Jump to content

Some Elements too OP?


Recommended Posts

So I was thinking about the elements of the matoran universe, especially the extended family. Some of these elements like Lightning and others seem to fit right in really well, but some of the others, like magnetism, iron, and sort of even gravity feel a little unbalanced, OP, and stronger than the others.

 

Think about it, if you're a toa of Iron or Magnetism, you could simply rip apart your opponent. Toa of Gravity can just crush some one with gravatic power... their opponents would barely get a fighting chance unless there are more than one!

 

Plus toa of Psionics can simply control their opponents mind if he has no mental shielding!

 

What do you think? Are they really too OP for a toa?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Magnetism and Iron being OP was a plot point. The Makuta hunted them to near-extinction for it. And, when you think about, every Toa would be OP if they weren't held back by the code. So many ways with every element and many Kanohi to kill an opponent before they can blink an eye.

Want to solve an exciting murder mystery? Try Murder Mansion II, a new game in Games and Trivia! 8 Spots remaining!

http://www.bzpower.com/board/topic/19274-murder-mansion/?do=findComment&comment=964351

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not entirely sure on that. If that where the case the Kal could have eviscerated the Toa Nuva with little more than a thought. And that wasn't what happened.

 

Besides, pretty much all of the elements are "OP". Which just means really none of them are. (I'm not entirely sure the term "OP" Can be justifiably used here. It's generally for multiplayer games like mobas when a character is too strong and screws up game balance.)

  • Upvote 1

3DS Freind Code: 1693-0634-1082 Name: Joey


I also have Mario Kart 7, Animal Crossing: New Leaf, Pokemon Y and Kid Icarus: Uprising


PM me to add me. 


Steam profile


Click here for the BZP Destiny Group

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Although his powers were temporary, I always felt Kopaka was way overpowered compared to the other Toa in Mask of Light. Gali and Tahu both having trouble with SINGLE Rahkshi? Kopaka single handedly incapacitates THREE of them. All the other Toa having trouble containing berserk Tahu? Kopaka freezes the Toa of FIRE solid with a single, nonchalant tap from his blade. Why even look for the seventh Toa when Kopaka could just waltz into the Mangaia and turn Teridax into an ice cube without breaking a sweat?  :P

  • Upvote 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Although his powers were temporary, I always felt Kopaka was way overpowered compared to the other Toa in Mask of Light. Gali and Tahu both having trouble with SINGLE Rahkshi? Kopaka single handedly incapacitates THREE of them. All the other Toa having trouble containing berserk Tahu? Kopaka freezes the Toa of FIRE solid with a single, nonchalant tap from his blade. Why even look for the seventh Toa when Kopaka could just waltz into the Mangaia and turn Teridax into an ice cube without breaking a sweat?  :P

Well, all Makuta have the natural ability of Ice resistance... of course he lost that when he was Maxilos, which was why Matoro was able to freeze him underwater.

 

And as far as Kopaka being OP, ice is *the* best way to incapacitate someone, (I mean, when you're frozen in a solid block of ice, there's not much you can do) the other can only hinder or harm the rahkshi, and the other Toa had to hold back to keep from killing them. Plus the Rahkshi got out of the ice eventually (thanks to the disintegrator). So all Kopaka did was buy the heroes some time, the Rahkshi weren't defeated until the very end (and that was *only* because they removed the Kraata from the Rahkshi after they were imprisoned in glass and frozen magma) If Kopaka had known about that earlier when he froze the three earlier the battle would've turned out much differently.

 

Animation_Mangaia.png.e38a5644c8a08bfd4c488514025b5017.png

Formerly Iron_Man5

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some of them are (or would be) borderline, but like the "who would win?" topics, the answer here is that it's situational. In some situations, certain elements will be better than others. If you look only at those, you could mistakenly think something overpowered, where if you only looked at other situations your OP list could be quite different.

 

However, the borderline ones I'd say are ones that fit the situation of dealing with beings, more than others. Of course, for Toa, the Code will prevent a lot of what they could technically do.

 

Also, there are special limitations upon some of them that other elements don't have, most likely because the Great Beings saw overpowered-ness as something to avoid (in case of behavioral glitches).

The Destiny of Bionicle (chronological retelling of Bionicle original series, 9 PDFs of 10 chapters each on Google Drive)Part 1 - Warring with Fate | Part 2 - Year of Change | Part 3 - The Exploration Trap | Part 4 - Rise of the Warlords | Part 5 - A Busy Matoran | Part 6 - The Dark Time | Part 7 - Proving Grounds | Part 8 - A Rude Awakening | Part 9 - The Battle of Giants

My Bionicle Fanfiction  (Google Drive folder, eventually planned to have PDFs of all of it)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Id say that to do something like tearing your opponent apart with Iron or Magnetism would take tremendous effort on your part as a being wielding that element. Every element is OP because you can use every element inside your opponent's body to effectively stop their life processes. Fire, ice, stone, and earth, from the classic six elements, are very self explanatory, as using those inside someones body means something will get broken or jammed up or stopped or burned. Water can be used for internalized drowning, but not enough is known about MU biology to determine if their very cells and muscular systems can get over saturated for disastrous results. Air pockets can cause serious trouble on a microscopic level, and of course there's suffocation as some Toa have done in-story plenty of times, and a burst of air inside a being will definitely cause some problems if it's strong enough. 

What matters for Elemental Powers is the user's level of control and precision, and whether they are capable of doing those things in the heat of battle and with enough biological know-how to ensure they even do something important. Like Bones said, the Toa Code sees that almost nothing lethal or torturous is ever done by a Toa anyways. They are technically capable of it, however, which is why so many Toa of Iron and Magnetism were taken out earlier in history for the peace of mind of the baddies.

  • Upvote 3

pomegranate-banner-sm.png .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think Psionics is the most overpowered. Not only do they have mind reading and mind control, but telekinesis? Is that really necessary? What does telekinesis have to do with the mind? Not to mention Psionics isn't even a natural phenomenon or universal force like the other elements.

( The bunny slippers hiss and slither into the shadows. ) -Takuaka: Toa of Time

What if the Toa you know best were not destined to be? Interchange: The epic begins

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think Psionics is the most overpowered. Not only do they have mind reading and mind control, but telekinesis? Is that really necessary? What does telekinesis have to do with the mind? Not to mention Psionics isn't even a natural phenomenon or universal force like the other elements.

The "tele" part in "telekinesis" refers to control by the mind over a distance. Just like "telepathy". It wouldn't be necessary, but I'd say without it they'd actually be under powered, since all you'd need to easily defeat them would be to have mental shielding. They'd be pretty helpless. However, I would agree if it isn't like the Matatu (I theorize it is, but unsure) -- where control of more requires more focus.

 

So, it may be overpowered, but not simply due to having telekinesis in the range of powers. Also, I suspect most novice or even moderately experienced users of the direct telepathic powers wouldn't just have absolute control, not even over beings who haven't learned real mental shielding (plus there is a more severe elemental energy restriction on them that would be relevant here, in that they cannot absorb EE even for a temporary recharging, so once they're out, they must wait for the natural recharging, whereas other Toa can hold absorbed EE for a little while and spend it quickly to do other things). So, when I say it may be overpowered, emphasis belongs on the "may" -- meaning I actually doubt it is, because limitations on each option of their power range could make it not OP.

 

As for "natural force", it all depends on the universe and how you define it. Annona seems to be a native to SM and had it, and minds themselves are of course natural. If anything, it may be the only natural power on Spherus Magna; the others seem to have come about due to Great Being inventions (like the Element Lords).

 

Ultimately an element is simply control over something, and minds exist naturally in the same sort of way plants do, and that's an element of both SM and MU. (Of course, you can make major OP arguments for Plants too, lol -- that may be the prime candidate for actually being way OP as currently defined, in fact... but nobody makes this "unnatural" argument with plants, even though controlling mind attributes and controlling plants as an elemental power are equally as unnatural in our world.) It's natural -- it's just not material or unalive.

  • Upvote 2

The Destiny of Bionicle (chronological retelling of Bionicle original series, 9 PDFs of 10 chapters each on Google Drive)Part 1 - Warring with Fate | Part 2 - Year of Change | Part 3 - The Exploration Trap | Part 4 - Rise of the Warlords | Part 5 - A Busy Matoran | Part 6 - The Dark Time | Part 7 - Proving Grounds | Part 8 - A Rude Awakening | Part 9 - The Battle of Giants

My Bionicle Fanfiction  (Google Drive folder, eventually planned to have PDFs of all of it)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Although his powers were temporary, I always felt Kopaka was way overpowered compared to the other Toa in Mask of Light. Gali and Tahu both having trouble with SINGLE Rahkshi? Kopaka single handedly incapacitates THREE of them. All the other Toa having trouble containing berserk Tahu? Kopaka freezes the Toa of FIRE solid with a single, nonchalant tap from his blade. Why even look for the seventh Toa when Kopaka could just waltz into the Mangaia and turn Teridax into an ice cube without breaking a sweat?  :P

Well, all Makuta have the natural ability of Ice resistance... of course he lost that when he was Maxilos, which was why Matoro was able to freeze him underwater.

 

And as far as Kopaka being OP, ice is *the* best way to incapacitate someone, (I mean, when you're frozen in a solid block of ice, there's not much you can do) the other can only hinder or harm the rahkshi, and the other Toa had to hold back to keep from killing them. Plus the Rahkshi got out of the ice eventually (thanks to the disintegrator). So all Kopaka did was buy the heroes some time, the Rahkshi weren't defeated until the very end (and that was *only* because they removed the Kraata from the Rahkshi after they were imprisoned in glass and frozen magma) If Kopaka had known about that earlier when he froze the three earlier the battle would've turned out much differently.

 

Yeah, I know. That last part was just a joke. Hehe. 

 

I just found it strange that Tahu didn't have some kind of mental or internal heat mechanism to thaw himself instantly. You'd that that would be a must for a fire Toa. As I said, his powers are temporary and non-lethal - so he didn't technically defeat the Rahkshi, but I think those aspects are what makes ice such a strong element in the hands of a Toa. In my eyes, they can seemingly go all-out with their powers without breaking the code.

Edited by IXRollOutIX
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just found it strange that Tahu didn't have some kind of mental or internal heat mechanism to thaw himself instantly.

Mental -- no, too late. Can't think with frozen brain. :P

 

Internal (I guess you mean a built-in power that would auto-activate) -- I don't see why we would expect such a thing.

 

Yeah, ice is awesome, and really cool. But that freezing option against a Toa of Fire only works if you ambush them, keep in mind (esp. Tahu, or Lhikan, having masks of Sheilding... actually, the Calix would help too). The other Toa helped distract Tahu so that would work, too, as I recall (though an ambush without help is certainly possible and fits Kopaka's style).

  • Upvote 1

The Destiny of Bionicle (chronological retelling of Bionicle original series, 9 PDFs of 10 chapters each on Google Drive)Part 1 - Warring with Fate | Part 2 - Year of Change | Part 3 - The Exploration Trap | Part 4 - Rise of the Warlords | Part 5 - A Busy Matoran | Part 6 - The Dark Time | Part 7 - Proving Grounds | Part 8 - A Rude Awakening | Part 9 - The Battle of Giants

My Bionicle Fanfiction  (Google Drive folder, eventually planned to have PDFs of all of it)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I just found it strange that Tahu didn't have some kind of mental or internal heat mechanism to thaw himself instantly.

Mental -- no, too late. Can't think with frozen brain. :P

 

Internal (I guess you mean a built-in power that would auto-activate) -- I don't see why we would expect such a thing.

 

Yeah, ice is awesome, and really cool. But that freezing option against a Toa of Fire only works if you ambush them, keep in mind (esp. Tahu, or Lhikan, having masks of Sheilding... actually, the Calix would help too). The other Toa helped distract Tahu so that would work, too, as I recall (though an ambush without help is certainly possible and fits Kopaka's style).

 

Actually it is possible for a Toa of fire to "thaw" himself after being frozen. Vakama did it in one of the comics when Krekka froze him with a Kanoka disk, and Matau had to rescue him before he hit the ground and shattered. A little bit later, he breaks free stating that he finally was able to generate enough heat on his body to break loose. I'm assuming though that Kopaka's ice would be stronger than a Kanoka's (maybe the power level was low or something)

 

Animation_Mangaia.png.e38a5644c8a08bfd4c488514025b5017.png

Formerly Iron_Man5

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Eh, all the elements are OP depending on how they're used. Tuyet was right; the Toa would be practically unstoppable if they didn't hold back when they fought their enemies.

  • Upvote 2

toakopaka.png
Credit goes to Linus Van Pelt (Formerly known as Cherixon) and Spectral Avohkii Enterprises

My Memoirs of the Dead entry, Reflectons:

http://www.bzpower.com/board/index.php?showtopic=7351

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 No elemental power is too OP in my opinion, since they are all determined by power-levels and skill. A more skilled Toa of Fire would win against a Toa of Ice. A Toa Nuva would elementally overpower any standard Toa. An element lord is on an even higher level than that of a Toa Nuva's.  
 

 As far as Kopaka in MOL went, he had the element of surprise against the Rahkshi and Tahu. Moreover, against Tahu it was a team effort and Tahu wasn't in the right state of mind. In a fair and even match I imagine Tahu to be the more aggressive and talented combatant whilst Kopaka to be the more strategic type, evening out through the course of combat. 

 

 There's also the fact that elemental powers are not everything. Makuta were said to be only a Toa level in terms of elemental powers, but their 42 Kraata powers allowed them to become massively powerful. I mean, we can stuff like chain lightning and fragmentation. It is for this reason that Tahu is currently the strongest Toa in existence, stronger than even Tuyet with the Nui stone if my memory serves me correctly. You can think of him as basically a Makuta of Fire. 

Edited by Prime Axiom
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually it is possible for a Toa of fire to "thaw" himself after being frozen. Vakama did it in one of the comics when Krekka froze him with a Kanoka disk, and Matau had to rescue him before he hit the ground and shattered. A little bit later, he breaks free stating that he finally was able to generate enough heat on his body to break loose.

I don't really recall the specifics, but "finally" doesn't seem to contradict being unable to think with frozen brain -- wouldn't that just imply that at that point, Vakama's brain had thawed enough? I don't think anybody was disputing that frozen people thaw out -- hence "temporary". But choosing to make heat energy should be impossible if you can't choose anything at all just after being frozen. That's what I meant. :)

 

(Unless you had sensed the ambush just in time, perhaps, and started the process just before you were frozen.)

  • Upvote 1

The Destiny of Bionicle (chronological retelling of Bionicle original series, 9 PDFs of 10 chapters each on Google Drive)Part 1 - Warring with Fate | Part 2 - Year of Change | Part 3 - The Exploration Trap | Part 4 - Rise of the Warlords | Part 5 - A Busy Matoran | Part 6 - The Dark Time | Part 7 - Proving Grounds | Part 8 - A Rude Awakening | Part 9 - The Battle of Giants

My Bionicle Fanfiction  (Google Drive folder, eventually planned to have PDFs of all of it)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jungle's possibly overpowered nature comes more from the lack of much limitations on the effects they can indirectly cause (at least the MU "the Green" version) by making plants that can make toxins and such. Also, in some cases killing a plant can make it more dangerous; get hit by a soft green sapling, or get hit by a hard wood branch. :P

  • Upvote 1

The Destiny of Bionicle (chronological retelling of Bionicle original series, 9 PDFs of 10 chapters each on Google Drive)Part 1 - Warring with Fate | Part 2 - Year of Change | Part 3 - The Exploration Trap | Part 4 - Rise of the Warlords | Part 5 - A Busy Matoran | Part 6 - The Dark Time | Part 7 - Proving Grounds | Part 8 - A Rude Awakening | Part 9 - The Battle of Giants

My Bionicle Fanfiction  (Google Drive folder, eventually planned to have PDFs of all of it)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jungle's possibly overpowered nature comes more from the lack of much limitations on the effects they can indirectly cause (at least the MU "the Green" version) by making plants that can make toxins and such. Also, in some cases killing a plant can make it more dangerous; get hit by a soft green sapling, or get hit by a hard wood branch. :P

On that note, can the Jungle element create something like the Morbuzakh or Karzahni?

toakopaka.png
Credit goes to Linus Van Pelt (Formerly known as Cherixon) and Spectral Avohkii Enterprises

My Memoirs of the Dead entry, Reflectons:

http://www.bzpower.com/board/index.php?showtopic=7351

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It can create life. That's quite something, even if its an insignifcant thing's life, like a plant's.

 

 

Jungle's possibly overpowered nature comes more from the lack of much limitations on the effects they can indirectly cause (at least the MU "the Green" version) by making plants that can make toxins and such. Also, in some cases killing a plant can make it more dangerous; get hit by a soft green sapling, or get hit by a hard wood branch. :P


On that note, can the Jungle element create something like the Morbuzakh or Karzahni?

 

 

Good question. I believe it can, but it will not be intelligent like the Morbuzack or Kazahni were.  ^_^

 

EDIT: Now that you mentioned, They should have called a Jungle Toa to deal with the Morbuzakh. He would have solved it pretty... quickly, lol :P

Edited by HoloTheWise
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd say the elements/powers which are more inherently OP than others tend to be restricted by the user, the extent to which the element can be manipulated or the consequences of using that power. For example a power over all matter would be very very OP, however if such a power were introduced in the story, going by past instances, it'd be restricted by say the user only being able to move 10g at a time or perhaps by losing a limb every time they use the power. :P So basically anything overtly OP probably won't ever appear in the story due to some reasoning like that - that being said you could make arguments based on existing demonstration of powers, but there's so many powerful powers that I don't think even those certain instances are issues.

Edited by Adventurer
photo-50441.gif

 

Credit to Pohuaki for the awesome banner! ^_^

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Water can be considered OP against non-protodermis lifeforms (assuming they're carbon-based, like we are, and have a high water content). A Water Toa following the Code could fling you around like a ragdoll- a Toa who didn't could shrivel you down to a pile of dust.

3DS Friend Code: 0018-0767-4231

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The thing is, all the powers are extremely powerful with the right usage, but three things impede their effectiveness.

 

1)Toa Code

 

2)Even with Gravity manipulation, you would need a lot of concentration and expend a lot of Elemental Energy to do the seriously dangerous moves

 

3)(Most importantly)Since everyone is capable of unleashing the forces of nature to their whims, no one is OP

 

In other words:

If everyone is super-powered, no one really is.

 

Just my theory.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm probably restating the obvious, but any element can be mega-OP. A Ta-Toa, with teh right skills and know-how, could totally oblitorate Makuta. Fe-Toa can create razor-shar Protosteel contructs in seconds. Ga-Toa can dehydrate things to dust. A Kaita fusion of a Ta-, Ko-, and maybe Su-Toa would be able to heat things to gigantic amounts, limited only by willpower via power combinations.

 Kopaka, the coolest(Pun intended) Ko-Toa ever:

 Comic_Blizzard_Blade_In_Use.png      

"If the fight had turned, Exann might be the one on the floor with Antidermis spurting out of him. This is how battle is. This is how life is." -Mar'jik, Corpus Rahkshi                                       

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, some of these elements are way OP and should never have been canonized. On the other hand, I'd say that Plasma is actually underpowered -- whereas you can do a lot with elemental control over fire or water, all you can really do with plasma is incinerate things (and possibly make high-tech television screens).

 

But in either case, these are the elements that we have to live with, if we're going to treat the canon as some sort of divine and infallible scripture.  -_-

  • Upvote 1
"You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant."
-- Harlan Ellison

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don't even really see why greg made some of these OP elements anyways when they never appeared in any sets.

Fans begging for their ideas to become canon, although at first a couple elements just came up 'cause Greg wanted more variety, I think; I honestly can't remember for sure, 'cause I'm thinking of Krakua, Toa of Sonics, and Jovan, Toa of Gravity/Magnetism/Iron?? I can't even remember. The first was a fan creation, and I think the other was too or it might've been a combiner, but what I'm trying to figure out is whether their elements were provided by Greg, or the fans. 

pomegranate-banner-sm.png .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Magnetism, Iron and Gravity are too over powered in my opinion as well. That's why the brotherhood of Makuta pretty much wiped out all Toa of the first too, as they posed to much of a risk to their plan. 


“We all change. When you think about it, we're all different people all through our lives. And that's okay. That's good. You gotta keep moving, so long as you remember all the people that you used to be."

-The Doctor

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I suppose I can see with some of the points made why the elements might not be as OP as I thought, but honestly no one really knows the exact capabilities of every type of toa, such as if a toa of water could dehydrate objects to dust (possible, but not seen, or confirmed).

 

I've always imagined all the toa to be somewhat equal in power, but if for example Gali were to face off against a powerful opponent, she could attempt to drown them, or blast them with painful blasts of water. No what if you got a toa of Iron to fight this exact opponent? They could just freeze them in place by taking control of the iron in their body and leave them almost completely vulnerable/unable to attack. They are trapped and unable to do anything at all (in most cases) to defend themselves. In games, powers like these that make other players unable to react are considered OP and are carefully kept out. (think Magneto vs Wolverine, not an exciting fight is it?)

 

Now many of you have pointed out that the Toa Code keeps them from using all their power and how toa don't kill, but like I just mentioned, a toa of Iron or other could easily render an opponent vulnerable/unable to fight back. The original toa (and some of the extended elements like lightning and plant-life) had to fight hard to win, while a toa from some of the extended elements could almost effortlessly win a battle in seconds just by concentrating.

 

Plus these extended elements don't really feel like "elements". Ones like gravity and magnetism don't fit in because they aren't something you can see. They're natural forces, yes, but they don't seem tangible or like something you could dodge or escape.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don't even really see why greg made some of these OP elements anyways when they never appeared in any sets.

A long series of discussions over what made sense as elements within the MU went on on the old forums, especially in the old Official Elements Topic and some others. But note I don't really buy the premise that any of them are objectively overpowered. :P That's being said now, and it was said a few times before but by and large everybody agreed they made sense as Toa elements. Also, even if you could call them "over" powered the question is "over what?" and "why can't Toa have powers that go over that line, whatever it is?"

 

In other words, whether they're "over" powered is more a matter of personal preference than objective logic for the most part (barring the things I mentioned before and such).

 

but honestly no one really knows the exact capabilities of every type of toa, such as if a toa of water could dehydrate objects to dust (possible, but not seen, or confirmed).

To dust would depend on the substance, but they could definitely absorb all the water out of you (and other things), although they would then have to re-materialize that moisture quickly somewhere else. That is confirmed.

 

I've always imagined all the toa to be somewhat equal in power, but if for example Gali were to face off against a powerful opponent, she could attempt to drown them, or blast them with painful blasts of water. No what if you got a toa of Iron to fight this exact opponent?

Like I said, all such whowouldwins are situational, but I'm presuming we get that now. To try to answer the question:

 

They could just freeze them in place by taking control of the iron in their body and leave them almost completely vulnerable/unable to attack.

Actually I'd have to go with Gali on this one, since locking up their armor doesn't prevent them from using powers. Gali could overwhelm them with a chaotic flood so they don't even know where to direct their power. If they have no powers, I'd go with the Toa of Iron, though, as it would be a more efficient way to quickly detain them prior to materializing a cage around them. Gali could make a TON of water surround them and hold it up telekinetically, so they couldn't hold their breath long enough to swim out but that would obviously cost way more EE. But beings with powers seem to be more the rule than the exception, so yeah.

 

And Kopaka would be better than both of these. Both detain them AND freezebrain so no power usage. :P

 

In games, powers like these that make other players unable to react are considered OP and are carefully kept out. (think Magneto vs Wolverine, not an exciting fight is it?)

Not at all -- lots of games have freeze options.  But it depends on the game and what they want in their universe. Bionicle has in its favor that it tries to be much more realistic and not artificially keep something out when that thing makes sense that somebody would want it in a realistic (but fictional) world.

 

(My own RPG computer game, The Map of Mata Nui, has Stun Spears that would temporarily freeze enemies, ironically.)

 

Although depending on the method used, Iron's use of this could be better or worse than Ice. Ice will not continually use EE to keep the freezing effect on (for a while), while Iron would. Unless Iron actually changed the shape of the metal to fuse it permanently, but then you're stepping beyond the Code. So, as long as we keep the Code around, I'd think Ice is more effective than Iron for that (but still not really objectively OP... except in cold regions lol!).

 

Incidentally, Magneto and Wolverine both exist within one story, so that doesn't work as a case for banning one or the other (not sure you meant that, but yeah).

 

Now many of you have pointed out that the Toa Code keeps them from using all their power and how toa don't kill, but like I just mentioned, a toa of Iron or other could easily render an opponent vulnerable/unable to fight back. The original toa (and some of the extended elements like lightning and plant-life) had to fight hard to win

It all depends. Actually, wouldn't lightning be more like Kopaka? Tazer. And plants depends... what if they make a plant with a toxin rendering the enemy unconscious, perhaps emitted as a gas? Wouldn't be as quick, a bit of fighting, but yeah.

 

No element is ever guaranteed to require a long or difficult fight to win -- it all depends on the situation. Bionicle battles are more about using your mind to solve problems than how long it is or how much effort it takes. An Iron Toa can lock somebody's armor up like that, but only if they think of it, and thinking of it is good as it produces that reward. But opponents can also think of ways to prepare against that threat, or in many cases adapt if they face it.

 

Plus these extended elements don't really feel like "elements". Ones like gravity and magnetism don't fit in because they aren't something you can see.

The definition of element in Bionicle is a major aspect of nature which those definitely are. They are energy elements like light. Also, two of the original elements had ingredients you couldn't see -- heat and cold energy -- and air isn't necessarily seen. Being visible isn't part of the definition of element.

 

They're natural forces, yes, but they don't seem tangible or like something you could dodge or escape.

That's not really part of the definition either, but you can dodge beams of a power controlling them, and get out of range (and match forces against them with situationally better powers -- using your wits). And would apply just as much to uses of cold or heat.

 

But that they have differences from the original elements is not a good argument against them, as that comes with the territory of adding elements. The point is that the originals were chosen based on the definition of element that Bionicle uses, and by the same definition, those counted, so they were incorporated as well (in part because many of them had already been used in a story context which made it seem likely they were elements -- namely the Bohrok Kal, coming after the Bohrok which clearly did have elemental powers, other than the green ones).

The Destiny of Bionicle (chronological retelling of Bionicle original series, 9 PDFs of 10 chapters each on Google Drive)Part 1 - Warring with Fate | Part 2 - Year of Change | Part 3 - The Exploration Trap | Part 4 - Rise of the Warlords | Part 5 - A Busy Matoran | Part 6 - The Dark Time | Part 7 - Proving Grounds | Part 8 - A Rude Awakening | Part 9 - The Battle of Giants

My Bionicle Fanfiction  (Google Drive folder, eventually planned to have PDFs of all of it)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I suppose I can see with some of the points made why the elements might not be as OP as I thought, but honestly no one really knows the exact capabilities of every type of toa, such as if a toa of water could dehydrate objects to dust (possible, but not seen, or confirmed).

 

I've always imagined all the toa to be somewhat equal in power, but if for example Gali were to face off against a powerful opponent, she could attempt to drown them, or blast them with painful blasts of water. No what if you got a toa of Iron to fight this exact opponent? They could just freeze them in place by taking control of the iron in their body and leave them almost completely vulnerable/unable to attack. They are trapped and unable to do anything at all (in most cases) to defend themselves. In games, powers like these that make other players unable to react are considered OP and are carefully kept out. (think Magneto vs Wolverine, not an exciting fight is it?)

 

Now many of you have pointed out that the Toa Code keeps them from using all their power and how toa don't kill, but like I just mentioned, a toa of Iron or other could easily render an opponent vulnerable/unable to fight back. The original toa (and some of the extended elements like lightning and plant-life) had to fight hard to win, while a toa from some of the extended elements could almost effortlessly win a battle in seconds just by concentrating.

 

Plus these extended elements don't really feel like "elements". Ones like gravity and magnetism don't fit in because they aren't something you can see. They're natural forces, yes, but they don't seem tangible or like something you could dodge or escape.

Yes, but a Toa of Air can just as easily asphyxiate someone, or a Toa of Fire could cause massive explosions that could kill multiple targets at the same time. A Toa of Iron might be OP against mostly metallic beings, or against Biomechanical beings with a 70-30 composition. However, against mostly organic beings, or biomechanical beings with a 30-70 composition, they would have significantly more trouble. 

 

Moreover, elemental powers are not end-all-be-all. There's mask powers to consider as well. Not to mention other special powers. A Toa of Iron, for example, would be at a complete loss against someone with a mask of intangibility. I imagine a mask of strength or speed might mitigate the effects on the victim as well. If anyone was overpowered, it would have been the Makuta species. Within their 42 Kraata powers are stuff like gravity, chain lightning, invulnerability, and disintegration. This is the reason why Greg considered Tahu to be the strongest Toa, ahead of Tuyet with a Nui stone, despite the fact that the Nui stone granted Tuyet immense elemental powers. 

 

So even if some elemental powers may indeed be better than others (which I don't believe they are), the existence of mask powers and other powers can easily offset this. Not to mention variables like skill, experience, and plot devices. I mean if elemental powers were everything, technically the Piraka wouldn't have stood a chance against the Nuva. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Then again, we don't know exactly what would be considered easy or difficult for one of these "OP" Toa.

 

Maybe a Toa of Iron would need to concentrate on freezing every portion of a target's armour and that might be draining? :shrugs:

 

Also, Jovan is a Magnetism Toa.

Good point, in Dark Mirror the rebellion was managing to keep a toa of iron "too off balance to use his powers" so I suppose some elements (if they are stronger than the others) need more concentration than others.

 

 

 

 

*snip*

Yes, but a Toa of Air can just as easily asphyxiate someone, or a Toa of Fire could cause massive explosions that could kill multiple targets at the same time. A Toa of Iron might be OP against mostly metallic beings, or against Biomechanical beings with a 70-30 composition. However, against mostly organic beings, or biomechanical beings with a 30-70 composition, they would have significantly more trouble. 

 

Moreover, elemental powers are not end-all-be-all. There's mask powers to consider as well. Not to mention other special powers. A Toa of Iron, for example, would be at a complete loss against someone with a mask of intangibility. I imagine a mask of strength or speed might mitigate the effects on the victim as well. If anyone was overpowered, it would have been the Makuta species. Within their 42 Kraata powers are stuff like gravity, chain lightning, invulnerability, and disintegration. This is the reason why Greg considered Tahu to be the strongest Toa, ahead of Tuyet with a Nui stone, despite the fact that the Nui stone granted Tuyet immense elemental powers. 

 

So even if some elemental powers may indeed be better than others (which I don't believe they are), the existence of mask powers and other powers can easily offset this. Not to mention variables like skill, experience, and plot devices. I mean if elemental powers were everything, technically the Piraka wouldn't have stood a chance against the Nuva. 

 

Your point on the toa of iron seems a little invalid to me because they could still control the being fairly well with not much struggle but I get what you mean.

 

Everything else you said makes some pretty good sense though. I guess the extended family isn't so OP but I still can't help feel that it doesn't completely fit in. I dunno.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Even if Iron or Magnetism can leave an opponent physically unable to move, there's a good chance that the opponent will have mask or elemental powers of their own that don't require the user to be physically mobile to activate. Those that inhibit the foe's mental capabilities are probably most effective (freezing, psionics, etc,)

3DS Friend Code: 0018-0767-4231

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Even if Iron or Magnetism can leave an opponent physically unable to move, there's a good chance that the opponent will have mask or elemental powers of their own that don't require the user to be physically mobile to activate. Those that inhibit the foe's mental capabilities are probably most effective (freezing, psionics, etc,)

Well a toa of Magnetism can simply negate the magnetic power holding a mask to one's face, making it fall off. A toa of iron could just break the mask without breaking the toa code.

 

Though you are right about opponents often having extra powers that they don't need to be mobile to access, but they still have to be able to concentrate, and being forced into place could kinda tip one off.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A Toa of Iron, for example, would be at a complete loss against someone with a mask of intangibility.

I don't think that would be a problem, though it's an interesting idea. They would still be made partially of metal, so intangible or not, I'd think a Toa who controls metal should still be able to control the motion of that metal.

 

It would be interesting to compare mask powers and other abilities with this "Iron-freeze" trick. I'm a little more interested in options without powers at the moment:

 

1) Don't let the good guy know you're the bad guy. (In real life, guns and tazers will take you down pretty quick, so such things can't be overpowered realistically -- so what do criminals do? They sneak.)

 

2) Superior numbers. (Esp. relevant in later years of MU history when numbers of Toa were dwindling. The Fe-Toa would be spending energy constantly to hold a large number still, and even faster if he then tried to make cages. He would basically have to run away unless he had just enough to cage them all in time. And they would be left with all their abilities still ready to use on him, en masse, once's he's on empty. This does, though, support the Toa being OP -- at least in situations where the enemies don't have effective powers against him -- but it would quite possibly happen a lot later on, and since that's still situational...)

 

3) Ambush and knock out (or kill for that matter; enemies don't go by the Code). But this one's not 100% fair as ambush would work well against any Toa, unless they had the few mask powers or elements good at seeing it coming.

 

4) Self-modification with stronger mechanical components? (Or use of species that naturally have that, if any.) Might need more EE to freeze.

 

5) Send organic beings after them, Morby-style (probably very rare though). Or maybe Vatuka beasts or other elementals.

 

6) An extreme option -- rebuild yourself so all your mechanical components are nonmetallic. :P (Or maybe something like a nonmetal machine shoulder-mounted to auto-aim a weapon on mental control, though that gets into powers.)

 

 

These don't really make Iron definitely not OP, but at least there are situations where they wouldn't necessarily win. I think the big question is, if overpowered should really be defined as having a power that is a good match against the types of beings that happen to be common, or if that's unfair because the same power in a different universe wouldn't have that issue. I do think #1 could be extremely effective, though -- a Toa isn't going to go around freezing random people just because they may be slight suspects. The villain could even possibly get them to carry on a friendly conversation, until ambush up close. There be options.

The Destiny of Bionicle (chronological retelling of Bionicle original series, 9 PDFs of 10 chapters each on Google Drive)Part 1 - Warring with Fate | Part 2 - Year of Change | Part 3 - The Exploration Trap | Part 4 - Rise of the Warlords | Part 5 - A Busy Matoran | Part 6 - The Dark Time | Part 7 - Proving Grounds | Part 8 - A Rude Awakening | Part 9 - The Battle of Giants

My Bionicle Fanfiction  (Google Drive folder, eventually planned to have PDFs of all of it)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wonder what Air is capable of uninhibited by the Toa code? Greg implied that a Toa of Air could have used air pressure to blow up Tren Krom- could that be done to anyone- or just organic beings?

 

Also, worth noting that out of those who have removed themselves from the Toa code, we have two Toa of Water, two (one now deceased) of Air, one of Iron and maybe one of Lightning. That's at least three of the most deadly elements when uninhibited right there. Lesovikk, Helryx, and Zaria are generally good guys, but the implications of Tuyet being let loose on a planet full of organic beings is terrifying.

Edited by Alyska

3DS Friend Code: 0018-0767-4231

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...