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Um, the pieces of Spherus Magna were too unstable to be reunited right away. If he tried to reunite them sooner, they probably would crumble and cause even more damage. 

 

Personally I thought Teridax should have unleashed his big gravity strike of doom from the relative safety of Aqua Magna instead of going to Bara and putting him at the mercy of the other big guy with a robot. :shrugs: That would have been smarter. 

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In Journey's End, Greg explained (not very well) that the planet could be reformed for 100,000 years, and that they launched the robot early so that it could collect data on other cultures as a secondary goal.

What bothers me is that the Makuta (especially Teridax) were created with great ambition so that they would take over that Matoran Universe and ally with Mata Nui (now in a second body) to fix the planet.  It was this ambition that caused him to NOT want to help Mata Nui repair Spherus Magna in the first place.  Why not just tell them their purpose?  

Now, their IS an explanation for this: the Makuta essence that possessed Brutaka implied that they did know, but merely forgot.  This could be attributed to Velika, saying that he "removed" this knowledge when he made everyone sapient.  


But if all you needed was someone to control the robot when Mata Nui leaves, why not just reuse Tren Krom? 

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Personally, I think Mata Nui should have reunited Spherus Magna right after he was activated, instead of flying off for 100,000 years and then coming back.

Yeah no. That's a good way to risk killing everybody, before you know what you're doing. Those 100,000 years of study of other worlds should be essential. Maybe not that much, but presumably it took that long for them to stabilize, so he really had no choice.

 

No, Mata Nui's mistake was not paying attention to his insides after a while.

 

Personally I thought Teridax should have unleashed his big gravity strike of doom from the relative safety of Aqua Magna instead of going to Bara and putting him at the mercy of the other big guy with a robot. :shrugs: That would have been smarter.

I don't think he knew there was another robot until he landed. If I'm wrong on that, might be nice to know, heh. But yeah, still a "hindsight" mistake. (Unless added range would make it not work -- which would actually be reasonable given that it didn't turn the moons into black holes... then again, they're smaller anyways.)

 

What bothers me is that the Makuta (especially Teridax) were created with great ambition so that they would take over that Matoran Universe and ally with Mata Nui (now in a second body) to fix the planet.  It was this ambition that caused him to NOT want to help Mata Nui repair Spherus Magna in the first place.  Why not just tell them their purpose?

One obvious problem with "their" (bolding mine) -- only one Makuta had that destiny. They could still glitch and something like jealousy of Teridax could happen among the others. Also, since they weren't supposed to be sapient, there shouldn't have been a problem -- so if you mean this was a mistake of Mata Nui and/or the Great Beings (other than Velika), I don't think so. It was a side effect of Velika's actions.

 

But if all you needed was someone to control the robot when Mata Nui leaves, why not just reuse Tren Krom?

I'm actually not sure if he was sapient all along and could have feelings like hatred, etc. -- and he's so alien it might not matter -- but point is, they chained the guy up, I doubt even a nonsapient TK would be trustworthy to do the right thing by that time, from the GBs' perspective. Keep in mind that as nonsapient AI, they still had emotions.

 

Also, "reuse" is the wrong word here. He was in Karda Nui, not the Core Processor. He just kept the body functions going. I don't think he was designed for healing a planet. Evidently Teridax was.

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Makuta's only mistake was not planning ahead. Which is kind of ironic, in actuality, considering that he's famous for his great big brilliant plan. Think about it, he planned and adapted all these different strategies to ensure that he could conquer the universe. First he shut down Mata Nui so that the Makuta Brotherhood could step up and take his place. When the Toa derailed that operation, he came up with a new strategy that involved letting the Toa win, which in turn would help him win. 

 

But that's where the planning stopped. He never considered the possibility that sometime after taking over this giant, all-powerful giant robot body someone, on the inside or the outside, might find a way to defeat him. He was arrogant. He didn't think he needed backup plans anymore. If he'd had contingency plans to consider the possibility of being defeated or irreparably damaged, he might have still been able to survive the destruction of the Matoran Universe. and live to fight another day.

 

So Makuta's biggest mistake, at least in my eyes, was his single-minded arrogance.

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Makuta's only mistake was not planning ahead. [...] But that's where the planning stopped.

Er, no it didn't. He didn't see the moon thing coming, but that doesn't prove he didn't plan ahead. It just proves there was something he didn't think of. It would be interesting to see a poll of whether fans thought of it ahead of time either (if they recall) -- I certainly didn't. He also might not have even known about Bara Magna for long, until the takeover or just after, so he might not have had time to consider all variables they way he did before. But some of his thoughts in planning are on record in the story, so this is not so. :)

 

He never considered the possibility that sometime after taking over this giant, all-powerful giant robot body someone, on the inside or the outside, might find a way to defeat him.

False. He delayed taking off to destroy Mata Nui because he wanted to have time to focus on eliminating most of the interior threats, and he did indeed whittle them down to a point where they were unable to do anything from inside to remove him, at least in the time alotted. He thwarted an attack on the Core Processor too! Do you think it didn't occur to him then they might try again? Obviously he would be keeping an eye on it.

 

As for outside, I don't think he knew until he saw the prototype that there was anything else that could be a serious threat, but I'm sure the possibility would have crossed his mind. He probably did assume there was nothing, but once he saw the other giant, his thinking would certainly be more likely to be based on what direct threats it could have against him, rather than odd unlikelihoods like a moon headshot!

 

If he'd had contingency plans to consider the possibility of being defeated or irreparably damaged, he might have still been able to survive the destruction of the Matoran Universe. and live to fight another day.

You could be somewhat right about this, but we don't know what it takes to back up an antidermis being. The Red Star can't do it, so he would have had to invent one himself, and he didn't likely have time to devote to it. And the RS requires a body, but his antidermis would be entirely spread out or possibly superheated (due to collision heat) to the point of burning by that impact, so there should be nothing to work with. Of course, that doesn't preclude backing up just his consciousness, but it wasn't really a reasonable assumption that the Core Processor would suddenly get smashed by that.

 

That's the kind of idea nobody's likely to think of -- it's already unlikely enough that Mata Nui would (but makes a lot of sense for him as he spent a lot of time thinking about the moons; it was his whole purpose for being, and the possibility of a collision with a tall structure on the way down might have already occurred to him in his 100,000 years of preparations and observing alien worlds), but having Makuta think of the danger in that short amount of time, while distracted would seriously stretch plausibility. So, it's unlikely even the least arrogant bad guy would think of that. I agree he was somewhat arrogant (how could he not be, in trying to throw away everything the giant robot and its people were just for his own selfish gain?), but I don't think this is valid as an example of its effects -- not much anyways.

 

 

BTW, thought of another point re: earlier -- one big downside to Teridax remaining in orbit to use the gravity attack is that the prototype robot could easily hit him with its laser weapon. A melee fight is the only real way to stop that, other than attacking, admittedly, from the other side of the planet. But again, I'm not sure he knew there was another giant until he was already landing. Then it was probably too late to flee without being hit by a laser on the way out. (Since he would know his own giant robot had them, it would be a reasonable deduction that the prototype might, even if he didn't know it for sure.) I doubt the story team really thought of that, but it does make sense, apparently.

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I remember in Journey's End, Mata Nui tells Raanu that he feels Makuta coming closer. And that was the night before the robot was assembled.

 

So, when Makuta was coming, the robot didn't exist. He just wanted to squash the Ignika right under his foot to make sure all threats were eliminated.

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But why could his sensors not detect the other bot from Aqua Magna?

That part of Aqua Magna was pointed away from Bara Magna, into a locked orbit like our moon. That's why Bara and Bota Magna were never seen in the sky of Mata Nui island, etc. He probably did sense the robot as he approached, but we don't know the range of it, etc. I think he probably just scanned for the Ignika and zeroed in on that, noticing the bot when it was too late to hide (and he wouldn't have wanted to hide in that situation anyways; he wanted Mata Nui dead, and for all he would know, giving him more time might only let Mata Nui get stronger in the prototype).

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I believe Greg said that Bota and Aqua Magna aren't real moons, they are just calls moons.

 

I remember asking Greg about it.

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I believe Greg said that Bota and Aqua Magna aren't real moons, they are just calls moons.

 

I remember asking Greg about it.

Did you post this in the wrong topic? What do you mean?

 

They are obviously products of the Shattering; I presume that's what he would be referring to. Not sure why it's relevant here, though. :P

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"That part of Aqua Magna was pointed away from Bara Magna, into a locked orbit like our moon."

 

Aqua and Bota Magna did not rotate around Bara Magna, so they are not moons, they had their own orbit around Solis Magna. They are their own planet.

 

I hate how stuff like the Mata Nui Saga keeps calling them moons.

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I think they were moons in the sense that they orbited Bara Magna for 100,000 years. The Greg Dialogues refer to them as moons at multiple points, and one post says Greg confirmed it - but without quoting him. 

 

EDIT: Never mind...

 

2) I have not watched the clips, so I cannot speak to them. But yes, Aqua and Bota are moons of Bara, that has been confirmed as of this morning.

 

The thing is, though, even if Teridax thought that there was no robot, he sounded that he planned to destroy that planet (Bara Magna) anyway...but I suppose that could be a misread on my part. The fact that there was a robot would actually make such destruction less desirable, not more. (Fighting on a planet = easier than fighting in space.)

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"That part of Aqua Magna was pointed away from Bara Magna, into a locked orbit like our moon."

 

Aqua and Bota Magna did not rotate around Bara Magna, so they are not moons, they had their own orbit around Solis Magna. They are their own planet.

 

I hate how stuff like the Mata Nui Saga keeps calling them moons.

 

Eh, they're called moons plenty of times. Actually, I think they were called moons every time they were described in story. Raid on Vulcanus has Gelu's line "Agori, you've been in danger since before Bara Magna had moons", the Mata Nui Saga calls them "the jungle moon" and ocean moon, and I think Journey's End calls them that, too, though I can't be certain.

 

Additionally, I don't think it was ever confirmed that they orbited Solis Magna. Where did you hear that?

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I remember it from the LMB.

 

Also, Venus is called the Morning/Evening star, and it's a planet. 

 

I'll re-ask Greg.

 

I'll also try to find the old quotes.

 

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Aqua and Bota Magna did not rotate around Bara Magna

I'm pretty sure they did, but either way, Greg confirmed that side of AM was always aimed away from Bara, so the answer is the same that Teridax shouldn't have been able to detect prototype until he was in orbit (unless scanners being used for that could go through a planet... which I suppose is possible).

 

 

Here's the quote you're talking about.

Were AM and BotaM moons of BM? As in, they revolved around the planet?

I don't think so, no

This is still pretty unclear, but I see you've asked him again for a clearer answer. We'll see what he says yeah?

 

This gives me an idea for a theory... but I'll wait for now. :P Most likely it's just Greg's lack of understanding of basic physics striking again, but we'll see lol.

 

even if Teridax thought that there was no robot, he sounded that he planned to destroy that planet (Bara Magna) anyway...but I suppose that could be a misread on my part.

I've been presuming that it was the only sure way to safely destroy the Ignika without the unleashed energy affecting the MU, so it would make sense. Not sure if confirmed though offhand.

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even if Teridax thought that there was no robot, he sounded that he planned to destroy that planet (Bara Magna) anyway...but I suppose that could be a misread on my part.

I've been presuming that it was the only sure way to safely destroy the Ignika without the unleashed energy affecting the MU, so it would make sense. Not sure if confirmed though offhand.

 

 

I don't think so. As long as it was outside of the MU, it would not destroy all life within it, and Teridax would be fine. here's a bit from Teridax's thoughts in RoS:

 

Though far away, it was still a part of this body, and Makuta knew he could find it again. He could track it down, no matter where, and extinguish any flickers of hope that Mata Nui might be feeling. The mask and all its powers were a dust mote in Makuta’s eyes now, and he would prove it by crushing it to powder with his armored heel.

 

 

Notice he doesn't say he'll blow up the planet, he says he will physically crush the thing himself. He could be thinking metaphorically here, but i doubt it.

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"That part of Aqua Magna was pointed away from Bara Magna, into a locked orbit like our moon."

 

Aqua and Bota Magna did not rotate around Bara Magna, so they are not moons, they had their own orbit around Solis Magna. They are their own planet.

 

I hate how stuff like the Mata Nui Saga keeps calling them moons.

 

Eh, they're called moons plenty of times. Actually, I think they were called moons every time they were described in story. Raid on Vulcanus has Gelu's line "Agori, you've been in danger since before Bara Magna had moons", the Mata Nui Saga calls them "the jungle moon" and ocean moon, and I think Journey's End calls them that, too, though I can't be certain.

 

Additionally, I don't think it was ever confirmed that they orbited Solis Magna. Where did you hear that?

 

2. Does Bara Magna orbit a star?

2) Yes

 

When asked if the sun Spherus Magna orbits had a name, Greg called it "Solis Magna." Solis coming from the word Sol, meaning sun.

 

Also, on the moon thing: 

3.) I have a theory on why the Matoran never saw Bara Magna in the sky when on Mata Nui and Voya Nui, I was just wondering if you could tell me if this was correct. I know the real reason is that Lego had not thought of Bara Magna then, but it would be nice to have a storyline reason. Basically it is that Aqua magna has a simmlar spin to our moon in that its spin and orbit are at just the right speed such that only one side of it ever faces us (or in this case Bara Magna). this way if Mata Nui crashed on the side facing away from Bara Magna (which he most likely would have seeing as he was headed towards the planet, not away from it) the Matoran on the island of Mata Nui and those on Voya Nui would never see Bara Magna in the sky as they would be facing away from it. The rotation of the moon around the planet would also have to be about 1 Matoran day for a complete rotation, to simulate the correct day and night cycle by going in front of the planet into the light and behind the planet into the dark. Would you say that this is correct?

 

 

3) Makes sense to me.

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Notice he doesn't say he'll blow up the planet, he says he will physically crush the thing himself. He could be thinking metaphorically here, but i doubt it.

Yeah, that's almost certainly "waxing poetic." Having the bottom of his foot turn alive could prove very bad. :P

 

Also, a black hole does the opposite of blowing up a planet... That was my whole point; if even light can't escape, then it's logical to think the energies of life probably couldn't either. Of course, he'd have to time his own early escape right. :P

 

He could probably pinpoint it and blast it with a laser, and that might have been his original intention, but once it was protected inside the prototype giant, I think that wouldn't work. :shrugs: Also, how would he know a large part of a planet turned alive wouldn't be a threat to him? Black hole seems the cleanest, safest strategy, so that's my thinking on why he probably planned it earlier. Dunno though.

 

 

 

Further point on the moon thing (keep in mind that right now Greg might have entirely forgotten about that) -- if it had its own planetary orbit, in order to keep one side always facing away, how would AM be able to rotate reasonably with respect to the sun? Not sure Greg is thinking this through, yanno? I think it would come out to one day = roughly one year if that was the case (on Mata Nui Island, Voya Nui, and Mahri Nui), which aside from not fitting any story portrayal, would bake them dead during the day and freeze them to death at night. Much simpler if they turned into moons. Then AM only needs to spin around Bara Magna once per day, a much more reasonable span of time (since Greg confirmed years are Earth years).

 

(This would depend on how fast it orbits the sun compared to Bara's rotation, but a super-short year would require a close solar orbit and that would probably bake them too. And... since the story sources call them moons... why not just have them be moons?)

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Okay, well here's a very stupid mistake on Makuta's behalf: underestimating Mata Nui. Makuta thought it would be a great idea to jettison his worst enemy out into space and go off to crush him later on. It's almost as if he wanted to let Mata Nui have a chance to organise a resistance. I understand that the MU robot was damaged, and Makuta needed time to get it fully operational again, but I don't get why he waited months to go after Mata Nui. Why did he shoot him into space in the first place? Why didn't he just hold onto the mask until his death lasers came online, then destroy it then and there? It would have saved his life.

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Okay, well here's a very stupid mistake on Makuta's behalf: underestimating Mata Nui. Makuta thought it would be a great idea to jettison his worst enemy out into space and go off to crush him later on. It's almost as if he wanted to let Mata Nui have a chance to organise a resistance. I understand that the MU robot was damaged, and Makuta needed time to get it fully operational again, but I don't get why he waited months to go after Mata Nui. Why did he shoot him into space in the first place? Why didn't he just hold onto the mask until his death lasers came online, then destroy it then and there? It would have saved his life.

If I remember correctly, it was because the mask couldn't be destroyed within the Matoran Universe or anywhere near it. Teridax needed to get rid of it and Mata Nui, so he just put them together and hurled the problem out into space. He wasn't really wrong to assume that the mask would eventually just burn up or something. According to Journey's End, Teridax was surprised to discover that the mask was still intact and safe on Bara Magna after he'd finished crushing any resistance in his body. What were the chances Mata Nui would land on his planet of origin where a prototype robot was available that could fight Teridax?

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"That part of Aqua Magna was pointed away from Bara Magna, into a locked orbit like our moon."

 

Aqua and Bota Magna did not rotate around Bara Magna, so they are not moons, they had their own orbit around Solis Magna. They are their own planet.

 

I hate how stuff like the Mata Nui Saga keeps calling them moons.

 

Eh, they're called moons plenty of times. Actually, I think they were called moons every time they were described in story. Raid on Vulcanus has Gelu's line "Agori, you've been in danger since before Bara Magna had moons", the Mata Nui Saga calls them "the jungle moon" and ocean moon, and I think Journey's End calls them that, too, though I can't be certain.

 

Additionally, I don't think it was ever confirmed that they orbited Solis Magna. Where did you hear that?

 

2. Does Bara Magna orbit a star?

2) Yes

 

When asked if the sun Spherus Magna orbits had a name, Greg called it "Solis Magna." Solis coming from the word Sol, meaning sun.

 

 

No, no, no. I know about Solis Magna being the star in Spherus Magna's system. Do you take me for someone who doesn't compulsively read BS01 most every day? :P

 

My concern was about Boidoh's claim that Bota Magna and Aqua Magna both orbited Solis Magna on their own, making them separate planets, and not moons of Bara Magna. I've never heard that before, and I'm extremely skeptical, considering that they've always been called moons everywhere else.

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Wasn't the whole point of the Unity/Duty/Destiny symbol being a map of sorts that it specifically showed Bara Magna in the center and its two orbiting pieces? You'd need an awfully specific orbit to make that arrangement stay for long if they were orbiting the sun without orbiting the planet.

 

If I remember correctly, it was because the mask couldn't be destroyed within the Matoran Universe or anywhere near it. Teridax needed to get rid of it and Mata Nui, so he just put them together and hurled the problem out into space.

This is correct. The Ignika was likely to trigger the MU kill-switch once Makuta disturbed its workings, and he didn't really need its powers for anything anymore. Presumably it would also be hard for him to target Mata Nui's soul directly in order to destroy it, so trapping it in the mask and sending it off to burn up in a star somewhere was actually a very good plan. What's surprising is that he chose to word his later attack as "crushing it", because that would likely cause a dangerous explosion of life energy, precisely the kind of thing he wanted to move as far away from himself as possible.

 

He wasn't really wrong to assume that the mask would eventually just burn up or something. According to Journey's End, Teridax was surprised to discover that the mask was still intact and safe on Bara Magna after he'd finished crushing any resistance in his body. What were the chances Mata Nui would land on his planet of origin where a prototype robot was available that could fight Teridax?

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Everyone said I was crazy, they said I was mad, INSANE; just like my idol Vezon.

 

BUT I KNEW!

 

https://community.lego.com/t5/LEGO-General/Chat-with-Greg-Farshtey/m-p/10897535/highlight/true#M248601

Greg is officially as insane as Vezon...

 

Every visual depiction shows them as moons.

Every line of dialogue AND NARRATION refers to them as moons.

Basic physics (although Greg doesn't care bout this one) demands that they be moons.

Greg's explanation about us only seeing one side of each fragment (while not making much sense) only works if they are moons.

 

This is as big a retcon as him saying "Mata Nui never left the planet" 

It just makes no sense.

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No they don't.

If I recall in the Mata Nui saga, it calls Aqua Magna the 'ocean world'.

Real life physics don't apply in BIONICLE.

Wasn't that just some fan theory? He said it makes sense. I could say the Big Bang Theory makes sense, but it still may not be true.

 

No it isn't.

Yes it does.

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Everyone said I was crazy, they said I was mad, INSANE; just like my idol Vezon.

 

BUT I KNEW!

 

https://community.lego.com/t5/LEGO-General/Chat-with-Greg-Farshtey/m-p/10897535/highlight/true#M248601

Greg is officially as insane as Vezon...

 

Every visual depiction shows them as moons.

Every line of dialogue AND NARRATION refers to them as moons.

Basic physics (although Greg doesn't care bout this one) demands that they be moons.

Greg's explanation about us only seeing one side of each fragment (while not making much sense) only works if they are moons.

 

This is as big a retcon as him saying "Mata Nui never left the planet" 

It just makes no sense.

 

 

No they don't.

If I recall in the Mata Nui saga, it calls Aqua Magna the 'ocean world'.

Real life physics don't apply in BIONICLE.

Wasn't that just some fan theory? He said it makes sense. I could say the Big Bang Theory makes sense, but it still may not be true.

 

No it isn't.

Yes it does.

1.  All of their depictions show them to be very close to Bara Magna.  Given that 2009-2010 takes place over a longer period of time than the other years, and includes many flashbacks, it is hard to believe that we coincidentally only get to see the moments where all three planets are close to each other, in the shape of the symbol of the three virtues.  It is far more believable that they are moons, and are always that close.

2.  To quote Wikipedia:

 

 

By extension, a 'world' may refer to any planet or heavenly body, especially when it is thought of as inhabited, especially in the context of science fiction or futurology.

I don't think that was a reference to it's orbit, as a moon is considered  heavenly body.  I think Reign of Shadows may have called it a "planet of endless ocean", but remember, Teridax didn't know about The Shattering when he said that.

 

3.  I acknowledge that real-life physics don't always apply.  I included that one as a joke.  I even said in parentheses that Greg doesn't care about real-life physics.

4.  That wasn't a fan theory.  He came up with that to appease fans who were questioning how .  

 

I apologize, that was a bit of overreacting.  My point was that this retcon changed our entire understanding of the nature of The Shattering, and our understanding of the symbol of the three virtues.  (see below for more on that)

A more accurate analogy would be that this is as silly as him saying that the Matoran DIDN'T gain sapience on their own, but that Velika gave it to them...

Oh, wait... he did do that, didn't he...

Well, how about "this is as silly changing the nature of Tahu's kraata powers by making him dependent on the Golden Armor" that would be really bad...

Oh, wait... he did that too...

Besides, their is no reason to retcon this.  The above retcons, regardless of whether or not we like them (I actually DO like the first one), make sense.  He gave reasons for these retcons.   One was suggested by a fan, and one was an attempt to balance out Tahu's power (even if it wasn't necessary).  This retcon has no purpose.

 

If they are separate planets and not moons, the symbol of the three virtues that they make from space would be a very rare occurrence.  Given that the symbol was supposed to remind Mata Nui of his quest (which wouldn't work if fragments rarely looked like that), and the fact that we see the symbol every time we see the remains of the planet, I can safely say that them being planets makes no sense.  

 

 

And before any one else says this:

Bionicle is a very long and complicated storyline, and there is bound to be a few mistakes scattered throughout. Sometimes, characters will make poor choices, leading to events that could have easily been avoided. What do you think some of them are?

 

To get back on topic, we missed the biggest character mistake of all.

 

Two "cool dudes" (take that censor, I'm censoring myself!) N.S.M.8 and Biodoh, are wasting their time holding an off topic argument and getting defensive about something that, let's face it, isn't remotely important.  These two are wasting time nitpicking something that doesn't affect our enjoyment of Bionicle.

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They may be close in whatever picture you saw, but if Teridax takes about a day or so to travel from Aqua Magna to Bara Magna, it sure isn't close. Plus, it might just be that they formed their orbit around Solis Magna very close to the orbit of Bara Magna's.

 

2. It also said planet.

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Well, I guess I can't argue with Greg. I can still try to salvage the UDD symbol, though. What if that symbol wasn't supposed to represent the orbital path of Bota Magna and Aqua Magna around Bara Magna -- what if it was meant to represent the three shards arriving at a point of alignment -- the optimal point of alignment for Mata Nui to reform them and complete his mission?

 

That... actually makes the UDD symbol even cooler, in my opinion. It wasn't just a reminder of "hey, these are the shards you need to fix sometime", it was a diagram of "the clock is ticking; they'll be aligned like this just once in the next 100,000 years, don't forget". It lends the symbol a great deal of urgency and gravitas.

 

Alright. I can work with that. :)

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Okay, since this topic is about character mistakes, I'll put all the on-topic stuff first. :P

 

Okay, well here's a very stupid mistake on Makuta's behalf: underestimating Mata Nui. Makuta thought it would be a great idea to jettison his worst enemy out into space and go off to crush him later on.

Clearly he had no choice. The Great Beings aren't likely to design the Great Spirit to be easily deleted; Makuta obviously had to move him into the Ignika to get him out of the Core Processor.

 

Once that was done, he couldn't safely destroy the Ignika inside, so he had to jettison him. True, it's only a theory that he had to put him in the Ignika in the first place, but this is how stories are best understood; take the actions and the most likely theory. It doesn't make sense to presume a mistake on Teridax's part here, although one is possible. To assume it's a mistake is illogical.

 

Besides, the Ignika would remain super-dangerous for him anyway, so jettisoning it alone would seem to be a necessity.

 

Then, could he destroy it while it was in space?

 

Maybe, with a distant laser blast, but how does he know that energy won't eventually reach him? I think letting it land on another planet/moon/'tever would be best, then black-hole-ifying that body, as explained above. Inside a black hole, all forms of matter and energy are crushed into raw energy. Presumably the black hole wouldn't remain permanent; it should rapidly "evaporate" like Nuvhok-Kal's black hole, but it would just emit raw energy then, not life energy (I'd think). Voila, both problems dealt with.

 

It's almost as if he wanted to let Mata Nui have a chance to organise a resistance. I understand that the MU robot was damaged, and Makuta needed time to get it fully operational again, but I don't get why he waited months to go after Mata Nui.

As I think I said earlier, he wanted to be cautious and take the time to stifle dissent (via murder) inside him. Think about it -- he, a "little guy" inside this very giant, just defeated its Great Spirit and took it over. Now he's the Great Spirit with LOTS of dissenters inside. You don't think he'd take the time to keep his focus inside and try to clear out most of those? Especially the other Makuta, who would be most likely to know how.

 

True, he didn't kill all of them, but he probably did whittle the numbers of the serious dissenters down a lot (mostly characters we don't know, probably).

 

Why did he shoot him into space in the first place? Why didn't he just hold onto the mask until his death lasers came online, then destroy it then and there? It would have saved his life.

See above. (And I'm confused on your wording here -- do you mean hold onto it inside him? Or eject it later and laser it right away as it flies?)

 

Also, pretty sure the lasers were online right away.

 

 

What's surprising is that he chose to word his later attack as "crushing it"

Well, not if he planned "all along" to use a black hole attack. :P But crushing it beneath a heel, yes. But that's a normal "trash talk" figure of speech. I really wouldn't take that literally. It's like if a racecar driver tells another to "eat my dust" -- we all know it doesn't mean "Would you please open your mouth and ingest some dust I own?" It's meant to imply he's huge and it's little and he's not afraid of it.

 

 

 

 

Okay, moons stuff:

 

 

Wasn't the whole point of the Unity/Duty/Destiny symbol being a map of sorts that it specifically showed Bara Magna in the center and its two orbiting pieces? You'd need an awfully specific orbit to make that arrangement stay for long if they were orbiting the sun without orbiting the planet.

Yeah...

 

Another problem is they were ejected from the poles, so presumably Bota Magna is "north" of Bara Magna, not aligned along the same (equatorial) solar orbit path as Bara Magna. That means to have a stable orbit roughly corresponding to Bara Magna, its orbit would have to tilt and cross Bara Magna's orbit at two points. If they're the same distance from the sun, or close to it, that means CRASH.

 

That could be fixed with Spherus Magna having a tilt. Which is possible as it does have a Northern Frost. If the split happened when SM was at its "highest tilt" position (when the angle of tilt is farthest away from perpendicular to the line between the planet and sun along its solar orbit), either away or toward, Bota and Aqua could have closer and farther orbits respectively, and their twice-annual overlapping orbits (with respect to the sun's "equator" -- as defined as the plane of Bara's orbit anyways) would be far enough in and out to avoid smashing into Bara.

 

The dust cloud of the symbol would then have to be WAY bigger than we've thought. That's possible. Combined with the idea that its odd shape is a result of dust particle orbits around Bara Magna being disturbed either by its magnetic field or gravity between the three bodies, this is still possible, but the gravity option starts to look rather silly, as you'd think it would be a much more complex shape.

 

The increased distance would be needed because if they were close (like the TLR portrayal, but that already needs to be taken with salt because they show even Aqua as a potato-body, which makes no sense as it's covered in water; it has to be a sphere), eventually the force of being blasted away should be overcome by Bara's gravity and they should start falling toward it.

 

This is also why we all assumed that any sensible author would make them moons, because an orbit is exactly how you fix that problem.

 

Buuuuuuut, I suppose by a highly unlikely set of coincidences it's maybe possible all the forces could be balanced just right where they get far enough away to where the gravity isn't overcome, but does slow away their retreat enough that they don't shrink entirely out of view over 100,000 years and just orbit something like Mars and Earth both orbit one sun.

 

There's still a problem with this, though -- if one's orbit is smaller than the other two, wouldn't it start getting ahead of them, and no longer look like a moon at all? Mars doesn't orbit the sun at the same distance to the Earth all the time. One catches up to the other and then leaves it behind, and at times we're on opposite sides of the sun.

 

Having them be moons solves ALL these problems.

 

 

 

Al that said, here's my theory from before: Maybe the problems AREN'T solved, and after 100,000 years, Aqua and Bota are getting slowly dragged closer again?

 

Meaning if Mata Nui doesn't fuse them soon... BOOM???? That would make sense of everything we'd been told, I thiiiink.... >_>

 

 

Exceeeeeept... how this conversation apparently started...
 

Greg's explanation about us only seeing one side of each fragment (while not making much sense) only works if they are moons.

Yeah, that one is very hard to explain.

 

Maybe they have a super-fast orbit lol?

 

Considering they're so massive, I suppose that's possible. They might need one to avoid falling into the star at the distance they're portrayed. I did think of this earlier but wanted to wait to see what Greg would say here too.

 

Or maybe their poles aren't lined up like Earth's at all. That would throw all this logic off. I'd have to think about that... Actually, come to think of it, one tidbit that can work with this is that since AM came off an SM pole, apparently, its lack of spin with respect to Bara might make sense. If it came off an equator it should have it. But off a pole? That should set up Aqua to have an aligned pole with Bara. Ah, but if their orbits duck under for half the year, you should still see Bara... so no... Never mind...

 

Real life physics don't apply in BIONICLE.

Here's the problem -- this is not a matter of physics like "this chemical does this" such that a world of protodermis would behave differently. This is just basic geometry and gravity. Sadly, lots of sci-fi shows ignore even this, but that doesn't mean it's wise to ignore it, and what benefit is there to doing so?

 

It all works if you just shut your brain off, but until now, everything else I've ever encountered in Bionicle can make sense if you do think about it for fun. If indeed this proves to be unable to reconcile with logic, I think it leaves the territory of "not real life physics" and becomes "pointlessly contradictory" since he's confirmed so much else of these parts is normal matter, normal physics.

 

Of course, it could still be fixed with a modification of an appeal to some kind of energy field in the core rocks as a result of their transformation by EP doing whatever it takes to keep it all working... and since he recently used another physics blunder (that time appealing TO real-world physics, creating a contradiction with saying larger planet equals more intense gravity and all the Earth-gravity in-story portrayals) to make the main purpose of that theory not work canonically (absorbing any excess gravity over Earth level), maybe this could be adapted to explain away all this new mess. So I'm kiiinda not too unhappy.

 

The problem is it seems like recently Greg is just answering things that should be better left to fans' imaginations that have no in-story importance, when he normally avoids that, and that's creating these contradictions, apparently for no reason. So I wouldn't doubt if he soon contradicts even this option if things keep going this way. And at some point "Bionicle takes work to understand" and "I don't understand physics but I'll add answers I didn't need to add that make a mess of it so bad that you HAVE to shut your brain off to be okay with it" start to REALLY become at odds. Why not just give an "I don't know" answer to both of these and avoid the issue?

 

I'd like to know what the point of not calling them actual moons is, in short. It worked just fine if they were moons. Why not?

 

 

Edit:

 

If they are separate planets and not moons, the symbol of the three virtues that they make from space would be a very rare occurrence.  Given that the symbol was supposed to remind Mata Nui of his quest (which wouldn't work if fragments rarely looked like that), and the fact that we see the symbol every time we see the remains of the planet, I can safely say that them being planets makes no sense.

Please note that in all of the above, I'm assuming they're always in the symbol formation. But yes, as separate planets it would be hard to justify them always staying in that, so what you say here is reasonable. I wouldn't go so far as "no" sense yet... this will require careful thought... I'm not sure. I AM sure that having them be moons EASILY explained that formation and gave no other problems.

 

I hate to say that maybe one of us should lecture Greg on the LMB about this... I'm sure he wouldn't react well to it. Sometimes when somebody lays out a clear physics reason for something he does say "that makes sense" and goes with it, but I'm not sure where he's coming from on this. He'll most likely just appeal to "real life physics doesn't apply", which normally I agree with him on. :P But he himself has confirmed they do apply in all the apparently relevant ways here, so this is just bizarre. He confirmed normal gravity relationships, he confirmed Solis is a normal star, and he said they're all made of normal matter. And he resisted my idea (but to be fair, maybe it wasn't explained clearly enough to him; I haven't bothered to post there myself) of an idea to go beyond real-world physics on the gravity problem, just appealing to "comic-book physics", which mine actually was and his answer wasn't...

 

Okay end rant. :P I don't really mind any of this. It's actually a kind of fun mess to try to think about LOL. Still... bad idea methinks.

 

 

These two are wasting time nitpicking something that doesn't affect our enjoyment of Bionicle.

This is tangential to this topic, and we might want to start another, however, it can affect enjoyment to insert random nonsensical, apparently pointless misunderstandings of physics into a story!

 

Anyways... character mistakes. Tahu too tempermental. There.

 

 

Well, I guess I can't argue with Greg. I can still try to salvage the UDD symbol, though. What if that symbol wasn't supposed to represent the orbital path of Bota Magna and Aqua Magna around Bara Magna -- what if it was meant to represent the three shards arriving at a point of alignment -- the optimal point of alignment for Mata Nui to reform them and complete his mission?

I like. That could help justify a lot of this. But probably not the Aqua-lock thing.

 

Maybe somebody should show him his old quote about that lock, point out that retconning it could have serious consequences on story logic (now the islanders of Mata Nui WOULD likely see Bara Magna sometimes, and sometimes up close maybe), and ask if he forgot about this, along with asking why having them be moons wouldn't be better?

 

Also, if they aren't normally aligned with it, why would the culture of Bara Magna call them moons?

Edited by bonesiii
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I'd like to know what the point of not calling them actual moons is, in short. It worked just fine if they were moons. Why not?

 

Really, that is my main issue with all of this. Why was it a question worth asking in the first place?

 

(Copied from my rant on Boidoh's BS01 page)

 

 

Boidoh, I appreciate the work you're doing with Greg, but it seems like a lot of the time, your end goal is to extort answers from Greg that you want to hear; would it be possible to change tactics, and focus on just asking him a question and waiting to see his response? You pestered the poor man half to death on Lehvak-Kal, and while it did end in a triumph of logic and physics over Greg's longstanding apathy, it kinda leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

If you're going to ask about matters that are noticeably disputed, such as the moons thing, I think the only ethical thing to do is to present both sides of the argument reasonably and rationally. You could have asked, "When separated from Bara Magna, did Aqua Magna and Bota Magna orbit Solis Magna as their own planetoids, or did they orbit Bara Magna as moons? Many sources in canon describe them as moons of Bara Magna, but I think that could be poetic license. Would you mind confirming for me whether they were moons or planets?"

That way, Greg would have seen the arguments from both sides and been reminded that canon had previously referred to them as moons, and he could have taken that into account in his answer. If he were really convinced that Bota Magna and Aqua Magna should have their own orbits around Solis Magna, he would have specified that, but if he were unsure or simply forgetful, he would have been reminded of the canon specification and been able to fall back on that. You see what I'm saying?

In fact, I think the best thing to do would be to ask the question over again, and this time, mention that canon always calls them moons. "In two previous answers, you said that Bota Magna and Aqua Magna were separate planets from Bara Magna, and orbited Solis Magna on their own. However, others have reminded me that many canon sources refer to them as moons of Bara Magna. I think that could be poetic license, but what do you think?"

Would you mind doing that? Fessing up and presenting the other side of the argument so Greg can consider it would bring a peaceful end to this whole mess, and I think it would clear your reputation on both BS01 and BZP.

:)

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Once I was curious if the moons had moons, then Greg told me that they didn't orbit BM.

 

 

Then this happened.

 

 

On this case it is not really extorting answers. With Lehvak-Kal, that was days of torture, with this Greg simply answered ONE question from me without elaborating more. AND, it was good as confirmed weeks ago when I asked Greg if BM and AM orbited BM. So I don't see how this can be compared to what I did with Lehvak-Kal.

 

 Boidoh wrote:

A while back I asked you if Bota/Aqua Magna revolved around Bara Magna and you said no. Does this mean that they had their own orbit around Solis Magna?
Yes
 
See? Simple.
 
I already made some follow up questions from before this extorted into a big argument asking him if they are only CALLED moons such as Venus being called the Morning Star. 
I guess I'll ask that, but one question. The way you say 'clear my reputation', does this mean that on BZP and BS01 I'm practically hated for ruining all they thought they knew about BIONICLE?
Edited by Boidoh

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*agrees with Yalda*

 

Basically, don't trick forgetful authors. :P It just creates discord in the fandom and can risk needless contradictions.

 

BTW, since it can be confusing to use just words to talk about this, I made some diagrams to explain the problems. Keep in mind "not real physics" isn't a good answer to most of this as this is mostly geometry and basic "something is moving this way, and gets pulled that way" math. If that stuff doesn't apply, then punching a Toa shouldn't need to hurt, etc. All this uses is basic physics which Bionicle has always used, like "overheating is bad" stuff.

 

But since this is off-topic here, and IS about a Greg answer, I'm posting it in the Compendium, not here. Let's take this conversation over there, yeah?

 

Compendium post:

 

http://www.bzpower.com/board/topic/11221-official-greg-compendium/page-9?do=findComment&comment=722555

Edited by bonesiii

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I know we moved the moon discussion to the Greg topic, but I think that this belongs here. I do have something on topic afterwards as well.

 

(Copied from my rant on Boidoh's BS01 page)

 

 

Boidoh, I appreciate the work you're doing with Greg, but it seems like a lot of the time, your end goal is to extort answers from Greg that you want to hear; would it be possible to change tactics, and focus on just asking him a question and waiting to see his response? You pestered the poor man half to death on Lehvak-Kal, and while it did end in a triumph of logic and physics over Greg's longstanding apathy, it kinda leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

UNIMPORTANT PARTS TRIMMED
 

Would you mind doing that? Fessing up and presenting the other side of the argument so Greg can consider it would bring a peaceful end to this whole mess, and I think it would clear your reputation on both BS01 and BZP.

:)

 

... Ouch, that was a bit harsh.  He was just trying to clear up a misunderstanding with the moons.  With Lehvak-Kal, fans were pestering him back in 2011 and 2012 a lot, but we never got a good answer.  A lot of people were happy to see that cleared up.

 

*agrees with Yalda*

Basically, don't trick forgetful authors.  :P It just creates discord in the fandom and can risk needless contradictions.

*Facepalm*
You're technically right, but, again, that's not what he was trying to do.
 

 

The way you say 'clear my reputation', does this mean that on BZP and BS01 I'm practically hated for ruining all they thought they knew about BIONICLE?

 

No one hates you.  We really do appreciate what you are trying to do, even if we have a funny way of showing it.  

 

 

Now back on topic.
 

 

These two are wasting time nitpicking something that doesn't affect our enjoyment of Bionicle.

This is tangential to this topic, and we might want to start another, however, it can affect enjoyment to insert random nonsensical, apparently pointless misunderstandings of physics into a story!

 

Anyways... character mistakes. Tahu too tempermental. There.

 

 

 

I know this was said as a bit of a joke and that Tahu WAS too temperamental, but I always feel the need to defend Tahu, as he isn't very well liked.  I think this is due to C. A. Hapka's poor treatment of the character.

Question: Did his temper really cause any problems?  

Answer: Let's think about this...

  1. Tahu gets mad when he wakes up and can't swing his sword.  EFFECT:  Tahu put's on the mask, and can now use his sword and his fire.
  2. Tahu almost attacks the Ta-Koro guard.  Can you really blame him?  EFFECT:  Vakama saves everyone.
  3. Tahu gets mad because Kopaka and Lewa want to seach for the masks alone.  EFFECT:  Tahu broods in Ta-Koro, and the other Toa eventually follow his plan anyway.
  4. Tahu broods in Ta-Koro because he is mad at Kopaka.  EFFECT:  Jala tells him about the mask in Onu-Koro.
  5. Out of anger, Tahu attacks Kofu-Jaga with fire (if you don't remember, fire mkes them stronger).  EFFECT:  He comes up with a better plan, and emerges victorious.  
  6. Tahu is upset that the Toa are going to get HIS Miru without him.  EFFECT:  He get's over it.
  7. Tahu burns down a tree and the fire spreads.  EFFECT:  Gali puts out the fire and gets mad at him, but they make up off screen.
  8. Tahu get's mad at Kopaka for not telling the others about the Toa Kaita.  EFFECT:  Gali calms him down.

That's just year one, but the pattern continues:  Tahu does something rash, nothing really goes wrong.  For example:  
Tahu tries to fight Zaktan without his powers after the other Toa have fallen.  EFFECT: The Toa are captured, stripped of their masks and tools, and sent to be killed. They escape.

There ARE two exceptions that I can think of, but neither were his fault:

  1. His mind is poisoned by two Rahkshi, and he attacks his team.  Gali, Lewa, and Kopaka save him.
  2. Tahu leads his team and the Voya Nui resistance into a trap where they are all defeated by Brutaka.  Let's be honest, their was NO WAY to see that coming.

 

So yes, he was too temperamental, but it didn't really cause any problems.  Besides, most of the time he was angry because he was making the right decision, but the others wouldn't follow it.  

Edited by N.S.M.8
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I thought Boidoh had said somewhere that that was his approach, basically. Maybe I'm confusing him with someone else. >_< Anywho...

 

 

What I was thinking of with Tahu was that it fed into the choice early in the story to have the team split up and not emphasize Unity despite some of the team warning it was a bad idea. That delayed their effectiveness in collecting the masks. No, it didn't lead to anything huge that was bad, but it was emphasized as a bad choice in the early story, something he had to learn to improve on. :)

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The Destiny of Bionicle (chronological retelling of Bionicle original series, 9 PDFs of 10 chapters each on Google Drive)Part 1 - Warring with Fate | Part 2 - Year of Change | Part 3 - The Exploration Trap | Part 4 - Rise of the Warlords | Part 5 - A Busy Matoran | Part 6 - The Dark Time | Part 7 - Proving Grounds | Part 8 - A Rude Awakening | Part 9 - The Battle of Giants

My Bionicle Fanfiction  (Google Drive folder, eventually planned to have PDFs of all of it)

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Oh Greg how fast you ruin our dreams.

 YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES

 

GREG CONFIRMED LEHVAK-KAL IS IN ORBIT!!!!

 

1) He is in orbit over the planet, his orbit will decay eventually, and he will burn up.

 

 

Forcing this out of him did pay off.

You were probably referring to the last line of this, but it seems to refer to forcing an answer not forcing a specific one.

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http://www.bzpower.com/board/topic/19274-murder-mansion/?do=findComment&comment=964351

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The one that got me recently was more of a story convienence: In Bionicle 2/the Toa Metru story, they are all wondering what their mask powers are. Vakama IS a mask maker, so he should be able to identify the masks they have and what powers they have. Thus the quest can be how to activate their mask powers, not what they are.

 

But it would kinda take out the adventure from the movie/story. 


audio_narration_project_banner_wide.jpg

 

Bionicle: ANP aims to create narrated versions of all the Bionicle books, with voice actors for each character, and music taken from various media to enhance the story. Check here if you're interested in voicing a character, and here for the chapters that've already been released!

Formerly: Tahu Nuva 3.0

Looking for a Bionicle Beanie. Black one with the symbol on it. Contact me if you are willing to sell

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