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Everything is Mata-Nui's fault

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Looking back on the story, I noticed something. Mata-Nui is not a very good charactor.

When looking at the vast history of the matoran universe, what do you notice? Mata-Nui could care less about the people inside him. He completely ignored what was going on within him, he required a toa to die for him because he didn't bother interviening in the (rather large scale mind you) civil war, he assigned six barraki to basicly run things for him (and look how well that turned out), and worst of all, he got all the credit for everything. This complete lack of respect for others was what drove the Makuta to rebel. In Time Trap, Vakama is awed by Mata-Nui's interferance to create the toa, but really, Mata-Nui was just trying to save his own skin.

 

Then, what happens when he is ejected from the robot? Rather than an interesting story of a fallen god trying to redeem himself for his mistakes, he lands on a planet, paints himself a perfect protagenist with the deus ex machina face, and proceeds to ruin everyone's lives.

Who does he soley blame for his downfall dispite it being his own fault? Teridax.

Who became an angry idiot so that Mata-Nui could fight him? Strakk.

Who became an angry idiot with back pains so Mata-Nui could beat him? Tuma.

Who changed from the strongest, most feared warriors on bara-magna to mindless pathetic soldiers so that Mata-Nui could be victorious? Skrall and bone hunters.

What interesting race was reduced to total obscurity because someone hogged the brown set spot? Vorox.

Who got the agori to give up their giant sheltering fragments so that he could be big again? Mata-Nui.

Who became an angry idiot in a giant robot so Mata-Nui could beat him? Teridax.

 

I think I'm overblowing this a little, the the point stands. As a god, Mata-Nui did a poor job. As a Glatorian, he was a terribly generic (and don't get me started on the Kanohi OPnika) good guy, when they could have done so much more interesting things with it.

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Who united all the Agori and Glatorian under one banner, creating peace? Mata Nui.

 

Who used the giant robot to meld the Bota and Aqua Magna into Bara Magna to reform Spherus Magna? Mata Nui.

 

Who used the Mask of Life to terraform Spherus Magna into a bona-fide Garden of Eden? Mata Nui.

 

Who saved the world? Mata. Nui.

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I generally agree, but remember that Mata-Nui made mistakes, and that in the end he did his duty to repair them. He ignored his inner workings because to him they were just there to keep him working. Why would they ever go sapient and start having wars?

 

When he landed he only blamed himself for what happened and for letting Teridax gain control. His goal from that point on was not to ruin everyones lives, but stop Teridax and fix everything. 

 

Sure, Mata-Nui made mistakes, but we all do. And Mata-Nui is a good guy because he recognized those mistakes, and took up the responsibility of fixing them.

Edited by Banana Gunz
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I generally agree, but remember that Mata-Nui made mistakes, and that in the end he did his duty to repair them. He ignored his inner workings because to him they were just there to keep him working. Why would they ever go sapient and start having wars?

 

When he landed he only blamed himself for what happened and for letting Teridax gain control. is goal from that point on was not to ruin everyones lives, but stop Teridax and fix everything. 

 

Sure, Mata-Nui made mistakes, but we all do. And Mata-Nui is a good guy because he recognized those mistakes, and took up the responsibility of fixing them.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

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The entire BIONICLE story is about Mata Nui screwing everything up by not paying attention to what was going on inside his universe-body and then redeeming himself.

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When my blood cells grow brains and start attacking, I will blame myself for my not paying attention to their need for honor and respect. 

 

I think this is the first time in my life I've ever agreed with or laughed at something you posted. It's kind of an icky feeling, but here we are.

 

-Tyler

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whats up doc

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When my blood cells grow brains and start attacking, I will blame myself for my not paying attention to their need for honor and respect. 

 

Yup.

 

Mata Nui's job wasn't to make sure everything was fine and dandy inside. He was supposed to visit new worlds, which is exactly what he did.

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 You know, there's this auto-immune deficiency that causes your white blood cells to attack your other cells. Mata Nui's case is kind of like that. 

 

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Yes, but this is even creepier. It's one of your blood cells developing a brain, putting you into a coma, then banishing you to live as a blood cell until you can take over a dead body that's broken and cobble it back together for long enough to destroy your nemesis inside your own body before it kills everyone else. 

 

In the process, you are forced to live at blood cell size forever because there is no normal-size body for you to inhabit after your dead body falls apart.  

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Yes, but this is even creepier. It's one of your blood cells developing a brain, putting you into a coma, then banishing you to live as a blood cell until you can take over a dead body that's broken and cobble it back together for long enough to destroy your nemesis inside your own body before it kills everyone else. 

 

In the process, you are forced to live at blood cell size forever because there is no normal-size body for you to inhabit after your dead body falls apart.  

^^^Disturbing.^^^

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Looking back on the story, I noticed something. Mata-Nui is not a very good charactor.

When looking at the vast history of the matoran universe, what do you notice? Mata-Nui could care less about the people inside him. 

 

I tried to resist, but I just couldn't. The phrase "could care less" does not mean what you think it means, and it drives me absolutely berserk to see people misusing language in such a patently boneheaded way.

 

 caring.png

 

Now, with that out of the way... yeah, I'm going to have to agree with what Sumiki said. Mata Nui wasn't a very good ruler, no, and his characterization in 2009-2010 wasn't very compelling at all.

 

However, keep in mind that, during his epic space voyages, we were never given Mata Nui's side of the story; we only saw his lack of involvement from the universe inside him, as opposed to his great involvement with the universe outside. There was a lot for him to study and think about, and he was probably very dedicated to his duty (just not his people). That's not unreasonable, since his duty was, if you recall, kind of a big deal. :P

 

Mata Nui's shortcomings were pretty much the point of the whole story, but he did have redeeming factors. I think one great thing he did do was retreating into the Ignika at the end of the saga. After all, too much hero worship and blind loyalty was the problem that shattered Spherus Magna in the first place. His dormancy, while insensitive to the feelings of Kiina and his friends, was rather wise on the larger scale.

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Looking back on the story, I noticed something. Mata-Nui is not a very good charactor.

When looking at the vast history of the matoran universe, what do you notice? Mata-Nui could care less about the people inside him. 

 

*snip*

 

Mata Nui's shortcomings were pretty much the point of the whole story, but he did have redeeming factors. I think one great thing he did do was retreating into the Ignika at the end of the saga. After all, too much hero worship and blind loyalty was the problem that shattered Spherus Magna in the first place. His dormancy, while insensitive to the feelings of Kiina and his friends, was rather wise on the larger scale.

 

 

Did Mata-Nui go back into the mask by free will or was he "drawn back to it" naturally like the comic says? I can't tell for sure now. But I still agree with this; he could have very well chosen to create a new body but rather decided on what he felt was better for all, rather than himself.

 

Another question: is Mata-Nui's spirit still inside the mask or is it kinda floating around like antidermis all free-like? 'Tis confuzzling.

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To contest the title of this topic, not everything is Mata Nui's fault. Mata Nui was created in the first place because the Glatorian destroyed their planet. That was their fault.

 

That being said, he was pretty flighty for a guy relying on millions of people living inside him to survive.

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Did Mata-Nui go back into the mask by free will or was he "drawn back to it" naturally like the comic says? I can't tell for sure now. But I still agree with this; he could have very well chosen to create a new body but rather decided on what he felt was better for all, rather than himself.

JE says he was drawn back to it, so it's probably the latter.  

Another question: is Mata-Nui's spirit still inside the mask or is it kinda floating around like antidermis all free-like? 'Tis confuzzling.

It's in the mask as far as I know. If not, it would likely dissipate and cease to exist.

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Who became an angry idiot so that Mata-Nui could fight him? Strakk.

 

Who knocked down Ackar (who was so exhausted from beating him fairly that could not get back up) and walked towards him with an axe, probably about to strike the finishing blow, only for Mata Nui to rescue him? Strakk.


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Who became an angry idiot so that Mata-Nui could fight him? Strakk.

 

Who knocked down Ackar (who was so exhausted from beating him fairly that could not get back up) and walked towards him with an axe, probably about to strike the finishing blow, only for Mata Nui to rescue him? Strakk.

 

That's exactly what was meant by him turning into an angry idiot. Strakk is a cheater, but a smart one. He wouldn't just blatantly break the rules of the arena like that. Him doing so was a very ooc moment, and it only served so Mata Nui could save the day. TLR wasn't good at character consistency, technically because Greg made the characters different after TLR had already started being made. Them's the problems with movies.

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I saw that scene as Strakk's frustration in losing to Ackar, who is older and close to retirement, so this was him snapping.

 

Granted, scenes in the movie were considered with Mata Nui as the hero, but I consider Strakk's morality to be shady in the first place, and this event was the final straw


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And don't forget who was REALLY behind all this.

The one that kept Makuta alive.

The one that cheapened the Toa Victory.

The one who has an obsession over Vezon

 

Greg Farshtey

 

 

Yes, but this is even creepier. It's one of your blood cells developing a brain, putting you into a coma, then banishing you to live as a blood cell until you can take over a dead body that's broken and cobble it back together for long enough to destroy your nemesis inside your own body before it kills everyone else. 

 

In the process, you are forced to live at blood cell size forever because there is no normal-size body for you to inhabit after your dead body falls apart.  

 

^^^Disturbing.^^^

I would say "boo" but then I would spook half the board.

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Yes, a large part of the blame is due to Mata Nui not paying attention (as my retelling has been emphasizing). But I thought that in 2009 he did recognize this somewhere. Maybe I'm just confusing theoretical expanded character development for what was actually in canon, though. :shrugs:

 

Of course, Mata Nui's negligence leading to the evil Makuta's actions doesn't excuse Makuta, or make it false that it was also Makuta's fault.

 

And obviously he's still a good guy -- just flawed, as of course he should be, or else you've got a Gary Stu. (And it's realistic that an AI put into this sort of situation would develop that flaw, as my retelling also tracks over time.)

 

 

Edit: Okay, I wasn't gonna take the time to get into specifics, but just read through the replies instead of skimming this time, and I guess might as well comment on this one as it's got me thinking:

 

 

Posted Oct 02 2014 - 09:43 PM

Gathered Friends, on 02 Oct 2014 - 9:37 PM, said:snapback.png

 

Chuck the Toa of crazyness, on 02 Oct 2014 - 5:43 PM, said:snapback.png

Who became an angry idiot so that Mata-Nui could fight him? Strakk.

 

Who knocked down Ackar (who was so exhausted from beating him fairly that could not get back up) and walked towards him with an axe, probably about to strike the finishing blow, only for Mata Nui to rescue him? Strakk.

 

That's exactly what was meant by him turning into an angry idiot. Strakk is a cheater, but a smart one. He wouldn't just blatantly break the rules of the arena like that. Him doing so was a very ooc moment, and it only served so Mata Nui could save the day.

I'm still not sure about this incident. I can see where this comes from -- but on the other hand, everybody there, including Strakk, had recently been put under stresses that they hadn't for most of the 100,000 years since the Shattering -- the Skrall deciding, in response to Baterra advances, to start going for more and more resources, and then destroying Atero, etc. Surely that is going to make some people snap.

 

But is that enough to justify this particular snap?

 

I'm not sure... I do think you're right about why they went for this in the story, and that may make it authorial guiding, which I generally dislike. But I'm also not sure you're right that it was "very ooc". Strakk was never portrayed as a totally honorable guy. He was often the one who would act more selfishly than the others. I think it was clear he was on a path to a big snap. And since the endpoint of the job he had been doing, Atero (for the Tournaments) was destroyed, he might very well be willing to throw that away now.

 

Also, they did help add to its plausibility by having another major character of 2009 have done this earlier, so it wasn't completely out of the blue (Malum).

Edited by bonesiii
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I like how when you first enter the forums and the title of this topic next to story line and theories is shortened.

 

Everything is Mata-Nui. Mata-Nui is everything. OBEY.

 

Oh, and never trust the Legend Reborn for anything. It'll only disappoint you so much more. Let's just pretend it doesn't exist.

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Don't trust TLR, because *insert planet vs. moon argument*.


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Mata Nui was created in the first place because the Glatorian destroyed their planet. That was their fault.

 

This is inaccurate. The Glatorians did not destroy Spherus Magna, the planet destroyed itself due to its energized protodermis leaking from its core. If you need confirmation check this out.


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Mata Nui was created in the first place because the Glatorian destroyed their planet. That was their fault.

 

This is inaccurate. The Glatorians did not destroy Spherus Magna, the planet destroyed itself due to its energized protodermis leaking from its core. If you need confirmation check this out.

 

 It's true that the energized protodermis leakage destroyed the planet; however, the problem was exacerbated by the Glatorian/Agori draining it during the Core War. http://biosector01.com/wiki/index.php/The_Shattering

Edited by John Smith
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Mata Nui was created in the first place because the Glatorian destroyed their planet. That was their fault.

 

This is inaccurate. The Glatorians did not destroy Spherus Magna, the planet destroyed itself due to its energized protodermis leaking from its core. If you need confirmation check this out.

 

 

Odd that you link to the inferior Wikia wiki which has, like, one paragraph on the subject. Then again, you'd have to have, because if you read the BS01 article, you'd notice the passage

 

The Fire Tribe, in an effort to claim the power of the Energized Protodermis, managed to break into the Ice Tribe's well, and began siphoning off the substance from its spring. A chain reaction began in the core of the planet and eventually it caused the planet to shatter into three pieces.

 

 

which pretty much squarely places the blame for the shattering on the war between the Glatorian over the EP.

 

Yes, unchecked, over a long period of time, the planet would have shattered anyway, just as even without human interference, the Earth would eventually melt its ice caps. However, like humans and global temperature, the Glatorian and Agori exacerbated the issue with their greed and interference, and wound up causing a cataclysm far more quickly than it would have naturally occurred. (And, in Spherus Magna's case, the EP issue could have been resolved if the Glatorian and Agori HADN'T been constantly trying to drain it, thus triggering the Shattering.)

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I'm not sure... I do think you're right about why they went for this in the story, and that may make it authorial guiding, which I generally dislike. But I'm also not sure you're right that it was "very ooc". Strakk was never portrayed as a totally honorable guy. He was often the one who would act more selfishly than the others. I think it was clear he was on a path to a big snap. And since the endpoint of the job he had been doing, Atero (for the Tournaments) was destroyed, he might very well be willing to throw that away now.

 

Also, they did help add to its plausibility by having another major character of 2009 have done this earlier, so it wasn't completely out of the blue (Malum).

That's just the thing, though. He was not honorable, and he was very selfish, but this is precisely why he wouldn't kill a fellow Glatorian. He's looking out for himself and only himself, and that requires his being employed, since there literally are no other options for surviving. Even with tensions as high as they were, the story of Raid on Vulcanus, for one, shows that he can survive under pressure. What's more, the story certainly did not portray Strakk as snapping, from what I remember. He just "i never liked you" Ackar and did something stupid. And that's not Strakk.

 

And on the contrary, Malum is actually the biggest reason why Strakk doing this was unrealistic. When Malum was banished, it was because he tried to kill Strakk when he was down. And Strakk even called him out for being stupid in doing so, if I remember correctly (i probably don't remember correctly) He knew the consequences and had lived them first hand. His doing so was very much unrealistic. (though, to be fair, having Strakk be the victim in the Malum case seemed to be a pretty late decision. The first 2009 comic stands out awkwardly now because they're just talking about Malum's banishment without taking the time to note that most of them were actually there to begin with and Strakk was the one who almost got killed)

 

But of course, as always, we have to note that it's only unrealistic because Greg's writing of his character was not a good lead-in to the TLR story--which of course was also the case with Gresh and Tuma. Now, I don't really blame Greg for this one--the characters he had for all of these characters were far more interesting than what we saw in TLR. but Mata nui needed to be The Hero, so Strakk and Tuma stopped being their old selves, and he needed an enthusiastic young sidekick, so Gresh too underwent some major changes. Again, them's the movies. 

Edited by farmstink buttlass
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The entire BIONICLE story is about Mata Nui screwing everything up by not paying attention to what was going on inside his universe-body and then redeeming himself.

Except the redemption part is tagged on as a footnote in the rushed finale, so he basically goes down in history as a terrible god for the Matoran, who couldn't be bothered to deal with what amounts to health checkups.

 

So yeah, everything kind of is his fault, save the Shattering. I imagine him being a deity to the Matoran somewhat on par with the Greek and Roman gods, who were mostly preoccupied with petty squabbles.

 

~B~

Edited by Ballom
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So I'm to blame when my previously non sentient gut flora decide I'm a god and begin blaming me for not paying any attention? The entire history of the matoran race is due to a glitch in the GB's programming.

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I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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So I'm to blame when my previously non sentient gut flora decide I'm a god and begin blaming me for not paying any attention? The entire history of the matoran race is due to a glitch in the GB's programming.

What's more, it wasn't even an accidental glitch: Velika made the MUans develop sapience. He's been plotting against his fellow Great Beings since even before the Shattering. Add to that that he had a hand in creating the Element Lords, who are pretty much to blame for the Core War, I'm pretty sure you can shift at least part of the blame for most bad things that happened on Velika, with the notable exception of everything that happened in 2009 on Bara Magna.

 

Edit: This next part isn't really directed at Regitnui anymore, but rather at the OP and the discussion in general. That wasn't clear before.

 

And I think TLR does pay sufficient attention to Mata Nui's guilt, the movie basically starts off with him saying he neglected his people and allowed an evil being to take control. As has been pointed out, he subsequently defeated the Makuta, restored Spherus Magna and let his life energies sweep across the planet. This is specifically portrayed as him atoning for his past mistakes:

 

My friends, the debt owed you has been repaid. Your world has been restored.

The stuff about him affecting the way Strakk, Tuma and the Skrall were portrayed in TLR can obviously not be blamed on the character of Mata Nui himself. It actually sounds like you're saying TLR would have been better without Mata Nui, but that would problematic given the big picture of the BIONICLE storyline.

Edited by Thormen
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You can make the point Mata Nui is terrible because he never made paid attention. But in all honesty, how often do you pay attention to the internal workings of your body unless something happens?

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Sorry, but you're wrong TC. Everything is the Great Beings fault. Who appointed Element Lords to rule Spherus Magna because they prefered to work on their projects (which in turn would eventually result in war amongst the tribes)? The Great Beings. Who created a giant robot with spaient creatures (with faulty AI, mind you) inside designed to study the full of the Universe to restore Spherus Magna? The Great Beings. Even the Red Star malfunctioned. And they had to tamper with the power of Life and Time, of course.

 

Point your finger at the mad scientists, everyone. The poor great spirit guy was just doing his job :'(

 

 

You can make the point Mata Nui is terrible because he never made paid attention. But in all honesty, how often do you pay attention to the internal workings of your body unless something happens?

 

 

This man is onto something. He had no medic attention at all, right? RIGHT?

Edited by Night Terror
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Sigh.

And now he sits dormant in the mask of life, because LEGO didn't know what to do with him.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But I do.

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Which is? Don't leave us hanging like that. I personally like the idea of the MoL now being in the Kini Magna (Great Temple) attended by Av-Matoran and the Av-Toa Takanuva. But this is off-topic.


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I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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Sigh.

And now he sits dormant in the mask of life, because LEGO didn't know what to do with him.

 

But I do.

Which is? Don't leave us hanging like that. I personally like the idea of the MoL now being in the Kini Magna (Great Temple) attended by Av-Matoran and the Av-Toa Takanuva. But this is off-topic.

 

I think he means death, torture, etc...

Edited by fishers64

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So I'm to blame when my previously non sentient gut flora decide I'm a god and begin blaming me for not paying any attention? The entire history of the matoran race is due to a glitch in the GB's programming.

When your gut bacteria are known to you to do weird things you should pay attention to what they're doing so that nothing horrible happens to you. It's the same way a human is at fault if they are negligent in checking for infections and subsequently suffer from a major one.

 

~B~

Edited by Ballom
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Yes, but this is even creepier. It's one of your blood cells developing a brain, putting you into a coma, then banishing you to live as a blood cell until you can take over a dead body that's broken and cobble it back together for long enough to destroy your nemesis inside your own body before it kills everyone else. 

 

In the process, you are forced to live at blood cell size forever because there is no normal-size body for you to inhabit after your dead body falls apart.  

That is the way of the Bionicle...

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Bionicle is a constant story of characters screwing up and leaving the screwed thing to another one to resolve.

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I honestly wouldn't blame the Great Beings too much. Everyone has things they're good at and not good at. Some people prefer science, others prefer politics. The GB's simply preferred science. They earnestly tried to fix their mistakes. They tried to make things better. In fact, even though most of their plans failed and were only saved by much chance, without the plans in the first place there would've been no hope at all. They could've tried to stop the Shattering in so many ways, but the MU bot was the the one they went with, and the one that made the most sense. And under the pressure and time limits that they were under, I'm not surprised at how many glitches and changes there were. 

 

And I agree it was awful to see other characters butchered to make Mata-Nui seem more heroic. I don't completely blame Greg for it, but I wish that it could've been done more carefully so that they didn't have to bum down other characters to make Mata-Nui more interesting.

 

I'm personally fine with where Mata-Nui is right now. He made the right decision to let the Toa/Matoran and Glatorian/Agori lead their own lives without him. 

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Speaking of things that Mata Nui  is kinda at fault for, it always rubbed me the wrong way that the Ignika--which had developed agency of its own in 2008--had its consciousness suppressed by Mata Nui's. The Ignika was practically a living being itself by that point, so just having Mata Nui take over struck me as pretty terrible. Especially at the end of the story when he just decided to retreat into the Ignika indefinitely. Is there any reason at all he couldn't have just returned power over to the Ignika and let it do its own thing while he slept or whatever?

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