Where did the GSR crash on Bara Magna?

Boidoh · September 27, 2014

Where did Teridax fall? Where is the MU currently on BM? I need to know the location of where it crashed because of a Fikou question I want ask Greg...

And those who follow the LMBs, you KNOW how I ask my Fikou questions...

http://biosector01.com/wiki/images/e/e3/Map_Bara_Magna.png

Where in context of this map.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Boidoh

Thormen · September 27, 2014

I'm pretty sure it's in the south, close to Aqua Magna. He was standing close to Aqua Magna's impact point when he triggered the Reformation, and then a part of Aqua Magna hit him in the head because he was too close.

Boidoh · September 27, 2014

I heard somewhere it was near the Black Spike Mountains, not sure where though.

Takhamavahu · September 28, 2014

That map isn't the whole planet. It hopefully crashed out of the way somewhere. Of to the southeast I bet.

**bonesiii** · September 28, 2014

I thought we just had a topic about this... *searches...* *finds it*

I guess that topic was actually asking a different question, which was related to this, so I guess I'll go with the technicality and allow this one to stay open separately. But the answer is (to quote myself there):

Well, we know the Mata Nui (Makuta) giant robot ended up near the coast of what is now restored as the southern ocean (the Great Sea; Aqua Magna), somewhere south of the Agori habitations we saw in 2009 story. [...] Since there's no real landmarks that we were told of around there, we don't need to know much; it's all just general paradise forestry everywhere.

http://www.bzpower.com/board/topic/14775-i-have-a-question-in-regards-to-matorans/

Now it could have been somewhat to the east or west, rather than due south. It really doesn't matter exactly where.

Toa of Italy · September 28, 2014

From Journey's End:

Mata Nui saw it coming. It was why he had forced Makuta to this northern edge of Bara Magna.
His last gambit was about to pay off, and by a miracle, he was going to live to see it.

A shadow fell over the robots, the shadow of the moon of Bota Magna returning to its place of
origin. Using the last of his energy, Mata Nui rose and shoved Makuta backward into the path
of the planetoid. Its edge impacted the robot, smashing in the metallic head with a sickening
crunch. Makuta’s armored form began to topple toward Mata Nui and the Bara Magna desert.
Using every bit of mechanical muscle he possessed, Mata Nui caught Makuta and pushed him
aside, causing the massive robot to fall onto the Black Spikes. The impact of the robot crushed
the mountains to powder, even as the twin collisions of Bota Magna and Aqua Magna shook
the entire world.

This isn't quite what the answer bonesiii posted says. Personally, I think this is both more official (given that it is from a book rather than an online question) and more likely, since I've always imagined that the Sea of Liquid Sand was an extension of Aqua Magna which had remained on Bara Magna and dried out, meaning that if Mata Nui had landed there he would have, having Aqua Magna returned, submerged. However, everyone is free to choose whatever answer they like.

Thormen · September 28, 2014

Wait a minute, so Journey's End says the GSR was hit by Bota Magna? 'Cause BS01's page about Aqua Magna says:

The Aqua Magna satellite went through the atmosphere, and a fragment of it broke off. This fragment impacted the head of Makuta Teridax, killing him.

This directly affects the OP's question since it makes sense that the GSR would fall near the impact point of the moon it was hit by. However, I just checked Comic #7 'Rebirth' and it tells another story altogether. On page 10 it says:

No one would have blamed Mata Nui if he had given up then and there, but with a fury that surprised Makuta, he drove his larger opponent back, towards the northern reaches of Bara Magna.

(emphasis mine)

But on page 13 it is clearly Aqua Magna that crashes into its head. There's no mention of a fragment breaking off here.

So I guess we're going to have to ascribe this to artistic license, but for that reason I'm inclined to say Greg's online answer is more canon than both the book and the comic. Of course I haven't actually found Greg's quote on the subject yet, I'm currently just assuming that the thing about a fragment breaking off from Aqua Magna and hitting the GSR in the head causing it to fall down near the Great Sea was said by Greg somewhere, but I might be wrong about that.

**bonesiii** · September 28, 2014

Huh. Yeah, the Bota/Aqua thing is common knowledge, but I've never heard that about JE having him go north instead of south.

When Greg was asked about JE on which moon (or fragment in Aqua's case) was more canon to hit him, Greg at first said Aqua, and explained that JE was written was early before things were really set in stone (he wasn't quite this clear but it's basically what he said). But later he seemed to backtrack on this and appealed to the "two universes" explanation like he has sometimes for a "comic universe" and "movie universe." So on that, Greg now says neither is more canon than the other, in part because it really doesn't matter. However, since he gave more weight to the later version, and retcons usually outweigh previous answers (except for forgetcons lol), I personally go with Aqua.

Based on the same reasoning, I would think the GSR crashing south is more canon than north. It's what MNS shows. But in this case it does actually matter, so Greg will have to be consulted specifically on this to be sure.

and more likely, since I've always imagined that the Sea of Liquid Sand was an extension of Aqua Magna which had remained on Bara Magna and dried out, meaning that if Mata Nui had landed there he would have, having Aqua Magna returned, submerged.

That's very unlikely. The SoLS was right next to the main Agori inhabited areas which was apparently much more northernly than southernly, or perhaps in the middle, and logically if it was right next to the giant crater, that water probably would seep easily through it down into the core and be gone for Agori use. That's part of why most of Bara Magna became a more intense desert, after all. The southern coastline (of the Great Sea) would presumably be much farther south.

However, I just checked Comic #7 'Rebirth' and it tells another story altogether. On page 10 it says:

Quote

No one would have blamed Mata Nui if he had given up then and there, but with a fury that surprised Makuta, he drove his larger opponent back, towards the northern reaches of Bara Magna.
(emphasis mine)

But on page 13 it is clearly Aqua Magna that crashes into its head. There's no mention of a fragment breaking off here.

The northern thing aside for the moment, I'm confused as to what you're saying in the first sentence and mainly last two here. In the first, you say you're talking about the comics, but in the last paragraph you say there's no fragment. But the comic image clearly shows a tiny fragment of Aqua Magna hitting him.

The two versions are:

1) Comic: fragment of Aqua Magna breaks off and hits.

2) MNS/JE: all of Bota Magna hits.

There's no version as far as I am aware where the entire Aqua Magna hits him. Or are you looking at another source that does say that and you didn't mean the comic? *is confused*

Anyways, noted about the comic saying northern too (assuming you did mean comic).

Bottom line is, in 2010, nearly every source stopped communicating and checking facts with each other and that resulted in a lot of such messes, probably as a result of being rushed due to the somewhat sudden end of Bionicle. We do have to bear that in mind and not be surprised when we keep finding more such contradictions and different versions for anything 2010.

Edited September 28, 2014 by bonesiii

fishers64 · September 29, 2014

Checks: http://biomediaproject.com/bmp/files/gfx/Comics/Bara%20Magna%20Saga/Comic07/Bara%20Magna%20Saga%2007.pdf

Yep, that's the comic. See page 9.

Two official story sources say north. I think you're ka-nixed. :shrugs: (No Greg answers I can find refute this, either...)

**bonesiii** · September 29, 2014

Two sources also said Bota hit Teridax, but Greg picked Aqua as his preference. Number of sources doesn't really matter; it's which source is canon or given canon preference.

I was wondering, though -- we've all just assumed the MNS images refer to the Great Sea. What if instead they refer to the SoLS? All three could be consistent then (as for north/south; not Bota/Aqua -- the SoLS isn't right next to the Black Spike mountains but it's still more northernish than AM). And admittedly, since it's the comic that shows the Aqua fragment, and comic says north, I'd be generally inclined to go with north now. :shrugs:

Banana Gunz · September 29, 2014

I never felt like Bara-Magna had a very definite/emphasized setting. And with the reformation of Spherus Magna, who really knows? ~~Obviously Bonesiii does.~~

Edited September 29, 2014 by Banana Gunz

fishers64 · September 29, 2014

What is the SoLS?

Edited September 29, 2014 by fishers64

Takhamavahu · September 29, 2014

The Sea of Liquid Sand.

Rahkshi Lalonde · September 29, 2014

Hmm, while this is an interesting discussion, i am quite confused how the answer to this (where the MU robot died) relates to fikou canon. :0

NorikSigma · September 29, 2014

I thought you meant this GSR at first.

I think it was the sea of liquid sand, where they duelled.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Norik Of Celtania

Thormen · September 29, 2014

The northern thing aside for the moment, I'm confused as to what you're saying in the first sentence and mainly last two here. In the first, you say you're talking about the comics, but in the last paragraph you say there's no fragment. But the comic image clearly shows a tiny fragment of Aqua Magna hitting him.

The two versions are:

1) Comic: fragment of Aqua Magna breaks off and hits.

2) MNS/JE: all of Bota Magna hits.

There's no version as far as I am aware where the entire Aqua Magna hits him. Or are you looking at another source that does say that and you didn't mean the comic? *is confused*.

Oh right, that's another way of reading the comic. Based on the scale of things it would indeed make the most sense for that thing on page #13 to be just a fragment of Aqua Magna, but I had assumed it was Aqua Magna in its entirety for a number of reasons: (a) the comic never says anything about a fragment breaking off from Aqua Magna; (b) the supposed fragment on page #13 looks a lot like Aqua Magna on page #9; and © page #13 calls that thing 'one of the onrising moons of Bara Magna', which is strange if it is actually just a fragment of an onrising moon.

Yes, I know that that thing could never be Aqua Magna if you take its scale into account since the same GSR that is hit in the head by that thing was for a 1000 years lying on its surface, however scale and other statistics are very often violated when it comes to visual representation in BIONICLE media (for example, the GSR is supposed to be twelve thousand kilometers tall and the Mata Nui island is supposed to be five hundred kilometers in length; with these proportions, the GSR's head should be a lot smaller than it has been depicted; and remember the letdown when AMEET released its map of the MU? All the islands were drawn several orders of magnitude large than they were supposed to be). I think there's a good chance that, should we ask Greg about the comic, he'd say it was Aqua Magna that simply looked so small because it was drawn that way.

I was wondering, though -- we've all just assumed the MNS images refer to the Great Sea. What if instead they refer to the SoLS? All three could be consistent then (as for north/south; not Bota/Aqua -- the SoLS isn't right next to the Black Spike mountains but it's still more northernish than AM). And admittedly, since it's the comic that shows the Aqua fragment, and comic says north, I'd be generally inclined to go with north now.

I think that's really unlikely, there are waves rolling down on the beach in the MNS image. Quicksand doesn't move like that. I image the SoLS to be some kind of erg, a sheet of fine sand in the desert that has accumulated due to the wind. Desert nomads avoid these areas since they are difficult to move through and you run a risk of being trapped by the sand. The SoLS could be an erg with abundant dry quicksand.

However, I don't think the MNS necessarily shows the place the GSR has fallen. For all we know, the GSR fell in the north, then Mata Nui walked around a bit while he was breathing new life in the planet, and finally crashed in the south near Aqua Magna.

So I'm leaning towards the GSR being in the north now as well.

**bonesiii** · September 29, 2014

Hmm, while this is an interesting discussion, i am quite confused how the answer to this (where the MU robot died) relates to fikou canon. :0

Presumably the topic starter is wondering where Fikou (and other Rahi) currently are spreading from the giant robot.

I had assumed it was Aqua Magna in its entirety for a number of reasons: (a) the comic never says anything about a fragment breaking off from Aqua Magna

Greg confirmed it was a fragment.

the supposed fragment on page #13 looks a lot like Aqua Magna on page #9

Yes, and one comic image of Spherus Magna makes it look like a tiny asteroid, potato-lumpoid, but that's clearly not canon; it's a vast sphere. You can't rely on comic images in 2010 unfortunately. The comic artist probably did intend it to be the whole thing but because the actual impact image makes that impossible Greg later clarified it as a fragment. And it didn't need to mention a fragment breaking off, as they probably were too busy to notice that anyways.

Basically, this way the image of the gravity pulling on the two moons only needs ignored; the actual impact image is canon(ically preferred). The alternative is that both images show the entire moon in a ridiculous contradictory potato-moon shape (water seeks a level, even in Bionicle physics, and AM had always been shown as a sphere before).

page #13 calls that thing 'one of the onrising moons of Bara Magna', which is strange if it is actually just a fragment of an onrising moon.

Not really -- technically the moment a split happens, the fragment becomes a third moon. It can also work in a summative sense; the narrator doesn't have space for the technicality, etc. But see above; probably it was planned to be the entire thing, but when the comic artist didn't do his homework and drew it as a fragment, Greg retconned that explanation in, rather than imply that the giant robot was sitting onthat tiny potato for a thousand years mostly submerged.

however scale and other statistics are very often violated when it comes to visual representation in BIONICLE media (for example, the GSR is supposed to be twelve thousand kilometers tall and the Mata Nui island is supposed to be five hundred kilometers in length; with these proportions, the GSR's head should be a lot smaller than it has been depicted

Not exactly:

http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/bonesiii/Bionicle/MUdomesmap/test_myth_robot_island_size.png

In short, there's no reason the island can't be smaller than the head by half like that, and even if the numbers are changed, it really makes no big difference. That isn't really comparable to this, because both things are shown together here, and even contradict other comic images (like when the giant first stands up, on AM), so it does make a difference here. The fragment solution is MUCH simpler than appealing to artistic license. (And violent reentry could certainly tear off a fragment, especially one already weakened due to the past Shattering and gravitational warping into a sphere.)

remember the letdown when AMEET released its map of the MU? All the islands were drawn several orders of magnitude large than they were supposed to be

Only if you assume the purpose of the map is to show placement accurately and distance between islands, rather than its actual purpose of efficiently showing you the shapes at a glance and rough positions. If you think about it, if they did a map literally accurate in all respects, most of it would be empty space and you'd have to zoom in to see the island shapes more clearly.

This is somewhat off-topic, but I have theorized their actual locations in an image related to the previous one, here:

http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/bonesiii/Bionicle/MUdomesmap/mu_domes_map_barraki.jpg

A glance at that map illustrates my point; the details of the islands almost seem to disappear at that scale.

(And no, I don't recall a lot of people posting that they were upset about that map. Actually there's just been a handful of questions, usually more recently, where some have slowly noticed the map doesn't literally fit if you just overlay it onto an image of the giant. One or two have assumed a contradiction, but it's easily answered as not intended to show their literal locations and distances. )

Does Bionicle make mistakes of scale? Yes, but that doesn't mean it would be wiser to just leave the mistakes unsolved, especially when a simple solution like the one Greg used here fixes things. ^_^

I think there's a good chance that, should we ask Greg about the comic, he'd say it was Aqua Magna that simply looked so small because it was drawn that way.

Who knows if he'd even remember his previous answers now. Let's please not go for yet another forgetcon. :|

I think that's really unlikely, there are waves rolling down on the beach in the MNS image.

Good point...

For all we know, the GSR fell in the north, then Mata Nui walked around a bit while he was breathing new life in the planet, and finally crashed in the south near Aqua Magna.

Hey that works. (I think...)

Now this is one I might actually want Greg asked about (as long as the asker explains the issue clearly and concisely rather than expecting him to just remember it).

It's no big loss if the MNS image(s?) happen to be the non-canon ones, or "different universe" again; we have a clearly unresolvable contradiction anyways with the Aqua-fragment/Bota thing, and 2010 can't be rescued from all its mistakes, but might be cool to get this one resolved.

Thormen · September 29, 2014

I had assumed it was Aqua Magna in its entirety for a number of reasons: (a) the comic never says anything about a fragment breaking off from Aqua Magna
Greg confirmed it was a fragment.

the supposed fragment on page #13 looks a lot like Aqua Magna on page #9
Yes, and one comic image of Spherus Magna makes it look like a tiny asteroid, potato-lumpoid, but that's clearly not canon; it's a vast sphere. You can't rely on comic images in 2010 unfortunately. The comic artist probably did intend it to be the whole thing but because the actual impact image makes that impossible Greg later clarified it as a fragment. And it didn't need to mention a fragment breaking off, as they probably were too busy to notice that anyways.

Basically, this way the image of the gravity pulling on the two moons only needs ignored; the actual impact image is canon(ically preferred). The alternative is that both images show the entire moon in a ridiculous contradictory potato-moon shape (water seeks a level, even in Bionicle physics, and AM had always been shown as a sphere before).

Ok, so Greg said the thing in Comic #7 was only a fragment of Aqua Magna? 'Cause I've been looking for a quote from him concerning this subject but I haven't found one. I assumed the information about a fragment breaking off from Aqua Magna must've come from a quote (I read it on BS01 without a source), but I didn't know the quote was specifically concerned with the comic. I just assumed somebody asked Greg about the contradiction between Bota Magna hitting the GSR in Journey's End and the MNS and Aqua Magna doing so in Comic #7, and Greg resolved it by saying all of these were non-canon, explaining about the fragment. I was simply arguing that the artist's intention was probably to have Aqua Magna be that tiny (relatively speaking) fragment on page #13, with which you agree.

Not really -- technically the moment a split happens, the fragment becomes a third moon.

Actually it's only a moon if it orbits a planet, which it never did since it broke off after Teridax pulled the moons together.

Not exactly:

http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/bonesiii/Bionicle/MUdomesmap/test_myth_robot_island_size.png

In short, there's no reason the island can't be smaller than the head by half like that, and even if the numbers are changed, it really makes no big difference. That isn't really comparable to this, because both things are shown together here, and even contradict other comic images (like when the giant first stands up, on AM), so it does make a difference here. The fragment solution is MUCH simpler than appealing to artistic license. (And violent reentry could certainly tear off a fragment, especially one already weakened due to the past Shattering and gravitational warping into a sphere.)

I think we differ on what we mean by "a lot", but there are also some problems with your calculations. I did the math as well and got the same results (obviously, since it's math) but you left out a part at the end: the greyscale image of the Mata Nui island superimposed over the GSR's head is indeed showing the correct proportions, which makes the length of the island (counting from the southernmost cape at the Kanae Bay to the northernmost cape at the Leva Bay) a little over half of the head's height, let's say 55%. But you then assume the Mata Nui Rising video depicts the GSR's head to be exactly as tall as the Mata Nui island is long, which is not the case. In fact, the length of the island (again from the southernmost to the northernmost cape) seems to be 150% of the GSR's head's height. That makes the Mata Nui island in the video actually three times as long as it is supposed to be, resulting in an area that is nine times as large.

Now, you seem to have used that image to argue that Spherus Magna is still a lot larger than Earth, even if you adjust the GSR's size to the size shown in the Mata Nui Rising video, and I think that is still a valid conclusion (I mean, the GSR is basically as tall as the Earth's diameter), but for me the 9:1 ratio discrepancy between the video and canon qualifies as "a lot". Of course it's still not comparable with the scale descrepancy I was suggesting for Aqua Magna in the comic, but I was arguing scale descrepancies do occur in BIONICLE media.

Only if you assume the purpose of the map is to show placement accurately and distance between islands, rather than its actual purpose of efficiently showing you the shapes at a glance and rough positions. If you think about it, if they did a map literally accurate in all respects, most of it would be empty space and you'd have to zoom in to see the island shapes more clearly.
This is somewhat off-topic, but I have theorized their actual locations in an image related to the previous one, here:

http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/bonesiii/Bionicle/MUdomesmap/mu_domes_map_barraki.jpg

A glance at that map illustrates my point; the details of the islands almost seem to disappear at that scale.

(And no, I don't recall a lot of people posting that they were upset about that map. Actually there's just been a handful of questions, usually more recently, where some have slowly noticed the map doesn't literally fit if you just overlay it onto an image of the giant. One or two have assumed a contradiction, but it's easily answered as not intended to show their literal locations and distances. )

Does Bionicle make mistakes of scale? Yes, but that doesn't mean it would be wiser to just leave the mistakes unsolved, especially when a simple solution like the one Greg used here fixes things.

Those were most likely the things AMEET kept in mind when they made the map, but it was promoted as simply "a map of the Matoran Universe" and I remember Greg responding to questions about its scale with something along the lines of "Sorry guys, but this is what you're going to have to make do with.". I remember a lot of people pointing out how this map couldn't possibly show Metru Nui with its correct size, since the island of Mata Nui would reach the Northern Continent. But anyway, the thread it was posted in is long gone now so there's not really any point in arguing about whether it was "a lot" of people who objected to the map or not.

That map you made with the GSR and its domes is pretty neat, especially how you found an actual dome for the Northern Continent. I think the Southern Continent is still problematic though due to the hip joints, but there's no way to fix that IMO.

Now this is one I might actually want Greg asked about (as long as the asker explains the issue clearly and concisely rather than expecting him to just remember it).

It's no big loss if the MNS image(s?) happen to be the non-canon ones, or "different universe" again; we have a clearly unresolvable contradiction anyways with the Aqua-fragment/Bota thing, and 2010 can't be rescued from all its mistakes, but might be cool to get this one resolved.

Ok, how about this?

Hi Greg,

On BZP we've recently been discussing where the giant robot that Teridax took over might have landed after Teridax died. We know it's on Spherus Magna of course, but we were wondering where exactly. We figured we'd consider which piece of Spherus Magna hit Teridax in the head: since the robot was hit by one of the pieces reforming Spherus Magna, it most likely landed somewhere near the place where this piece was heading; in other words, the robot is most likely in the north if it was hit by Bota Magna since Bota Magna is to the north of Bara Magna, while it is most likely somewhere in the southwest if it was hit by Aqua Magna since Aqua Magna is to the southwest of Bara Magna. Journey's End says Teridax was driven to the north by Mata Nui, then Bota Magna hit his head and he fell down on the Black Spike Mountains. However, comic #7 'Rebirth' contradicts this, showing how Teridax is hit in the head with (what looks like a miniscule version of) Aqua Magna, although the comic also states the two robots were fighting in the north. The Mata Nui Saga depicts Bota Magna (it says 'the jungle moon') hitting Teridax, but it also depicts the protagonists gathering with the Ignika at the end near some kind of sea or ocean. You were asked several years ago about which moon hit Teridax and you explained that the idea of Bota Magna hitting him came from an outdated version of the story bible, while the miniscule Aqua Magna in the comic was in fact only a fragment of the moon. You said a fragment of Aqua Magna broke off when the moon entered the atmosphere and it was this fragment that hit Teridax. So based on that information, we theorized that the robot Teridax took over most likely fell in the north, crushing a part of the Black Spike Mountains, since the only sources that specify a location for Teridax (Journey's End and comic #7) say he was in the north, but the image of everybody standing with the Ignika near the ocean was near Aqua Magna in the southwest of Bara Magna, nowhere near the place where Teridax fell: Mata Nui might have walked from the Black Spike Mountains to Aqua Magna while he was creating plant life all over Bara Magna. It would make sense that he would walk around while doing this, since he was trying to cover the entire desert and his giant robot body wouldn't have made it very difficult for him. We decided to run this theory by you:

1) Where exactly on Spherus Magna did Teridax's robot body land when he died?
2) Where did Mata Nui's robot body disintegrate, after which Mata Nui held his final speech?

Many thanks!

**bonesiii** · September 29, 2014

[Edit: Since this post is long, Thormen if you're reading now, short answer is in the reply to the final quoted part at the end of this post. ]

I just assumed somebody asked Greg about the contradiction between Bota Magna hitting the GSR in Journey's End and the MNS and Aqua Magna doing so in Comic #7, and Greg resolved it by saying all of these were non-canon, explaining about the fragment

Well, remember what I said earlier that he ultimately declined to pick one over the other as "more canon." But we do know that in the "universe" where it was Aqua, it was a fragment. I don't have time to search right now, but a search looking for "Aqua" through fishers' archives might give the result. I don't know if he literally used the actual word "fragment", though it can't hurt to search that too.

Actually it's only a moon if it orbits a planet, which it never did since it broke off after Teridax pulled the moons together.

Technically an orbit is a constant falling, but since gravitational bodies are spherical (if big enough but you get the picture), they fall in a circle (really oval but it's round ), and end up never hitting it. Moons may have unstable orbits that gradually fall. Even if a moon is in the process of nearing the end of an unstable orbit and is already in the atmosphere, it's still orbiting, not falling directly. So technically if it completes an orbit or two around, as these probably did, then the fragment is a moon (whether it's in the atmosphere or not is irrelevant, and that may actually be debatable anyways since the giant's head is so high up, plus atmospheres don't actually have a solid edge but fade in). But as I went on to say, I doubt this is the meaning.

Another alternative, BTW, is that since it being a fragment was a retcon, simply consider that line retconned too.

I think we differ on what we mean by "a lot", but there are also some problems with your calculations. I did the math as well and got the same results (obviously, since it's math) but you left out a part at the end: the greyscale image of the Mata Nui island superimposed over the GSR's head is indeed showing the correct proportions, which makes the length of the island (counting from the southernmost cape at the Kanae Bay to the northernmost cape at the Leva Bay) a little over half of the head's height, let's say 55%.

In that case, the figure that matters is the distance between Ko-Wahi (where one eye was under) and the Ga-Wahi bay (other eye), and the calculations show that even at that small, they do fit. The holes have to be more at the tear-duct locations than in the center of the eyes, but that's immaterial since the eyes reach all the way to the edge of the face, and we know they look close together in Metru Nui's sky so obviously the entire eyes were never the whole holes (pun not intended ). The island would have to be much smaller for it to actually be a problem.

But you then assume the Mata Nui Rising video depicts the GSR's head to be exactly as tall as the Mata Nui island is long, which is not the case. In fact, the length of the island (again from the southernmost to the northernmost cape) seems to be 150% of the GSR's head's height. That makes the Mata Nui island in the video actually three times as long as it is supposed to be, resulting in an area that is nine times as large.

I'm rushed right now so I'm going to have to get back to you on this; maybe that's the only reason why I'm not following you here. But yeah, I don't see what you mean. Maybe the above clears it up.

Now, you seem to have used that image to argue that Spherus Magna is still a lot larger than Earth

That's just one of many that fans have used to conclude that, but FTR, Greg recently went ahead and confirmed it (but HOW bigger we still don't know).

Those were most likely the things AMEET kept in mind when they made the map, but it was promoted as simply "a map of the Matoran Universe"

Well, although not for money, I've been in situations where I had to market fiction and art and the like that I've produced, and I know all too well that if you feel you have to explain all the reasons for things like this, you just turn viewers off with walls of text. Usually it's better to just post it and let questions come up if they must -- many people seem to be able to intuitively get it (or logically think it through and get it on their own either way). And it is a map -- just not to scale in all respects. Ultimately since it's just fiction IMO it was okay to go simple and not explain it. :shrugs: If it was a map of Earth locations I would prefer at least a little disclaimer at the bottom of the image "not to scale" or something but we don't have to take it that seriously.

That map you made with the GSR and its domes is pretty neat, especially how you found an actual dome for the Northern Continent. I think the Southern Continent is still problematic though due to the hip joints, but there's no way to fix that IMO.

Actually other fans have proposed some resolutions of even that -- namely, put the SC in the lower part of the upper torso. I haven't bothered to make art showing it but some others have. It actually doesn't make the landmasses that much smaller to do that. I just didn't because I felt it was more of a stretch from the "map" we're talking about which does seem to imply it's in lower torso. Anywho.

Sorry I really gotta cut this off now so I haven't read your question for Greg. Will try to do that ASAP though. I will say though that massive paragraphs are generally bad. He tends to just skip questions that get that long (but not always).

Edit: Okay, reading question now.

We figured we'd consider which piece of Spherus Magna hit Teridax in the head: since the robot was hit by one of the pieces reforming Spherus Magna, it most likely landed somewhere near the place where this piece was heading; in other words, the robot is most likely in the north if it was hit by Bota Magna since Bota Magna is to the north of Bara Magna, while it is most likely somewhere in the southwest if it was hit by Aqua Magna since Aqua Magna is to the southwest of Bara Magna.

I guess I didn't realize this was the angle you were using to approach the question. I don't agree at all with this, because part of the reason Greg declined to answer which moon/fragment is canon for hitting the robot is that "it doesn't matter." This would force him to pick the Bota one over the Aqua, but the Aqua fragment makes much more sense for Metru Nui's survival in the images we have.

I think it makes way more sense, given the height of the giants, that the impact happened quite a bit before the moons landed, and they made several more orbits before landing, and thus the impact has nothing to do with location.

The Mata Nui Saga depicts Bota Magna (it says 'the jungle moon') hitting Teridax, but it also depicts the protagonists gathering with the Ignika at the end near some kind of sea or ocean.

Indeed -- and this argues against the logic that which moon hit determines where the giant ended up.

Keep in mind they both had to end up at poles -- so both must have come in at an orbital angle (perhaps not the original angle; the gravity attack redirected could perhaps alter their angles too, depending) aligned with the poles. So, both moons probably circled over both poles for a while. Both would be easily available to hit the robot, whether the robot was north or south. None of that matters.

You were asked several years ago about which moon hit Teridax and you explained that the idea of Bota Magna hitting him came from an outdated version of the story bible, while the miniscule Aqua Magna in the comic was in fact only a fragment of the moon. You said a fragment of Aqua Magna broke off when the moon entered the atmosphere and it was this fragment that hit Teridax. So based on that information, we theorized that the robot Teridax took over most likely fell in the north

I hate to be negative, but this seems to misrepresent what Greg said, since he ended up not picking one or the other. He might not remember that he did that, and might think from this that you're saying he picked Aqua as the canon hit. I was not basing my north/south logic on this at all, precisely because he didn't pick one or the other for which moon hit, and said it didn't matter. I'm saying north is more likely because the comic says this, so a source for Aqua hit and a source for Bota hit both agree it was north, and MNS doesn't actually say it was south, it just shows water and we have assumed that means it's south. :shrugs:

But notice that if you take out reliance on which moon hit in the logic, then Greg could just as easily say there's three universes -- the JE one (Bota hit robot, and robot was north), MNS (Bota hit, robot south, though your suggestion of course resolves this), and comic (Aqua fragment hit, robot north).

But I do somewhat base "preference" logic on Greg seeming to prefer the Aqua hit. Since that was the comic source, and comic says north... make sense? Just be clear that this doesn't make this one "the canon answer."

we theorized that the robot Teridax took over most likely fell in the north, crushing a part of the Black Spike Mountains, since the only sources that specify a location for Teridax (Journey's End and comic #7) say he was in the north, but the image of everybody standing with the Ignika near the ocean was near Aqua Magna in the southwest of Bara Magna, nowhere near the place where Teridax fell: Mata Nui might have walked from the Black Spike Mountains to Aqua Magna while he was creating plant life all over Bara Magna. It would make sense that he would walk around while doing this, since he was trying to cover the entire desert and his giant robot body wouldn't have made it very difficult for him.

This part seems fine. I would just cut the question down to this, if I were you (and also mention that that image you're talking about is from the Mata Nui Saga to be clear). There's no need to confuse him with the previous issue of which moon/fragment hit the giant robot, since he already clearly told us he wasn't going to pick one or the other.

If he says yes to this, then we can have all three sources agreeing that it fell to the north (I don't really care where it is, as long as it's one place, and this seems the best solution). Which moon actually hit can continue to not matter, but we could still have the robot in the same place "in both universes", so Rahi moving out would be in one place on Spherus Magna (at first ), the salvaging operations could be pinpointed, etc. and maybe even we could go on to get Greg to pick a spot for New Atero (assuming new Bionicle hasn't already done that).

Edited September 29, 2014 by bonesiii

fishers64 · September 29, 2014

As requested:

1) The Makuta robot is struck down by one of the falling moons. In the comic, it is colored blue and is presumably Aqua Magna. However, it is not bigger than the head of the robot, when only recently, that robot was standing on it. I presume that this is artistic license, and this is either a moon fragment entering orbit or that the moon, much larger, clipped the robot on the head as it continued to sail through the atmosphere and crash south. Can you please explain/confirm either of those theories?

1) Fragment -- it only makes sense that as a celestial body travels through space at the kind of speed it had to move to achieve this, parts would flake off.

I'm not sure I fully follow the rest of this discussion, but yeah.

**bonesiii** · September 29, 2014

Thanks, fishers.

Since my previous post was chaotic, long, and a lot of edits, lemme summarize:

1) I don't think which moon hit the giant robot should be involved at all in the question of where the robot landed.

2) In regards only to landing, we have three sources, two of which clearly state it was in the north, and one shows water (MNS).

3) Thormen's suggestion that after defeating the Makuta robot, Mata Nui walked south before collapsing, solves the issue, so all sources would agree the main robot crashed north, and the water is related to Mata Nui's walking, not the main robot's location.

Anyways, even though I don't think the "which moon hit" issue should be related, I bothered to dig this up so I might as well post it; this is a quote from a previous post of mine with Greg quotes:

In regards to which fragment/moon killed Makuta:

Quote
1. Teridax getting hit and killed by a fragment of Aqua Magna is the canon death for him, right?
1) It’s the one that makes most sense.

Quote

Quote
Hi Greg,
In one of your previous PM reported in Greg’s Official Dialogue, you said that Makuta’s robotic Head was hit by a fragment of Acqua Magna (as shown in the comics). Now in JE, as in Mata Nui’s Saga artwork, Makuta’s head is literally crashed by the Whole Bota Magna.

What has happened? You have changed your mind (and the book’s 10th Chapter) in the meanwhile?
Or the story was conceived as in JE from the start?
Please let us know..
Thanks
Luca S.
JE was written way before the comic was, and it was written to coordinate with Mata Nui Saga. The colorist for DC colored the moon blue in the comic, which is how the whole Aqua Magna thing got started.

Quote

Quote
Hello, Mr.Farshtey. I hope you are doing well. I just had a quick question about Makuta’s death. In the comic, he was hit by a fragment of Aqua Magna, but in both the Mata Nui Saga and the Journey’s End Novel, he is hit by Bota Magna. Which one is canon?
The original 2010 story bible simply says he was hit by one of the two other chunks of the planet. MNS and JE have it as Bota Magna, the comic colorist did it blue so it looked like Aqua Magna. The important point is that he was hit by a part of the one of the moons, not sure why it’s important which one it was.

Quote

1. Since the fragment that crashed Teridax’s head was confirmed by the MNS saga as Bota Magna while the comic doesn’t state which planet the fragment came from, that confirms that a Bota Magna frament, not an Aqua Magna, fragemnt hit Teridax’s head, right?
1) But I believe in the comic the fragment is colored blue, which is why people assumed it was Aqua Magna. Personally, I would simply say he was struck by an astral body - -which one it was is completely irrelevant to the story, really. If I pick up a rock and hit you with it, does it really matter WHICH rock it was?
1. Well, it would clarify which source (MNS or comic) was accurate.
1) Again, basically irrelevant. Two artistic interpretations of the same event, one where the fragment was blue, one where it was green, that’s basically it.
So, this is one of those issues Greg actually declined to pick one over the other and invokes the "comic universe" versus MNS/JE universe explanation, but he does agree that Aqua makes more sense, so I go with that. After all, the sources show Bota in its entirety, which should be fatal to Metru Nui inhabitants, but the comic version shows a fragment which makes Matoran survival more plausible. And that is the later source, so could be seen as a retcon.

Edited September 30, 2014 by bonesiii

Thormen · September 30, 2014

Technically an orbit is a constant falling, but since gravitational bodies are spherical (if big enough but you get the picture), they fall in a circle (really oval but it's round ), and end up never hitting it. Moons may have unstable orbits that gradually fall. Even if a moon is in the process of nearing the end of an unstable orbit and is already in the atmosphere, it's still orbiting, not falling directly. So technically if it completes an orbit or two around, as these probably did, then the fragment is a moon (whether it's in the atmosphere or not is irrelevant, and that may actually be debatable anyways since the giant's head is so high up, plus atmospheres don't actually have a solid edge but fade in).

[...]

I think it makes way more sense, given the height of the giants, that the impact happened quite a bit before the moons landed, and they made several more orbits before landing, and thus the impact has nothing to do with location.

I wasn't actually assuming the rejoining pieces of Spherus Magna made a full revolution or even two before they finally hit the surface, but I guess that makes sense if we consider Teridax getting hit by a fragment of Aqua Magna and falling on the Black Spike Mountains canon. I don't think that qualifies as being a moon though, since that would mean a meteorite making a revolution before impact also qualifies as a moon. An orbit can be described as a constantly falling motion, but that doesn't mean that everything that falls is in orbit the way a moon is. I think most astrophysicists wouldn't call a celestial object a moon if its orbit was so unstable that it would collide with the body it orbits around with a couple of years, let alone on the same day as the fragments of Spherus Magna were.

I think the root cause of the disagreement we're having here is that real world astrophysicists never bothered to think up a name for planet fragments that were pulled back into the planet by two giant robots

In that case, the figure that matters is the distance between Ko-Wahi (where one eye was under) and the Ga-Wahi bay (other eye), and the calculations show that even at that small, they do fit. The holes have to be more at the tear-duct locations than in the center of the eyes, but that's immaterial since the eyes reach all the way to the edge of the face, and we know they look close together in Metru Nui's sky so obviously the entire eyes were never the whole holes (pun not intended ). The island would have to be much smaller for it to actually be a problem.

I'm not saying the ratio of the GSR and the Mata Nui island is impossible storywise, I'm saying it's a substantially different ratio to the one used in the Mata Nui Rising video. I get that the GSR's sun holes can still be aligned with Ko-Wahi and the Naho Bay, but that doesn't change the fact that the GSR's head in the video should have been about 27 times as large (in terms of volume) as it was portrayed, or the island of Mata Nui should be about 9 times as small (in terms of area).

I'm rushed right now so I'm going to have to get back to you on this; maybe that's the only reason why I'm not following you here. But yeah, I don't see what you mean. Maybe the above clears it up.

Basically, the picture you linked to followed this line of reasoning:

1. The actual canon ratio [GSR's head's height]:[Mata Nui island's length] is 2:1 .

2. Therefore the actual GSR is twice as tall as the one depicted in the Mata Nui Rising video.

However, this is not sound reasoning because it assume the ratio [GSR's head's height]:[Mata Nui island's length] is 1:1 in the Mata Nui Rising video, which is not the case. This ratio is actually 2:3 . My line of reasoning is:

1. The actual canon ratio [GSR's head's height]:[Mata Nui island's length] is 2:1 .

2. The Mata Nui Rising video ratio [GSR's head's height]:[Mata Nui island's length] is 2:3 .

3. Therefore the ratio [MNR video GSR's height]:[actual canon GSR's height] is 1:3 .

And since we are talking about a face compared to an island, when we talk about size we should talk about area instead of length/height, meaning the ratio is 3 ^ 2 = 9 .

I'll try to post a picture explaining what I mean.

I would just cut the question down to this, if I were you (and also mention that that image you're talking about is from the Mata Nui Saga to be clear). There's no need to confuse him with the previous issue of which moon/fragment hit the giant robot, since he already clearly told us he wasn't going to pick one or the other.

OK, I didn't realize Greg didn't want to choose between the moons. Here's one where I got rid of all the references to that issue:

Hi Greg,

On BZP we've recently been discussing where the giant robot that Teridax took over might have landed after Teridax died. We know it's on Spherus Magna of course, but we were wondering where exactly. Journey's End says Teridax was driven to the north by Mata Nui, then one of the moons hit his head and he fell down on the Black Spike Mountains. Comic #7 also states the two robots were fighting in the north, but the Mata Nui Saga depicts the protagonists gathering with the Ignika at the end near some kind of sea or ocean, which suggests them being near Aqua Magna in the southwest, i.e. on the other side of Bara Magna. We theorized Mata Nui might have walked from the Black Spike Mountains to Aqua Magna while he was creating plant life all over Bara Magna. It would make sense that he would walk around while doing this, since he was trying to cover the entire desert and his giant robot body wouldn't have made it very difficult for him. We decided to run this theory by you:

1) Did Teridax's robot fall onto the Black Spike Mountains as detailed in Journey's End, after which Mata Nui walked with his robot to the shores of Aqua Magna on the other side of Bara Magna while creating new plant life?
2) If not, where exactly on Spherus Magna did Teridax's robot body land when he died?

Many thanks!

All in favor?

As requested:

1) The Makuta robot is struck down by one of the falling moons. In the comic, it is colored blue and is presumably Aqua Magna. However, it is not bigger than the head of the robot, when only recently, that robot was standing on it. I presume that this is artistic license, and this is either a moon fragment entering orbit or that the moon, much larger, clipped the robot on the head as it continued to sail through the atmosphere and crash south. Can you please explain/confirm either of those theories?

1) Fragment -- it only makes sense that as a celestial body travels through space at the kind of speed it had to move to achieve this, parts would flake off.

I'm not sure I fully follow the rest of this discussion, but yeah.

Thanks! I probably didn't find it since I was searching 'Teridax' (I initially assumed the quote must've been about where he fell as well).

**bonesiii** · September 30, 2014

I'm saying it's a substantially different ratio to the one used in the Mata Nui Rising video.

That was stated in the image. And it was pointed out that that is the only image that would have to be non-canon if both numbers are kept.

However, this is not sound reasoning because it assume the ratio [GSR's head's height]:[Mata Nui island's length] is 1:1 in the Mata Nui Rising video, which is not the case. This ratio is actually 2:3 . My line of reasoning is:

1. The actual canon ratio [GSR's head's height]:[Mata Nui island's length] is 2:1 .
2. The Mata Nui Rising video ratio [GSR's head's height]:[Mata Nui island's length] is 2:3 .
3. Therefore the ratio [MNR video GSR's height]:[actual canon GSR's height] is 1:3 .

I don't see where I was making any such assumption. It's nice that you measured out what the ratio in the MNRising vid is, but my image didn't have space to deal with that one way or the other, and it wasn't the issue I was addressing. All the image's calculations show is that the canon numbers we were given make the island about half the size of the head, and this is not the same size as you can see by eyeballing it in that one scene. It's true that if you wanted to align exactly with that image, it wouldn't be halving/doubling one of the things (not exactly), but that wasn't the point; the point was making the robot smaller to match the other number would still make Spherus Magna big, and that the eyeholes can still align if both numbers are kept.

And since we are talking about a face compared to an island, when we talk about size we should talk about area instead of length/height, meaning the ratio is 3 ^ 2 = 9 .

That would needlessly overcomplicate things, since actual area isn't determined by height times width on an island and shape of irregular shape... (Plus area oversimplifies the numbers; an island with radically different width compared to height could still have the same area; measuring both length and height shows that it's about half in both cases, so that the two shapes are good matches, just the wrong size.) With the numbers I used, it's easy to follow the math and it answers the question I set out to answer. Let's not overthink it, yeah?

Anywho, to question wording:

which suggests them being near Aqua Magna in the southwest

Why not just say south? I dunno where you're getting the west part from. (They might be somewhat to the west, might be somewhat to the east, might be due south, who knows?) Otherwise, the wording looks great. [Edit: You may be confusing the Great Sea / Aqua Magna for the Sea of Liquid Sand, which actually is to the southwest compared to the center of the Agori population. Also, even if they were to the west compared to (former?) Agori homes' spots, that's subjective; since AM is the south pole, it's all south from somewhere. ]

I just thought of a complication, though -- the actual image shows Tahu and several people. It seems implied they were just fighting the battle a moment ago right next to this spot; that must be why I concluded in the past that the battle and crash site took place near it (sorry I forgot it ). However, this can still be salvaged (but maybe it should be mentioned in the question to Greg), since Tahu/etc. would want to find the Mask of Life, and the solution still means that would fall near AM. And Tahu probably wouldn't want to make that journey alone, so that could be his scouting party, having left immediately from the victory in the war to the north. So, maybe add something about that?

Edit: Since we keep talking about this pic, let's actually post it here, heh:

http://biosector01.com/wiki/images/a/ae/Art_Tahu_with_Ignika.jpg

Edited September 30, 2014 by bonesiii

Thormen · September 30, 2014

I'm saying it's a substantially different ratio to the one used in the Mata Nui Rising video.
That was stated in the image. And it was pointed out that that is the only image that would have to be non-canon if both numbers are kept.

I guess you agree with me the height of the GSR in the MNR video differs a lot from the canon height.

I don't see where I was making any such assumption. It's nice that you measured out what the ratio in the MNRising vid is, but my image didn't have space to deal with that one way or the other, and it wasn't the issue I was addressing.

In the picture it says "just double the island, or halve the robot"... Well anyway, you seem to agree with me so this is kinda moot now then.

That would needlessly overcomplicate things, since actual area isn't determined by height times width on an island and shape of irregular shape... (Plus area oversimplifies the numbers; an island with radically different width compared to height could still have the same area; measuring both length and height shows that it's about half in both cases, so that the two shapes are good matches, just the wrong size.) With the numbers I used, it's easy to follow the math and it answers the question I set out to answer. Let's not overthink it, yeah?

You only run into those problems if you start comparing areas with different shapes. The Mata Nui island in the video and in canon both have the exact same shape, so the fact that the MNR version of the island is three times as long as the canon island (and therefore also three times as wide) means its area is 9 times as large. How do you think BS01 figured out the Mata Nui island is about 65 times as large as Metru Nui? We knew the length and width of the Mata Nui island and the length and width of Metru Nui, so they just divided those by each other and raised that ratio (about 8:1) to the power of two.

Why not just say south? I dunno where you're getting the west part from. (They might be somewhat to the west, might be somewhat to the east, might be due south, who knows?) Otherwise, the wording looks great. [Edit: You may be confusing the Great Sea / Aqua Magna for the Sea of Liquid Sand, which actually is to the southwest compared to the center of the Agori population. Also, even if they were to the west compared to (former?) Agori homes' spots, that's subjective; since AM is the south pole, it's all south from somewhere.

I said southwest because that's where BS01 says Aqua Magna is located with respect to Bara Magna. I think it's a good idea to be 100% accurate and avoid leaving future BZPers with the problem that BS01 says Aqua Magna is located in the southwest while Greg said the GSR fell in the south. However, that shouldn't really be a problem since the actual questions themselves ask if the GSR fell on the Black Spike Mountains and the Prototype Robot disintegrated near the shores of Aqua Magna.

I just thought of a complication, though -- the actual image shows Tahu and several people. It seems implied they were just fighting the battle a moment ago right next to this spot; that must be why I concluded in the past that the battle and crash site took place near it (sorry I forgot it ). However, this can still be salvaged (but maybe it should be mentioned in the question to Greg), since Tahu/etc. would want to find the Mask of Life, and the solution still means that would fall near AM. And Tahu probably wouldn't want to make that journey alone, so that could be his scouting party, having left immediately from the victory in the war to the north. So, maybe add something about that?

Edit: Since we keep talking about this pic, let's actually post it here, heh:

http://biosector01.com/wiki/images/a/ae/Art_Tahu_with_Ignika.jpg

Don't worry about that, comic #7 fixes it:

Hearts heavy, the Toa and Glatorian rush to the site.

**bonesiii** · September 30, 2014

I said southwest because that's where BS01 says Aqua Magna is located with respect to Bara Magna. I think it's a good idea to be 100% accurate and avoid leaving future BZPers with the problem that BS01 says Aqua Magna is located in the southwest

It's true that if you head southwest from the part of Bara Magna where the Agori we saw lived, you will run into Aqua Magna. But as I said, AM is the south pole of the planet; it's simply south. And Bara Magna is not the name simply of the region where the Agori lived, it's the entire chunk of SM other than the poles, like an olive without its holes. There's no "southwest of Bara Magna" because the region that became Bara Magna includes the entire equator and most of the rest of the planet, well beyond the region seen on the usual Bara Magna map. (Also, the BS01 page may be suffering from the same confusion with the SoLS there...)

Anywho, good point about the "rush to the site" line. That works. I'd still cut out "southwest" though and just say south. All we're worrying about here is north versus south; we're not trying to pinpoint an exact direction from the Agori population zone.

As for the MNRising thing, it sounds like you confused the point of the "just halve it" line for being intended to aim for that image. It wasn't; the image was made sequentially right to left, so when that part was added, the Rising image was not yet in view or being considered at all. It is included simply to show that by a glance (not fancymath ) you can tell it isn't the same size as what the official numbers give, and that thus if you keep those numbers, that scene has to be considered non-canon (and only that scene). Clear now?

Thormen · September 30, 2014

It's true that if you head southwest from the part of Bara Magna where the Agori we saw lived, you will run into Aqua Magna. But as I said, AM is the south pole of the planet; it's simply south. And Bara Magna is not the name simply of the region where the Agori lived, it's the entire chunk of SM other than the poles, like an olive without its holes. There's no "southwest of Bara Magna" because the region that became Bara Magna includes the entire equator and most of the rest of the planet, well beyond the region seen on the usual Bara Magna map.

Did Greg say Aqua Magna is the south pole? Because the thing about it being southwest from Bara Magna is really the only thing I can find on BS01. If it is the south pole, it can't possibly be southwest of any place on Spherus Magna because the south pole is by definition due south of every point on a globe.

I agree nothing can be southwest of the Bara Magna chunk of the planet because it covers the equator, but I'm simply basing myself on BS01 here. Most likely the line on BS01 is referring only to the part of Bara Magna we visited.

(Also, the BS01 page may be suffering from the same confusion with the SoLS there...)

Anywho, good point about the "rush to the site" line. That works. I'd still cut out "southwest" though and just say south. All we're worrying about here is north versus south; we're not trying to pinpoint an exact direction from the Agori population zone.

Good point about the SoLS, maybe it's safest to substitute "southwest" with "the other side" then? As opposed to where the Black Spike Mountains are. Or maybe "the other side of the desert we visited in 2009" to avoid the implication that Mata Nui literally walked to the polar opposite point on Spherus Magna.

As for the MNRising thing, it sounds like you confused the point of the "just halve it" line for being intended to aim for that image. It wasn't; the image was made sequentially right to left, so when that part was added, the Rising image was not yet in view or being considered at all. It is included simply to show that by a glance (not fancymath ) you can tell it isn't the same size as what the official numbers give, and that thus if you keep those numbers, that scene has to be considered non-canon (and only that scene). Clear now?

I think you mean left to right, but if that was the point of it I agreed all along.

So how about this?

Hi Greg,

On BZP we've recently been discussing where the giant robot that Teridax took over might have landed after Teridax died. We know it's on Spherus Magna of course, but we were wondering where exactly. Journey's End says Teridax was driven to the north by Mata Nui, then one of the moons hit his head and he fell down on the Black Spike Mountains. Comic #7 also states the two robots were fighting in the north, but the Mata Nui Saga depicts the protagonists gathering with the Ignika at the end near some kind of sea or ocean, which suggests them being near Aqua Magna, i.e. on the other side of the desert we visited in 2009. We theorized Mata Nui might have walked from the Black Spike Mountains to Aqua Magna while he was creating plant life all over Bara Magna. It would make sense that he would walk around while doing this, since he was trying to cover the entire desert and his giant robot body wouldn't have made it very difficult for him. We decided to run this theory by you:

1) Did Teridax's robot fall onto the Black Spike Mountains as detailed in Journey's End, after which Mata Nui walked with his robot to the shores of Aqua Magna on the other side of Bara Magna while creating new plant life?
2) If not, where exactly on Spherus Magna did Teridax's robot body land when he died?

Many thanks!

**bonesiii** · September 30, 2014

That works. I say go for it.

Thormen · September 30, 2014

I posted it, but it doesn't seem to appear... Perhaps it's awaiting approval or something? Anyway, should I have to repost it I need to wait an hour, although Greg is apparently online right now. So let's hope the post gets through to him somehow.

Edit: It's appeared now

Edited September 30, 2014 by Thormen

Boidoh · October 1, 2014

Hmm, while this is an interesting discussion, i am quite confused how the answer to this (where the MU robot died) relates to fikou canon. :0

I'm known as many things in this world, Rahkshi Lalonde. I'm known as that guy who tries to extort details I want to hear from Greg, I'm known as the guy who messed up canon for having Greg confirm that Bota and Aqua Magna had their own independent orbits around Solis Magna, but most of all, I am known as the Fikou Lover, and to a lesser extent "that guy who asks questions about obscure rahi".

So, a month ago Greg canonized a scenario I proposed that the Fikou are migrating to an area in which they have previously adapted to, of which the colors of the Fikou and location I have also had Greg canonized. So basically, I wanted to know which Fikou have already completed their migration. So far Greg only said that the brown/tan Fikou, which have adapted to desert regions, have completed their migration, as the desert is surrounding them. Because I don't know where the GSR landed, and neither does Greg he cannot answer the questions:

a) Did the Fikou that are migration die from creatures of SM or the terrain?

b) How many Fikou completed their migration, besides the desert-adapted ones?

He doesn't know, so he cannot answer.

All this for Fikou.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Boidoh

Thormen · October 1, 2014

I just checked some of your Fikou questions, Boidoh, and came across this quote:

5. If the waters in the MU would leak out would that make mutagen on SM?
5) It would be leaking out onto sand, so it probably wouldn't be an issue

I don't know what to make of this. I'm pretty sure Greg's reasoning here was "The GSR lies on Bara Magna, therefore anything that leaks out of it leaks onto sand.", which obviously doesn't work anymore since Mata Nui covered Bara Magna in plant life. He does seem to assume that the GSR fell a significant distance from Aqua Magna since there were never any sands on Aqua Magna. This would mean there is probably no new Pit Mutagen (only the leftovers from 2007 that must have dispersed greatly by now, the Swamp of Secrets was incinerated when Mata Nui awoke), since it only forms when the energies of Karda Nui come into contact with the H2O waters on Aqua Magna. Luckily the hypothetical wording of both the question and the answer mean that Greg isn't actually saying that there is new Pit Mutagen leaking out, just that it wouldn't be an issue if it were.

Now I've been thinking and there is a way to get around the sand thing. Here's what comic #7 says about how Mata Nui created new plant life on Bara Magna:

Bathed in the power of life, the desert of Bara Magna blooms.

Note that it doesn't literally say every square centimeter of the desert blooms. Although the bathing part does loosely imply that, it never actually says this.

And here's what Journey's End says:

A moment later, Mata Nui felt the power of the mask merge with what little remained of his own. Then he willed that power to flow from his body and sweep across the planet. Everywhere it touched, mountains rose, forests flourished, life appeared where none had been before. In the desert of Bara Magna, time seemed to flow backwards as barren sand gave way to a jungle teeming with trees, plants, and long dead rivers returned to life.

Journey's End says that forests flourished and mountains rose everywhere Mata Nui's power touched, but it never says his power touches everywhere on the planet (although again, the part about it sweeping across the planet loosely implies it).

And finally the Mata Nui Saga:

With a final burst of power, I complete my destiny. The Mask of Life draws from the last of the power supply, causing vegetation to flourish, water seep to the surface, mountains rise, sand turn to fertile soil. The splendor that was Spherus Magna blossoms once again, and I feel myself fading...

None of the sources actually say every square centimeter of Bara Magna was covered in flora, even if they loosely imply it. It is certainly possible that Mata Nui left out a part of the desert when creating the new flora. There are actually a couple of good reasons for him to do so regarding the desert immediately surrounding the GSR:

1) If there were a lot of plants growing at hyperspeed in the direct vicinity of the GSR, they might grow on the GSR as well and/or block its exits. Mata Nui cares about the MU inhabitants, he wouldn't want them to be trapped inside a decomposing GSR.

2) Many areas in the direct vicinity of the GSR are constantly, or almost constantly, covered by the shadow the GSR is casting. And I'm not talking about the kind of shadow that a wall or a building casts outside, because those shadows are so small a lot of light disperses into them, which is why the ground is never pitch black in the shade of a building. The GSR is massive however, so the amount of light that would disperse into its shadow is a LOT smaller, meaning these areas are in fact pitch black (compare to the shadow the Earth casts, i.e. night. When you're away from a city, nights can get really, really dark). Most plant life uses photosynthesis and is therefore dependent upon sunlight to grow, the relatively small number of plants that doesn't use photosynthesis is actually parasitic and requires other (photosynthetic) plants in its vicinity to survive. If Mata Nui were to let the dark areas of the GSR blossom with this new plant life, these plants would quickly die and start rotting. Not exactly what Mata Nui was intending when he gave new life to the planet.

So my idea would be: Mata Nui left a little desert silhouette around the robot for these reasons, and therefore any mutagen that would hypothetically leak from the robot would land in the sands of this desert.

I posted our questions yesterday but there's a chance they get buried and I have to post them again. I'm thinking if that's the case it might be a good idea to add something about this issue as well. Probably something like this:

Hi Greg,

These questions probably got buried, and in any case I have had to add some details to them.

On BZP we've recently been discussing where the giant robot that Teridax took over might have landed after Teridax died. We know it's on Spherus Magna of course, but we were wondering where exactly. Journey's End says Teridax was driven to the north by Mata Nui, then one of the moons hit his head and he fell down on the Black Spike Mountains. Comic #7 also states the two robots were fighting in the north, but the Mata Nui Saga depicts the protagonists gathering with the Ignika at the end near some kind of sea or ocean, which suggests them being near Aqua Magna, i.e. on the other side of the desert we visited in 2009. On page 403 of this chat you told Boidoh that if the mutagen we saw in the Pit in 2007 were to leak from the robot body that Teridax took over, it probably wouldn't be an issue since it would leak into the sands, suggesting that the robot is not near Aqua Magna. We theorized Mata Nui might have walked from the Black Spike Mountains to Aqua Magna while he was creating plant life all over Bara Magna. It would make sense that he would walk around while doing this, since he was trying to cover most of the desert and his giant robot body wouldn't have made it very difficult for him. We decided to run this theory by you:

1) Did Teridax's robot fall onto the Black Spike Mountains as detailed in Journey's End, after which Mata Nui walked with his robot to the shores of Aqua Magna on the other side of Bara Magna while creating new plant life?
2) If not, where exactly on Spherus Magna did Teridax's robot body land when he died?

Also, on the subject of the mutagen leaking into the sands of Bara Magna: to our understanding no new mutagen should be created as long as the robot body stays away from Aqua Magna, since the mutagen is created when the energies of Karda Nui radiate onto the waters of Aqua Magna. So since the Swamp of Secrets was incinerated when Mata Nui awoke, it is not possible for any mutagen to leak from the robot. Luckily that's not an issue since the question and the answer were formulated hypothetically (if any mutagen were to leak, it would land in the sands of Bara Magna; this doesn't necessarily mean that there actually is mutagen leaking). However, the part about it landing in the sand is a little confusing since Bara Magna was covered in plant life by Mata Nui and the Ignika. We theorized Mata Nui might have left a little part of desert around the robot Teridax took over because he didn't want any plants to block the Matoran Universe's exits and thusly trap its inhabitants inside, and also because many areas in the direct vicinity of the robot are now (almost) perpetually covered in shadow (and given the size of the robot this really means pitch black shadow), which would cause any plants that grew there to quickly die and start rotting. We also wanted to run this theory by you:

3) Did Mata Nui leave a little desert (kinda like a silhouette) around the robot Teridax took over because he didn't want to trap the inhabitants of the Matoran Universe inside and he didn't want the plants to end up in the robot's shadow, die and start rotting?

Many thanks!

**bonesiii** · October 1, 2014

I just checked some of your Fikou questions, Boidoh, and came across this quote:

Chat with Greg Farshtey page #403 said
Quote
5. If the waters in the MU would leak out would that make mutagen on SM?
5) It would be leaking out onto sand, so it probably wouldn't be an issue
I don't know what to make of this. I'm pretty sure Greg's reasoning here was "The GSR lies on Bara Magna, therefore anything that leaks out of it leaks onto sand.", which obviously doesn't work anymore since Mata Nui covered Bara Magna in plant life.

Well, it might not work (since the plants might get mutated), but Greg didn't say there aren't plants; all he said is that there is sand, which is true. He might mean the protowater would just seep down through the sand easily, or something, and be less likely to hit anything like plants over a wider area like it might if that material was more tightly packed soil? :shrugs:

Or maybe the Mask of Life didn't make the plants go right up to the main giant robot, perhaps so they wouldn't get in the way of salvaging operations? Your other ideas make sense too.

This would mean there is probably no new Pit Mutagen (only the leftovers from 2007 that must have dispersed greatly by now, the Swamp of Secrets was incinerated when Mata Nui awoke), since it only forms when the energies of Karda Nui come into contact with the H2O waters on Aqua Magna. Luckily the hypothetical wording of both the question and the answer mean that Greg isn't actually saying that there is new Pit Mutagen leaking out, just that it wouldn't be an issue if it were.

Do we know that only real water combined with Karda Nui's energies makes the mutagen? Real water is what was available due to the hole Voya Nui made (holes actually), but protowater might too. In any event, it seems unlikely either real water or protowater would be in that situation again now, esp. since the heart isn't operating now. So yeah.

Thormen · October 1, 2014

Well, it might not work (since the plants might get mutated), but Greg didn't say there aren't plants; all he said is that there is sand, which is true. He might mean the protowater would just seep down through the sand easily, or something, and be less likely to hit anything like plants over a wider area like it might if that material was more tightly packed soil?

The problem with that is that he made a conditional statement: if mutagen were to leak, it would leak onto the sands. If that statement is true then the plants would either have to have some kind of mechanism to evade any leaking mutagen, or there would have to be no plants at all.

Do we know that only real water combined with Karda Nui's energies makes the mutagen? Real water is what was available due to the hole Voya Nui made (holes actually), but protowater might too. In any event, it seems unlikely either real water or protowater would be in that situation again now, esp. since the heart isn't operating now. So yeah.

I remember reading that only real water would mutate in the Official 2007 Discussion Topic (or possible 2008) but that's gone now so that can't be verified anymore. BS01 says the Pit Mutagen was created when the energies radiated onto salt water of the Aqua Magna ocean specifically, though it doesn't rule out Liquid Protodermis being affected as well. I'd consider that highly unlikely though, since that would seem like a serious design flaw of the GSR. If one of the radiation sources wasn't properly isolated (or the GSR was damaged as in the Great Cataclysm) the Silver Seas could slowly but steadily turn into mutagen and then more and more inhabitants would get mutated. The victims would have no way to revert other than waiting for either a destined Toa who could use the Ignika to cure them or waiting for Mata Nui himself to do the job, and then the leak still wouldn't be fixed and the process would start over again. Eventually all the Matoran would become water breathers and be forced to evacuate places like Metru Nui, and Mata Nui would lapse into a coma because no one is performing the work he needs to stay awake. I'd think the Great Beings would try to avoid such a design flaw as much as possible.

Edit: I think we've run into a dead end here:

Hi Greg,

On BZP we've recently been discussing where the giant robot that Teridax took over might have landed after Teridax died. We know it's on Spherus Magna of course, but we were wondering where exactly. Journey's End says Teridax was driven to the north by Mata Nui, then one of the moons hit his head and he fell down on the Black Spike Mountains. Comic #7 also states the two robots were fighting in the north, but the Mata Nui Saga depicts the protagonists gathering with the Ignika at the end near some kind of sea or ocean, which suggests them being near Aqua Magna, i.e. on the other side of the desert we visited in 2009. We theorized Mata Nui might have walked from the Black Spike Mountains to Aqua Magna while he was creating plant life all over Bara Magna. It would make sense that he would walk around while doing this, since he was trying to cover the entire desert and his giant robot body wouldn't have made it very difficult for him. We decided to run this theory by you:

1) Did Teridax's robot fall onto the Black Spike Mountains as detailed in Journey's End, after which Mata Nui walked with his robot to the shores of Aqua Magna on the other side of Bara Magna while creating new plant life?
2) If not, where exactly on Spherus Magna did Teridax's robot body land when he died?

Many thanks!
Yes, someone asked this the other day. I don't have this info.

Could be he doesn't want to say anything about issues he only vaguely remembers. Could be it's something we'll find out next year... Who knows? Edited October 1, 2014 by Thormen

**bonesiii** · October 1, 2014

If that statement is true then the plants would either have to have some kind of mechanism to evade any leaking mutagen, or there would have to be no plants at all.

Or there would be plants but since not a lot of them get mutated if most of the water seeps down into the sands it isn't really a problem for the planet as a whole.

In other news, Greg has replied:

Thormmen wrote:
Hi Greg,

On BZP we've recently been discussing where the giant robot that Teridax took over might have landed after Teridax died. We know it's on Spherus Magna of course, but we were wondering where exactly. Journey's End says Teridax was driven to the north by Mata Nui, then one of the moons hit his head and he fell down on the Black Spike Mountains. Comic #7 also states the two robots were fighting in the north, but the Mata Nui Saga depicts the protagonists gathering with the Ignika at the end near some kind of sea or ocean, which suggests them being near Aqua Magna, i.e. on the other side of the desert we visited in 2009. We theorized Mata Nui might have walked from the Black Spike Mountains to Aqua Magna while he was creating plant life all over Bara Magna. It would make sense that he would walk around while doing this, since he was trying to cover the entire desert and his giant robot body wouldn't have made it very difficult for him. We decided to run this theory by you:

1) Did Teridax's robot fall onto the Black Spike Mountains as detailed in Journey's End, after which Mata Nui walked with his robot to the shores of Aqua Magna on the other side of Bara Magna while creating new plant life?
2) If not, where exactly on Spherus Magna did Teridax's robot body land when he died?

Many thanks!
Yes, someone asked this the other day. I don't have this info.

So I guess we're out of luck.

I'd still go with north, I guess, since two sources actually say it, and MNS doesn't actually say south. We might wanna look through all the actual fight images in MNS carefully though -- if we see no ocean (I don't think there is), then MNS would still support your theory about the walking for plantmaking.

Boidoh · October 1, 2014

Erm, don't we have a planet view of Spherus Magna?

I personally think it landed where you see the desert here:

http://biosector01.com/wiki/images/0/01/AOSR_Spherus_Magna.png

Didn't Greg say a million times that Teridax died around the desert sands, on the LMB?

**bonesiii** · October 2, 2014

Boidoh, that image is clearly non-canon; the Great Sea there is way, way too big. It's just a small ocean making up the southern pole region canonically. We don't know if that tan-colored area is related to any canon location, or even if it's the same side as the Agori zone we've seen.

I'm not sure what you're asking in the rest. Pretty much all of Bara Magna is sand (formerly desert, at the time of the crash).

**Nidhiki of the Shadows** · October 2, 2014

Speaking of which, how big is Spherus Magna? Cause I am assuming the MU robot is freakin' massive.

-NotS

Thormen · October 2, 2014

Or there would be plants but since not a lot of them get mutated if most of the water seeps down into the sands it isn't really a problem for the planet as a whole.

I was intially inclined to disagree with you there since the quote doesn't mention any plants but I looked it over again and I'm thinking the quote is really to vague to draw conclusions like that. So yeah, maybe this isn't an issue.

I'd still go with north, I guess, since two sources actually say it, and MNS doesn't actually say south. We might wanna look through all the actual fight images in MNS carefully though -- if we see no ocean (I don't think there is), then MNS would still support your theory about the walking for plantmaking.

I agree: north is what the sources say, with the caveat that 2010 sources don't necessarily agree with each other.

I looked them over and didn't see water in any of the fighting images, although there tends to be a vague bluish haze in some of the pictures. Chapter 23 shows Matoro falling down towards the Swamp of Secrets and after that we don't see any water until chapter 33, when the fight is already over and Mata Nui rejuvenates the planet.

Didn't Greg say a million times that Teridax died around the desert sands, on the LMB?

The Makuta died in the desert: he was standing on Bara Magna when he was hit in the head, and at that time Bara Magna was one big desert. We don't need to check the LMB to know that for sure. However, Mata Nui subsequently sent the energies of his Prototype Robot and the Ignika sweeping over the planet and caused plants to grow all over Bara Magna. In other words, the fact that the Makuta died in a location that was at that time desert doesn't mean that that location is still desert.

Speaking of which, how big is Spherus Magna? Cause I am assuming the MU robot is freakin' massive.

-NotS

It is freakin' massive. Basically, what we know is:

1) The Great Spirit Robot is about 12,000 km tall, which is comparable to the diameter of the Earth.

2) The Great Spirit Robot crashed on Aqua magna and, lying on its back, mostly disappeared under its surface. Aqua Magna therefore has to be significantly larger than Earth, and its ocean significantly deeper. I'm guessing around 200 times as deep as the Mariana Trench, which is the deepest part of the oceans on Earth.

3) After the Shattering, Bara Magna drew both Aqua Magna and Bota Magna into orbit, which means Bara Magna should be a lot larger than those two moons. This is also supported by numerous images of the three chunks of Spherus Magna in space.

4) Spherus Magna is composed of Bara Magna, Aqua Magna and Bota Magna and is therefore the size of these three bodies COMBINED.

I'd guess somewhere in between the size of Jupiter and the size of the sun.

**bonesiii** · October 2, 2014

Speaking of which, how big is Spherus Magna? Cause I am assuming the MU robot is freakin' massive.

-NotS

Greg has not given us a number and IMO that is very wise. I wish he hadn't given us a number for the giant robot size either but just some ballpark idea (like bigger than a continent since it contains two of them). Problem with doing that is once you commit to a number, we can use it to start an analysis that has a high likelihood of leading to noticing logistical issues. If you just leave it to imagination, fans are free to just pick something that sounds reasonable to them, and those of us who like to think through logistics are free to theorize actually good numbers if we wish.

We do know it's bigger than Earth. Canon images seem to show it as much bigger, which is why I had theorized that whole thing about gravity over a certain level being absorbed so it's earthlike gravity regardless. Aqua Magna, too, is shown as way bigger (the giant robot is comparable to Earth's size), so Bara/Spherus should be more like Jupiter or a small star. Unfortunately Greg has turned down that theory and canonized a suggestion that it has stronger gravity than Earth (despite no such behavior being shown in any source). Long story; there are solutions to that too, but I'll close off this tangent here unless somebody wants to know more.

I looked them over and didn't see water in any of the fighting images, although there tends to be a vague bluish haze in some of the pictures.

That is probably meant to be atmospheric bluing. Or it could also be the SoLS. :shrugs: Could you link one?

*reads on to see that you Ninja'd me partly on size of SM...* oh well lol

Boidoh · October 2, 2014

Speaking of which, how big is Spherus Magna? Cause I am assuming the MU robot is freakin' massive.

-NotS

It is freakin' massive. Basically, what we know is:

1) The Great Spirit Robot is about 12,000 km tall, which is comparable to the diameter of the Earth.

2) The Great Spirit Robot crashed on Aqua magna and, lying on its back, mostly disappeared under its surface. Aqua Magna therefore has to be significantly larger than Earth, and its ocean significantly deeper. I'm guessing around 200 times as deep as the Mariana Trench, which is the deepest part of the oceans on Earth.

3) After the Shattering, Bara Magna drew both Aqua Magna and Bota Magna into orbit, which means Bara Magna should be a lot larger than those two moons. This is also supported by numerous images of the three chunks of Spherus Magna in space.

4) Spherus Magna is composed of Bara Magna, Aqua Magna and Bota Magna and is therefore the size of these three bodies COMBINED.

I'd guess somewhere in between the size of Jupiter and the size of the sun.

------------

Erm, I messed that up. Blame the Wii U.

Do I have to say this a MILLION times!? Bota and Aqua Magna orbit Solis Magna and are PLANETS!!!!

**bonesiii** · October 2, 2014

Do I have to say this a MILLION times!? Bota and Aqua Magna orbit Solis Magna and are PLANETS! !!!

Please see here:

http://www.bzpower.com/board/topic/11221-official-greg-compendium/?p=722807

Greg basically has admitted that when he said that, he forgot the canon already called them moons, so most people seem to have assumed we should go with the original canonical description, which had almost no problems, but calling them planets with separate orbits may cause many problems, as shown by my post here and following discussion:

http://www.bzpower.com/board/topic/11221-official-greg-compendium/?p=722555

Regardless, Thormen's point had nothing to do with what they orbit; it was about size, so this is off-topic. If you prefer to go with the planet definition, just translate "moon" in your head.

Edited October 2, 2014 by bonesiii

Where did the GSR crash on Bara Magna?

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