguing qualities.

Throwing in something that has no reason, just to make people wonder, is not hard at all. But building mystery and THEN revealing a sensible, thrilling idea behind it is perhaps the highest form of success, and that is what Bionicle excelled at. But that's apparently a taste thing. Except that Bionicle was clearly always intended to have mysteries that would be solved, and clearly be in the sci-fi category of things. Skyhoppers, biomechanical beings, etc. Its main failing in later years is not explainable in such simplistic terms IMO.

 

I think it was a shift in focus away from rich detail (in 2001 we learn the powers of 12 masks... in 2008, we see six masks on Matoran faces with no information from the story team on what those shapes would do if powered, and we the fans had to suggest something), and too much running updates on any and every character. There are others, but solving the mysteries is not a failing because that IS the genre. That would be like saying a whodunnit fails because you find out who did it at the end, "ruining the mystery" -- but solving the mystery was the point.

 

Also, if you solve a mystery with the solutions you suggest instead of the ones that were used, you still take away mystery.

 

Things not to do:

• Do not argue in favor of the original plot. You may love it, and it had parts I liked as well, but in this universe it never existed.

Just so you know, if a topic starter argues against (or for, for that matter) something in original plot, others are indeed allowed to argue the other way. Also, if we're going to have something to discuss, it has to be based on something other than your own personal tastes, since only you know them. So if you didn't like something in the original plot but somebody else does, then they really couldn't answer your question without being in favor of the original. Anywho...

 

And similarly to your list of things to discuss -- it sounds like you're asking us to help you decide what you like best. But we really can't decide your tastes for you. And if those things are on the table for people to see differently, so are the other things you saw as a given. (But we do have the Headcanon topic open for those, so it probably would be best for people to focus on the questions you brought up here.)

 

I dunno if that helps at all, but for the record.

 

Edit: Also for the record:

 

Sounds like a "what if" to me.

Yes, but those are now allowed:

 

Allowed Topics 

 

* "What if" (alternate events and theorizing on their results) topics -- used to be banned due to too many, but now allowed again to encourage more discussion. Although we should still try to stick relatively close to what we can reasonably extrapolate; in-depth storytelling about alternate scenarios are usually better made into a fanfic story in the Library.

Although it seems like more of this one (also under allowed topics):

 

* "What I/you would do differently" topics about the storyline

Edited July 11, 2014 by bonesiii

[ALVIS]

Let's Rewrite the Universe

 

Let's not.

 

...

 

Okay, okay, I see your point. Now, I'm not one of those cranky originalists; I've learned to live with the multitude of retcons and plotholes for the sake of a more novel story; but I see your point. The island of Mata Nui storyline had a much more whimsical, tribal, and mysterious feel to it than later story ever did. (With regards to the mystery, I would posit that mysteries are ultimately useless if they're never solved -- with some exceptions, such as Kapura's abilities.) I can understand your wish to bring that back.

 

I would suggest you check out some of the original plans at the Faber Files; Three-Finger Island, in particular, will probably be exciting to you. There's also an artist on DeviantArt who seems to have a similar vision. Above all, I wish you luck. This is a very ambitious project, and I certainly wouldn't have the patience for it.

[Archon~]

I feel I will get stoned for saying this, but I never necessarily liked the feel of the first 3 years. I mean yeah, I was a kid so I was just kind of like "wow fire robot thats sick" but looking at it from a perspective of an older fan, it just seemed too conflicting to me...

 

I mean advanced robots on an island with barely-to-no technology?

Puh-lease. It's just silly.

 

So I say no, don't rewrite it. I think 2004 opened the door to a full on universe and a lot of questions that I've frankly had fun trying to answer and explore the past years.

[believe victims]

I'd rewrite it so the villages weren't mono-gender, but instead had an even 50/50 of male and female Matoran each. that'd be a top priority.

 

Then, I'd make Makuta stop popping up everywhere with either no explanation or a bad one. "All part of the plan" went from an explanation to sloppy writing fast. If Makuta's gonna be there, give him something real to do instead of standing in the corner cackling maniacally.

 

Then, I'd rewrite 2006 on to get rid of its pretentions of dark grittiness. It all came off as trite and insincere and was the worst thing about later years.

 

That's the biggest stuff for me.

[fishers64]

"After you, Watson..." *opens door* *gestures though*

 

"But I like my universe. What are you going to do about that? My universe. MINE!" *evil villain slams door shut*

 

I would have started Bionicle in 2004, and told all of 2001-03 story from the perspective of the Turaga, since they were the only interesting people (except Takua). The whole thing would have been like Tales of the Masks (except for MNOG). Then I would have gone though 2006-2008 and maybe condensed it down to one year somehow in one high-stakes-fast-paced epic blowout. Then I would have plenty of time for Mata Nui's adventures on Bara Magna and a big epic level GIANT ROBOT FIGHT.

 

And probably did everything you hated. All of it.

 

For realz. Sadly, I don't know how else to do it. I might have given the Toa Nuva more characterization, playing by your rules, but there was so little time. I liked the Toa Nuva in 2008, but in 2001-03 they struck me as bland characters, and so did the Turaga to play into that mysterious vibe. I would have liked the Turaga's characterization and the creepy suspense of what Makuta was going to do next to go into 2001-03 instead of having all that shrouded in mystery. IMO that would have effectively established Makuta as the main villain better.

 

But other people prefer other things, and it has to all balance out. That's why we can't rewrite the universe - none of us can agree on which way to rewrite it. I don't think there is a magic way in which we all can agree. Because, in a sense, it's all our universe. 

[Master Inika]

Like many of us, I am nostalgic for the tribal feel of 2001-2003, I did notice a major discrepancy: this tropical Hawaiian-looking island was inhabited by sapient robots far beyond anything human technology will create in our grandkids' lifetimes. I didn't feel a need for it to be wrapped up soon, but, as some previous posters noted, it would have felt like a cheat if the reason for this odd setting was never explained. I found Metru Nui and the true nature of the Great Spirit to be a perfect explanation.

 

On the subject of 2003, I also wonder how Takua and the Mask of Light could still be used to their full potential. Basically, you couldn't write a decent replacement to the 2003 storyline without abandoning major components of it. I also liked the moral of 2003 (that in a world full of super-powered, experienced defenders, the true hero can be the irresponsible, unimposing sidekick) one of the strongest in the entire line.

 

I also think keeping Makuta as the main antagonist throughout was a better plot device than any alternative. By mid-2003, BIONICLE had already pulled two sets of antagonists seeming out of nowhere. 2002: Ah, the Makuta has been defeated ... Oh no, Bohrok! 2003: Ah, the Bahrag have been defeated ... Oh no, Bohrok-Kal! The revelation of the Rahkshi is the third example of this, but bringing Makuta back kept the fans from having to act surprised every time some new group of baddies appeared. Instead, it made us aware that, though the Toa may win victories against minions, the Makuta was always watching and waiting just out of reach. It raised the stakes and also let BIONICLE focus on the long-term characterization of one Satan-level antagonist.

 

Basically, I'd keep Takanuva, the Rahkshi, and Makuta's return. But really, I see no alternative to the Turaga being Toa Metru on Metru Nui. Remember that their Toahood had to end with the Matoran population somehow being unable to remember it.

[Krazyguy75]

Well, this derailed quickly. Fine, I guess this wasn't popular. I put the line against arguing in because this was not intended to be a debate, it was intended to be a brainstorm for a new universe, hence the title. I'm not suggesting that we leave everything open, things can be explored but the point is that I wanted to keep everything more mystical. I didn't want everything to be explained (like why can't the red star be just that - a red star). If there is no explanation, that is pointless. If it has no mystery, it gets boring. Bionicle leaned more towards overexplanation, and I wished to tip the balance back towards the original, where things could be magical and not explained, where magic masks were magic masks, etc, etc.

 

 

Keep in mind the idea that Mata Nui was a giant robot was, like, the very first thing the story team came up with. It was one of the foundations of the series. It's not like in 2008 one day some dude said, "hey guys I came up with this idea - make him a robot."

 

Hence me keeping it, if you read my post.

 

 

?? Such as? I'm not aware of any consistency problems with that. As far as I know, that was just a taste thing related to the name Teridax. 

 

Everyone calling Makuta Teridax "Makuta", the other Makuta never being mentioned, even people such as the Barraki (who fought the whole Brotherhood), the Shadowed One, Karzahni (the plant), etc, all calling him that, so on so on. If it was a species, it seemed no one knew of other members. Also, Makuta was constantly referred to as Mata Nui's evil brother, which given that Makuta became a species, seems kinda weird. Does that make the other Makuta Mata Nui's cousins?

 

To all the people who said "Intelligent robots inhabiting a tropical island was a plot hole.":

 

I totally get where you are coming from, but it's partially incorrect. Bionicle is the combination of biologic and mechanical elements to make beings. Therefore it makes just as little sense for semi-biological beings (albeit ones that look robotic) to be in Metru Nui, a place where every single thing is mechanical. Overall, they were semi-tribal biological robots with a hawaiian culture living with low tech levels on a tropical island.

 

To all the people who said "I disagree with you rewriting the story and would rather keep it the same, because I liked the original story elements better.":

 

Look, I understand this, but the point behind the thread was as stated: Create a new universe. You can stay in your old one, and that is fine by me. I just wanted to create a new one more in line with what I enjoyed, and if you do not wish to participate, you are under no obligation to. This is a radical new universe for people who wish it had been done differently, but there is no reason both universes cannot exist parallel to each other.

 

Please, if you are going to post in this thread, please don't use this thread primarily to argue; this is for fun, not to start a debate.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Krazyguy75

[bonesiii]

I didn't want everything to be explained (like why can't the red star be just that - a red star). If there is no explanation, that is pointless. If it has no mystery, it gets boring. Bionicle leaned more towards overexplanation

I think the problem is, it's unclear what you want to do with this. Are you asking for advice on what sort of fanfic you want to later make? Or are you just trying to express your personal what you would do differently type things and leave it at that? If you do want to make something out of it, is the attempt here to understand what will be more popular? Or what?

 

And here, too, I'm not sure if you're really grasping that your word choice is coming across as biased. It wasn't necessarily overexplained -- it might be overexplained from your personal preferences, but that's subjective. Do you realize that? I hope so, but it comes across as saying "my preferences are right, and don't argue, I don't want a debate." You could be a lot more diplomatic about it, you know? And objectively, those explanations were needed, and logical. If anything, at times it was under-explained, objectively (precisely to appeal to emotional preferences for some mysteries to remain unanswered).

 

And because the thing people are noticing most about your thread is that you're criticizing things in the canon, people are going to want to reply as if it's a complaint topic and discuss whether or not they agree, etc. If that's not what you're going for, what specifically are you? You say it's for fun, but again, what is fun to you depends on your own tastes, and what is fun for others might not seem fun to you, you know? So, just a clarification of what you hope to accomplish based on this would probably be best, and maybe some edits if you want to avoid looking argumentative and thus avoid debates.

 

You might not realize it but a lot of us probably are more inclined to agree with you than it might seem, too. I wouldn't dismiss the idea as unpopular so fast -- you just gotta keep in mind we've all had more than four years for what we know of Bionicle (except a few new things from Greg) to grow on us and really sink in, if we didn't entirely like it. And this by contrast we just heard of. Anyways, I'll stop rambling, but hope that helps.

 

And to the first bit in this quote -- because it just being a red star is boring and unsatisfactory for how it has behaved (including from the start, the moving around bit to finish constellations, clearly no natural motion). It actually being a spacecraft is striking and to me endlessly inspiring... and the whole revival thing fascinating too, despite all the naysayers. It's THE thing that fans have been discussing since Bionicle ended!

 

Everyone calling Makuta Teridax "Makuta"

That's not a plot hole, since he was called "the" Makuta from the beginning. It was clear it was a title or species name (turned out to be both) from the start, and was sometimes just used without the pronoun for simplicity's sake. Like if everybody calls a king "Sire" or "Your Majesty", it doesn't imply there can't be other kings in the world, or if an alien were to call you Hoomahn ( ), it wouldn't imply there aren't other humans. (Or even if a Matoran referred to a hero as Toa.)

 

the other Makuta never being mentioned

They were mentioned in 2005, when it became relevant, but in 2001-2004, only one Makuta was directly involved. Picture heroes going up against one king, but later expanding to fight an alliance of kings, and deciding not to use their king's personal name (maybe it's King Voldemort or something ).

 

even people such as the Barraki (who fought the whole Brotherhood), the Shadowed One, Karzahni (the plant), etc, all calling him that, so on so on.

At the time of the Barraki he was referred to as the Makuta of Metru Nui, because it was already revealed there were others. And the delay in revealing the name was in part because fan backlash (among some who were more vocal), unexpectedly had already happened, so not revealing a personal name was a concession to them.

 

Anyways.

 

Also, Makuta was constantly referred to as Mata Nui's evil brother, which given that Makuta became a species, seems kinda weird. Does that make the other Makuta Mata Nui's cousins?

Sure, in a sense -- actually, brothers in a sense (and sisters). But Teridax did have something unique in that he was the one the GBs chose to pilot the main robot while Mata Nui would take over the third robot (then when that part of the plan didn't happen, the prototype robot), to work together to heal the planet. There was always something special about him, and likely that bit of destiny was subconsciously noticed by many people, including Makuta. But he was not literally the same kind of being as Mata Nui -- he wanted to be, out of evil ambition, so he described himself that way. And we know why the Turaga simplified things; they were trying to hide the underground world from the Matoran lest any of them try to get back there on their own and run into the Makuta. So they only incorporated things directly relevant to the Matoran on that one island at that time in their symbolic legend, and they didn't really know what Mata Nui was anyways.

 

Now, you probably don't like this simply because it was an explanation, I don't know, but when you actually call that a plot hole, that goes beyond a mere statement of dislike -- then we do need to examine it to see why it isn't. And just on the off chance you weren't aware.

 

I totally get where you are coming from, but it's partially incorrect. Bionicle is the combination of biologic and mechanical elements to make beings. Therefore it makes just as little sense for semi-biological beings (albeit ones that look robotic) to be in Metru Nui, a place where every single thing is mechanical.

Now see, this kind of word choice is why it looks like an invitation to debate. You didn't just say you didn't personally like it emotionally, you said it makes "just as little sense." But it doesn't -- that's not logical. In a world of high tech, it makes sense that plants and organics can be mixed, especially if they're artificial (:-O) organics. But on a primitive island, the tech side can't be made. Mata Nui was always a survivors location. It could have been a ship that crashed from a higher tech island out there somewhere -- didn't necessarily have to be the giant (but you said you liked that part anyways, so yeah).

 

However, that's also a bit of a strawman, since not every single thing there was mechanical. We actually got the first totally organic enemy that year.

 

I just wanted to create a new one more in line with what I enjoyed, and if you do not wish to participate, you are under no obligation to.

Then, despite that the rules now allow this sort of thing, it may be better, in this specific case, simply to do it as a fanfic. Reading somebody else's vision brought to life of an alternate Bionicle is fun -- it's been done before, and depending of course on execution even those of us who like the one we had can usually appreciate alternatives since we can like multiple options. But just creating it in a discussion has all the problems I mentioned before, and that it's lifeless. That's probably more the problem here; it sounds like you want to create something that is about the feelings you got in 2001, but you got those because it was a story, not an outline. Does that maybe help at all?

 

Anywho, I'll try to help steer your topic back onto the questions you raised now, though like I said, if you're asking for us to tell you what your preferences are, the help we can offer there is very limited. But maybe something we'll say will help something click that you'll like, who knows:

 

Possibilities to discuss:

• Would the Turaga be former Toa? It was implied they had went on adventures, but no one said they were Toa. If they were Toa, were they Toa of this island?
• I'm totally undecided on whether to keep Takanuva. On one side it was cool, but on the other I feel like his existence made the original 6 feel weaker, and thus would make the franchise hard to sustain.
• Any character from the original series can make a return, with some small exceptions such as that Makutas other than the original would need a new title.

1) What does it matter what was implied, if you're going to be free to change anything you don't like? But, I don't recall seeing anybody making major complaints, if any, about the revelation of the Matoran -> Toa -> Turaga system. It was thrilling, inspiring, and opened up fascinating story potential. Some of us, myself included, have resisted the canon's relying on it too heavily and not having fascinating Matoran be allowed to be fascinating Matoran who never become Toa sometimes (though in 2006 they did that well, and there were a few notable examples later). But the formula itself I like. And most of us seem to LIKE that the Turaga's specific experiences actually do explain just about everything about Mata Nui Island. But if you oppose explaining things, then it really is a random choice. Flip a coin.

 

2) Most people seem to have liked Takanuva. Personally I might cut the part where he gets the download of information from the mask that Artakha included, because that didn't come across clearly in the movie -- it just seemed for a moment like he became Super Robot Takua With Robot Voice who did plot-needed things for no reason and knew things he couldn't know. Other than that, it worked well. Well, there was the Kolhii fight, but that was Makuta's choice to mock him, so it does at least make sense (but again, I dunno if that's a plus or minus to you...).

 

If anything the problem with him seemed to be that he disappeared mostly into the background in later years, so opposite of what you seem to be suggesting. And I see no real diminishment because Takua was always sort of the main character of Bionicle in 2001-2003. It was disappointing that he wasn't the main protagonist throughout, and his becoming a Toa made it look like that might actually be possible, then he just disappeared. That splintered the plot of the later years from a character-based perspective.

 

3) Nothing much to say here. I liked almost every such character. Especially the other Makuta. That Mazeka plot line I found boring (which is weird because it was trying to be about a strong character that was a Matoran... taste is weird sometimes lol), and a few like that I might cut, but most were pretty good. (Then again, there were so freakin' many, it's hard to keep track of them all, even without running updates, heh.)

Edited July 11, 2014 by bonesiii

[Kalopsia]

Are we rewriting the story with the premise of selling toys, or just from a narrative standpoint? That would kind of influence how I approach this "What If?"

[Krazyguy75]

Whatever, this topic didn't work out. I might do this myself, but mostly all that is happening is arguments, so I'm leaving this topic. You can continue argument or whatever you desire, but I won't be in this thread anymore.

[ALVIS]

If you wanted unanimous agreement and adherence to your specific beliefs about the storyline, I'm afraid you're out of luck -- and as a general rule, you should never expect that sort of thing from anyone in this world.

 

I did link to some early concepts and similar-minded artwork earlier in the thread, though, and I hope you check it out. I think it'd be right up your alley.

[Akavakaku]

For this to work, there would have to have been a place inside Mata Nui where the Matoran once lived. Perhaps Metru Nui could exist, but with little technology and lots of "magic."

Maybe a way for 2003 to work would be for the Toa Nuva to have to defeat the Rahkshi BEFORE Takua becomes a Toa. Basically, the Mask of Light leads them to Kini-Nui, where they assume the Toa of Light is going to appear, but Rahkshi surround them. There's a huge Rahkshi vs Toa fight, splitting up Takua and Jaller and forcing both of them to run and hide (and run some more). Here you'd get to see the Toa using their powers to their full capabilities. After the fight they realize Jaller is injured, and the Toa try to heal him but fail. He gives Takua his last words, Takua realizes he is the Toa of Light, puts on the mask, becomes Takanuva, feels guilty about not realizing his destiny sooner, etc. Then he goes into Mangaia, fights Makuta, Takutanuva, tries to open door, revives Jaller, crushed by door, splits back but remains unconscious. The Toa arrive and take Takanuva back to the surface. He doesn't remember Takutanuva, so they have to explain it to him. They know Makuta isn't dead, and are disappointed Mata Nui wasn't awakened, but the Turaga hail Takanuva for delivering Makuta his greatest defeat yet.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Akavakaku