Should the Whole Orde Thing Be Decanonized?

[Dorkpool]

By "whole Orde thing" I mean the whole "Orde is the only male Toa of Psionics because the GB thought that females are gentler" thing.

So, should this be decanonized?

[CeeCee]

I dont see why it should be.

[The Lorax]

No. Just because the Great Beings thought something was a good idea doesn't make it true or good (this has been proven many times throughout BIONICE history). It is part of the world now.

[TheSkeletonMan939]

No. Is there a legitimate reason why?

 

Just because you personally don't like something about a fictional universe doesn't mean you should parade around trying to decanonize it.

[toa kopaka4372]

No. It's caused a lot of controversy but that's no reason to be rid of it.

[Iver]

Actually, when it comes to delicate tasks that require focus (such as welding), females tend to do better. I suppose that using psionics is similar. And Bionicle has had too many mini retcons anyway, without erasing a whole character.

[bonesiii]

Why is this multiple choice? It's a yes or no question.

 

Anyways, I wouldn't mind if it was. But note that all we know is Orde claimed that was their reason. It is unlikely he was actually in a position to know. Something changed after his incident, and he could easily have been wrong in his guess as to why (I've got a theory that avoids the issue in my retelling on this, and suggested a second in a comment attached to that chapter). Also, he was probably angry at them for putting him in the dangerous and basically unwinnable situation with the Zyglak (probably unwinnable only due to their not really preparing him enough for what to expect), so he had motive to paint them in an unfairly negative light.

 

Even if they did make that mistake, characters being flawed is possible (though this one seems unlikely for scientists).

 

On the other hand, this all seems to have been missed by most fans, so I can see a strong case for decanonizing it simply as too confusing and possibly misleading. Lots of things have been decanonized, I see no reason for this to have special protection. But I went with no as I strongly prefer that things don't get decanonized on principle; instead ways to incorporate them in more reasonable ways should be sought, usually.

 

However, a rewriting of the scene I would support to remove the risk of confusion. (Making something like my interpretation clear. I definitely wouldn't remove Orde. Quite possibly, I would make him just the first notable example of the exceptions to the normal genders that Greg has recently allowed for, and hope that actually gets used to put in more females.)

[Zidonaro]

Yes it should. It's not even because is sexist, it's because sounds really stupid. This whole exclusive gender should be decanonized too.

[TheSkeletonMan939]

Yes it should. It's not even because is sexist, it's because sounds really stupid. This whole exclusive gender should be decanonized too.

 

It's not sexist. It was Greg's way of trying to make Orde remotely interesting.

[Pomegranate]

I say, leave it. While it's nasty, it explains a lot about the gender stuff in the MU, and that explanation is that the Great Beings have some really wacky ideas about gender roles and stuff. I never really got that worked up about it 'cause it seemed to me that it sorta made sense that they'd do that, with their terrible way of thinking and all, that after their first Toa of Psionics went off the rails and did some crazy stuff they'd just go "well since the male was so violent, let's just make the rest female just in case that solves the issue. Just change it all up. Trial and error." The Great Beings weren't exactly the best planners, from all evidence in all of Bionicle. The only thing that ever went right is that Mata Nui did manage to restore Spherus Magna. Other than that... the Toa Orde thing isn't even halfway on their infinite list of things going horribly wrong

[Zidonaro]

 

Yes it should. It's not even because is sexist, it's because sounds really stupid. This whole exclusive gender should be decanonized too.

 

It's not sexist. It was Greg's way of trying to make Orde remotely interesting.

 

 

It's still a stupid reason, imo, sorry. There are other ways of making an unique and interesting character without having to make him the only male in the entire element.

[Sumiki]

I don't see any reason for its decanonization because I'm still of the belief that, had Greg continued the serials, he would have shown just how flawed the Great Beings were in this matter. The GBs were never perfect, and this kind of emphasizes that.

[I Exist]

Well, I think no. What's done is done, We must live with it.

Lately I've been taking the post-Bionicle Ending serials with a grain of salt since I'm not sure thery will stay canon in a possible return of Bionicle. 

[LewaLew]

This is one of the last things I wanted to see. That Orde argument was one of the bad memories of being on BZPower. Anyhow, I don't think Orde would be important if BIONICLE restarts. He was a very minor character in the big picture, and I figure that most of the story serials and previous BIONICLE story will be either unimportant or retconned as part of a mass reboot. Sort of like how the Star Wars EU is non-canon now.

[The Lorax]

It's not sexist. It was Greg's way of trying to make Orde remotely interesting.

 

 

Sadly, no. The real reason was that when he wrote the first chapter with Orde in it, Greg had forgotten that psionics was supposed to be a female element. Orde's backstory was introduced as an attempt to explain away the mistake. It wasn't planned out ahead of time, which is why there are a bunch of issues surrounding it.

[Banana Gunz]

In general I would say this wouldn't be a problem if the whole division of different genders into specific elements was changed, but that argument has been beat out pretty well.

 

With what we have, it's just a bother to have to de-canonize something like that, especially since we've already had Orde presented to us as a male. In general, the serials probably won't hold much importance in the future anyway. I don't think it's sexist, especially since everyone forgets the remark Chiara made after he told her his story. That was specifically put in there to show the irony in it and how the Great Beings were just kinda ridiculous at solving problems (I mean honestly, it feels like everything they made was doomed to fail because of their awful planning, and only due to chance and un-predictable incidents has their entire world been saved).

 

But what's done is done, no use bickering over it all. That serial in general didn't seem like it was actually gonna be going anywhere, so it's not a problem to me.

[Guardian Legend]

No reason to honestly. It's just more lore, which I like. 

[Jakura Nuva]

I don't understand why so many people get worked up over these things.

 

Orde, terrible gender ratios, etc. - okay, they were bad, I'll admit it. But that's past story. From nearly five years ago. How about, instead of focusing on the problems from the past, we work towards fixing the future?

I'm pretty okay with retconning genders and bringing more strong female characters into the story/teams, believe me. But it seems a complete waste of time and effort to go back and decanonize Orde. Why not just focus on making the line better here and now? Why must we go back to the past and change everything?

 

In general I would say this wouldn't be a problem if the whole division of different genders into specific elements was changed, but that argument has been beat out pretty well.

 

With what we have, it's just a bother to have to de-canonize something like that, especially since we've already had Orde presented to us as a male. In general, the serials probably won't hold much importance in the future anyway. I don't think it's sexist, especially since everyone forgets the remark Chiara made after he told her his story. That was specifically put in there to show the irony in it and how the Great Beings were just kinda ridiculous at solving problems (I mean honestly, it feels like everything they made was doomed to fail because of their awful planning, and only due to chance and un-predictable incidents has their entire world been saved).

 

But what's done is done, no use bickering over it all. That serial in general didn't seem like it was actually gonna be going anywhere, so it's not a problem to me.

 

I agree completely with BG here.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Jakura Nuva

[Pomegranate]

I don't understand why so many people get worked up over these things.

 

Orde, terrible gender ratios, etc. - okay, they were bad, I'll admit it. But that's past story. From nearly five years ago. How about, instead of focusing on the problems from the past, we work towards fixing the future?

I'm pretty okay with retconning genders and bringing more strong female characters into the story/teams, believe me. But it seems a complete waste of time and effort to go back and decanonize Orde. Why not just focus on making the line better here and now? Why must we go back to the past and change everything?

The Orde thing was an issue that came up as soon as Orde was invented, and now it's being brought up again in the wake of a potential return. There's nothing wrong with focusing on the past, especially since we don't actually have anything confirmed and new going on. Is it hard to talk about both? Just 'cause something is in the past does not mean it's not important. Also, gender issues and stuff are the sort of thing that are only recently coming into full public awareness, which is why those topics have only started popping up relatively recently. Five years isn't really that long-- that's like it being 2006, and someone yelling "why are we still talking about the Chronicler's Company? That was like five years ago, get over it, it's ancient. The Inika are these six characters and not those others, deal with it. Just focus on making the future better. Like those new Inika builds! They're brilliant! I would love to see more of that"  We're allowed to look back, that's how we solve new problems. History repeating, and all that

 

It's not even an issue that's being discussed, someone is just asking for folks' opinions on getting it decanonized, 'cause it was basically post-cancellation so sort of in that fuzzy "there's still time to retcon this" zone.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Pomegranate

[Jakura Nuva]

 

I don't understand why so many people get worked up over these things.

 

Orde, terrible gender ratios, etc. - okay, they were bad, I'll admit it. But that's past story. From nearly five years ago. How about, instead of focusing on the problems from the past, we work towards fixing the future?

I'm pretty okay with retconning genders and bringing more strong female characters into the story/teams, believe me. But it seems a complete waste of time and effort to go back and decanonize Orde. Why not just focus on making the line better here and now? Why must we go back to the past and change everything?

The Orde thing was an issue that came up as soon as Orde was invented, and now it's being brought up again in the wake of a potential return. There's nothing wrong with focusing on the past, especially since we don't actually have anything confirmed and new going on. Is it hard to talk about both? Just 'cause something is in the past does not mean it's not important. Also, gender issues and stuff are the sort of thing that are only recently coming into full public awareness, which is why those topics have only started popping up relatively recently. Five years isn't really that long-- that's like it being 2006, and someone yelling "why are we still talking about the Chronicler's Company? That was like five years ago, get over it, it's ancient. The Inika are these six characters and not those others, deal with it. Just focus on making the future better. Like those new Inika builds! They're brilliant! I would love to see more of that"  We're allowed to look back, that's how we solve new problems. History repeating, and all that

 

It's not even an issue that's being discussed, someone is just asking for folks' opinions on getting it decanonized, 'cause it was basically post-cancellation so sort of in that fuzzy "there's still time to retcon this" zone.

 

It's not "bashing", it's responding. If you think you know that your commentary is so provocative that it'll illicit an irrational response, you can't also prematurely blame others for their reactions Nobody is gonna baaaash, you brought up a good point. So far a lot of people are agreeing that it's in the past. I don't think I ever saw anyone try to decanonize anything in the recent past, actually, besides Tamaru's gender, which is just a little fan thing and nothing really major. Are we getting worked up here? Not yet, I don't think 

 

 

Wow. There were a lot of sections in there where I could have replied, "Touche"

 

[Deleted]

Edited August 7, 2014 by Jakura Nuva

[Pomegranate]

[redacted]

Fiction can easily be retconned, it happens all the time, usually for the better. It's not about changing the past, it's just about fixing a weird plot element. If love can be decanonized, so can the Orde thing.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Pomegranate

[Toatapio Nuva]

Although it doesn't really matter to me, I voted yes, because the idea was dumb to begin with.

[Toa Smoke Monster]

I don't see any reason for its decanonization because I'm still of the belief that, had Greg continued the serials, he would have shown just how flawed the Great Beings were in this matter. The GBs were never perfect, and this kind of emphasizes that.

This is why I also think should be left alone. 

[Alyska]

I think Orde's explanation of the GB's behaviour fits perfectly with what we know of them so far, and it explains a lot of the issues with the gender ratios in the Matoran Universe. It's also kind of a metaphor for how LEGO made certain decisions in Bionicle's development- apparently including females at all was a last-minute decision, and it was decided that the water folk would be female due to the connotations of water being gentle and peaceful.

 

That said... I voted "yes". I don't like the fact that we were promised a team with Toa of Psionics, Lightning, and Iron- that was two female elements and one male! Revolutionary by LEGO's standards! And then we end up with two guys and one woman. I don't know if Orde's gender was an accident on Greg's part that he didn't want to fess up to, or a deliberate break of the rules just so there didn't have to be two women on the team (I'd had an extensive discussion with Greg just a few months before as to whether, say, a female Ta-Matoran could exist. Greg said that the GBs could have made one if they had wanted to, but he didn't like the idea of making the possibility of female Ta-Matoran currently existing in the main universe canon because it would "open the floodgates" for fans to start demanding whole villages of female Ta-Matoran... so, you can kind of see why I'd be a little miffed that he proceeded to go and do the exact opposite ).

 

If Orde's gender was a mistake, I would have liked the chapter to have been edited as soon as Greg realised it. If it wasn't a mistake... well, I'm not going to comment on that possibility. It just strikes me as something incredibly messy that I'd prefer had not happened. I know that there's no possibility of retconning that much content, but, needless to say, I'm hopeful for a reboot that doesn't have this much of a problem with gender.

[The Lorax]

I don't know if Orde's gender was an accident on Greg's part that he didn't want to fess up to

 

 

It was a mistake and he did fess up to it, almost immediately if memory serves. This fits with the discussion you had with him. He didn't want to break the gender rules at all, but was forced into creating an explanation for why he accidentally had.

[Toa Lhikan Hordika]

However, a rewriting of the scene I would support to remove the risk of confusion. (Making something like my interpretation clear. I definitely wouldn't remove Orde. Quite possibly, I would make him just the first notable example of the exceptions to the normal genders that Greg has recently allowed for, and hope that actually gets used to put in more females.)

 

I must have missed something, when did Greg allow for exceptions to the normal genders?  Could I get a link to that?

 

-

[toa kopaka4372]

 

However, a rewriting of the scene I would support to remove the risk of confusion. (Making something like my interpretation clear. I definitely wouldn't remove Orde. Quite possibly, I would make him just the first notable example of the exceptions to the normal genders that Greg has recently allowed for, and hope that actually gets used to put in more females.)

 

I must have missed something, when did Greg allow for exceptions to the normal genders?  Could I get a link to that?

 

-

 

Look through the Official Greg Compendium topic, I think it was mentioned there.

[TheSkeletonMan939]

One member tried to force out of Greg's mouth the very implausible possibility that there could be naturally occurring Matoran of the opposite gender (a female Ta-Matoran or male Ga-Matoran, for instance), and everyone immediately took it for definite fact. Personally, I'm not buying it - at least, not beyond tests like Orde.

 

 

Quote

 

Quote

 

So for the sake of accuracy on BS01, should we say, on the various matoran pages, that  "Almost all (element)-matoran are (gender)"?

 

Or perhaps you could specify which elements, if not all, have some/an exception(s) to the rule? 

 

Cuz it would make sense that the great beings experimented a bit with each element... if they made the decision that "all Ko-matoran from here on out are male", something must have happened with a female Ko-matoran to make them do that? (and likewise for the other elements...like a few male ga- and vo-matoran?)

Keep in  mind that they did not have lots of time for experimentation. They were in a rush to get this thing built and launched. At any rate, saying this is possible does not mean I want to now assert that there is an exception in every Matoran tribe. I think that would be going too far. And without actual characters being created, I am not sure of the point of specifying tribes.

[bonesiii]

One member tried to force out of Greg's mouth the very implausible possibility that there could be naturally occurring Matoran of the opposite gender (a female Ta-Matoran or male Ga-Matoran, for instance), and everyone immediately took it for definite fact. Personally, I'm not buying it - at least, not beyond tests like Orde.

I haven't seen anybody taking it that way at all, though misunderstandings happen. As I said, the news is that Greg allowed for it. Previously we were told it didn't happen, so that is a change.

 

The actual quote was:

 

 

Quote

Considering that the great beings made orde male before making other psionic matoran female, does that mean there could be other exceptions to the "gender element" rule with other elements?

Possibly.

The old understanding would have been "impossible."

 

Also note the "without actual characters" bit -- meaning, there's hope that future characters in a Bionicle return might be exceptions.

[LewaLew]

Also, gender issues and stuff are the sort of thing that are only recently coming into full public awareness, which is why those topics have only started popping up relatively recently.

Actually, there have been discussions of BIONICLE's gender problems since the very beginning. You don't have a 5:1 male-female ratio and not notice until fifteen years later. BIONICLE has always had problems with gender, mainly because the target audience has always been young boys.

[Pomegranate]

 

Also, gender issues and stuff are the sort of thing that are only recently coming into full public awareness, which is why those topics have only started popping up relatively recently.

Actually, there have been discussions of BIONICLE's gender problems since the very beginning. You don't have a 5:1 male-female ratio and not notice until fifteen years later. BIONICLE has always had problems with gender, mainly because the target audience has always been young boys.

It's been brought up, but never this frequently in one period of time and with as many educated responses and opinions on it. I'd never seen topics that went anything like the last couple months' worth have.

[bonesiii]

It's been brought up, but never this frequently in one period of time and with as many educated responses and opinions on it

That probably has more to do with an aging (and maturing) fanbase. BZPower has experienced an improvement in member attitudes toward each other across the board as a result of that; it isn't just this issue. (Part of it may also be Bionicle just being gone for five years; this might change if it does come back... we'll see.) Previously the topics almost always turned quickly into flamewars, so they never got very far.

Edited August 7, 2014 by bonesiii

[Akavakaku]

I say drop it, not because it itself should be retconned, but because you'd have to retcon it to retcon the gender ratios. We can even have a similar version, where perhaps Orde was relieved of duty in favor of a gentler female Toa of Psionics and in-universe sexism and accusations thereof ensue.

[toa kopaka4372]

I just wish that when people discuss this they keep in mind that literally after Orde finished explaining his backstory Chiara showed annoyance and aimed biting sarcasm at his words, showing that the narrative acknowledged the problem and deemed it inappropriate. But if memory serves me right, back when the serial first came out, people didn't think that was good enough, or something along those lines...

[Zox Tomana]

I think that, while controversial, I think the fact that we all (and having read arguments for both sides of the debate about the sexism of the fact I do believe we all) recognize that the whole idea is silly. Some people don't regard it as blatant sexism, other do. None deny that there is no particular reason that the feminine gender has to be considered gentler than the masculine. I personally see it as a flaw in the genius of the Great Beings. It is color on the fabric that is the BIONICLE storyline. If there was nothing controversial, nothing beyond the boundaries of safety, nothing that causes us to push back... wouldn't that be a bland world? Part of the wonder of literature (even children's) is that we interact with it, pulling it in and pushing it back, and that interaction causes us to grow. Right now on BZP we have been growing through our debates, learning to understand each other and how we view BIONICLE. In that light, I think the whole Order idea has actually been a good thing even if the values it may or may not bespeak are questionable.

[fishers64]

I think it should stay if only to inspire discussions on this topic. It's a commentary on the idea that the GBs thought they needed more guys in their spaceship and realized only afterward that wasn't completely a good idea. 

 

I like it.