Extent of Nui Stone's power siphoning

[bonesiii]

But I do not think that forcefully draining all of a Toa's energy will have any impact on whatever function makes the transformation work.

I'm not sure if you meant this (or the rest of your post) how it looks to me, but did you factor this?

 

4) Could Tuyet use the Nui Stone to turn a Toa into a Turaga(by taking all their Toa Power)?

 

4) No. You can't turn into a Turaga unless you complete your destiny and CHOOSE to give up your Toa power.

 

It seems to me the code needs to have a line about "If Toa sacrificed the last bit of their (sacrifice-able) energy --> Transform to Turaga" (I know I'm not using the same syntax as you did but translate ). And something like "If Toa's energy is down to the last bit --> Forcible draining is cut off" (if fishers is right). Or something. I'm still confused about the details, but that's why Thorm's asking Greg and stuff, so yeah.

Edited October 8, 2014 by bonesiii

[Katuko]

It would act on a mental trigger. Whether or not the energy is gone wouldn't matter much, only whether or not the Toa's destiny was complete. If yes, vent all remaining Toa energy and transform. If there is no energy, it doesn't factor in.

[fishers64]

It would act on a mental trigger. Whether or not the energy is gone wouldn't matter much, only whether or not the Toa's destiny was complete. If yes, vent all remaining Toa energy and transform. If there is no energy, it doesn't factor in.

I'd think there would have to be somewhere for the Toa energy to vent to, though. I'm not sure that a random Toa could randomly decide that being a Turaga was more fun and transform on a whim - the universe mechanics would probably contain it somewhere, even if it was just a random patch of ground.

[Katuko]

BIONICLE hasn't exactly been all that big on the conservation of energy when it comes to transformations.

 

But I guess a more prudent question would be what happened to Lhikan, who made Toa Stones from all his energy and then turned into a Turaga pretty much immediately once they were used. Did the existence of his stones prevent his trigger from activating because it was still "his" energy until the Toa Metru received it? Or was his destiny perhaps to bring more Toa into being, so that he was just sitting there going "ah, finally" when he felt the stones activate?

Edited October 8, 2014 by Katuko

[bonesiii]

It would act on a mental trigger. Whether or not the energy is gone wouldn't matter much, only whether or not the Toa's destiny was complete. If yes, vent all remaining Toa energy and transform. If there is no energy, it doesn't factor in.

Keep in mind this is basically the same idea that I had that people were talking about earlier (that I thought for a while fishers meant) -- and I hate to beat a dead horse, but how is that consistent with that Greg quote? Specifically this part: "CHOOSE to give up your Toa power".

 

what happened to Lhikan, who made Toa Stones from all his energy and then turned into a Turaga pretty much immediately once they were used. Did the existence of his stones prevent his trigger from activating because it was still "his" energy until the Toa Metru received it?

The old preferred theory was that the Suva simply teleported the remaining energy (plus the multiplication effect) from him at that point. However, I think, now that you mention it, that I did see an LMB quote somewhere, where Greg made it sound more like what you say in the second sentence here.

[Katuko]

how is that consistent with that Greg quote? Specifically this part: "CHOOSE to give up your Toa power"

You choose to give up your power and become a Turaga, but if there is no Toa energy left you just become a Turaga without having to spend the remaining energy right there and then. There isn't really anything else to it. Edited October 9, 2014 by Katuko

[bonesiii]

Okay, but he said that to become a Turaga you have to choose to give up Toa Power (his term at the time for Toa Energy). If it's all forcibly drained, I don't see how that can be described as choosing to give it up.

 

Well, I do see (I was talking about it earlier too... basically just assume Greg would retcon that part... but we don't know that) but I think the argument against it is much stronger. Do you agree?

Edited October 9, 2014 by bonesiii

[Katuko]

In short: No.

 

You make a choice to turn into a Turaga, with the prerequisite being that you have fulfilled your destiny. You must also give up your power, but as far as making the system work it should be as simple as possible. The destiny check is the only one that really matters. The rest is just a method of disposing of any leftover Toa energy, which may or may not require a valid target to drain it to, but should not in and of itself have any effect on the ability to initiate the transformation.

[bonesiii]

So, are you interpreting "must choose to give up Toa power" as "give up being a Toa, with powers of a Toa" instead of "must choose to give up some Toa Energy"?

 

If so, it's possible I suppoooooose..... :shrugs:

[Katuko]

Why would it work any other way? You can give up Toa energy on its own, and that process might include a subroutine for triggering a transformation once the supply is depleted, but the reverse - choosing to turn into a Turaga - should just as easily be able to give up the rest of the energy as part of the process. From an engineering standpoint, the system would contain a routine for both of those actions, but not necessarily require them both to be activated in any specific order.

[bonesiii]

Why would it work any other way?

Because being in Toa form without any Toa power seems like bad design; I think the other theory that the GBs put in a limit on how much could be stolen makes more sense. This is assuming that's possible.

[Katuko]

But aren't we talking about what happens when it is stolen involuntarily? Draining it outside of the normal procedure doesn't induce a transformation, so in my mind the only real question is: do you need Toa power to fuel the transformation? I would say no, as it is a one-time deal that reduces mass, and therefore should not need much more than a custom version of a standard transformative power.

[fishers64]

But aren't we talking about what happens when it is stolen involuntarily? Draining it outside of the normal procedure doesn't induce a transformation, so in my mind the only real question is: do you need Toa power to fuel the transformation? I would say no, as it is a one-time deal that reduces mass, and therefore should not need much more than a custom version of a standard transformative power.

It also reduces mental capacity and elemental power. 

 

Now, to be fair - there is still a way for this to be correct. Previous theories have implied that there has to be Toa Energy remaining in the reservoir for the transformation to take place. But wouldn't the transformation itself convert mass into energy?

 

Even if my Toa Energy reservoir was completely dry, I still have the mass and the functionality of a Toa. If I decide to become a Turaga, I give up the difference in mass and mental energy and any elemental energy that I have...and it would all become energy, right? I don't see a bunch of leftover Turaga mass floating around, so it becomes energy, which can be used for stuff. 

 

And this could not be taken from Toa by the Nui Stone. It takes Toa Energy, but it doesn't take mass, mental capacity, etc, from Toa. Therefore becoming a Turaga would mean giving up that mass, EE, and mental capacity in order to turn it into energy. No energy would have to be added because it would already be a part of the Toa, distinct from the TE reservoir. 

 

Is that a little bit what you're saying, Katuko? 

[bonesiii]

But aren't we talking about what happens when it is stolen involuntarily?

The point is that we don't yet know if all of it can be stolen involuntarily. That's what we've been discussing, right?

 

And you seem to have missed my point from the previous post. It was that it actually makes sense that the GBs would ensure that Toa who haven't completed their destiny are guaranteed to hold onto at least a little Toa Power, so they can use elemental powers (more than a Turaga) to help complete it. I don't think the only factor is if you need TE for the transformation.

 

Of course, that begs the question (where I thought your reply would go ) of why they wouldn't block all stealing, but that's easily answered by the safeguards against safeguards tendency they had; a rogue Toa could be weakened this way, but a rogue stealer could have limits too; checks and balances.

Edited October 10, 2014 by bonesiii

[Thormen]

OK, so Greg says he's been under the weather and that's the reason he hasn't answered a lot of questions yet. I'll see if he answers the question in the coming days but if it gets buried I'll repost it.

 

I was also approaching it from a programmer's angle like Katuko, though I'd like to modify the script a bit to factor in what Fishers said about the Toa Energy needing to disappear somewhere:

Function "Turn Into Turaga"  Loop Start    If destiny is completed    Then:      If Toa Energy > 0      Then:        "yield", i.e. pause this code for a little while then return later.      Else        Change stature, remove Great Mask usage etc., in short the actual transformation into a Turaga.        Exit Loop    Else      "yield", i.e. pause this code for a little while then return later.  Loop End (Return to Loop Start)End of Function

So this script describes what happens from the moment you decide you want to become a Turaga. The entire function is only executed when you make this decision, this script will not run before that time. However, once you make that decision you end up in a loop that first checks if you have completed your destiny. If you haven't, you go straight to the second "Else" and you "yield", which means you pause this script for a little while so that you can do other stuff and then come back to the script a little later. Then you end up at "Loop End" and you go back to "Loop Start", i.e. rinse and repeat. If your destiny is completed the code checks if you still have Toa Energy left. If you do, you again yield, hit "Loop End" and rinse and repeat. Essentially you keep sporadically running this loop until both conditions are true: you have completed your destiny and you don't have any Toa Energy left. In that case you hit the "Change stature" etc. and actually turn into a Turaga. Essentially this keeps the three requirements completely separate: you have to have completed your destiny, you have to have no Toa Energy left and you have to choose to give up being a Toa. The three requirements are each independent, it is perfectly possible to fulfill two but not fulfill one.

 

HOWEVER: I would like to add a line of code elsewhere to the effect that a Toa who gives up a part of his Toa Energy voluntarily automatically checks if it is the last part, and if so automatically triggers the above function. So the function for voluntarily spending Toa Energy could look like this:

Function "Spend Toa Energy"  Decrease Toa Energy by specified amount  If Toa Energy == 0  Then    Turn Into TuragaEnd of Function

This function is also called voluntarily, the first line says to decrease the Toa Energy, and subsequently the code checks if the amount of Toa Energy has hit zero and if so, calls the first function to turn into a Turaga.

 

To be fair, this is not factoring in where the energy comes from that is used to fuel the actual transformation: I have never assumed Toa Energy to actually fuel the transformation into a Turaga, I simply assumed that that energy came from elsewhere (life energy absorbed from food etc.). There have been so many transformations in the storyline without an actual explanation of where the energy for these transformations came from that I don't find it difficult to assume the energy just comes from "somewhere". I also find it hard to believe that the miniscule amount of energy that should be left would be enough to fuel the entire transformation.

 

The reason I am a little hesitant to accept Fishers' theory is because Greg said:

And while it's not impossible for what you are suggesting to happen, you would basically have to lock a Toa up with a Nui stone for a long time for all his Toa power to be drained ...

 

This quote does not 100% prove that all of a Toa's Toa Energy can be drained due to the vague wording of 'what you are suggesting to happen', but it comes really close and Greg's wording "for all his Toa power to be drained" suggests to me that, in his mind, it is really possible to drain Toa Energy to 0. I also think that, if any remaining Toa Energy would have to be used to fuel the transformation into a Turaga, this quote would have given Greg the opportunity to say that since the asker asked if it is possible to drain so much energy that a Toa will turn into a Turaga: Greg could have answered there that draining a Toa of his energy will never turn him into a Turaga since he needs to use that energy himself in the transformation, but instead he simply made the point that it was not voluntary.

 

OK, so as it turns out Greg leans towards the option that none of us was expecting:

If a Toa who already completed his/her destiny were to be locked up for a long period of time in the vicinity of an activated Nui Stone, long enough for the Nui Stone to completely drain the Toa of Toa Energy, what would happen? We saw these possibilities:

 

1) The Toa would be left with zero Toa Energy but remain a Toa. Since he/she never gave up any of his/her Toa Energy willingly, and will never be able to do so again because he/she is "empty", he/she will never be able to turn into a Turaga.

2) The Toa would be left with a miniscule amount of Toa Energy, some tiny last bit that even the Nui Stone couldn't drain. The Toa could later give this bit of Toa Energy up to become a Turaga.

3) The Toa would be left with zero Toa Energy and remain a Toa, but the Toa could still mentally develop further and come to a point in his/her life where he/she would say "If I would have had the choice, I would have given up my Toa Energy now. It was drained before I was ready to become a Turaga, but now I am ready to become a Turaga." and this change of the Toa's mental state and attitude towards life could trigger his/her transformation into a Turaga.

4) The Toa would be left with zero Toa Energy and turn into a Turaga. This however contradicts what you said earlier about Toa having to CHOOSE to give up their Toa Energy.

 

Which, if any, of these options is the correct one?

I personally would lean toward #1, however -- you could also have a case where the Toa is locked up and CHOOSES to remain so for some reason (maybe to protect others), and so could become a Turaga because he chose to remain in a situation where his energies were drained.

Apparently it really is possible to prevent a Toa from ever turning into a Turaga by draining all his/her Toa Energy. IMO the last part basically boils down to the idea that a Toa could turn into a Turaga by use of the Nui Stone, if he/she voluntarily let his/her Toa Energy be drained.

 

 

 

 

Edit: Double post merged.

-Wind-

Edited November 6, 2014 by -Windrider-