In the Time Before Time... Wait, How Do You Live Without Time!?&#3

[Banana Gunz]

Okay, so, in Bionicle canon, the MU runs on the three basic element things or whatever they are, Creation, Life, and Time.

 

Corresponding to these are the three legendary masks. Now presumably destroying one of them would destroy that certain aspect in the universe (and probably send all the matoran civilizations into utter peril...).

 

This was of (somewhat) major significance for the Bionicle story "Time Trap" in which Vakama and Makuta team up against Voporak, who wished to steal the Vahi (right?). At the end Vakama made Makuta promise to leave the Island of Mata-Nui alone for 1 whole year (yeah like what utter good that probably did, that's probably not even enough time to get their villages built!) by threatening to destroy the kanohi, which would rip time to shreds or something like that...

 

Whaaa!?!?

 

So my questions here are, how did the matoran live before the Vahi's creation!?!? If the Vahi was destroyed, then there would be no time. It was always prophesized that the mask would be created but there was the time before it was created which means that there was no time before it was created which means that everything before the creation of the Vahi existed but is... in a very interesting state of being. But we know that can't be possible so what's the deal with that!?!?

 

ALSO, the Vahi opens up the window to the Great Beings brilliance/madness even more. If it was destroyed would it only mess up time inside the Mata-Nui robot, or would it affect THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE!?!?!?!?!?!? Are these Great Beings even bigger geniuses than we had originally thought? (Oddly enough though their brilliance seems a bit off, they can create a mask that can control time but they can't make baterra that work, a Marendar that won't turn on automatically... wha!?)

 

So can you guys help me out? This just seems a little off to me... what do you all think?

[Ballom Nom Nom]

I'm pretty sure the Vahi only applies within the MU, because if you're a Great Being it doesn't make sense to allow your nanotech robots to potentially unravel the fabric of the entire universe.

 

As for there being time before the mask, there obviously was, as events and time progressed forward. I think the idea is that once made the Vahi had the ability to control time in the MU, but that doesn't mean time was nonexistent prior.

 

~B~

[LordofBionicles]

Because after the legendary masks were created then those "fudamental elements" COULD be controlled.

[bonesiii]

I'm replying as I read, but since it looks like you take a while to get to this in the post, lemme cut to the chase by replying right to the title and maybe save you some confusion quicker:

In the Time Before Time... Wait, How Do You Live Without Time!?

"Before Time" and phrases like that were poetic.

 

That was simple, right?

 

When they specifically refer to "the Before Time", that is the easiest to understand; it means "the era before this era" -- or "the time that came before" (before a major event that they use as a reckoning anchor to divide eras, especially the Great Cataclysm).

 

Time Before Time was a play on this and the idea that prior to the Great Cataclysm, the Matoran's memories are lost, so to them it feels like it was before time. It has no canon significance in terms of physics or temporal mechanics.

 

[update after reading the rest: Well, now I'm not sure if you were talking about that saying or not. Anywho... in case it helps. ]

 

 

Okay, so, in Bionicle canon, the MU runs on the three basic element things or whatever they are, Creation, Life, and Time.

They're now called Legendary Powers.

 

 

Corresponding to these are the three legendary masks. Now presumably destroying one of them would destroy that certain aspect in the universe (and probably send all the matoran civilizations into utter peril...).

Not exactly. Since you're talking about time, it's less clearcut, but with Life, it's clearly the opposite -- destroying it unleashes life energy catastrophically, bestowing life on everything in range (basically). Destroying the Vahi would likewise release lots of time energy. But the result of this would destroy the linear nature of time (which is often poetically described as destroying time, even in English), but not end time at all. Greg confirmed that Vakama's description in Time Trap of what it would do is accurate.

 

(Destroying the Mask of Creation does apparently clearly result in a loss of creativity, though it's thought that this has to also be through an unleashing of energy, not a draining, to be consistent with the others, and maybe it overloads creativity centers of the brain, burning them out.)

 

Vakama made Makuta promise to leave the Island of Mata-Nui alone for 1 whole year (yeah like what utter good that probably did

That time was vital, actually, for getting defenses set up. Of course, we know that Makuta had no interest in overwhelming them right away anyways, but Vakama didn't know that.

 

that's probably not even enough time to get their villages built!)

Not in their entirety in the way we see them in MNOG, certainly, but a year is a long time, especially when you brought resources on airships. Plenty to set up defenses. (Again, all of which Makuta could have easily overrun had he really wanted to, but it still makes sense for Vakama to try the best he could.)

 

*wonders what this could possibly have to do with the title question........*

 

by threatening to destroy the kanohi, which would rip time to shreds or something like that...

 

Whaaa!?!?

 

So my questions here are, how did the matoran live before the Vahi's creation!?!? If the Vahi was destroyed, then there would be no time.

Ahh.... This is an oooold misconception, lol. Anywho, the Vahi had nothing to do with allowing (norrmal, linear) time to exist. It was just a superweapon with control over time. It's a bit like asking how people's atoms could function prior to the invention of the atomic bomb. Or, for that matter, how in various sci-fi stories people lived before the invention of time travel.

 

And again, Vakama clearly described something quite different from "no time". Might wanna go back and read it. No time would just be liking hitting the pause button on a video (at best) -- no motion anymore at all. Rather, it would be way too much time. (But "no guarantee of proper linear time" could be a poetic definition of "no time".)

 

It was always prophesized that the mask would be created

I don't recall hearing that, but it was always possible it could be. The Legendary Powers are basic powers of the giant robot's environment, being tied into its operations in a mysterious way, and can optionally be controlled in a Legendary Mask (and subpowers of them can be controlled with normal masks, tools, or character powers, like Voporak), with its own special rules like the rule that there can only be one.

 

but there was the time before it was created which means that there was no time before it was created

This conclusion does not follow from the premises. Knowing that something happens to time if the bomb blows up does not at all imply that the resulting state must have existed before the bomb was even made. If anything it implies quite the opposite!

 

If it was destroyed would it only mess up time inside the Mata-Nui robot

If it's inside at the time, definitely correct. It gets confusing if it's outside at the time; it should still be a catastrophic release of time energy, but it would presumably have a range, and might not result in the chaos-time Vakama described but something more like super slowness or super speed.

 

Oddly enough though their brilliance seems a bit off, they can create a mask that can control time but they can't make baterra that work

Lol, that's not even remotely odd! In the one case they were just using what existed in the fundamental nature of the energized protodermis; their version just mimics what that does, probably by studying its molecular structure. The other is ground-up programming, and the chances of a glitch in such a thing would be high, especially since they were made in a rush in response to a war. Those are two almost totally different things. Add to that that it's likely different individuals were working on those products; molecular scientists probably aren't the same ones as robot programmers, though it's quite possible.

 

Anyways, hope this helps. Advice for the future -- you seem to have a bit of a tendency to make unfounded assumptions which then create contradictions. Instead, if the actual canon facts seem to contradict assumptions you made, you should take that as strong evidence that that assumption is wrong and abandon it.

 

It also really helps to read up on what BS01 says on stuff, though they can't fit everything of course (checking just now, the MU-only destruction thing is mentioned, though admittedly it doesn't go into a lot of detail -- here I would recommend considering searching the Greg quotes via the Compendium if you want the nitty-griity). But we're glad to help anyways.

[Banana Gunz]

*snip* *snip*

Yeah, you bring up a lot of good points that explain everything. Thanks!

 

I actually do tend to go on BS01 and another Bionicle Wiki quite a lot, its just some tiny details slip from my mind (who knew there was something called a 'Fohrok'?) and some things aren't quite explained well.

 

The biggest problem is probably how I interpret information when its not clear, it can get a little mixed up. But the assumptions I have been posting in some of my recent posts don't create contradictions, they're made to point out existing contradictions that are there (especially if there isn't much to say against it) and see how others think that they might be solved/how I am wrong and how it really works.

 

I'll probably check out this fancy-shmancy compendium you speak up soon, I'm just focusing a lot of my energy on a new MOC (because it's summer and my school schedule runs from me waking up at 5:00 AM to getting back home at 6:00 PM, minus dinner and homework) that I want to get done as quickly as possible.

 

Thanks for all the help! 'Tis good stuff mate!

[Jakura Nuva]

Okay, so, in Bionicle canon, the MU runs on the three basic element things or whatever they are, Creation, Life, and Time.

 

Corresponding to these are the three legendary masks. Now presumably destroying one of them would destroy that certain aspect in the universe (and probably send all the matoran civilizations into utter peril...).

 

This was of (somewhat) major significance for the Bionicle story "Time Trap" in which Vakama and Makuta team up against Voporak, who wished to steal the Vahi (right?). At the end Vakama made Makuta promise to leave the Island of Mata-Nui alone for 1 whole year (yeah like what utter good that probably did, that's probably not even enough time to get their villages built!) by threatening to destroy the kanohi, which would rip time to shreds or something like that...

 

Whaaa!?!?

 

So my questions here are, how did the matoran live before the Vahi's creation!?!? If the Vahi was destroyed, then there would be no time. It was always prophesized that the mask would be created but there was the time before it was created which means that there was no time before it was created which means that everything before the creation of the Vahi existed but is... in a very interesting state of being. But we know that can't be possible so what's the deal with that!?!?

 

ALSO, the Vahi opens up the window to the Great Beings brilliance/madness even more. If it was destroyed would it only mess up time inside the Mata-Nui robot, or would it affect THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE!?!?!?!?!?!? Are these Great Beings even bigger geniuses than we had originally thought? (Oddly enough though their brilliance seems a bit off, they can create a mask that can control time but they can't make baterra that work, a Marendar that won't turn on automatically... wha!?)

 

So can you guys help me out? This just seems a little off to me... what do you all think?

 

I always thought that time had always existed before the Vahi, but when it was created it immediately became the "controller" of it.

[BioGio]

My first thought on seeing this topic's title was one definition of "eternal":  existing outside of time.  For instance, Platonic Forms would be considered to exist outside of time (and space); it's not just that they keep on existing forever, but that they are perfect and exist independent of time and space.  The circle is a Form, but the circle you can draw is just an imperfect representation of that Form.  The circle that you draw exists in time (it comes into existence when you draw it, and you can erase it), but the Form has neither beginning nor end.

(With my sincerest apologies to nominalists.)

 

As for how exactly this relates to the Vahi/MU...  I suppose a timeless MU would be an abstract object/Form/set of Forms, whereas the real MU is a predicate?  I don't exactly have a degree in Matoran philosophy, so I'm not quite sure.

 

- BioGio

[Element Lord of Milk]

I Always took it to mean that time was working perfectly until the Vahi was made, at which point it was harnessed by the Vahi.

 

So if the Vahi was destroyed, time would suddenly be free again, which would result in a sudden burst of time energy that would disrupt the flow of time.

 

I could be wrong though.

[NorikSigma]

The Vahi only controls time inside the robot.

 

So before that, time was normal. It's just that the Vahi can control it if a wearer chooses to.

 

Edit: Read bonesiii's explanation. It's complete and understandable.

 

As always.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Norik Of Celtania