Where did Bionicle Go Wrong?

[Banana Gunz]

I've noticed how so many people seem to like Bionicle "up to a certain point". They got a wave that they didn't like and from there it they seem to hate all the waves that came after it. I've always thought that all of Bionicle had some good story telling and though definitely had its many mistakes, still manages to be pretty cool overall. But I've seen others tend to not share the same opinion.

 

So where did Bionicle go wrong for you? What year(s) did it go bad? Why/What was it in particular that you didn't like? How would you have liked it to go instead? Why am I asking you all these questions?

 

EDIT: Not sure if this fits in "Story-line and Theories" even though it does pertain to the story line, but it seems like it is more of a question about personal preferance. Would a staff please move this to the "Bionicle Discussions" page? Please? With a cherry on top?

Edited August 20, 2014 by Banana Gunz

[Boidoh]

It went wrong in the second half of 2010, when HF came.

[Pupwa21]

The Inika bulid.

[Axilus Prime]

2009. Poor execution kinda ruined it for me.

[Click]

2006 was kind of the year it started, but I really didn't start turning from Bionicle until 2008 when they kept using the same build and more and more stories I couldn't get at were being sold and posted all over the place. 2009, set on apparently a completely random planet (at the time) using the same building systems and with odd designs really kept me away. I really wish it was more like the first years with a charm and mystery to it rather than a seemingly random transition to a completely different place.

[Sumiki]

2009. Mainly it's because that year had the potential to be one of the best years of all time - after all, they had the chance to recapture the mysterious '01 aesthetic that hadn't been around since its last wisps were blown asunder in '03. With a rebooted storyline they had the same opportunities that they had with Hero Factory, but it was subsequently ruined by the inclusion of too much '01-'08 material.
 
Also those blasted alternate universes.

[Aanchir]

For me, 2010, when instead of wrapping up loose ends the serials began to continue somewhat aimlessly, even after the main story had concluded. But on the whole I pretty much enjoyed the main story from beginning to end — it's only those supplementary stories that ever particularly frustrated me.

 

As far as sets were concerned, I think that on average they kept very good quality. Some seem like rubbish in hindsight (Av-Matoran and Vahki in particular), but the quality of the other sets from those years made up for them.

[Jakura Nuva]

For me, 2010, when instead of wrapping up loose ends the serials began to continue somewhat aimlessly, even after the main story had concluded. But on the whole I pretty much enjoyed the main story from beginning to end — it's only those supplementary stories that ever particularly frustrated me.

 

As far as sets were concerned, I think that on average they kept very good quality. Some seem like rubbish in hindsight (Av-Matoran and Vahki in particular), but the quality of the other sets from those years made up for them.

 

Same here. 2010 could have been wrapped up better than it was.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Jakura Nuva

[bonesiii]

It never went "wrong", but it did go "not as wise in some choices so not as best as it could be". There's obviously gotta be thousands of ways that is so, as there usually will be in any creative work (so don't take them too seriously in general! -- the only sure way to avoid it is never be creative), but one that consistently stands out that most agree on is the later stories, after the first few serials, started to sacrifice story quality for trying to give running updates on every character just because we happened to know of them previously. That made almost everything feel rushed, and hard to follow.

 

There's various others. Several have been mentioned in recent topics, I don't feel like rehashing.

 

 

Edit: Oh, I guess re: your edit you're not just asking about story? Alright, moving. >_>

Edited August 20, 2014 by bonesiii

[Banana Gunz]

Thanks Bonesiii for moving (and replying)!

 

I agree somewhat with Bonesiii, Bionicle never went totally "wrong" for me (but for others it did) because it was an interesting and creative story with inspiration and style behind it. But as was mentioned sometimes it feels like its full potential was never reached, and there were too many mistakes made that gave the impression that some years were more like "concepts" of what it should've been. And things like exploration of characters and setting began to deplete in the later years. And it felt like we never spent enough time in one place to get to know it and feel its mystery.

 

But Bionicle can never be what we want it to be, unless we make it that through fan fictions, head canon, and just making Bionicle your story. Bionicle in itself was amazing and inspiring. It could've gone in so many directions but the one it chose was thought out, cool, and ambitious. 10 years is a rare privilege for LEGO themes, and Bionicle was lucky to even get one of those.

 

As for sets, most designs were unique and inspired at the beginning. Eventually, things went south a bit and became repetitive. But even the sets at the beginning that were not super well done, like the Vahki, were still different and really nice concepts. 

 

Bionicle started to lose its quality the most (to me) when 2006 rolled around and focused so heavily on story and ignition that it began to lack luster in other areas. It was still interesting and cool, but like I said, just not what it used to be because of the decisions made.

[fishers64]

It never really went wrong as "jumped off a cliff to an irrevocable doom argh I will never like this again." And there wasn't really a year where I rejected stuff and decided "this is not Bionicle anymore". I liked 2009 less than the others, and that was IMO a high concentration of mistakes there. 

 

I felt that 2010 redeemed a lot of the mistakes of 2009 while tripping in others, but in the end I liked the concept of Spherus Magna. It just took a couple of years to grow on me. And I like giant robot fights. And I liked the MLN campaign and Glatorian Arena and other stuff from 2009. I felt that 2009 was less likable, but not irredeemable.

[Matoro Zeliph]

I've noticed how so many people seem to like Bionicle "up to a certain point". They got a wave that they didn't like and from there it they seem to hate all the waves that came after it. I've always thought that all of Bionicle had some good story telling and though definitely had its many mistakes, still manages to be pretty cool overall. But I've seen others tend to not share the same opinion.

 

So where did Bionicle go wrong for you? What year(s) did it go bad? Why/What was it in particular that you didn't like? How would you have liked it to go instead? Why am I asking you all these questions?

 

EDIT: Not sure if this fits in "Story-line and Theories" even though it does pertain to the story line, but it seems like it is more of a question about personal preferance. Would a staff please move this to the "Bionicle Discussions" page? Please? With a cherry on top?

After my "favorite matoran" from 2001 had sacrificed himself for Mata Nui's revival, the story just dissipated for me from 2008 storyline and outward. It is not because my favorite character had been deceased (kinda), but it just doesn't make any sense why Bionicle should continue the way it does for 2008 and beyond.

 

I regretting in not following the 2008+ storyline back then. So I went back and tried re-reading the old comics and lore. However, there is some kind of disconnection that I truly don't understand in what happened in between 2007-2008 storyline, and I was wondering if someone could help me on this...I've posted something similar to this in a 'neighboring' Bionicle fan site (if you know what I'm talking about), but I want to provide my Q here due to BZP having a larger fan-base.

Alright...

 

 

Here is my interpretation...

In 2003, Takanuva had awoken Mata Nui from his slumber.

2006, the Turaga found out that Mata Nui is dying, and it is up to the Toa Inika to find the Mask of Life to save Mata Nui.

2007, Matoro revived Mata Nui, then hooray. Mata Nui is not only awoken, but alive. 

 

(This is the part I am having trouble grasping...)

In 2008, Mata Nui needs to be awaken from this slumber (again???) from the Toa Nuva...WAIT WHAT?!?!? I'm confused! Did I miss something, or misinterpret something??? 

Can someone explain to me why there had to be an "excuse" for the Bionicle (Mata Nui involved) storyline to be continued in 2008+?

[N.S.M.8]

 

 

Here is my interpretation...

In 2003, Takanuva had awoken Mata Nui from his slumber.

2006, the Turaga found out that Mata Nui is dying, and it is up to the Toa Inika to find the Mask of Life to save Mata Nui.

2007, Matoro revived Mata Nui, then hooray. Mata Nui is not only awoken, but alive. 

 

(This is the part I am having trouble grasping...)

In 2008, Mata Nui needs to be awaken from this slumber (again???) from the Toa Nuva...WAIT WHAT?!?!? I'm confused! Did I miss something, or misinterpret something??? 

Can someone explain to me why there had to be an "excuse" for the Bionicle (Mata Nui involved) storyline to be continued in 2008+?

 

 

Because he WASN'T awoken in 2003.  In the second epilogue to Time Trap (which takes place after Takanuva defeats the Makuta) the narrator says:

 

 

The first step had been taken toward awakening the Great Spirit Mata Nui and restoring balance to the universe.

[Matoro Zeliph]

Because he WASN'T awoken in 2003.  In the second epilogue to Time Trap (which takes place after Takanuva defeats the Makuta) the narrator says:

 

 

The first step had been taken toward awakening the Great Spirit Mata Nui and restoring balance to the universe.

 

 

Oh darn, I must've flew past that part. So let me get this straight, in 2003 Takanuva's duty to defeat Makuta was one of many To-Dos in order for Mata Nui to be awaken? But in 2006, the Turaga also found out that Mata Nui is dying? (Jeeze! I would figure that Nixie would point that out by now in 2001-2003).

 

So in 2006, not only he was still in "slumber-mode," but dying as well??? 

 

I thought the whole reason why the Toa Nuva was going around to various locations (Gali Nuva Blog 2006-2007) was to prepare for Mata Nui's 'true revival' as soon as he was restored to health from the Ignika. 

 

Great! This is getting confusing! Sorry being ignorant around this point of the story. I guess I can say now where Bionicle went wrong for me was trying to catch up with the extensive lore that LEGO kept added on and on throughout the years. You can much guessed that I got lost with the story after 2007. There needs to be some breathing room for the Bionicle universe to remain a mystery for us, so we could come up with our own ideas and thoughts. Idk. 

Edited August 20, 2014 by Matoro1992

[bonesiii]

I was wondering if someone could help me on this...I've posted something similar to this in a 'neighboring' Bionicle fan site (if you know what I'm talking about), but I want to provide my Q here due to BZP having a larger fan-base.

Alright...

 

 

Here is my interpretation...

In 2003, Takanuva had awoken Mata Nui from his slumber.

This was a false rumor that got started from the commentary of the movie producers of MoL. Apparently they actually thought that was what their movie was showing. This is definitely LEGO's fault, not yours or the fans, but the rumor still seems to have failed to die even after all this time, lol. It was never canon, and the movie itself shows nothing of the sort. All it shows is a scene of light from Takanuva lighting up the city glaring back through the "windows" of the gaps of that Hau statue that decorated the doorframe of what the Takutanuva fusion lifted, from the perspective of Makuta's lair (the side of the door they started on). The movie producers apparently thought that was meant to be symbolic of Mata Nui awakening.

 

If Mata Nui had been awake, he could not have been dying; it was his coma worsening after being asleep for so long that was putting his life in danger. And it was the Toa Mata/Nuva's destiny to awaken him, not Takanuva's.

 

(Of course, this gets confusing too later because "Toa" Ignika actually awakens him, but the Nuva made it happen.)

 

 

But in 2006, the Turaga also found out that Mata Nui is dying? (Jeeze! I would figure that Nixie would point that out by now in 2001-2003).

Nixie would have had no way to know this, as far as we've been told. Dume knew it as a result of the stars of Metru Nui's sky fading. Nixie only had the Red Star in the real sky to work with, and we still know next to nothing about how that worked. The fading Metru Nui sky was like a fading heartlight, or in real-world terms, a heart monitor going wrong. Nixie didn't have access to that.

 

I thought the whole reason why the Toa Nuva was going around to various locations (Gali Nuva Blog 2006-2007) was to prepare for Mata Nui's 'true revival' as soon as he was restored to health from the Ignika.

No, it was always made clear those were more steps in the process of awakening him. I'm not surprised you fell for that false rumor in 2003, but a little surprised it survived you watching the rest of the story. Did you miss the many times they said they were working on awakening him?

 

You mention the GNB, but the first two paragraphs of that serial state:

 

 

Since we have no Chronicler accompanying us on this, our most vital mission, I am taking time to record events for posterity. Tahu thinks this is a foolish waste of time, and I am sure Kopaka agrees with him (so rare to see those two agreeing!). But Onua understands, so does Pohatu. Maybe it's because fire and ice are both elements that are here one moment, gone the next, and rock and earth last on ... but Pohatu and Onua seem to have more respect for history.

 

After our rescue by the Matoran resistance on Voya Nui, I thought we would surely join the Toa Inika in seeking the Mask of Life. But Axonn and Botar took us aside and told us that the time had come to prepare the universe for the awakening of Mata Nui. If the Inika succeed in their mission, and save the Great Spirit's life, the time will be ripe for us to fulfill our mission – to awaken Mata Nui and restore light to the universe.

[Nato G]

This is entirely a question of personal opinion. It's hard to say that there was a single pivotal point where Bionicle "went wrong". A lot of people say 2006, but to me, that's where it started getting better. I liked the new set designs, and I loved the way they were reused so creatively in completely different ways in later years. 2006-2009 was where Bionicle "went right" for me, not "went wrong". 

 

I passionately hated the 2010 sets, but loved the story. That wasn't Bionicle "going wrong". That was Lego being cheap.

 

Even the alternate universes. I didn't think they were entirely necessary to the progression of the story, but it still didn't represent any kind of "going wrong" for Bionicle. What I loved about the sets, and the story was that they were continually changing. The story went to amazing new places, and the builds reflected that. I loved the fact that each year was completely different, and that nothing ever did stay the same. Bionicle's evolution was where it went right.

 

So where did Bionicle go wrong?

 

If you ask me, it didn't. 

[NorikSigma]

There really wasn't a moment where Bionicle went 'wrong'. Those who complain of losing the old 'mystery' feel seem to forget that sooner or later, the feel most disappear and reveal... Something.

 

And that something were the best parts of the Bionicle story. Sets were creative, interesting, and more easily interchangeable with other year sets.

 

The story and the sets almost felt like quality and dedication to me. Heck, even Stars wasn't terrible. Yes, they were small and simple, but I never had any doubt that theu were meant to be commemerative sets, and they were good in their function.

 

So I suppose my takeaway from this is that what many disliked with later year stuff could not pull themselves away from the fact that the story was progressing, and only really wanted to stay in their 'heydays'.

 

As for a more general lesson, one persom's meat is another person's poison. Asking if the line did go wrong is extremely subjective, but nonetheless informative of what you value.

[IXRollOutIX]

Being someone who experienced Bionicle for the most part though the comics and movies alone, (I read the first four books when I was young, and didn't bother to read the rest until a few years back) I have to say that Bionicle always managed to throw me for a loop and get a 'WOW' out of me, time and time again. After 2006 I stopped collecting the sets as frequently, but Matoro's sacrifice? Mata Nui Rising? The bad guy seemingly WINNING? Finding out there was an entirely new world outside of what we knew? Realizing the shattered Spherus Magna WAS the Bionicle logo? The reformation being both a great big metaphor and a means of defeating the Makuta once and for all? From start to finish it always left me guessing and blew me out of the water with the answers. I tend to ignore the serials, so as far as the comics and novels went, it ended on a satisfying, loosely tied end for me and I personally wasn't disappointed at all with the final years.

[dviddy]

The theme went wrong when it became bogged down with unnecessary side characters, side stories, alternate universes, "grim and gritty" deaths and plots, too many interconnected random plots based on what had been throwaway references or previous world-building asides, and the feeling that every single little thing in the entire series all needed to be related to one another. Yeesh. Not to mention the incessant need to define, canonize, and explain every tiny detail of everything.

 

"What is the red star???"

 

I really didn't need to know, honestly. It was a star that helped Matoran prophecy. We have examples of that in human myths and religions. People just accept that. Did we really need to explain it? Especially that lousily?

 

Set-wise, I'm not fond of much past 2005. There were good sets, good ideas, cool parts, etc, but the overall look and feel of the line moved too far from the original aesthetic that boosted TLG's bottom line enough to make it through banktruptcy for my tastes, and the over-detailed parts and consistently more and more complicated mask designs betrayed the set design and aesthetic the original sets sold me on. There have never been another set of kanohi that will come close to touching the masterful design work that went into the original six Toa masks. Simple, elegant, and evocative. The Avohkii came close enough to still fit, but everything else after looks like it came from a completely different school of design. Weird knowing the same designers were basically behind the mask designs the entire line.

 

Of course, officially? The line had its best and highest profits from 2001-2003, and had a slow and continuous decline-to-stagnation every year after. So obviously profits agree with my tastes best.

[Axilus Prime]

Hmm. Wow, a lot of people seem to not like 2006. I liked 06-08 the best out of all the Bionicle years.

[Sybre]

I, for one, didn't mind 2009, mainly because I wasn't a big follower of the story due to being the kind of fan that was only in it for the sets, which had pieces in colors that were new to the specific piece, so that increased the palette a little. Honestly, I thought 2010 was the worst year. Just so underwhelming compared to the preceding years.

[Toatapio Nuva]

When alternate universes were introduced.

[toa kopaka4372]

When alternate universes were introduced.

So 2002?

 

BIONICLE never went wrong for me. I loved the story to pieces all the way through, from 2001-2010, and am actually very happy that it went into so many new and bold directions, even if they were often controversial. 2001-2003 was radically different from 2004-2005, and the latter was very different from 2006 onwards, etc, but the quality was consistent and often better in the later years, in fact. There were a few parts where the story stumbled a little, but nothing major enough to affect my perception of the whole series. Overall, I'm more than satisfied with the final product. 

[Tuuli]

I went downhill for me around Stars, after discovering Bionicle was ending. The "online" story was never going to really cut it for me, and when they quit I gave up hope for years

[Aanchir]

"What is the red star???"

 

I really didn't need to know, honestly. It was a star that helped Matoran prophecy. We have examples of that in human myths and religions. People just accept that. Did we really need to explain it? Especially that lousily?

Well, the red star was meant to be more than just a star from the very beginning. First and foremost, its position in the sky moved around relative to the other stars (much like planets, comets, and other solar system objects in real life). But furthermore, in this comment, it's revealed that "One of the many spoilers from the Bionicle Bible was that the red comet visible through the beach telescope was an orbiting mothership of some sort."

 

Greg's explanation for the Red Star was not very elegant, especially because he revealed it in dialogue with the fans and not in the actual story where it could have been treated with a little bit more care and not mentioned as an offhand trivia point. But suggesting that it didn't need to be explained as anything other than a star at all smacks of the same kind of thinking people use when criticizing the reveal of the Great Spirit Mata Nui's true nature. "He was a spirit that the Matoran worshipped. We have examples of that in human myths and religion. People just accept that. Did we really need to explain it?"

 

And I think using the declining profits of the theme after 2002 to suggest people agree with your taste in sets is a bit dubious. Most themes peak in their first or second year and then decline. That's just what generally happens as a theme gets older, even if the design quality is maintained consistently. Ninjago has managed to remain successful for about four years, but there's no question that its scale has been reduced since 2012, because as popular as it is, it's unlikely that it could support as many sets today as it did in 2012. Maybe the upcoming movie might help revitalize the theme, and maybe not, but I don't think we're going to see it return to having 37 regular retail sets in any given year. The LEGO Movie has been a wildly successful theme, and even it didn't have half as many regular retail sets as that this year — unless you count each collectible minifigure individually, in which case you STILL come up four sets short of Ninjago's peak.

[dviddy]

 

"What is the red star???"

 

I really didn't need to know, honestly. It was a star that helped Matoran prophecy. We have examples of that in human myths and religions. People just accept that. Did we really need to explain it? Especially that lousily?

Well, the red star was meant to be more than just a star from the very beginning. First and foremost, its position in the sky moved around relative to the other stars (much like planets, comets, and other solar system objects in real life). But furthermore, in this comment, it's revealed that "One of the many spoilers from the Bionicle Bible was that the red comet visible through the beach telescope was an orbiting mothership of some sort."

 

Greg's explanation for the Red Star was not very elegant, especially because he revealed it in dialogue with the fans and not in the actual story where it could have been treated with a little bit more care and not mentioned as an offhand trivia point. But suggesting that it didn't need to be explained as anything other than a star at all smacks of the same kind of thinking people use when criticizing the reveal of the Great Spirit Mata Nui's true nature. "He was a spirit that the Matoran worshipped. We have examples of that in human myths and religion. People just accept that. Did we really need to explain it?"

 

And I think using the declining profits of the theme after 2002 to suggest people agree with your taste in sets is a bit dubious. Most themes peak in their first or second year and then decline. That's just what generally happens as a theme gets older, even if the design quality is maintained consistently. Ninjago has managed to remain successful for about four years, but there's no question that its scale has been reduced since 2012, because as popular as it is, it's unlikely that it could support as many sets today as it did in 2012. Maybe the upcoming movie might help revitalize the theme, and maybe not, but I don't think we're going to see it return to having 37 regular retail sets in any given year. The LEGO Movie has been a wildly successful theme, and even it didn't have half as many regular retail sets as that this year — unless you count each collectible minifigure individually, in which case you STILL come up four sets short of Ninjago's peak.

 

Everything about the Red Star reveal exemplifies everything that I feel went wrong with the line. It may have had a special role in the original story bible, that's neat! We still didn't need to know. As a resurrection chamber especially, it only allowed Greg yet another deus ex machina to bring back in characters he liked or fans liked too much to leave alone. As a fan-event, it exemplifies everything that was wrong with the "can we canonize this" and the "can you answer this incredibly irrelevant side question about a side character on a side quest". I love stories about lived-in, history-rich, fleshed-out worlds and civilizations. But this is not how to do that. BIONICLE in the latter years did nearly every story-telling rule backwards- it told, instead of showed. Greg answering questions was great when there were confusion relating to contradictory information, or for adding some historical asides- but when it became a fan event to see who could canonize more fan theories, to see who could get him to give them the biggest, most-detailed answer about something ultimately insignificant, it devolved into a messy chaos that impacted the world and the story negatively. I spent my first several years in college as a student studying literature and writing- I cannot see these methods as worthy of good storytelling, and I strongly, strongly believe they detracted from the overall story-telling experience and are a perfect example of the bloated and confusing story potential fans marked as a reason they didn't become actual fans when asked by TLG.

 

This is one of the major reason the line was canceled. Sales stagnated beyond a recovery point, and surveys revealed that potential fans found the story too complex, the story-telling methods too varied, the information too great and stretched, and ultimately abandoned the line in favour of other media franchises. There are reasons that Ninjago did not ape many of these methods.

 

As for the idea that not releasing the Red Star's spaceship-resurrection-chamber-deus-ex-machina is akin to not revealing the entire mystery behind the story engine itself- I think you're making an apples to oranges comparison. The purpose of the Red Star has been known since the earliest BIONICLE media- it was the primary source of prophecy and forecasting used by the Matoran (then Tohunga). It never needed another purpose, and indeed, as an artificial satellite this purpose is still easily understandable. Say it is a star put there by the Great Beings to allow the Matoran an attempt at understanding the true meaning behind their universe or somesuch silly thing. As I said- it works in real-life mythology and religion. But equating that tertiary story-telling mystery to the primary focus of the entire line is not a fair or valid comparison.

 

The last lines were a joke, hence the smiley.

[fishers64]

Testimonial: I spent 5 years as a Bionicle fan before knowing that Greg answers on BZP even existed, and that didn't take away from the story I knew at all. (Fans asking silly questions never struck me as that big a deal, you know?)

 

Take that as you will. 

 

I don't think Greg answers ruined the story - if you didn't like them, you could just ignore them. I never thought that they were a big deal until I got into the S&T forum and you practically needed a Greg answer to support any argument. (Which is where BZPower went wrong, lol, if you wanted to argue that, not Bionicle itself. )

Edited August 21, 2014 by fishers64

[believe victims]

2006 did so many things that I disliked. It was when the line fell smack into a weird need to be dark and gritty, exemplified best by the entire island of Voya Nui itself, which was rarely described without saying something like "Here in Bloodcurdle Peak lies the Terrible Murderbeast of Pain and Misery which kills 5 million Matoran per second." It is almost unbearable to read a story written like it cares more about throwing in a new way of alluding to death than about actually advancing the story.

 

It also introduced the Inika Build, which characterized the later years of Bionicle so much, there were characters who, without mask, tools, and colors, would be indistinguishable, despite being completely different characters with no relation to each other. I also agree with DV about masks getting far too complicated; the Mask of Life, one of the most important masks in the universe, was covered with pointless fins and textures. The original masks were so smooth and full of character, but later masks just lost that. The helmets in 2009 came pretty close to renewing that feeling, but it was too late; a majority of masks already looked completely foreign when held up to one of the twelve originals.

 

I also disagree with Greg's story-telling method of completely making things up as he went along. It led to all sorts of storyline weirdness. He was good at writing comics for a story set up by someone else, but when given free reign, it got out of control.

[bonesiii]

The purpose of the Red Star has been known since the earliest BIONICLE media- it was the primary source of prophecy and forecasting used by the Matoran (then Tohunga). It never needed another purpose, and indeed, as an artificial satellite this purpose is still easily understandable. Say it is a star put there by the Great Beings to allow the Matoran an attempt at understanding the true meaning behind their universe

Actually that's exactly what could not work,* because the story (as a necessary part of that story engine, the giant robot which inspired all of Bionicle) made it clear no Matoran were ever supposed to be living on the camouflage island to see the Red Star. It does make sense that in a contingency sense the Great Beings would give it multiple purposes, just in case any Matoran did need to live there (since they had similarly prophetic skies in the world they were used to), but that would IMO seriously detract from the Red Star's value as a mystery if the answer was just "they just wanted it to do what it did in 2001." That would mean the great mystery that had excited fans for so long was never a mystery at all, and more importantly, it would seriously stretch plausibility that the Great Beings would make that a regular part of the giant robot design (to split away like that) just for that purpose.

 

Most fans talking about it in S&T and such that I've seen have appeared to understand this. Yeah, there's obviously some that don't like the answer we got to the mystery (like always with solving of any mystery), but I haven't seen anybody yet actually say they wished for the 2001 appearance to be all there is to it. More likely their tastes just made them want a different solution to the mystery.

 

I agree it should have come out in plot, not answers, but this is a unique case as the plot was ended then for reasons outside his control, and a lot of people wanted to know, since it seems an in-story revelation wasn't going to be possible. In any event, I and evidently a lot of other people like the explanations of the Red Star we did get, regardless of that unique problem in how it came out. It makes more sense as a booster pack, and that alone would not be enough either -- a supremely bold answer to the mystery -- people actually come back to life there is WAY better. Depends on tastes though, like anything.

 

And keep in mind the "new factor" problem (Bionicle was ten years old!); that is the largest role in why it ended. Even had its story made no mistakes, this would still eventually be a problem for such a toyline. As they said, they couldn't get the kind of advertising for new years of an old line that they could with brand new lines, and that made it difficult to draw in new fans regardless of the story those fans would meet. That is the main reason sales declined and the line ended. The other mistakes were undoubtedly factors, and I understand the desire to think that if those had all been done right it could have gone on perpetually like LEGO City, but it's probably unrealistic. Especially since those things could have all simply been fixed rather than ending the line. But the "new factor" problem could only be fixed by taking a break of several years.

 

 

*Although, we do know the Great Beings were aware of the possibility of somebody being outside, as the Inika lightning machine is confirmed as just such a contingency. My point is that this is only likely as an "add to its purpose while we're at it" thing, not enough of a reason to construct the satellite in the first place. But having a revival center immune to most damage that could occur to the giant robot during its alien studies makes a lot of sense.

 

 

Edit: Also, something's wrong with this bit:

 

As a resurrection chamber especially, it only allowed Greg yet another deus ex machina to bring back in characters he liked or fans liked too much to leave alone.

This ("only") forgets that things were seriously wrong there. It's basically an "absolutely no revivals in story" preference, which is fine so far as it goes, but clearly is not a good match to Bionicle which has been featuring revivals since 2003. Understandable that it would happen, though, since revivals weren't a clear part of 2001 plot. Really, if revivals make sense in the world you've created, they should happen, especially if they come with fascinating downsides like being trapped in the revival hospital and chased by zombies and dissected by the hospital workers!

 

Also, previously I might have agreed with this to an extent (the "bring back characters just because the author likes them" part), but lately Greg has thankfully agreed to reasonable rules -- if the brain is not intact, no revival... unless they had been revived before with brain intact, and then their memories reset to that previous revival. That means everybody who died by such a method, whether the author or fans want them back or not, stays dead, or at least can't come back intact. That makes it a logical in-story system, not a magical "bring back whoever we want" excuse.

 

Actually it's been treated more realistically than even real-world revivals, like on CSI and such -- if a side character takes a bullet, they just die on the spot, but if a main character does, most of the time they survive long enough to be in the hospital and then if they go to technical death there, the CLEAR and zap (that's the technical name ) method to bring them back will almost always work. With the Red Star, yes, you can be revived from way worse than in the real world, but it's more clearcut who can't come back.

Edited August 20, 2014 by bonesiii

[Jakura Nuva]

2006 did so many things that I disliked. It was when the line fell smack into a weird need to be dark and gritty, exemplified best by the entire island of Voya Nui itself, which was rarely described without saying something like "Here in Bloodcurdle Peak lies the Terrible Murderbeast of Pain and Misery which kills 5 million Matoran per second." It is almost unbearable to read a story written like it cares more about throwing in a new way of alluding to death than about actually advancing the story.

 

It also introduced the Inika Build, which characterized the later years of Bionicle so much, there were characters who, without mask, tools, and colors, would be indistinguishable, despite being completely different characters with no relation to each other. I also agree with DV about masks getting far too complicated; the Mask of Life, one of the most important masks in the universe, was covered with pointless fins and textures. The original masks were so smooth and full of character, but later masks just lost that. The helmets in 2009 came pretty close to renewing that feeling, but it was too late; a majority of masks already looked completely foreign when held up to one of the twelve originals.

 

I also disagree with Greg's story-telling method of completely making things up as he went along. It led to all sorts of storyline weirdness. He was good at writing comics for a story set up by someone else, but when given free reign, it got out of control.

Technically, I wouldn't blame 2006 for introducing the Inika build, because it was a unique and new thing for that year. Instead, I would blame 2007 for continuing the use of that build from then onward.

[Manducus]

Where did Bionicle go wrong?

 

When they started introducing brittle sockets.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Regicidal Kaiser Manducus

[believe victims]

Actually that's exactly what could not work, because the story (as a necessary part of that story engine, the giant robot which inspired all of Bionicle) made it clear no Matoran were ever supposed to be living on the camouflage island to see the Red Star. It does make sense that in a contingency sense the Great Beings would give it multiple purposes, just in case any Matoran did need to live there (since they had similarly prophetic skies in the world they were used to), but that would IMO seriously detract from the Red Star's value as a mystery if the answer was just "they just wanted it to do what it did in 2001." That would mean the great mystery that had excited fans for so long was never a mystery at all, and more importantly, it would seriously stretch plausibility that the Great Beings would make that a regular part of the giant robot design (to split away like that) just for that purpose.

Hm. But if that's the case, why DID it make such accurate prophecies? I guess it could be seen as the Turaga making it up to give the Matoran something to go by, but even with what they knew, the Turaga could not have an accurate enough timeline to make prophecies alongside the positions of the Red Star. If the prophecies were not a part of its function, then it still has yet to be explained how they could have happened at all.

[bonesiii]

why DID it make such accurate prophecies? I guess it could be seen as the Turaga making it up to give the Matoran something to go by

That's possible, since Vakama is confirmed to get actual visions of the future. He might simply tell Nixie what positions of its orbit could mean what. But that wouldn't work with the MNOG portrayal which showed it actively moving and then stopping, as if it was intentional to "complete constellations".

 

As for how that could happen, got a theory in my retelling I'd rather not spoil.

 

Regardless, some general "it taps into destiny" idea is undoubtedly the answer.

Edited August 20, 2014 by bonesiii

[Aanchir]

It also introduced the Inika Build, which characterized the later years of Bionicle so much, there were characters who, without mask, tools, and colors, would be indistinguishable, despite being completely different characters with no relation to each other.

Isn't the same true of most Toa builds over the years, though? Onua and Pohatu are the only two Toa Mata/Toa Nuva who had particularly unique builds. Notably, Takanuva was exactly the same as Gali Nuva when you stripped away his mask, weapons, and colors. The Toa Metru and Lhikan were identical except for height — Nokama, Nuju, and Lhikan were two modules taller than the other four. And the Toa Hordika were completely identical to one another.

 

The Toa Inika themselves were more diverse than the Toa Hordika in terms of color schemes, equipment, and armor designs, but from then on the diversity of characters continued to surpass pre-2006 standards. Prior to 2007, you'd be lucky if two sets out of every six had slight differences in their build. But starting in 2007, every single canister set series (with the exception of the Glatorian Legends) had two or more characters that broke from a "standardized" build (Takadox, Ehlek, Pridak, Mantax, Matoro, Kongu, Pohatu, Vamprah, Chirox, Tahu, Krika, Gorast, Bitil, Strakk, Skrall, Vorox, Kiina, Rahkshi, Skrall).

 

If 2006 was a turning point, it was because it was the first year that introduced torsos that were designed for long-term usefulness (for sets of various sizes, no less), not just to be used for two or three years and then thrown away. Though I would say the big turning point was not 2006 (after all, the LEGO Group had always introduced at least two new torso pieces each year, and 2006 was no different), and the real turning point was 2007 — the year the LEGO Group finally broke free from half a decade of clone sets and a wasteful habit of retiring major structural elements after just two or three years of use.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Aanchir

[believe victims]

 

It also introduced the Inika Build, which characterized the later years of Bionicle so much, there were characters who, without mask, tools, and colors, would be indistinguishable, despite being completely different characters with no relation to each other.

Isn't the same true of most Toa builds over the years, though? Onua and Pohatu are the only two Toa Mata/Toa Nuva who had particularly unique builds. Notably, Takanuva was exactly the same as Gali Nuva when you stripped away his mask, weapons, and colors. The Toa Metru and Lhikan were identical except for height — Nokama, Nuju, and Lhikan were two modules taller than the other four. And the Toa Hordika were completely identical to one another.

 

I made an entire disclaimer about "with no relation to each other" and I still get examples that are related to each other, save Lhikan who was still within the same year and take on building system.

[Aanchir]

 

 

It also introduced the Inika Build, which characterized the later years of Bionicle so much, there were characters who, without mask, tools, and colors, would be indistinguishable, despite being completely different characters with no relation to each other.

Isn't the same true of most Toa builds over the years, though? Onua and Pohatu are the only two Toa Mata/Toa Nuva who had particularly unique builds. Notably, Takanuva was exactly the same as Gali Nuva when you stripped away his mask, weapons, and colors. The Toa Metru and Lhikan were identical except for height — Nokama, Nuju, and Lhikan were two modules taller than the other four. And the Toa Hordika were completely identical to one another.

 

 

I made an entire disclaimer about "with no relation to each other" and I still get examples that are related to each other, save Lhikan who was still within the same year and take on building system.

 

So what you're saying is, it's OK if every character from a single team has the exact same build, but if characters from different teams use the same build it's a problem? I guess I can understand that, but personally I feel quite differently.

 

To me, I think it's wasteful to introduce new build after new build just to toss them after a couple years. If you have a character intended to have a certain, standardized physique and you have parts that are designed for that physique, use them! And if not, it's best to come up with a solution that doesn't involve introducing specialized new molds that you're just going to end up throwing out before long anyway. I consider the original six Glatorian much more creative, unique-looking, and fun to build than any Vahki or Visorak, and I'd love them even more if the designers had swapped Strakk's admittedly overspecialized shoulder armor for a solution that used existing parts.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Aanchir

[doodleloot]

The line never really went completely wrong in my opinion. It did a lot of things wrong, most of wich are very forgiveable. Except for that one thing...

 

Piraka. Rap.

 

Now don't get me wrong, I loved the Piraka, both as sets and characters (even though they suffered from the clone builds), but the way they were advertised was simply terrible. I kind of liked the darker approach to the theme, allthough it was overdone at times. But the way they were presented was completely ridiculous. 

Edited August 20, 2014 by doodleloot

[Toa of Ice - 1987]

Personally i think it was because of the continous complexity of the story. It started out easy but i think it screeched to too much to take in at once when all the serials were added. I could remember everything fom 2001 to 2006, but trying to explain where all the serials fit in can get frustrating to explain to newcomers.

 

 

As for sets i also think lego went too far by relying so much on the inika/piraka/av-toran bodies for all main characters the years after they were introduced, you can only repeat things ever so often before it becomes boring.

Edited August 20, 2014 by ---Kopaka Nuva---

[Jakura Nuva]

I could remember everything fom 2001 to 2006, but trying to explain where all the serials fit in can get frustrating to explain to newcomers.

Heck, the serial placing is still confusing for me.

[Aanchir]

 

I could remember everything fom 2001 to 2006, but trying to explain where all the serials fit in can get frustrating to explain to newcomers.

Heck, the serial placing is still confusing for me.

 

Yeah, I can agree there. It wasn't quite so confusing towards the start because most of the serials were concurrent with the main story that was being told at the time, and their scope was fairly simple. The Toa Nuva Blog was just following what was going on during the Toa Nuva's adventures, "Dreams of Destruction" followed Lesovikk and his Matoran friends, and "Into the Darkness" was a side story focusing on Matoro and Maxilos. They crossed over with each other and with the main story a bit but for the most part they were self-contained, and they would clearly tell you when you had to read or listen to a chapter of one of the other stories to understand what was going on.

 

It's not like more recent story themes are necessarily clearer about placement, though. Greg Farshtey's Ninjago and Legends of Chima stories take place in between the events told in the TV series, but they're not always specific about when or where they take place. But in these cases, it doesn't entirely matter. The stories are more or less self-contained, not picking up on loose ends from the main story or leaving new ones for future stories to wrap up. If there is any specific timeline placement, then the stories will tell you the bare minimum that you need to know so that you don't feel like you're expected to have a lot of background knowledge.