Explanation of Respiration

[Zox Tomana]

So, this isn't really a theory or a question, but rather a response to a short debate I saw in the topic about the powers of Iron Toa. Specifically, the two members differed over what was going on when it comes to respiration in BIONICLE species.

 

I think part of the confusion results from confusion over the very word "respiration," in that it has two meanings which need to be kept in mind.

 

On a macro-level, respiration is the act of breathing. As an EMT, one of the important vital signs I can collect is respirations per minute along with the quality of those respirations. At this level, terrestrial and aquatic species breathe (respirate) different substances, air and water, in order to collect a common substance, oxygen, for respiration on a micro-level, which is the use of oxygen in cellular processes which go towards storing energy for cellular work.

 

In BIONICLE, we have the same division between aquatic and non-aquatic species, and some characters which can go both way. In either case they are actually respirating different substances just like in the real world, but as far as we understand they are doing so in order to get oxygen. Bonesiii has his own theories there, but I can list off that we know that air isn't made of Proto, we can nearly assume it has a similar composition to our own, and if so we could ask what else they would be using gills to extract from the water as they respirate in order to possibly use for respiration. IN short, Fish and such do breathe water, but only so that they can collect oxygen for cellular respiration, which they get water for in other ways (water being another thing we don't know the full involvement of in their biomechanics).

 

 

So yeah, from what I saw, both members were talking about different parts of the story, and just didn't put the two halves together. Did I miss anything?

[bonesiii]

To be honest, I didn't understand that debate when I read it. The bottom line is, some creatures extract "oxygen or its equivalent" from water, others get the oxygen/equiv from air, and this works in the same way and with the same rules (fish out of water equals bad, etc.) as real life. So, to my mind, really nothing to debate there, other than what the "oxygen" is (I think it's oxygen ), and maybe deeper but ultimately irrelevant questions of how protodermis works.

[Mailli]

I'm not sure if this is just because of pit mutagen, but the Barraki reacted to air as if it was toxic; just touching would hurt (hence why the Mahri Nui matoran used those air-zamor launchers). Because of this, I assumed that they breathed water and didn't extract air from it as gills do because it would hurt them. Because this is impossible for respiration as we understand it, it's possible that it's not oxygen in the air they need, but something else.

[bonesiii]

Because of this, I assumed that they breathed water and didn't extract air from it as gills do because it would hurt them.

Maybe we're just not defining terms enough. Because in normal English, they do breathe water, and they don't extract air (air is by definition a gas), but a dissolved substance (oxygen or its equivalent) in the water.

 

Anyways, it seems like you're basing it on this:

 

the Barraki reacted to air as if it was toxic; just touching would hurt (hence why the Mahri Nui matoran used those air-zamor launchers)

I'd like to see a citation of when touching it with for example a hand would hurt. I don't recall this off the top of my head, though it's my memory so that's not much help lol. The solidified air bubbles could hurt on impact because they're solid, and the purpose of them to my current understanding is so the air gets in the way of breathing water, same as a fish out of water in the real world, even if for a short time (as that could also hurt). But just touching an air bubble like that surrounding Mahri Nui or in airweed with their hands alone, I would not think would hurt (unless breathing water is done not just by gills but all over their body, akin to some odder types of respiration in bugs).

[Archon~]

As far as I remember, Greg has stated that they breathe water and use that for respiration. There are no gasses involved in Bionicle when it comes to respiration and that is my whole point.

When it comes to breathing, Bionicle is (thank god) bery simple: there is air, and there is water, there is NO evidence that contraditcs this or hints that waterbreathers extract air around them.

Some characters breathe air,

Some breath waters,

Others breather both.

 

In real life it is obviously different and I understand how respiration works.

[Regitnui]

Mine point was that respiration works exactly the same way in Bionicle as it does in real life. I didn't get why there had to be a difference at all, which is why I was debating with you.

[bonesiii]

Again, Archon, it's accurate to say that they don't extract air, because air is a gas, but what they do extract is dissolved oxygen/equiv. You're saying the same basic thing; we don't say they "extract air" either. Air is a mixture of gasses including oxygen/equiv.

 

Make sense?

 

Unless you want to argue that the protowater/H2O molecule itself is what they are "breathing", but that's not what "breathing water" in English means.

[Archon~]

Again, Archon, it's accurate to say that they don't extract air, because air is a gas, but what they do extract is dissolved oxygen/equiv. You're saying the same basic thing; we don't say they "extract air" either. Air is a mixture of gasses including oxygen/equiv.

 

Make sense?

 

Unless you want to argue that the protowater/H2O molecule itself is what they are "breathing", but that's not what "breathing water" in English means.

I'm arguing the latter, because it has never been stated that air has numerous gasses within it, and that's why I believe being can breathe (and utilize) water and or/air. Not extract oxygen/equiv. from air/water.

 

But I guess this can be answered only by Greg if we ask him, since my memory tells me there is no confirmation or denying either.

[bonesiii]

But why overcomplicate things needlessly? If the story was intended to be taken as "they use water itself as if it was oxygen", then why the constant simple uses of the normal phrase, "breathing water"? Why was that never explained if that's the case? It rings too much of reading an idea in that was never intended just because the normal, plain meaning wasn't ever explicitly stated in the clearest terms possible. It's far more likely that's because they never imagined anybody needed such a normal thing explained, since everybody's familiar with fish breathing water.

 

Also, always be careful with basing arguments on universal negatives; you haven't necessarily seen every factoid and quote out there. I seem to recall a quote that did say it's probably some kind of mixture of gasses. Or something.

Edited October 8, 2014 by bonesiii

[Archon~]

I see, well I guess I don't have much of an argument for now, but I'll keep researching. I might try to construct a nicely worded question for Gregory to clarify the matter, and I'll post it on here to make sure you guys agree with how it's worded. Side note, I think that's actually a great system of asking Greg good questions that might not cause confusion.

Another side note, I'm glad to see so much argument and heated debat on S&T. It lets me know that the forum is alive once again, and that people still care, and that lets me know that there's still fire in people's hearts. :')

[Regitnui]

Forgive me for this, but it's not much of a debate if it's one person resoundingly refusing to hear what he's been told. Bionicle, especially spherus magna and it's parts, is Like Reality Unless Noted. The matoran have lungs, which would do the same thing lungs in real life do. The Mahri and Pit-mutated creatures have gills which replace their lungs. Why would they use the words if the organs did something different?

[Mailli]

 

I'd like to see a citation of when touching it with for example a hand would hurt. I don't recall this off the top of my head, though it's my memory so that's not much help lol. The solidified air bubbles could hurt on impact because they're solid, and the purpose of them to my current understanding is so the air gets in the way of breathing water, same as a fish out of water in the real world, even if for a short time (as that could also hurt). But just touching an air bubble like that surrounding Mahri Nui or in airweed with their hands alone, I would not think would hurt (unless breathing water is done not just by gills but all over their body, akin to some odder types of respiration in bugs).

 

In City of the Lost, in the Bionicle legends book series, it says that "Carapar took care to stay far away from the [airweed]. Like other creatures of the pit, air was toxic to him."

 

I guess saying extracting air is incorrect, so maybe they need oxygen from the water, but some other element in the air is harmful to them (nitrogen gas?)

[Regitnui]

Air is toxic to water-breathers in the same way water is toxic to us. While they possess the ability to breathe, they cannot breathe air.

 

Let's look at the feasibility of using solidified air bubbles as a weapon. First off, they're solidified, so being hit with one is going to hurt. Two, if hit in the right place, it would knock your breath away, and the first thing the target would do is breathe in. When you're designed to breathe either air or water, breathing both at the same time is going to be rather difficult. The water-breather breathes in air bubbles from the solidified bubble breaking, chokes, and the hydruka/mahritoran makes their getaway.

[bonesiii]

 

I'd like to see a citation of when touching it with for example a hand would hurt. I don't recall this off the top of my head, though it's my memory so that's not much help lol. The solidified air bubbles could hurt on impact because they're solid, and the purpose of them to my current understanding is so the air gets in the way of breathing water, same as a fish out of water in the real world, even if for a short time (as that could also hurt). But just touching an air bubble like that surrounding Mahri Nui or in airweed with their hands alone, I would not think would hurt (unless breathing water is done not just by gills but all over their body, akin to some odder types of respiration in bugs).

 

In City of the Lost, in the Bionicle legends book series, it says that "Carapar took care to stay far away from the [airweed]. Like other creatures of the pit, air was toxic to him."

Well, that's not definitive. Walking through a bunch of sticky bubbles that might come off on you anywhere and float up to collect around your head when you knock them off simply by brushing past the long, tall grasslike plants could certainly prove deadly to a water-breathing creature in the normal sense. Was there something else, or was this the ref that started this idea?

 

I guess saying extracting air is incorrect, so maybe they need oxygen from the water, but some other element in the air is harmful to them (nitrogen gas?)

It's important to understand (and I tend to assume everybody does, but maybe not; maybe this is where people are getting confused, so let's go there) that both air breathers and water breathers are extracting oxygen from something, and this matters because you need different 'machinery' to extract oxygen from air versus water.

 

Air breathers extract oxygen from a mixture of gases, mostly nitrogen.

 

Water breathers extract oxygen from being dissolved in a liquid; water.

 

It isn't that nitrogen gas produces an allergic reaction to fish; it's not that kind of harm, though it can be described as poisonous in a sense; it's that their machinery is designed to get O from liquid water, not from gaseous nitrogen. Different chemical systems must be used to make that happen, and the same sort of thing can be true in Bionicle with a nitrogen equivalent (perhaps nitrogen itself) and protowater or real water.

 

Now it's possible for the nitrogen substance to also be poisonous in the sense of an allergic reaction by any touch, but that's never been stated for Bionicle so far as I know, and if it was the case, you'd think they'd go out of the way to let us know that, rather than go on letting us assume it's like a fish out of water; the fish's skin doesn't start reacting chemically with air, it's just that its gills can't get the oxygen out of the air.

 

Does this help?

Edited October 8, 2014 by bonesiii

[Mailli]

 

 

I'd like to see a citation of when touching it with for example a hand would hurt. I don't recall this off the top of my head, though it's my memory so that's not much help lol. The solidified air bubbles could hurt on impact because they're solid, and the purpose of them to my current understanding is so the air gets in the way of breathing water, same as a fish out of water in the real world, even if for a short time (as that could also hurt). But just touching an air bubble like that surrounding Mahri Nui or in airweed with their hands alone, I would not think would hurt (unless breathing water is done not just by gills but all over their body, akin to some odder types of respiration in bugs).

 

In City of the Lost, in the Bionicle legends book series, it says that "Carapar took care to stay far away from the [airweed]. Like other creatures of the pit, air was toxic to him."

Well, that's not definitive. Walking through a bunch of sticky bubbles that might come off on you anywhere and float up to collect around your head when you knock them off simply by brushing past the long, tall grasslike plants could certainly prove deadly to a water-breathing creature in the normal sense. Was there something else, or was this the ref that started this idea?

 

I guess saying extracting air is incorrect, so maybe they need oxygen from the water, but some other element in the air is harmful to them (nitrogen gas?)

It's important to understand (and I tend to assume everybody does, but maybe not; maybe this is where people are getting confused, so let's go there) that both air breathers and water breathers are extracting oxygen from something, and this matters because you need different 'machinery' to extract oxygen from air versus water.

 

Air breathers extract oxygen from a mixture of gases, mostly nitrogen.

 

Water breathers extract oxygen from being dissolved in a liquid; water.

 

It isn't that nitrogen gas produces an allergic reaction to fish; it's not that kind of harm, though it can be described as poisonous in a sense; it's that their machinery is designed to get O from liquid water, not from gaseous nitrogen. Different chemical systems must be used to make that happen, and the same sort of thing can be true in Bionicle with a nitrogen equivalent (perhaps nitrogen itself) and protowater or real water.

 

Now it's possible for the nitrogen substance to also be poisonous in the sense of an allergic reaction by any touch, but that's never been stated for Bionicle so far as I know, and if it was the case, you'd think they'd go out of the way to let us know that, rather than go on letting us assume it's like a fish out of water; the fish's skin doesn't start reacting chemically with air, it's just that its gills can't get the oxygen out of the air.

 

Does this help?

 

So you're saying that air is not toxic to touch for water-breathers in bionicle lore, but they choke, just like fish do in air and we do in water, if they try to breathe air in? So this means that it works exactly like in our world, and the risk from airweed and solid air projectiles is inhaling the air or the physical hit from the air?

I mean, why didn't Carapar just hold his breath?

[bonesiii]

So you're saying that air is not toxic to touch for water-breathers in bionicle lore, but they choke, just like fish do in air and we do in water, if they try to breathe air in?

As far as I currently know, yes.

 

This could be resolved simply by asking Greg "Would just touching air with a hand hurt a Barraki? Or is air just toxic in the sense that they can't breathe it, like fish?"

 

I mean, why didn't Carapar just hold his breath?

You can only do that for so long. And at the very least it distracts you from an otherwise much easier ability to focus on attacking, etc. See Regitnui's latest post.

Edited October 8, 2014 by bonesiii

[Regitnui]

Try running after someone while they're shooting you in the face with one of those really powerful pressurized water guns. That's what I picture being hit by the solidified air bubble launchers to be like.