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Will the old building system ever come back?


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Straight of the bat, I will admit that I really miss the old Bionicle Building (Pin & Axle) system. I'm not too big a fan of the Ball & Socket System; HF Sets tend to have a different, less awe-striking feel for me. And I prefer the building experience the P&A gave, rather than that of B&S...

 

I really hope Lego, if possible, can incorporate both. I may post up my ideas in this thread if I get the time to draw it out, but I think this would open up more possibilities for set building and MOCers alike...

 

So, Do you think Lego will bring back the old P&A? Or will the B&S System wholly and permanently replace it? Would you want back the old P&A?

 

 

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The CCBS (the system used in HF) is here to stay for the foreseeable future. I'm very ambivalent towards it, and I hope they start tweaking it a little so some of its shortcomings (such as large, solid torso pieces with few uses outside of humanoid torsos) can be fixed as time moves on. Right now, it does one thing well: make humanoids with the same basic structure. It's starting to break out of that with sets like Furno Jet Machine having a solid torso build that gives a little more complexity than the solid torso.

 

I think it'd be nice to see more technic-style connections coming back, but even if they do, the system we know now has fully replaced the Bionicle system, for better or for worse.

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I'd like it if they remade some of the older pieces with the new and improved joints (none of the HF pieces I own look like they're going to break anytime soon). I prefer the more durable joints, but I dislike the simplicity of the armour plating. The original Bionicle building system had a lot more variety in what kind of joints could be attached, whereas HF really only has a handful of different interchangeable plates. I think that's part of the reason HF's gone down in popularity, because they're reusing too many pieces without creating or changing anything. 

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Yeah I'm thinking pin and axle is gone. However, it does look like Hero factory has a pretty improved system over *shudders* Stars. Now I wont lie, the Stars are pretty cool visually and in promotional art, but man those locked joints are just as bad and clunky as 08 Av-Matoran which I strongly dislike. From what I've seen though, I think that the ball joints are a stay but hopefully they don't sacrifice movability!

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Pins and axles never completely went away, and probably never will. Some Hero Factory sets like Dragon Bolt, Evo XL Machine, and Breez Flea Machine use them extensively. However, we will probably never see a building system like what BIONICLE used replace the CCBS. The CCBS just allows for so much more opportunity. A 3M or 5M Hero Factory shell has more connection points than a Toa Metru or Piraka thigh shell, and those connection points allow it to be attached to beams at a wider range of angles. Some of the best BIONICLE shells in terms of functional versatility were the ones introduced in 2007 for the Barraki and Toa Mahri, but even these could not be attached to a ball joint at the end of a leg or arm beam without attaching a separate ball cup. Overall, there is definitely room for the current building system to advance further and integrate pin and axle building styles in creative ways, but there's no sense going back to an older building system that offered fewer creative options per piece.

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I only collected the first few "waves" of HF, but then I grew disenchanted with the new building system and stopped collecting LEGOs all together. If and or when BIONICLE comes back, I would not mind if they completely skipped the new HF ball and socket stuff and went back to exactly how the old sets were, from 2001-2009. More complex builds in my opinion, and more fun to construct as well. 

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The newer HF building system dissapoints me. It brought so much new to the table and fixed so many problems with the old system but I feel like it went too far. Now when I look at the HF sets, all I see is armor on skeletons. Bionicle had a more interesting and complicated build which allowed, it's almost like HF is just trying to make customizable action figures, rather than entirely build-able ones (I know that they are completely build-able. but what are you building? It's the same thing every time so after you built it once you've built it all). Only the larger sets and more recent Invasion from Below mechs are improvements but they are somewhat exceptions because they do not improve the structure of the more common, individual, and completely humanoid (for the most part) sets. 

 

I miss the intricate and mechanical details of Bionicle that made the sets look so cool, though it was too complicated at times and made it hard for more inexperienced builders to make a cool model, which is why it got so much more simple towards to end.

 

I think a merging of the two build styles is optimal, for it would provide a good balance between the technic heavy Bionicle and the simple HF. I imagine a good way of doing this is to have each limb/body part be made more complex with smaller parts, which fit together simply on single ball joints (kind of like how I make my MOC's). This way the sets can have an interesting and intricate look and be fully customizable while still being simple enough to fit together into a basic humanoid figure and have fun with. 

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Somebody doesn't like the Inika builds....

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The Inika build wasn't that bad. I liked the Toa Inika when they first came out but it did become a bit redundant. The whole blaster thing was annoying too. Especially Kongu Mahri (RIP in peace you beautiful green monster). But seriously I think something completely new would be refreshing

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I do like the CCBS, but I wish they had more slots for pins on the arms, there's only a few large bone pieces that have holes in them. I can make some pretty good things for the torso using the HF bodies, but the legs look majorly out of proportion with the amount of detail used.

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Yeah, the CCBS is here to stay. I really don't mind the ball/socket connections and I think it opens up new ways of building that weren't possible with the old system. What I do mind though is the lack of visually appealing pieces. Now I know that's not really a flaw of the system and I think Lego is improving in that regard, but a little more variety in armor or shell pieces would be nice.

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I suspect pins and axles will be incorporated irregularly in a couple of larger sets but for the most part I suspect the majority of the designs will be similar to those we've seen for the past few years.

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If it's a mix, an entirely different building system, or the old one, I just hope that they're not using those clunky fists for hands. The fist is the size of the figure's heads. In the special episodes when you can see them in full-hand form, it looks like if they facepalm they're going to kill themselves. I'm surprised that they don't trip on them.

 

As for the old system coming back, they did apparently use quite a few TECHNIC peices in Invasion from Below. I'm guessing it'll be a mix.

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If we're talking about what we'd like to see, I think a mixture would be interesting. Obviously a mixture wouldn't be old Bionicle parts and the newer HF designs, but I feel like they should do slight changes, give it more of a BIONICLE feel? I've never gotten a HF set so I can't say for sure, but making slightly less armor over skeleton would be pretty decent to me.

 

A lot of the HF designs are really good looking (for instance, Rocka from 2012) and I think the general structure is good. In a perfect world, I'd like to say I hope for a nice base structure that changes between sets and allows for similar yet different builds. However, knowing Lego we'd get the base structure and it wouldn't change for a good 5 years or so.

 

My biggest concern would be that Lego continues to recycle the armor pieces on the HF builds. While I know that they work for most things, recolors of the same set with different masks and weapons don't sound great (though BIONICLE did the exact same thing). I feel like that was at least fixed slightly in the later years, I feel like HF hasn't done that as much.

 

I would also like to see titan sets that return to a more traditional technic build, rather than very large figures as HF seems to have done mostly. Interestingly, I never realized that HF kind of dropped large sets after the first year (they had the Furno bike and Dropship, but in later years the biggest sets were titans). Though if BIONICLE came back next year I doubt giant sets would be in order, at least at first.

 

In general, I feel like if they vary the armor and weapons I'd feel better about the system if used for BIONICLE. It's kind of hard to say "apply older BIONICLE looking armor and weapons and we're good" but that's kind of how I'd like to see it.

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I think when it comes to making Ultrabuild look more like Bionicle, a better way to do would be having more detailed and gappy armor pieces. Most of the current pieces are very smooth, whereas almost every Bionicle piece had tons of detail. I also think some more symmetry would help as well. Past the Nuva, most sets were symmetrical. From my experience with HF (2010-2012) there's a lot of seemingly arbitrary asymmetry.

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I think when it comes to making Ultrabuild look more like Bionicle, a better way to do would be having more detailed and gappy armor pieces. Most of the current pieces are very smooth, whereas almost every Bionicle piece had tons of detail. I also think some more symmetry would help as well. Past the Nuva, most sets were symmetrical. From my experience with HF (2010-2012) there's a lot of seemingly arbitrary asymmetry.

I hope we get more detailed feet,leg,arm,and chest pieces because most of hero factorys are fairly bland. Not to mention we need new weapon pieces because hero factory reuses alot of theirs.

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I think when it comes to making Ultrabuild look more like Bionicle, a better way to do would be having more detailed and gappy armor pieces. Most of the current pieces are very smooth, whereas almost every Bionicle piece had tons of detail. I also think some more symmetry would help as well. Past the Nuva, most sets were symmetrical. From my experience with HF (2010-2012) there's a lot of seemingly arbitrary asymmetry.

I hope we get more detailed feet,leg,arm,and chest pieces because most of hero factorys are fairly bland. Not to mention we need new weapon pieces because hero factory reuses alot of theirs.

 

Reusing weapons is a good thing, not a bad thing. Do you want to know what the opposite of reusing things is? Wasting them. Releasing a new weapon that you will only ever use once (like Toa Lhikan's Lava Greatswords, Toa Mahri Hahli's giant ugly claw, Toa Mata Lewa's axe, or various Piraka weapons) is purely wasteful and is something BIONICLE should have stopped doing early on.

 

Furthermore, a lot of BIONICLE weapons did get reused frequently over the years. Just look at Toa Mata Gali's hooks, Lewa Nuva's air katana, or Takanuva's staff blade. Do you know what it means when a weapon does not get reused? It means it was not designed well enough to have lasting usefulness in the first place. A lot of today's Hero Factory and Legends of Chima weapons are designed for versatility. The same pieces are used to make CHI Laval's sword, CHI Fluminox's bow, CHI Cragger's axe, and whatever you call that weapon CHI Panthar has. That automatically makes them more useful than Lewa's classic axe, which was such a specialized design it could barely be used for anything besides an axe.

 

As a bonus, designing weapon pieces for versatility means a lot more Hero Factory and Legends of Chima weapons are actually built, not just specialized one-piece weapons that aren't designed to do anything besides bash enemies and look pretty.

 

Personally, I feel like the current range of Hero Factory parts that you think "look bland" have similar merit. They aren't as frustratingly specific as many BIONICLE parts. You can use the same pieces for either a purely mechanical character, a biomechanical character, or an armored organic character. Of course, some stylization is inherent to the system when depicting organic characters in the system, but at least they aren't riddled with unnecessary molded pistons.

 

How do BIONICLE parts compare? Well, the Glatorian and Agori were originally said to be 100% organic beings with armor — Greg only revised this to 85% organic and 15% mechanical when it was pointed out to him that he had previously called the set forms the most official forms of the characters, and the sets were covered in obvious mechanical details like pistons and even cylindrical hinges for their jaws and fingers. Even with that revision, there is hardly a single organic-looking characteristic on most Glatorian and Agori designs — what isn't covered with plate armor is plainly mechanical-looking.

 

If you feel like BIONICLE's aesthetic with all its mechanical details was integral and specific to the BIONICLE theme, you are acknowledging the very problem with that aesthetic — it was too specific for its own good, and its versatility suffered as a result. There's a reason we never saw constraction sets from Galidor, Knights' Kingdom II, and Ben 10 Alien Force sharing parts with BIONICLE the to the same extent that constraction sets from Ben 10 Alien Force, Super Heroes, and Legends of Chima have all shared parts with Hero Factory and with each other. The LEGO Group designed this building system with versatility in mind, on both a functional and an aesthetic level.

 

No. They think that kids are to stupid for complicated Technic styles. They've really dumbed it down huh?

Not at all (this set is every bit as technically complex as any BIONICLE canister set ever was, albeit using Technic for actual functions and not filler), but you're welcome to keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.

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I think when it comes to making Ultrabuild look more like Bionicle, a better way to do would be having more detailed and gappy armor pieces. Most of the current pieces are very smooth, whereas almost every Bionicle piece had tons of detail. I also think some more symmetry would help as well. Past the Nuva, most sets were symmetrical. From my experience with HF (2010-2012) there's a lot of seemingly arbitrary asymmetry.

I hope we get more detailed feet,leg,arm,and chest pieces because most of hero factorys are fairly bland. Not to mention we need new weapon pieces because hero factory reuses alot of theirs.
Reusing weapons is a good thing, not a bad thing. Do you want to know what the opposite of reusing things is? Wasting them. Releasing a new weapon that you will only ever use once (like Toa Lhikan's Lava Greatswords, Toa Mahri Hahli's giant ugly claw, Toa Mata Lewa's axe, or various Piraka weapons) is purely wasteful and is something BIONICLE should have stopped doing early on.

 

Furthermore, a lot of BIONICLE weapons did get reused frequently over the years. Just look at Toa Mata Gali's hooks, Lewa Nuva's air katana, or Takanuva's staff blade. Do you know what it means when a weapon does not get reused? It means it was not designed well enough to have lasting usefulness in the first place. A lot of today's Hero Factory and Legends of Chima weapons are designed for versatility. The same pieces are used to make CHI Laval's sword, CHI Fluminox's bow, CHI Cragger's axe, and whatever you call that weapon CHI Panthar has. That automatically makes them more useful than Lewa's classic axe, which was such a specialized design it could barely be used for anything besides an axe.

 

As a bonus, designing weapon pieces for versatility means a lot more Hero Factory and Legends of Chima weapons are actually built, not just specialized one-piece weapons that aren't designed to do anything besides bash enemies and look pretty.

 

Personally, I feel like the current range of Hero Factory parts that you think "look bland" have similar merit. They aren't as frustratingly specific as many BIONICLE parts. You can use the same pieces for either a purely mechanical character, a biomechanical character, or an armored organic character. Of course, some stylization is inherent to the system when depicting organic characters in the system, but at least they aren't riddled with unnecessary molded pistons.

 

How do BIONICLE parts compare? Well, the Glatorian and Agori were originally said to be 100% organic beings with armor — Greg only revised this to 85% organic and 15% mechanical when it was pointed out to him that he had previously called the set forms the most official forms of the characters, and the sets were covered in obvious mechanical details like pistons and even cylindrical hinges for their jaws and fingers. Even with that revision, there is hardly a single organic-looking characteristic on most Glatorian and Agori designs — what isn't covered with plate armor is plainly mechanical-looking.

 

If you feel like BIONICLE's aesthetic with all its mechanical details was integral and specific to the BIONICLE theme, you are acknowledging the very problem with that aesthetic — it was too specific for its own good, and its versatility suffered as a result. There's a reason we never saw constraction sets from Galidor, Knights' Kingdom II, and Ben 10 Alien Force sharing parts with BIONICLE the to the same extent that constraction sets from Ben 10 Alien Force, Super Heroes, and Legends of Chima have all shared parts with Hero Factory and with each other. The LEGO Group designed this building system with versatility in mind, on both a functional and an aesthetic level.

 

No. They think that kids are to stupid for complicated Technic styles. They've really dumbed it down huh?

Not at all (this set is every bit as technically complex as any BIONICLE canister set ever was, albeit using Technic for actual functions and not filler), but you're welcome to keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.
I feel that Bionicle did it way better. I am not a fan of the whole snap on design.
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I think when it comes to making Ultrabuild look more like Bionicle, a better way to do would be having more detailed and gappy armor pieces. Most of the current pieces are very smooth, whereas almost every Bionicle piece had tons of detail. I also think some more symmetry would help as well. Past the Nuva, most sets were symmetrical. From my experience with HF (2010-2012) there's a lot of seemingly arbitrary asymmetry.

I hope we get more detailed feet,leg,arm,and chest pieces because most of hero factorys are fairly bland. Not to mention we need new weapon pieces because hero factory reuses alot of theirs.

 

Reusing weapons is a good thing, not a bad thing. Do you want to know what the opposite of reusing things is? Wasting them. Releasing a new weapon that you will only ever use once (like Toa Lhikan's Lava Greatswords, Toa Mahri Hahli's giant ugly claw, Toa Mata Lewa's axe, or various Piraka weapons) is purely wasteful and is something BIONICLE should have stopped doing early on.

 

Furthermore, a lot of BIONICLE weapons did get reused frequently over the years. Just look at Toa Mata Gali's hooks, Lewa Nuva's air katana, or Takanuva's staff blade. Do you know what it means when a weapon does not get reused? It means it was not designed well enough to have lasting usefulness in the first place. A lot of today's Hero Factory and Legends of Chima weapons are designed for versatility. The same pieces are used to make CHI Laval's sword, CHI Fluminox's bow, CHI Cragger's axe, and whatever you call that weapon CHI Panthar has. That automatically makes them more useful than Lewa's classic axe, which was such a specialized design it could barely be used for anything besides an axe.

 

As a bonus, designing weapon pieces for versatility means a lot more Hero Factory and Legends of Chima weapons are actually built, not just specialized one-piece weapons that aren't designed to do anything besides bash enemies and look pretty.

 

Personally, I feel like the current range of Hero Factory parts that you think "look bland" have similar merit. They aren't as frustratingly specific as many BIONICLE parts. You can use the same pieces for either a purely mechanical character, a biomechanical character, or an armored organic character. Of course, some stylization is inherent to the system when depicting organic characters in the system, but at least they aren't riddled with unnecessary molded pistons.

 

How do BIONICLE parts compare? Well, the Glatorian and Agori were originally said to be 100% organic beings with armor — Greg only revised this to 85% organic and 15% mechanical when it was pointed out to him that he had previously called the set forms the most official forms of the characters, and the sets were covered in obvious mechanical details like pistons and even cylindrical hinges for their jaws and fingers. Even with that revision, there is hardly a single organic-looking characteristic on most Glatorian and Agori designs — what isn't covered with plate armor is plainly mechanical-looking.

 

If you feel like BIONICLE's aesthetic with all its mechanical details was integral and specific to the BIONICLE theme, you are acknowledging the very problem with that aesthetic — it was too specific for its own good, and its versatility suffered as a result. There's a reason we never saw constraction sets from Galidor, Knights' Kingdom II, and Ben 10 Alien Force sharing parts with BIONICLE the to the same extent that constraction sets from Ben 10 Alien Force, Super Heroes, and Legends of Chima have all shared parts with Hero Factory and with each other. The LEGO Group designed this building system with versatility in mind, on both a functional and an aesthetic level.

 

No. They think that kids are to stupid for complicated Technic styles. They've really dumbed it down huh?

Not at all (this set is every bit as technically complex as any BIONICLE canister set ever was, albeit using Technic for actual functions and not filler), but you're welcome to keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.

 

It does seem that these new invasion from below sets seem to use more Technic pieces the previous sets.

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I feel that Bionicle did it way better. I am not a fan of the whole snap on design.

That's fine. There's nothing wrong with preferring one style over another. But when you treat the new way as "dumbed down" or a way to appeal to "stupid kids", you're insulting people who feel differently than you, as well as ignoring quite a few sets that show the LEGO Group's designers don't feel that way at all.

 

It does seem that these new invasion from below sets seem to use more Technic pieces the previous sets.

Even some earlier sets made impressive use of Technic! Dragon Bolt and Bruizer last year both used Technic extensively for their action features. Bruizer's action feature is not too popular because it came at the expense of articulation in his right arm, but I quite liked it. You could give it more articulation without losing the function entirely, but then you'd have to reset the arm's position every time you bashed something with it.
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I feel that Bionicle did it way better. I am not a fan of the whole snap on design.

That's fine. There's nothing wrong with preferring one style over another. But when you treat the new way as "dumbed down" or a way to appeal to "stupid kids", you're insulting people who feel differently than you, as well as ignoring quite a few sets that show the LEGO Group's designers don't feel that way at all.

 

It does seem that these new invasion from below sets seem to use more Technic pieces the previous sets.

Even some earlier sets made impressive use of Technic! Dragon Bolt and Bruizer last year both used Technic extensively for their action features. Bruizer's action feature is not too popular because it came at the expense of articulation in his right arm, but I quite liked it. You could give it more articulation without losing the function entirely, but then you'd have to reset the arm's position every time you bashed something with it.

 

Bruizers arm ended up looking ugly and unfinished not to mention its stuck in one pose. I wouldn't even say it's gimmick is exicting.

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I'd hardly list dragon bolt as an impressive use, as it came at the cost of coherent wing formation. Those wings were a mess.

I thought they were gorgeous, even though they weren't positioned securely. Honestly I can't think of a single constraction set with wings that were any better—the Chima sets' wings are only really passable, and Nivawk's wings didn't even flap in a realistic manner. The Gukko's wings were okay in a stylized sense, but were completely unlike any real-world wings and would have basically no capacity for lift. And while you could definitely do better with a MOC, judging set builds (which need to adhere to many rules and restrictions involving budget, complexity, and stability), against MOCs (which don't have to take such considerations) is almost always an uneven comparison.

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I'd hardly list dragon bolt as an impressive use, as it came at the cost of coherent wing formation. Those wings were a mess.

I dunno, I was fond of them. Maybe not realistic, but I felt they looked nice, and it was totally worth it for the function. Easily the single most fun constraction set to "swoosh", and that includes some similar attempts in BIONICLE like the Gukko. I had a grand time swooshing it around the convention center at Brickfair Virginia 2013.

 

Actually, I hadn't really thought much about how similar Dragon Bolt and the Gukko are, but it's a pretty good comparison. Dragon Bolt has close to the same piece count that the Gukko would have if you subtracted Jaller (147 pieces for the Gukko versus 149 pieces for Dragon Bolt, and one of those pieces was a Hero Core that didn't get used in the build). When you factor for ten years of inflation, the cost of Jaller & Gukko ($20) minus the cost of an individual Matoran ($4) is almost exactly the same as Dragon Bolt's $20 cost. Bit of a tangent, but I always love making comparisons like this. Math is fun!

 

Bruizers arm ended up looking ugly and unfinished not to mention its stuck in one pose. I wouldn't even say it's gimmick is exicting.

Personally, I liked it. But I understand your opinion, and you're definitely not alone in that opinion. I was just listing examples of earlier sets I liked that had used Technic in complex ways. Whether or not you think Bruizer's swinging-arm function was effective, I think that build-wise it was considerably more complex than a few identical gears crammed into a specialized gearbox like the Toa Mata or Toa Metru offered. Hero Factory sets may be easy to build in many cases, but building small and medium BIONICLE sets wasn't very technically demanding either.
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