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Considering the nature of this question, and the discussion that could come from it, I want to warn any moderators that although I don't want this discussion to become flame-fodder, it could go that way. So if things do head that direction, I apologize for playing any part in starting it. 

 

However, I could be worried over nothing since we've had polite debate over heavy topics before, and my topic may not even be heavy at all, so I'll just end up looking silly for saying anything.  :P

 

My basic question is people's thoughts on morality of the Toa code in its allowance for some "worse-than-death" punishments, as well as how its flexibility works in allowing Toa to kill some things and not others. 

 

What I mean by "worse-than-death" is mainly aimed at the fact that Toa are able to create a Toa Seal that effectively seals away a living being until the seal is broken by the same six elemental powers that formed it (I may be wrong in my knowledge of how Toa Seals work, but I think that it's accurate that the breaking of a Toa seal simply involves the crossing of all six elemental powers that were involved in the making of the seal). Although this does keep Toa free of the consequences of directly killing an individual, I've began to wonder if this form of alternate punishment is "morally higher" than simply killing the person being imprisoned in the first place? 

 

In a Toa Seal, a being is left entirely or mostly immobilized, yet still conscious and capable of some metal functions (proven by Makuta's summoning of the Visorak to Metru-Nui while sealed, and the direct communication between the Bahrag and the Bohrok-Kal during their attempt to free the queens). Could a Toa Seal then be compared to a punishment worse than even solitary confinement in our world (something that has been documented to cause harm to prisoners kept under such conditions for long periods of time)? Although you do leave your enemy alive, what life do you leave them with?

 

I'm not saying that since a Toa Seal would leave a being in a worse place than death that a Toa ought to kill them. I'm more-so saying that, if a Toa Seal is worse than death, why is it allowed under Toa Code rules? Shoudln't they find some other way of dealing with an enemy similar to how Toa have to avoid directly killing someone? Even if the avoidance of killing in the Toa Code is to avoid a Dark Mirror situation, the fact that killing is taboo but forcing a being to live under eternal solitude is within the Toa Code seems...odd?  :???:

 

However, it could be argued that the Red Star makes Toa Seals an effective way of removing an enemy from activity without the threat of their revival on the Red Star. Obviously, with the existence of the Red Star's functions, a being who is killed is not guaranteed to stay dead for very long. But since we do know of ways to permanently kill a being from the MU (the total destruction of the being's body) the ability to permanently remove an enemy from the Matoran Universe was at least an available option; though it would have been difficult in certain cases I suppose. Would this form of totally removing an enemy be more "humane" than leaving a being functionally dead-like yet forced to remain conscious and alive?

 

Also, leaving an enemy sealed away yet still able to make some interaction with the outside world leads to other problems that could be avoided by simply permanently killing someone. Take Makuta as the prime example: he summoned to Visorak hoard while still inside his Toa Seal (I think; I may be wrong). And while the Visorak may have come to Metru-Nui even without Makuta's influence, it seems dangerous that even in a Toa Seal, some beings could still be a viable danger? Then again, considering Makuta's level of power may influence the fact that he was such a threat even in a seal. A more average powered being may not pose any kind of threat inside a Toa Seal... 

 

My question on the flexibility of the Toa Code is mostly aimed at the interactions between the Toa Mata and at least two threats that they faced. Was it (and if it was:why?) within the boundaries of the Toa Code for the Mata to destroy the Avohkah, or for Tahu to wipe out the Rahkshi on Bara-Magna? In both cases, I'd say that the creatures who were killed were not quite on the level of total sapience, so I'd assume then that the Toa Code is defined more by not killing SAPIENT life rather than SENTIENT life (which would make sense). If a Toa couldn't kill ANYTHING, even plants and animals would be off-limits, limiting their ability to eat. Although food in Bionicle is already a bit consing at times anyway.I just wanted to be sure that this assumption about killing sapient beings vs living things was correct. =] 

 

The Bionicle universe is entirely separate from our own, so obviously it runs by different rules than our own, and those rules naturally affect the way morality would work in that world in comparison to our own. Regardless of whether I agree with the morality of killing a human-being vs. keeping them alive in our world, it seems that in the MU, it may be "morally-higher" to permanently remove an enemy from the universe instead of allowing them to live, but in a pseudo-living torture. So...what is the explanation for the Toa Code allowing for the creation of Toa Seals, but not for killing of your enemies? What are your explanations as fans? 

 

Sorry if my question is silly or a waste of your time, and for grammar and spelling mistakes.

 

TL;DR- Toa Seals seem more harsh than death, so why doe the Toa Code allow for them?

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TL;DR- Toa Seals seem more harsh than death, so why doe the Toa Code allow for them?

As I'm short on time, I only read the open and this (I'm not sure why this could possibly become flamey, but okay, I'll keep an eye on it... later... if it does happen, remember to use the report button :)). This is easy enough to answer -- if you need information from them in the future, or destiny has a purpose for them, death be bad.

 

Example, the Bahrag. Killing them would have been very bad, in hindsight.

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TL;DR- Toa Seals seem more harsh than death, so why doe the Toa Code allow for them?

As I'm short on time, I only read the open and this (I'm not sure why this could possibly become flamey, but okay, I'll keep an eye on it... later... if it does happen, remember to use the report button :)). This is easy enough to answer -- if you need information from them in the future, or destiny has a purpose for them, death be bad.

 

Example, the Bahrag. Killing them would have been very bad, in hindsight.

Agreed, but is it right to put someone into forced solitary isolation for a prolonged period of time in order to meet these needs? You could inprison someone (and give them a better quality of life) and still be able to gain information or allow someone to meet their destiny later.

 

Isn't there a question of a person's quality of life in all this?

 

Looking at how even the forms of solitary isolation in our world can have negative effects on a person, I would think it would be more humane to imprison a being some way outside of creating a Toa Seal?

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Oh wow.

 

I never thought of it that way.

 

Err.

 

I don't know what to think now.

Yeah, I never really thought about it until an argument came up about humanize inprisonment in a Legends of Korra discussion (oddly enough).

 

A Toa Seal always just seemed like a cool thing to me. Now I'm not sure how I feel about it being used...

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Maybe the Toa should just knock their targets out before sealing them, so it'd be more like conventional stasis? But, also it seems to be reserved for huge threats like the Bahrag or Makuta. For example, the Inika did not seal the Piraka after defeating them, because they, unlike Makuta or the Bahrag, actually could be defeated by more conventional means. A Toa Seal is really just a last-resort for nigh immortal beings that Toa probably couldn't even kill if they tried. (And Makuta deserved it)

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For example, the Inika did not seal the Piraka after defeating them, because they, unlike Makuta or the Bahrag, actually could be defeated by more conventional means.

The Inika never defeated the Piraka. They came close in the assault on their stronghold, but they were defeated by the super-powered Thok and Hakann (and it should be noted, given that four of the Piraka were planning to steal Brutaka's power, that only Vezok and Zaktan were fully invested in the fighting.)

 

But that aside, I agree, both times we seals were used were as last resorts. Anything other than the imprisonment of the enemy came as an unintended side-effect. The Metru were not trying to torture Makuta, merely stop him from killing them. Similarly, the Nuva were merely attempting to save their island from an overwhelming horde.

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For example, the Inika did not seal the Piraka after defeating them, because they, unlike Makuta or the Bahrag, actually could be defeated by more conventional means.

 

The Inika never defeated the Piraka. They came close in the assault on their stronghold, but they were defeated by the super-powered Thok and Hakann (and it should be noted, given that four of the Piraka were planning to steal Brutaka's power, that only Vezok and Zaktan were fully invested in the fighting.)

 

But that aside, I agree, both times we seals were used were as last resorts. Anything other than the imprisonment of the enemy came as an unintended side-effect. The Metru were not trying to torture Makuta, merely stop him from killing them. Similarly, the Nuva were merely attempting to save their island from an overwhelming horde.

Well okay but they had the Piraka at their mercy after Vezon defeated the Piraka and they defeated Vezon. So they could have imprisoned them.

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But that aside, I agree, both times we seals were used were as last resorts. Anything other than the imprisonment of the enemy came as an unintended side-effect. The Metru were not trying to torture Makuta, merely stop him from killing them. Similarly, the Nuva were merely attempting to save their island from an overwhelming horde.

Agreed, these were extreme situations. However, even if these were extreme curcinstances, there was no mention of whether it seemed right for the Toa to have created a Toa Seal.

 

I feel like...maybe there should have been some mention of how using a Toa Seal should only be a last effort attack. Or the fact that it's a pretty bad fate and punishment.

 

Obviously that's not going to happen, and I doubt it would have since Bionicle is still a kids toy :P, but what explanation are we as fans supposed to have for Toa Seals being allowed?

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Okay, longer reply, and as I often say, I'm replying as I read, so bear that in mind.

the Toa code in its allowance for some "worse-than-death" punishments

I'm not aware that the Toa Code allows for something to be intentionally pursued with the goal of a punishment that would be worse than death. That is somewhat subjective -- I think the Klingons in Star Trek had something like that, though I'm foggy on the details. A villain might see a punishment that way, but there's a huge difference between that and a hero intending such a thing. All the Toa Code really says as far as we know is "Toa don't kill."
 
Hypothetically, if there was any reason at all why death would be better in that situation, the Order might get involved (assuming they know of it). But the Toa's reasons for doing this are based more on how Toa-as-killers would affect the people at large, not necessarily the villain.
 
There's also the factor that a villain isn't necessarily trustworthy in any claims that they're suffering something worse than death. Plus, it seems unlikely this would really come up a lot. Most beings have an instinct for self-preservation that is very powerful. Just about any villain would likely swear revenge for the thwarting of their plots, if they ever do escape, but I doubt a lot would beg to be killed.
 
Depending on the "punishment", though. It's certainly possible in situations with limited options gray areas could come up. That's the stuff of stories, after all.
 

as well as how its flexibility works in allowing Toa to kill some things and not others.

It's easier to talk about specific examples, so I'll just pass on this one until we get to them. :)
 

What I mean by "worse-than-death" is mainly aimed at the fact that Toa are able to create a Toa Seal

Protocages certainly don't strike me as even close to worse than death. They seem to basically put you into some kind of induced coma or stasis, and the prisoner seems to be pretty peaceful, not at all in pain or anything. At least in the portrayals we were shown (admittedly the Bahrag one has some possibly semi-canon elements, in the Kal Saga, but that one especially seemed to emphasize that unless something was happening around them, they were basically asleep).
 

(I may be wrong in my knowledge of how Toa Seals work, but I think that it's accurate that the breaking of a Toa seal simply involves the crossing of all six elemental powers that were involved in the making of the seal)

Yep:
 
http://biosector01.com/wiki/index.php/Toa_Seal
 

Although this does keep Toa free of the consequences of directly killing an individual, I've began to wonder if this form of alternate punishment is "morally higher" than simply killing the person being imprisoned in the first place?

It's certainly good to wonder, and I'm sure there are possible scenarios where it wouldn't be, but in general, I'd have to say yes. But keep in mind the Code didn't necessarily develop out of "moral concerns." There's evidence it may have been around by the time of the giant's launch, since the Toa Mata didn't seem to need to be taught it (and they retained basic training skills and such). This would put it during a time when the Great Beings were still present, and likely before whatever Velika did to break them out of their original programming. So, the concerns may simply have been balancing practicalities, rather than morals per se. The idea of morality attached to it might be what developed later once they were fully sapient.
 

In a Toa Seal, a being is left entirely or mostly immobilized, yet still conscious and capable of some metal functions (proven by Makuta's summoning of the Visorak to Metru-Nui while sealed

Yet, they do not starve to death, so there's clearly some form of stasis or something like it, or else protocages would be a death sentence (and a cruel one). That flash animation with the Bahrag does support some ability for consciousness, though there it seemed optional. And a Makuta's experience in it isn't really a reliable guide at all, since they (at that point in history anyways) worked so differently from normal beings, not needing to eat, sleep, etc.
 

Although you do leave your enemy alive, what life do you leave them with?

Unless the Toa who did it were corrupt, the villain presumably brought it upon themselves, keep in mind. Again, cases like the Bahrag show that evil isn't always to blame for needing protocaged (not the evil of the prisoners, anyways), but that's, again, why an execution would be worse.
 
Yeah, it's bad for the people trapped, but that's compared to being free. Compared to death? That's not that simple.

 

Would this form of totally removing an enemy be more "humane" than leaving a being functionally dead-like yet forced to remain conscious and alive?

Methinks there's a Gandalf quote about this somewhere. :P

 

Take Makuta as the prime example: he summoned to Visorak hoard while still inside his Toa Seal (I think; I may be wrong). And while the Visorak may have come to Metru-Nui even without Makuta's influence, it seems dangerous that even in a Toa Seal, some beings could still be a viable danger? Then again, considering Makuta's level of power may influence the fact that he was such a threat even in a seal. A more average powered being may not pose any kind of threat inside a Toa Seal...

Honestly, I'm not sure the Toa Metru had any other options in that situation. Maybe Vakama could try to burn up his antidermis, but if Makuta actually felt himself being killed, maybe he would have mustered up enough mental energy to teleport out or fly out or something (or blast them all to death). Because he knew the protocage wouldn't be fatal (and after all there was a whole Brotherhood out there that would know he went missing, even if he didn't know if his energy-mind state would enable telepathy), he wasn't motivated to put everything he had into preventing that. Otherwise, it might have gone very differently.

 

A good example, really, of how situational these questions are. You can't necessarily prescribe one cure-all for all situations. And the ability was programmed into the elements by the Great Beings; it was a tool available to them. They didn't have any other tools available that would stop him in that situation, as far as I recall, other than burning his antidermis to death. (And I'm not sure that would be so easy, you know?)

 

Was it (and if it was:why?) within the boundaries of the Toa Code for the Mata to destroy the Avohkah

Well, I found that part strange, and didn't go with that in my retelling for this reason. However, the simple answer actually is yes -- since the Great Beings would be assigning them to that task, it would be an exception due to the authority of the Code and the exception deriving from the same source. Kinda like how a Presidential order may be needed to confirm certain military exceptions to normal rules.

 

And in the larger context, if indeed nothing like my version was available, the consequences would be Mata Nui doesn't launch in time, and possibly crashes due to quakes from the Shattering. And if my theory that he used his power once launched to dampen the shock of the quakes, possibly without that everybody on Spherus Magna dies. (And even if that wouldn't be needed, his launch might become impossible, and then the planet would never be healed, and eventually, apparently, they'd all die anyways.) So killing the Avohkah becomes unfortunate self-defense from the Great Beings' perspective.

 

or for Tahu to wipe out the Rahkshi on Bara-Magna?

He didn't know what it would do, so yeah. Similar to the death of the Morbuzakh. When a Toa is handed a weapon and has good reason to believe it's destiny to use it, their ignorance of what it does makes the Code irrelevant. It doesn't say they must only do things they are absolutely sure won't result in death, as nothing really has that certainty. Rather, they do not have intent to kill.

 

I'm sure, realistically, he would be quite psychologically disturbed by that, but the Code wouldn't really come into it. What's he going to do, demand the Ignika's distant voice tell him what it does or else he'll quit right there? Nuh-uh.

 

In both cases, I'd say that the creatures who were killed were not quite on the level of total sapience, so I'd assume then that the Toa Code is defined more by not killing SAPIENT life rather than SENTIENT life (which would make sense).

I think it's just situational. Lewa intervened to spare an Ash Bear -- sentient, not sapient. The point there was that worse death wasn't going to ensue if Jaller didn't do it. But with the Avohkah, it would, and Greg mentioned (on the old forums, in at least one topic, not sure if it made it into the quote archives as it wasn't a PM, as I remember it) that exceptions were possible when not acting results in more death (thus in a sense, the Toa kills either way, in terms of responsibility). That would apply even to sapient beings, though obviously they'd be way more hesitant about it.

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I think a point to take notice of is that many if not all beings in the Bionicle universe have far greater life spans than we're used to and work in a different way mentally and emotionally. As a result being stuck in stasis while still conscious for the periods of time they are in the story may perceived differently to say, Teridax then say us. While for us we'd imagine that as a terrible fate (perhaps or perhaps not worse than death depending on who you are and your opinion on the matter), but its quite possible for them it doesn't seem as bad - merely some type of boredom even. Being idle for a large amount of time for Teridax for example could just be an annoyance to him, rather than torturous as it would be to us (I'm presuming :P). This difference could easily be explained either by their different mental/emotional states or by virtue of the fact they live longer lives and in doing so may perceive such times of entrapment differently (just two possible ideas explaining why it may not be worse than death :P).

 

That being said, it'd definitely still be a punishment of some sort - but there's nothing saying Toa cannot punish those who need punishing. Perhaps even the no-killing rule isn't so much due to the severity of the action to the victim, but due to its consequences in altering destiny and interfering with the duty and destiny of the Toas a a result (they're there to preserve those things, not mess with them). As a result, they may be allowed in some capacity to do "bad" things a) if its the only option to do what must be done (to satisfy the destiny of events) by them and they are the only ones who can/will do it and b) as the code may actually be more of a "don't do bad things when there is another option/needlessly", with some hard restrictions on certain acts that would usually go against the purpose of their existence. Ultimately I think the point should be that the code is meant to deter them from abusing their power, being evil or altering the course events from their destined path and that tends to include not doing "bad" things. But under circumstances where others do such things, it's quite possible similar (but still far less severe action) is required to rectify the course of events, which is ultimately their purpose I guess.

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Not to mention that the two times we've seen Toa seals created were by an amnesiac team and a new team who had no clue what combining their powers would do and even after the seal was formed, had no way of knowing the beings were still conscious, or even how to break the seal if they actually wanted to. Although this does make me think of another question. Why did the Toa combining their powers in 01 not seal up Teridax?

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Agreed, but is it right to put someone into forced solitary isolation for a prolonged period of time in order to meet these needs? You could inprison someone (and give them a better quality of life) and still be able to gain information or allow someone to meet their destiny later.

I think they generally had larger concerns than the comfort of a "villain", honestly. Again, unfortunate situations would happen (although the Bahrag were supposed to sleep when not needed, so for them it probably wasn't bad), but in general, if the villain does something deserving imprisonment, I doubt the Toa would be losing sleep over their being in "solitary confinement", yanno?

 

Also, there is the Pit to consider. If the Order ever felt it was warranted, they might take somebody from a protocage and transfer them there. But the problem of keeping the organization secret would get in the way most of the time I'd think, and their concerns would more likely be about whether they think that is necessary for keeping the prisoner from getting free rather than worrying about the prisoner's state of mind. If you asked any of them how they felt about that, I would presume they'd tell you the "villain" brought it upon themselves.

 

Looking at how even the forms of solitary isolation in our world can have negative effects on a person, I would think it would be more humane to imprison a being some way outside of creating a Toa Seal?

I'm not sure how relevant the real world psychology of humans necessarily is, actually. They are artificial lifeforms based on aliens. :P One major factor is probably the vast lifespans. Being trapped alone in one room might make a human go a little bit nuts in part because the consciousness of their approaching death "soon" by whatever means makes that time feel more wasted, whereas with SM/MU beings, it might not be that worrying. Of course, certainty that they'll likely be trapped for a much longer time, if not the rest of their lives, might outweigh that still. :shrugs:

 

*reads on and sees Adv. ninja'd him on this point lol*

 

 

A Toa Seal always just seemed like a cool thing to me. Now I'm not sure how I feel about it being used...

Well that's good. :) No weapon should ever be treated lightly, not really even fictional ones.

 

 

Why did the Toa combining their powers in 01 not seal up Teridax?

An old question with an easy answer -- they didn't combine their powers in 2001.

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Why did the Toa combining their powers in 01 not seal up Teridax?

An old question with an easy answer -- they didn't combine their powers in 2001.

 

 

So what did they do?

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If the Toa Metru hadn't imprisoned or killed Makuta, it is very possible he could've still defeated the Metru. Plus, Makuta was a huge threat, one who took over the entire city and overthrew Mata-Nui (who was practically their god). A threat like that is one that has to be stopped, (as Kopaka would say) cold. Killing him, would've just leaked his antidermis and had the entire brotherhood after them (then again they might've already been...). But in general killing isn't an easy thing. Is it right to end someone who has felt, and experienced the beauty and fruit of life? Imprisoning anyone like that is horrible, yes, but killing is ending EVERYTHING that they have ever known (to them, because they will be taken away from it). As well as this, maybe they wanted Makuta to suffer... they wanted him to pay for all the horrible things he has done and would've done.

 

Do I think it is ever really right to imprison someone like that? No, not at all. In the real world, even criminals still deserve humane conditions, but there are times when one has to do what feels like the lesser evil, and to them, especially at the time they choose, imprisonment is a description of one option which makes it sound a lot better than death.

 

In the end, the toa have only done this (as far as I know) in drastic times, when it absolutely had to be done. In order for the matoran to ever live in peace, they had to have Makuta out of the way. If they had not taken any sort of action, it would've spelled doom for them, and there is no imprisoning a being like Makuta (they probably didn't realize or remember that he was still a threat mentally, plus they had just learned how to make a toa seal so they probably didn't know it doesn't block mental communication). Same deal for the Bahrag. Those creatures wanted to destroy all of their homes, and already did with many of them. And they would've kept on doing it if the toa hadn't done something to stop them for good. And as said before, imprisonment (despite its many types, as horrible as they can get) simply sounds a lot better.

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Quick somewhat unrelated question: Can any Toa Team with the same elements used to seal can unseal a seal?

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Why did the Toa combining their powers in 01 not seal up Teridax?

An old question with an easy answer -- they didn't combine their powers in 2001.

 

So what did they do?

Well, if you look at the videos of this defeat and the LoMN defeat, the difference is pretty easy to spot. In 2001, the Toa materialized elements right from their Toa Tools, and shot those elemental substances out (not elemental energies), which then collided with Makuta. But in LoMN, instead the Toa Metru sent out six beams of elemental energy, without turning them into elements yet, combining the beams, and one beam hit Makuta.

 

The Bahrag case was less clear, but it was mentioned in the dialogue I believe that Tahu suggested combining their elements. In the context of LoMN, then, this means they shot out six beams of elemental energy (not elements yet there either), which combined into one energy as they surrounded the Bahrag.

 

 

Quick somewhat unrelated question: Can any Toa Team with the same elements used to seal can unseal a seal?

Apparently so, yes. :)

 

 

Now, I thought of this for my previous posts but forgot to mention it, but to this part:

 

Could a Toa Seal then be compared to a punishment worse than even solitary confinement in our world (something that has been documented to cause harm to prisoners kept under such conditions for long periods of time)? Although you do leave your enemy alive, what life do you leave them with?

 

I'm not saying that since a Toa Seal would leave a being in a worse place than death that a Toa ought to kill them.

Probably a simpler answer than what I said before is that there is a logic error here. What this demonstrates is that solitary confinement is worse than non-solitary confinement, and a protocage may be worse than both, but this does not demonstrate that any of these options are worse than death. :)

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Didn't Toa Onewa technically kill Nidhikki and Krekka in LoMN by throwing them into the Makuta tornado?

No, Onewa defended himself against a foolhardy attack, and Makuta killed them. (Besides, Onewa had no way to know Makuta would murder his own hired minions!)

 

Like I said:

 

It doesn't say they must only do things they are absolutely sure won't result in death, as nothing really has that certainty. Rather, they do not have intent to kill.

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Well I probably can guess that Orde was the first and only male Toa of Psionics, due to his aggressiveness he would of almost had broken the Toa Code. 

 

Well Toa Tuyet the only surviving last member of the Toa Mangai, would be a great example of knowing to break the Toa Code, because she murdered a couple of Matoran. 

 

I think Toa Nidhiki, another Toa from the Toa Mangai also broken the Toa Code, because he betrayed his Toa Team and Brotherhood of Mata Nui. So that would also be breaking the Toa Code.

 

Would the Toa Hagah be known to break the Toa Code? They were hired by Makuta in the first place before they all ended up betraying them. 

 

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