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The Kingdom's Toa ?


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In the Kingdom Alternate Universe, the Takanuva made six new Toa: Balta, Kapura, Tanma, Dalu, Defilak and Velika.

 

Now, to become a Toa, you must be destined to become one, and have Toa Power inside of you, right ? So my question is: Are these matoran still destined to become Toa in the Main universe ? 

 

(Excluding Velika, I think... or maybe not  :P)

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The destiny of a character can apparently differ from universe to universe. That said, they aren't necessarily destined not to become Toa. In other words, it's possible, but we don't really know.

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Keep in mind that Dark Mirror's Takua was not destined to become a Toa; it seems he wasn't destined to do much of anything. So destinies can differ across alternate timelines.

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Short answer: Apparently.

 

The destiny of a character can apparently differ from universe to universe.

It seems unlikely this is that kind of destiny, since as HTW said, those destined have some Toa Energy already inside them. Destiny about how, when, and maybe even why they become Toa could change, but it still seems like they would always be destined to be Toa, unless the timeline diverged at some point prior to their creation and for whatever reason they didn't get some Toa Energy.

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Short answer: Apparently.

 

The destiny of a character can apparently differ from universe to universe.

It seems unlikely this is that kind of destiny, since as HTW said, those destined have some Toa Energy already inside them. Destiny about how, when, and maybe even why they become Toa could change, but it still seems like they would always be destined to be Toa, unless the timeline diverged at some point prior to their creation and for whatever reason they didn't get some Toa Energy.

 

But hey... maybe there are tons of Matoran out there who actually have Toa Power inside them, but they don't actually need to be Toa at the moment ?  :shrugs: Maybe there are even Matoran who had toa power inside them but were killed or something.

 

And now that everyone's gone to SM, is there still a reason for them to become Toa ? 

Edited by HoloTheWise
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Short answer: Apparently.

 

The destiny of a character can apparently differ from universe to universe.

It seems unlikely this is that kind of destiny, since as HTW said, those destined have some Toa Energy already inside them. Destiny about how, when, and maybe even why they become Toa could change, but it still seems like they would always be destined to be Toa, unless the timeline diverged at some point prior to their creation and for whatever reason they didn't get some Toa Energy.

 

But hey... maybe there are tons of Matoran out there who actually have Toa Power inside them, but they don't actually need to be Toa at the moment ?  :shrugs: Maybe there are even Matoran who had toa power inside them but were killed or something.

 

And now that everyone's gone to SM, is there still a reason for them to become Toa ? 

 

With Marendar running around, I think we need them more than ever.

 

And Velika is trying to kill Tuyet... who has the Nui Stone... and his Po-Matoran body has the potential to become a toa...

Agori, be very afraid.

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Nonsense. Marendar is the reason for destined Matoran not to become Toa, because Toa are what it was built to kill.

 

I don't think Marendar is any threat to the Agori whatsoever, or anyone who's not a Toa. After all, it was built with the intent of saving the Agori from tyrannical Toa. It would be counter-intuitive for it to go after Agori.

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"You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant."
-- Harlan Ellison

 

 

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Nonsense. Marendar is the reason for destined Matoran not to become Toa, because Toa are what it was built to kill.

 

I don't think Marendar is any threat to the Agori whatsoever, or anyone who's not a Toa. After all, it was built with the intent of saving the Agori from tyrannical Toa. It would be counter-intuitive for it to go after Agori.

I was referring to to the possible Nui Stone powered Toa Velika.

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Keep in mind that Dark Mirror's Takua was not destined to become a Toa; it seems he wasn't destined to do much of anything. So destinies can differ across alternate timelines.

But that could be because the Avohkii only had enough energy to transform one toa. We dont know whether kingdom takua would have transformed with a proper toa stone.

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Keep in mind that Dark Mirror's Takua was not destined to become a Toa; it seems he wasn't destined to do much of anything. So destinies can differ across alternate timelines.

But that could be because the Avohkii only had enough energy to transform one toa. We dont know whether kingdom takua would have transformed with a proper toa stone.

 

Somehow I missed that post... Yeah, we don't know that that Takua wasn't destined. Presumably he was. And Toa Stones (or mask equivs) should have a finite amount of charge, so yeah. Takanuva also said he was "testing a theory", implying the theory about the mask being out of TE. Unless Greg somewhere said he wasn't destined?

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3. If the OoMN was responsible for making Krakua a toa, why wasn’t the DM OoMN responsible for making DM Krakua a toa?

 

3) Because destiny was different in the DM universe, in the same way Takua was not destined to become a Toa there. Krakua was made a Toa in our universe because of the threat of the BOM -- in the DM universe, the BOM is not a threat.

 

*If Matoran are destined to become a Toa in one dimension, are they also destined to become one in another dimension ? Like Tanma in the Kingdom Alternate Universe ? 

 

2) No. Because Takua was not destined to become a Toa in the dimension where Tuyet ruled

 

It's also clearified that changes of events around in alternate dimensions can affect who is destined to become Toa, as well they should: 

 

This is a clarification and explanation to an answer I got yesterday from Greg that really bugged me:

 

Greg, yesterday I asked you: We know the Toa Metru and the Toa Mahri remained Matoran in the DM universe. On the flip side, are there any Matoran in the main dimension that are Toa in the DM universe?

 

Your answer was: Not to my knowledge. If they aren’t Toa yet in our universe, then they weren’t destined to be so yet, and time tracks at the same rate there as here.

 

From this answer, it’s inferred that a Matoran can’t become a Toa in one universe, without becoming a Toa in the other. This is directly contradictory though as Jaller is a Matoran in DM universe, and a Toa in the main universe. Since he’s become a Toa in the main universe, that means the time has already that he was destined to become a Toa has already come, and yet he is still a Matoran in the DM universe. As such, it is possible to be a Toa in one universe and not the other. I just don’t understand why the DM universe’s Toa are dependent on the existence of a Toa in the main universe.

 

Jaller as an example works especially well. Jaller’s destiny in the main universe was the save Mata-Nui’s life. Since Mata-Nui was never dying in the DM universe, and no being can’t have a destiny, it can only mean that Jaller’s destiny changed. Why is it so far fetched then that a situation may have arisen in the DM universe in which a Matoran was destined to become a Toa. Since the past 3,500 years have been so different, it is very possible, if not very probable, that that situation wouldn’t have arisen in the main universe?

 

If I am understanding what you are saying, you’re saying:

A. a Dark Mirror Toa is dependent on the existence of a Main Universe Toa

B. A Main Universe Toa can is independent on the existence of a Dark Mirror Toa

 

If that is correct, why then would this possibly be the case?

 

 

Different case, though. You are asking if there are Matoran in the DM universe who became Toa, but did not become Toa in the main universe, and I answered that I was not aware of any. Now why did I answer that?

 

Simple. There are Toa in our universe who are still Matoran in DM because the events that required them to become Toa -- events related to the Makuta rebellion -- never happened in DM, thus their destinies were different. There were not corresponding events that forced other Matoran to become Toa who did not become them in our universe, because you have had 3500 years of rigidly enforced order with hundreds of Toa active the entire time. There have been less disasters and crises, not more, and so no need for "extra" Toa who don’t exist in our world.

 

So what I am saying is, destinies (to be a Toa or not be one) are the same in both universes unless there is some compelling reason for them not to be. The lack of a Makuta rebellion is a major change which altered destinies ... but there have not been other corresponding major threats/disasters which required new Toa coming into being who did not do so in our universe. Things are more secure and more peaceful in the DM universe than in ours.

 

Greg

Edited by fishers64
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Well that's confusing. If the Dark Mirror universe split from the main one around the time of Tuyet's fight with Lhikan, Takua would have been a Matoran for gobs of years before that, so you'd think the Toa Energy in him from the main universe would have to be in him still. Does TE in destined Matoran disappear?

 

Possible, but certainly seems different from how it's been taken all this time. :shrugs:

 

Unless that universe actually split in minor ways before Takua was made?

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This brings the question... Was the Avohkii even created in Dark Mirror ? We can't know for sure, and even if Takua was destined to be a Toa, he dies in DM, proving my point that Matoran destined to become Toa CAN die without completing their destinies  :shrugs:

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Well if they couldnt die and found out about their destiny somehow, they could exploit their invincibility and become a genre savvy plot shielded Mary Sue which would eliminate all conflict.

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This brings the question... Was the Avohkii even created in Dark Mirror ? We can't know for sure, and even if Takua was destined to be a Toa, he dies in DM, proving my point that Matoran destined to become Toa CAN die without completing their destinies  :shrugs:

But he wasn't destined.

 

The great beings created Takua with the potential to become a toa in every universe, but only in some of them was he destined to transform.  In the rest, his toa potential was unused.  

As far as I am aware, in the Dark Mirror, Kojol never attacked Artakha, so the Avohkii was never removed.  Takua was not needed as a Toa of Light, so destiny ensured that he only came in contact with an Avohkii that was already drained of its toa power, and didn't transform.

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This brings the question... Was the Avohkii even created in Dark Mirror ? We can't know for sure, and even if Takua was destined to be a Toa, he dies in DM, proving my point that Matoran destined to become Toa CAN die without completing their destinies  :shrugs:

But he wasn't destined.

 

The great beings created Takua with the potential to become a toa in every universe, but only in some of them was he destined to transform.  In the rest, his toa potential was unused.  

As far as I am aware, in the Dark Mirror, Kojol never attacked Artakha, so the Avohkii was never removed.  Takua was not needed as a Toa of Light, so destiny ensured that he only came in contact with an Avohkii that was already drained of its toa power, and didn't transform.

 

That makes sense. I retract my earlier confusion. :P (Assuming this theory is right anyways.)
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I always thought that it was because that since Takanuva already "used" the mask to become a Toa, its trigger power was used up and can't turn any more Matoran into Toa. Kinda like how a Toa Stone can't be used more than once without recharging. :)

 

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This brings the question... Was the Avohkii even created in Dark Mirror ? We can't know for sure, and even if Takua was destined to be a Toa, he dies in DM, proving my point that Matoran destined to become Toa CAN die without completing their destinies :shrugs:

But he wasn't destined.

 

The great beings created Takua with the potential to become a toa in every universe, but only in some of them was he destined to transform. In the rest, his toa potential was unused.

As far as I am aware, in the Dark Mirror, Kojol never attacked Artakha, so the Avohkii was never removed. Takua was not needed as a Toa of Light, so destiny ensured that he only came in contact with an Avohkii that was already drained of its toa power, and didn't transform.

Quote right. Greg confirmed that destinies change in different universes, sonI assume "destiny" would be a subtle programming to ensure that every Matoran gets to do what is most beneficial to his or her universe.

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This brings the question... Was the Avohkii even created in Dark Mirror ? We can't know for sure, and even if Takua was destined to be a Toa, he dies in DM, proving my point that Matoran destined to become Toa CAN die without completing their destinies :shrugs:

But he wasn't destined.

 

The great beings created Takua with the potential to become a toa in every universe, but only in some of them was he destined to transform. In the rest, his toa potential was unused.

As far as I am aware, in the Dark Mirror, Kojol never attacked Artakha, so the Avohkii was never removed. Takua was not needed as a Toa of Light, so destiny ensured that he only came in contact with an Avohkii that was already drained of its toa power, and didn't transform.

Quote right. Greg confirmed that destinies change in different universes, sonI assume "destiny" would be a subtle programming to ensure that every Matoran gets to do what is most beneficial to his or her universe.

 

Greg also said that the Great Beings did NOT create destiny and that they themselves are subject to it.  Remember, Energized Protodermis (which relies on destiny) functions on Spherus Manga, which was not created by the Great Beings.

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Guys, I found this in the Chat !

 

3. In Dark Mirror Takanuva tries to put on his Kanohi Avohkii on Takua to see if he would transform into a Toa of Light. Nothing happened. Why is this? Is it possible that it is because the code in the main universe's Mask of Light is different than the Toa Empire's Mask of Light?

3) No, it's because Takua in that universe is not destined to become a Toa

 

It was answered today. So the main dimension Mask Of Light can still transform destined Matoran into Toa, but it couldn't transform Takua, because he was not made with Toa Energy in DM.

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So the main dimension Mask Of Light can still transform destined Matoran into Toa

He didn't actually say that, did he? I suppose it's possible Artakha put a lot of Toa Energy into it, though. :shrugs: But I really don't like this explanation -- it needlessly complicates things, when "the mask was out of TE" was a perfectly reasonable explanation that fit all facts we were given easily. I hope this hasn't actually been a "longstanding forgetfulness retcon." :shrugs:

 

but it couldn't transform Takua, because he was not made with Toa Energy in DM

Nor did he say that. Like I said, we don't know when DM split away, but if it was around the time of Tuyet's original story, they would both be the same universe prior to that, so he would have to be made with TE.

 

And that bit about a code is odd. Greg might not be commenting on that, though.

 

Edit: Although, if the mask does have a "contingency-extra" amount of TE, it does open up the possibility that Takanuva could make new Toa for a while without becoming a Turaga. I suppose that works. :P But it would be nice if he'd clearly confirm exactly what's going on, then, 'cuz the old understanding was simple and straightforward.

Edited by bonesiii

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The thing is, Greg seems to be wording it as if it was self-evident from DM that Takua wasn't destined. Which seems to imply that if he was, the mask could actually have Toa-ized him.

 

Both are possible, yeah, but seems odd with his wording.

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Here it is!

 

So there were questions about DM Takua and why he didn't transform. So I asked and got answers.

 

Everybody, please stop asking Greg questions that would land him in trouble with LEGO.

 

Hi Greg,

 

I have two questions concerning some points in Bionicle

 

1) You previously stated that DM Takua was not destined to transform into Takanuva. That however left a question of whether or not the Prime universe Avohkii still had the "charge" to transform Matoran. If for example another Takua was destined to transform, does the Prime Universe Avohkii have the sufficient "charge" to activate that Takua's Toa Energy? In other words, can the Prime Universe Avohkii still transform Matoran?

 

2) We know that Lhikan's team was slowly killed off before Teridax took over Metru Nui. So why didn't Lhikan call for help from the other islands? I assume he had many Toa willing to help him who served in the Toa-DH war, and those contacts would be willing to help. Can we assume that Teridax-Dume or the hired Dark Hunters intercepted any such messages to the other day islands?

 

Thank you for your time!

 

 

1) I would guess no, it does not.

 

2) That would make sense.

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