Extent of a Toa of Iron's Powers?

[Shadow Destroyer]

So, I have a bit of a discussion question involving the Toa of Iron's powers. Here's what it says about their elemental powers on BionicleSector01:

 

 

A Toa of Iron's Elemental power gave them near-perfect command over metal. As such, at a basic level, they could create, control, and absorb iron and other metals. Examples of this included creating metals, controlling the shape and form of metal structures, and even absorbing iron. Toa of Iron naturally possessed a greater level of endurance than other Elemental types of Toa; Toa of Iron possessed all these abilities on a vastly greater level than a Turaga or Matoran of Iron.

 

There were only a few Toa of Iron because the Makuta killed many of the Toa of Iron and Toa of Magnetism because the powers these Toa wield posed a threat to them; these kinds of Toa could simply rip open a Makuta's armor, letting their antidermis simply dissipate, killing the Makuta.

 

 

Also, Bioniclesector01 says a Toa of Iron can control metallic Protodermis:

 

Metallic: Refined Protodermis in the form of metal. It is very strong and durable, and makes up all metal in the Matoran Universe, from the mechanical parts of the inhabitants to robots to buildings. Can be manipulated by Toa of Iron.

 

So technically, any Toa of Iron can just rip their opponent apart, right? How many mechanical parts are actually contained within a being? I started thinking of this while watching Legend of Korra the other day when this scene happened: (Yakone Bloodbending - Video) Could a Toa of Iron technically do something similar to this to another being?

Edited October 1, 2014 by Shadow Destroyer

[Toa Chuck]

Theoretically yes. But they don't because of the Toa code. But thats why the makuta eliminated them all just in case,

[Shadow Destroyer]

Theoretically yes. But they don't because of the Toa code. But thats why the makuta eliminated them all just in case,

 

Hmm... So that technically means that a Toa of Iron has the power of possession? They just don't use it?

[Boidoh]

Yeah, they can control the mechanical components of other beings.

 

And that is exactly why the Makuta killed them out, because of their evolution into gaseous Antidermis, they were vulnerable if their armour was pierced. The Toa of Iron could just rip them apart, and their antidermis would leak out. 

[Shadow Destroyer]

Yeah, they can control the mechanical components of other beings.

 

And that is exactly why the Makuta killed them out, because of their evolution into gaseous Antidermis, they were vulnerable if their armour was pierced. The Toa of Iron could just rip them apart, and their antidermis would leak out. 

 

Not all of them were killed however, because I remember there being a Toa of Iron in one of the serials.

 

Really, I'm just confused that this ability of theirs never got highlighted anywhere. It would've made a really cool plot point I think.

[shadow pridak money gang]

Because there were a lot of new elements and elemental backstories hashed into the serials in the last two or three years of the original Bionicle run and there wasn't a lot of time for most of the finer points to get highlighted - see everything involving Magnetism and Gravity.

 

Technically, a Toa of Iron could do a lot in the MU, yeah, considering their understanding of metals and manipulation of those metals is the same as ours. But we'll never quite know what.

 

-Tyler

[believe victims]

Their name is a bit misleading; they're more like Toa of Metal. If they could only control iron, they'd be completely useless in the entirely-protodermis MU.

[Shadow Destroyer]

Their name is a bit misleading; they're more like Toa of Metal. If they could only control iron, they'd be completely useless in the entirely-protodermis MU.

 

So basically, they are Toa of Solidified Protodermis. 

[Mjolnitor]

 

Their name is a bit misleading; they're more like Toa of Metal. If they could only control iron, they'd be completely useless in the entirely-protodermis MU.

 

So basically, they are Toa of Solidified Protodermis. 

 

But what are earth and stone then?

Edited October 2, 2014 by Mjolnitor

[bonesiii]

 

 

Their name is a bit misleading; they're more like Toa of Metal. If they could only control iron, they'd be completely useless in the entirely-protodermis MU.

 

So basically, they are Toa of Solidified Protodermis. 

 

But what are earth and stone then?

 

Not metal.

[Regitnui]

Precisely. Toa of Iron control Protosteel (and silver parts) while the Toa of Stone and Earth control dirt as independent rocks and the planet respectively.

 

Actually, I think the Earth/Stone elemental distinction is a hazy and pointless one, with Iron being a much more distinctive alternative.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Regitnui

[Toa of Italy]

I don't believe most Toa of Iron have enough skill with their powers to achieve 'possession', as you call it, or to rip an enemy apart. If that were possible, then Toa of Water could dehydrate an enemy instantly, Toa of Air could suck their air right out of their lungs, Toa of Fire could boil them from inside-out and Toa of Ice freeze them in the same way excetera. 

 

Maybe this is a consequence of them following the Toa Code, but I don't think so. I believe it to be more likely that the MU inhabitants organic tissue somehow shields their inner organs and components from manipulation of this kind, perhaps by making them very hard to perceive even for a Toa (they know they are there, but they can't actually 'feel' them and so they can't affect them). A Toa of Iron, therefore, could only destroy exterior armor. A Makuta would still be in danger from such an attack, since their physical bodies are only made out of exterior armor.

 

I don't rule out that a very experienced Toa could actually achieve these things, but they would have to be very skilled (on Helryx's level, or perhaps Tuyet's when she uses the Nui Stone). 

[fishers64]

 

Their name is a bit misleading; they're more like Toa of Metal. If they could only control iron, they'd be completely useless in the entirely-protodermis MU.

 

So basically, they are Toa of Solidified Protodermis. 

 

Metallic protodermis, to be more precise. Also they can't control organic stuff, or earth and stone.

 

While these Toa were hunted by the Makuta, they are actually probably not that powerful, given how much of the MU is natural-looking. They would be extremely powerful in a factory such as Xia, but in most of the universe they would have to create iron using EE at a drain to themselves, leaving them at a disadvantage in a long fight against a wielder of the natural environment.   

[Thormen]

The Yesterday Quest addresses most of these issues:

 

Onua sighed, ready to unleash an earth tremor to knock them both back to the sandy ground. He needn’t have bothered. The third Toa present, ZARIA, made a gesture and both Toa dropped like rocks.

 

[...]

 

ZARIA was a different case altogether. He was one of the last of the Toa of Iron, having seen most of his friends killed by Makuta. Somehow, he had survived the purge, even managing to destroy one member of the Brotherhood. It had been necessary, but also a violation of the Toa code against killing. It was believed that the experience left ZARIA feeling like an outcast, in more ways than one. There were rumors that he began routinely slaying his enemies, but no one was certain if that was the truth.

[bonesiii]

I don't believe most Toa of Iron have enough skill with their powers to achieve 'possession', as you call it, or to rip an enemy apart. If that were possible, then Toa of Water could dehydrate an enemy instantly, Toa of Air could suck their air right out of their lungs, Toa of Fire could boil them from inside-out and Toa of Ice freeze them in the same way excetera.

But they can do all that... Do you really think Tahu's flames, which melt rock, somehow become impotent if blasted directly at organic protodermis?

 

And Kopaka has been shown freezing people repeatedly -- a usage which is allowed because it is (by itself) nonfatal.

[Shadow Destroyer]

 

I don't believe most Toa of Iron have enough skill with their powers to achieve 'possession', as you call it, or to rip an enemy apart. If that were possible, then Toa of Water could dehydrate an enemy instantly, Toa of Air could suck their air right out of their lungs, Toa of Fire could boil them from inside-out and Toa of Ice freeze them in the same way excetera.

But they can do all that... Do you really think Tahu's flames, which melt rock, somehow become impotent if blasted directly at organic protodermis?

 

And Kopaka has been shown freezing people repeatedly -- a usage which is allowed because it is (by itself) nonfatal.

 

 

But they don't do that because of the Toa code, right? So I'm guessing controlling an enemies body or ripping an enemy apart would be against the code as well for a Toa of Iron?

[fishers64]

Controlling, definitely not. Ripping apart is kind of fuzzy because they can reassemble themselves, so ripping an enemy apart might not be fatal. (Unless it's a Makuta, in which case it likely is.)

[bonesiii]

But they don't do that because of the Toa code, right?

Yes, as discussed earlier.

 

So I'm guessing controlling an enemies body or ripping an enemy apart would be against the code as well for a Toa of Iron?

Controlling is debatable IMO. Depends on if they felt it was similar to the immoral mask powers. But Mind Control literally controls you and wasn't deemed one of those, so I dunno.

 

Ripping apart... what fishers said... but if of the violent sort, they presumably wouldn't do that unless they had no other choice and it wouldn't be fatal.

[Regitnui]

A Toa of Iron van and will pin you to the ground. Stronger opponents could be hobbled of even crippled.by the same simple method. Possession is kind of unnecessary. As for the Komau, I think that any opponent worthy of the name can fight off mind control pretty quickly, if they're even susceptible to it at all, like the Vahki or Bohrok.

[Shadow Destroyer]

Posession is unecessary? You could totally use it to have them stab themselves, or attack their friends. Seems like a useful skill to me...

[Thormen]

A Toa of Iron van and will pin you to the ground. Stronger opponents could be hobbled of even crippled.by the same simple method. Possession is kind of unnecessary.

Posession is unecessary? You could totally use it to have them stab themselves, or attack their friends. Seems like a useful skill to me...

This is again limited by the Toa Code: yes they can get their opponents to stab themselves or attack their friends, but they're going to have to make sure it doesn't kill them. But I agree possession is not unnecessary, there are millions of things you could want your enemies to do. The scene in MNOLG where Lewa gets the Nui-Kopen and the Nui-Rama to transport the Le-Koronans back to Le-Koro is an example.

 

There are differences though: Mind Control can be resisted by a strong mind or by your morals, while a Toa of iron's powers can't (I'm inclined to think they can be resisted by strong muscles actually). Also Toa of iron can only control the metallic parts of someone's body, which doesn't make that much difference in a world of biomechanical MUans and Bara Magnans with metallic bone structure, but there are some notable exceptions. I'm pretty sure Kalmah's tentacle was fully organic and for all the Makuta's weaknesses against Toa of iron, they can still use their Shadow Hand. Then there are also organic Rahi, such as the Sea Squid. But I think the most important difference is that a Toa of iron could really only control the movements of his victims, while BIONICLE characters have so many non-physical powers (Elemental Powers, Kanohi masks, etc.) that a competent Komau bearer could hijack.

 

As for the Komau, I think that any opponent worthy of the name can fight off mind control pretty quickly, if they're even susceptible to it at all, like the Vahki or Bohrok.

Well that depends on what you mean by 'worthy of the name', but it also appears to depend on how strong the Komau bearer himself is:

 

The Noble version cannot control beings as mentally strong as the user as long as the Great version can.

[Jonathan Crane]

I've always thought Earth was the most powerful ability, since stone, fire, metal, air, and water are all found inside the ground.

 

Anyway, in MoL, Kopaka freezes Tahu completely, and turns him into an ice sculpture. I've wondered if Toa of Iron could do the same, and therefore control other beings. Anyone else thought that?

[Regitnui]

A Fe-Toa couldn't turn someone into an ice sculpture, but they could pull the Han Solo in Carbonite trick, turning their opponent into a metal sculpture.

[Jonathan Crane]

A Fe-Toa couldn't turn someone into an ice sculpture, but they could pull the Han Solo in Carbonite trick, turning their opponent into a metal sculpture.

that's what I meant earlier

[Archon~]

I think that that would kill your target as you cut off air, but you don't suspend any of their bodily processes like Kopaka does. Its like being made into a Stone sculpture. One doesn't tend to survive very long like that.

[Regitnui]

Well, these are biomechanical beings. While most would need air, robots like the maxilos, bohrok, fohrok and rahkshi are fair game for a tactic like that. I'm not sure if the Toa Code permits killing Rahi, but he carbonite trick could work well worth them too.

[Archon~]

Well, these are biomechanical beings. While most would need air, robots like the maxilos, bohrok, fohrok and rahkshi are fair game for a tactic like that. I'm not sure if the Toa Code permits killing Rahi, but he carbonite trick could work well worth them too.

I think the Kraata and Krana still need air cuz they are organic and all that, but yes I'm sure that would work on most robots as long as it doesn't damage internal processes in any way.

[Regitnui]

Organic=/= needing air. Anaerobic bacteria in real life actually find air toxic. Kraata aren't even technically alive, being more like condensed Makuta-mist. krana are iffy, but since they're packed into the Bohrok head-shell, they might not need air either.

[Archon~]

Organic=/= needing air. Anaerobic bacteria in real life actually find air toxic. Kraata aren't even technically alive, being more like condensed Makuta-mist. krana are iffy, but since they're packed into the Bohrok head-shell, they might not need air either.

"Real life physics don't apply to Bionicle"

With that, I think we can put anaerobic bacteria aside. There are characters who breathe water, which, last time I checked isn't something most (if any) Earth organism do.

Anyway, while Antidermis is condensed into an organic form it needs air to survive as it functions like organic Protodermis. Makuta needed air before they evolved, just like Kraata still do.

And thinking it over, I want to say Krana are an interesting example, since we know they pilot the water Bohrok, so yah idk, but my point for Kraata still stands.

[Jonathan Crane]

another question: could protodermis be controlled by a toa of Water, or a Toa of Iron?

[Regitnui]

There are characters who breathe water, which, last time I checked isn't something most (if any) Earth organism does.

Fish? Many aquatic arthropods? Young amphibians? Phyto- and zooplankton? Near on 70% of all creatures that have and do exist? What do you think gills are for? Decoration? Every animal I mentioned above breathes water, so you've just shot yourself in the foot with that point.

 

Also, whether something needs air or not is irrelevant to whether it is organic. Neural and muscle tissue require oxygen (or similarly reactive elements) to function, but that is real-world science, and as you say, "real world physics do not apply to bionicle."

 

another question: could protodermis be controlled by a toa of Water, or a Toa of Iron?

Metallic protodermis can be controlled by a Fe-Toa. Liquid protodermis by a Ga-Toa. Solidified protodermis by an Onu- or Po-Toa. Frozen protodermis by a Ko-Toa. So the answer is both yes and no.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Regitnui

[Archon~]

 

There are characters who breathe water, which, last time I checked isn't something most (if any) Earth organism does.

Fish? Many aquatic arthropods? Young amphibians? Phyto- and zooplankton? Near on 70% of all creatures that have and do exist? What do you think gills are for? Decoration? Every animal I mentioned above breathes water, so you've just shot yourself in the foot with that point.

 

Also, whether something needs air or not is irrelevant to whether it is organic. Neural and muscle tissue require oxygen (or similarly reactive elements) to function, but that is real-world science, and as you say, "real world physics do not apply to Bionicle.

Um, no you're wrong, they use oxygen which they get from water just like land organisms do. They don't use water in their respiratory process like water breathing characters in Bionicle do, thats my point.

In bionicle you have 2 (known) forms of respiration: air and water. Oxygen is irrelevant.

And I don't "say that" it's common known knowledge. Greg has literally stated that over and over again. Also in Bionicle, organic tissue needs air (or water if thats what they breathe) to function. That's fact, so next time you want to make an argument about character respiration, please get your stuff together. BS01 is a great resource to start.

[Regitnui]

 

 

There are characters who breathe water, which, last time I checked isn't something most (if any) Earth organism does.

Fish? Many aquatic arthropods? Young amphibians? Phyto- and zooplankton? Near on 70% of all creatures that have and do exist? What do you think gills are for? Decoration? Every animal I mentioned above breathes water, so you've just shot yourself in the foot with that point.

 

Also, whether something needs air or not is irrelevant to whether it is organic. Neural and muscle tissue require oxygen (or similarly reactive elements) to function, but that is real-world science, and as you say, "real world physics do not apply to Bionicle.

Um, no you're wrong, they use oxygen which they get from water just like land organisms do. They don't use water in their respiratory process like water breathing characters in Bionicle do, thats my point.

In bionicle you have 2 (known) forms of respiration: air and water. Oxygen is irrelevant.

And I don't "say that" it's common known knowledge. Greg has literally stated that over and over again. Also in Bionicle, organic tissue needs air (or water if thats what they breathe) to function. That's fact, so next time you want to make an argument about character respiration, please get your stuff together. BS01 is a great resource to start.

Now you're starting to make no sense. The Toa Mahri, Matoran and Lesovikk all have gills, with which to breathe water. Gills extract oxygen from water like lungs extract oxygen from air. Both processes are respiratory. Respiratory processes are breathing, therefore fish breathe water. Terrestrial ('land') organisms can't breathe water. Aquatic (water) organisms cant breathe air. Try your high school biology textbook and a dictionary before looking up information designed to explain things to children.

 

This is getting off-topic. If you really feel the need to continue to debate what breathing is, PM me.

[Archon~]

You're just not getting how breathing applies to Bionicle, but yeah I can't help your ignorance. This is grtting off topic and I don't feel like explaining all of it, make a topic about it if you want, but yeah I'm done trying to enlighten you.

[bonesiii]

Please remain civil, folks...

[Boidoh]

another question: could protodermis be controlled by a toa of Water, or a Toa of Iron?

 

Erm. This is the last question asked that isn't about underwater breathing. So I'll use this for an opportunity to remain on topic.

 

Protodermis

-----------------

 

Liquid Protodermis - Toa of Water

Metallic Protodermis - Toa of Iron

Molten Protodermis - None... yet. Greg just needs a few convincing here and there for him to agree that a Toa of Earth can control magma.

Frozen Protodermis - Toa of Ice

Organic Protodermis - Toa of the Green can control the organic protodermis of plants. Because the plants of the MU are made of that, I think.

Energized Protodermis  - None

Edited October 5, 2014 by Boidoh

[Click]

Theoretically, Molten Protodermis can be controlled by a Toa of Fire working with a Toa of Earth/Stone, like Hakaan and Avak did in one of the books. It's just not commonly used in canon.

[Boidoh]

I thought it could just be CREATED using the two, like in MoL. The earth is created by the Toa of Earth, while it is heated until molten by the Toa of Fire.

 

Just wait, I'll convince Greg soon enough.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Boidoh

[Irrie]

I thought it could just be CREATED using the two, like in MoL. The earth is created by the Toa of Earth, while it is heated until molten by the Toa of Fire.

 

Just wait, I'll convince Greg soon enough.

Ah yes. Boidoh's legendary LMB questions. 

 

I always thought that Toa could manipulate but not create objects of their element. 

[Click]

I thought it could just be CREATED using the two, like in MoL. The earth is created by the Toa of Earth, while it is heated until molten by the Toa of Fire.

 

Just wait, I'll convince Greg soon enough.

 

From BS01:

 

In tandem with the Elemental Power of Earth, [Fire] can be used to make lava.

So, I guess you're right. Maybe control is a Skakdi-exclusive ability, since they have to use combinations.