What is Up with Protodermis?

[Banana Gunz]

I think we can all agree that protodermis is one of the strangest things about Bionicle.

 

I want to know how you feel about the way it works in the story.

 

I personally don't like the way it was handled. After a while it became excessively confusing. Why does everything in the MU have to be made of it? It's bloody fiction, and I still can't see why we can't accept some details as "just because that's how it works". When building a sci-fi story I find that it's important to focus on building a story that uses science fiction elements to help drive it and make it more interesting rather than trying to make up theories on how it could work in the universe. Science fiction kind of is about the impossible (or at least what seems impossible at the moment). To me protodermis lost it's coolness when it became super specific because it was just something we didn't need to know. Protodermis as an ore/surface of the Mata-nui robot? Cool! But beyond that it begins to trudge ground where rather than adding to the universe, it starts to take away from it.

[Archon~]

I don't think it's ever been officially discussed due to the fact that it's the secret sauce that makes it all work. A good magician never reveals his tricks, know what I mean?

I think that further dwelling into it could just raise more questions and poke more unnecessary plot holes.

But then again, I'm not very well versed on the subject.

 

However, I've read some of Bonesi's theories regarding Protodermis, and I have to say they mostly make sense.

[John Smith]

I don't have a problem with it myself. Protodermis is an artificial material with many sub-variants that the Great Beings used to create the MU. I don't really see how that's confusing.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

blaaaaaah, here it is, time for me to bust up on what i hated about protodermis:

 

because i am really really REALLY disappointing in the way it went down, from a neat fictional metal-like ore. to-

 

what, what even was it in the end? the ground was proto? the trees were proto? WE were proto?

 

nah, i'll take molten, liquid, energized, raw, and refined (and steel) as what i think the total extent of proto's capabilities should be.

 

(basically i want my dirt to be dirt and my trees to just be trees, thank you. :t )

[Jacks]

@John Smith --

 

It's confusing because of the occasional insistence in the story to say "liquid protodermis" instead of water, "solid protodermis" instead of stone, "molten protodermis" instead of lava (also technically liquid protodermis, as it is protodermis in a liquid form??), metallic protodermis instead of metal (that one is by far the worst), etc.

 

Why not just say "water," "stone," "lava," and "metal," while still bearing in mind that it is composed of protodermis on a molecular/chemical level? Would that have been so hard?

 

Granted, I think it was more confusing in 2004, when all of these terms started appearing -- I remember being confused when I read that the sea around Metru Nui was "liquid protodermis" because the only liquid protodermis we knew of then was Energized Protodermis, and the sea around Metru Nui is definitely not EP -- especially since we did not yet know that the universe was inside a giant robot.

Edited October 8, 2014 by Jacks

[fishers64]

Why not just say "water," "stone," "lava," and "metal," while still bearing in mind that it is composed of protodermis on a molecular/chemical level? Would that have been so hard?

Wouldn't that have been even more confusing? All the instances of "water" not being like water would prompt hundreds of questions. Molten proto has different physics than real lava even. 

 

It's better be up-front about what is protodermis and what isn't, instead of having to handwave every physics change with "it's made of protodermis!"

[bonesiii]

Why does everything in the MU have to be made of it?

It doesn't really HAVE to be, it GETS to be. Remember that if you don't like this about it, that probably coumes out of personal preferences, or maybe just not getting it enough to like it (only you can decide that). But personally the idea of something that is so flexible it can imitate any substance (more or less) is brilliant, and also gets major points for being bold.

 

I get tired of fiction that stops just short of a really audacious idea just because it might push boundaries. Since such an idea is possible, good fiction IMO shouldn't be afraid of the "real life is stranger than fiction" principle, which means that anything plausible should be fair game in fiction (though there are other rules too, this is just a short answer ).

 

Anyways, part of it also seems to be that the protodermis helps keep everything from wearing out so fast. It wouldn't really make sense to make any part out of something else since it does this... Except that actually that's already true; the air isn't protodermis. But otherwise yeah... (Other than the exsidian... the scroll of preparations, etc.)

 

Plus, what may be more what they had in mind, it makes it more believable that something that massive could be constructed in a relatively short time; if an advanced molecule partly (somehow or another) helped in putting itself together like how living cells can do that.

 

To put it another way, why does a tree have to be entirely organic?

 

(Well in fiction it need not lol. Biomechanical trees... but in real life, trees are entirely made out of cells which are very similar to protodermis in their ability to come in such a wide variety of different forms.)

 

Protodermis as an ore/surface of the Mata-nui robot? Cool!

Now this I can't relate to. Every story and its twin brother has some unidentified "plot magic" substance that gets mined. It's way cooler IMO to have an entire universe made out of a vast array of varieties of the stuff. Now that's much more original (closer to original... I'm sure it's been done somewhere, but yeah).

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

*snip*

 

okay, so. you just said everything i was trying to say in a more detailed manner...

 

...even though you were talking about it in a positive light. :0

[Regitnui]

I'm on Bonesiii's side here. Protodermis is what makes BIONICLE unique. It also carried the ethos of Lego into a completely different story. Protodermis is like Lego. With a little thought and imagination, it could fulfill any function. It could be liquid, solid, molten, frozen, inanimate or alive. The Great Beings took a substance that could be anything (EP), and made it everything. I like it.

[Mjolnitor]

Protodermis is what makes BIONICLE unique.

Magical robots on mysterious island - this made Bonkles unique, not protodermis.

[Regitnui]

 

 

Protodermis is what makes BIONICLE unique.

Magical robots on mysterious island - this made Bonkles unique, not protodermis.

Oh yes, completely. If you stopped paying attention during 2001. Protodermis itself is magical, the society presented in Metru Nui was really cool, and the universe expanded naturally and (almost) seamlessly. Yet, protodermis is what makes it all make sense. It is phlebotnium, but a good kind of phlebotnium where it supports the story rather than dominates it.

[Thormen]

For me the reason I like the idea that the entire MU is made out of Protodermis ("the stuff of life") is because it's a HUGE clue regarding the true nature of Mata Nui and the MU. Protodermis is like cells: your entire body is made of them, but the only stuff outside your body (or that of others) that is made of them is stuff that used to belong to another living body. If everything in the MU is made of "the stuff of life", what does that say about the MU?

 

[insert dr. Frankenstein screaming "It's alive!" here]

[Pohatu: Uniter of Stone]

blaaaaaah, here it is, time for me to bust up on what i hated about protodermis:

 

because i am really really REALLY disappointing in the way it went down, from a neat fictional metal-like ore. to-

 

what, what even was it in the end? the ground was proto? the trees were proto? WE were proto?

 

nah, i'll take molten, liquid, energized, raw, and refined (and steel) as what i think the total extent of proto's capabilities should be.

 

(basically i want my dirt to be dirt and my trees to just be trees, thank you. :t )

I have to agree with you. I always thought protodermis was a special element in the Bionicle universe, but there was still carbon, iron, hydrogen, and the rest. 

[Tuuli]

Protodermis is the stuff of life. All matter in the MU is created from some type of protodermis, and beings in the universe require protodermis to live and function.

[Xeo]

I always saw it as the Great Beings' version of water as it appears in different states and seems to be fairly important to the livelihood of their creations that we have seen. It is energized protodermis that spooks me.

[Regitnui]

The thing is, all forms of protodermis are essentially inert forms of Energized Protodermis. So everything in the MU was 'born' in a way on Spherus Magna during the Core War.

 

It's not surprising that there are other elements in the MU. Why should the great beings synthesize air when it's getting trapped in the MU while it's being built? The air of the MU is air taken from Spherus Magna, which wasn't built from protodermis. Neither were the Scroll of Preparations and the two Glatorian 'pilots' in the MU Control Centre. Liquid protodermis was used instead of water because Spherus Magna was in the middle of a war, and the MU was built in the middle of the desert by robots. It would be highly impractical to get the water to the MU even if there wasn't a war between the construction site and the sea. If I recall correctly, the MU was built vertically. The landmasses within would've been perpendicular to gravity, and lifting rocks from the ground to the top when you could just spread more protodermis around would likely have been easier too.

Edited October 8, 2014 by Regitnui

[bonesiii]

]I always thought protodermis was a special element in the Bionicle universe, but there was still carbon, iron, hydrogen, and the rest.

There is. But what makes it special is it can imitate so many other things (and have innate powers). But outside of the giant robot, and the natural protodermis in planet cores, the rest of the Bionicle universe is made of normal matter. The trees on Spherus Magna are real trees, etc. But the ones in the artificial world are made of protodermis.

 

Basically, protodermis is in the Bionicle world what plastic is with LEGO in the real world. (And likely it is in fact intended to be somewhat symbolic of that.)

 

 

If instead protodermis was just something you mine, it wouldn't be that special. It would be like countless other fictional substances in other stories, and not that memorable.

[Mailli]

 

blaaaaaah, here it is, time for me to bust up on what i hated about protodermis:

 

because i am really really REALLY disappointing in the way it went down, from a neat fictional metal-like ore. to-

 

what, what even was it in the end? the ground was proto? the trees were proto? WE were proto?

 

nah, i'll take molten, liquid, energized, raw, and refined (and steel) as what i think the total extent of proto's capabilities should be.

 

(basically i want my dirt to be dirt and my trees to just be trees, thank you. :t )

I have to agree with you. I always thought protodermis was a special element in the Bionicle universe, but there was still carbon, iron, hydrogen, and the rest. 

 

I'm pretty sure everything non protodermis came from aqua magna after the great cataclysm. There are few exceptions like the paper scroll with the instructions to wake up Mata Nui, the mask of creation made of gold, and Mata Nui robot's face camouflage thing that became Mata Nui island. But these are all either special items or stuff on the surface of the MU.

[fishers64]

We don't know that the MoC isn't made of proto-gold. (Which would make more sense, all things considered...simplified promo materials should not be taken as canon law. )

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

I dunno, sometimes i think it's better not to think "well of course everything's proto 'cause it's all a giant machine!" and to instead think "well of course it can't all be proto because that's ridiculous and confusing."

 

y'know?

[bonesiii]

I dunno, sometimes i think it's better not to think "well of course everything's proto 'cause it's all a giant machine!" and to instead think "well of course it can't all be proto because that's ridiculous and confusing."

 

y'know?

But as I often point out, just calling something ridiculous (able to be ridiculed) is a fallacious argument as it can work both ways. We could also call it ridiculous that every fantasy story and its brother has some special substance with magical powers that gets mined, and that's all there is to it, so if Bionicle did that we could laugh at its just obviously pulling from an over-used trope unthinkingly.

 

As for confusing (aside from the short answer that it really isn't that confusing at all; "protodermis can imitate just about any substance" -- that's simple), that's actually good because it establishes mystery and gives us something to figure out if we're inclined to want to understand, and it fulfills the goal that Bionicle requires work to understand. It challenges you to think, and that's good practice.

 

In other words, if that's all you want, you have ten thousand stories out there to please you. Why can't we have ONE story that goes the bold, original, different route?

 

 

Also: Is it too confusing for you that organic cells can be wood, leaves, bark, muscle brain skin hair claw feather etc. etc. etc.?

 

 

Likewise, it could be described as "ridiculous and confusing" that there were "robots" (things that looked like robots anyways) on a tropical island. It could be described as ridiculous and confusing that they had powers in masks on their faces instead of just in them or in a weapon they carry. Basically the problem (perhaps even the "crime against fiction" -- no offense ) is that this could be used to force every aspect of a story into the generic norm; whatever is least likely to be ridiculed because people are just used to it, and doesn't challenge the mind at all because everybody already understands it.

 

BLEAGH.

 

No thanks.

Edited October 8, 2014 by bonesiii

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

As for confusing, that's actually good because

 

ummmm... i think we have different definitions of confusing here. :0

 

 

anyway, it's not that my problem is proto's a diverse material, that's pretty neat.

my problem is that somewhere along the line, it became the only material. and that's not being bold and different, it's being repetitive and closed up.

 

I mean, in 2004 it was a stone, a liquid (like water) a metal, a molten metal, and also had a form with magic-like transformative/destructive properties.

 

my question is:

why do the trees and people and stuff need to be made of this? instead of carbon-based organic compounds? and, if they must be metallic, why the same metallic as the that's actually treated as precious metal?

Edited October 8, 2014 by Rahkshi Lalonde

[bonesiii]

You may have missed my edit, so lemme reiterate -- isn't it confusing that there were robotic lifeforms on a tropical island? Should Bionicle have been robbed of that because you don't immediately get why? No, that's what made it cool.

 

But again, it isn't very confusing; "protodermis can imitate many different substances" -- that's simple and easy to understand. And the same applies to organic cells. I'd like to see a response to all my points; it seems to me there's a basic contradiction in your approach because of those things.

 

That said, if at the end of the day you simply have a personal preference that makes you unable to like anything but the usual trope of "special stuff that gets mined", that's okay, but why do you seem to think that should be imposed on the rest of us who don't share that?

 

Again, it's not about "have to" but "want to." Somebody who doesn't like something may focus on "have to" because they see it as something to be tolerated, but that's only because of that preference (or perhaps lack of understanding that could be fixed if they learn more ). But when somebody likes something, and a story does it, they tend not to think "why does it have to do that" because they don't see it as a barrier to enjoyment but a source of it. Instead they tend to simply be pleased by it. And since tastes vary, it's inevitable that no matter what is done, somebody will dislike it, ergo your ability to dislike it doesn't prove it shouldn't be done.

 

So, it had to be done because some people wanted it. (But the in-story reasons do make sense, and were answered already in my first post, third paragraph, or some of them. Another good reason it's it's actually less confusing to explain what is and isn't protodermis with the simple answer: "everything in the giant robot." Your alternative, keep in mind, would be more confusing in that respect.)

 

anyway, it's not that my problem is proto's a diverse material, that's pretty neat.

Okay, cool. That's what it is.

 

my problem is that somewhere along the line, it became the only material.

No, only in certain areas. If you only look at a tree, you can say organic cells are the only material there. (Essentially; there are of course simple chemicals in and between them, but that can be the case with protodermis too; the air, and possibly the impurities, but the tree's cellular designs and DNA are what make each part so different rather than just generic mud and air as those other materials would be alone. Plus, if you consider the smaller scale of real-world biomatter, since each cell isn't just one thing like protodermis but is made up of huge amounts of molecules, protodermis's types of materials are TINY in number compared to the types of organic molecules!)

 

And since there's many different types of materials, it's really no different than saying that normal matter is the only material (category) we see in real life. Face it -- protodermis is far more rare in Bionicle than real matter is in real life. Here everything is literally one category of matter in that sense.

 

The bold idea is -- what if you tried to make a world entirely out of a single, highly diverse fictional material?

 

If you think about it, it's exciting and fascinating, and the Great Beings did just that! (Essentially.)

 

and that's not being bold and different

Like I said, I'm sure it's not 100% original, but it is certainly very rare for stories. The fact that you are here telling us you don't like it shows why it's bold; they did something plausible, that some would like, even knowing that there would be detractors who don't like unusual things. That's what bold means.

 

And it is different from normal stories.

 

Yes, it's true that within the category of protodermis, there's a lot of types and therefore if you go through the types one by one, "this is a type of protodermis" will repeatedly be a property. But everything in life has pros and cons; the alternative is that every time the "rare material that's mined called protodermis" comes up, the thought "this is annoyingly similar to every other fantasy story with a weird magic-stuff that's mined" will repeatedly come up, and Bionicle as a whole becomes less appealing. No matter what you do in a story, there's a way to be displeased by it, even if you don't notice because it matches your tastes!

Edited October 8, 2014 by bonesiii

[Toa Chuck]

If you figured out how to make massive quantities of magic plastic, you'd want to build an absurdly giant robot too.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

@bonesiii:

 

you uh, sure said a lot of words, that's for sure.

 

i kinda forgot what most of your post was, but i do recall you saing "special material that is mined" and comparing protodermis to the catagorisation of matter somehow?

 

i'd like to say here i never referred to it as just "special stuff that's mined" but instead as "an interesting fantasy material that aided in worldbuilding and immersion" or some variant thereof.

 

 

(i would also like to add that making proto the sole factoring material in all post-2004 story isn't really "exciting and different" so much as it could be called "out of control" or "overdoing it" :u)

Edited October 8, 2014 by Rahkshi Lalonde

[bonesiii]

But again, RL, you're relying on your own personal taste to say that. Nobody's disputing that different people have different tastes, but we're telling you that not everybody shares your taste on it. A story cannot please everybody's tastes, so you can't argue from that to "LEGO shouldn't have done it."

 

In other words, you've asked "why does it have to be this way?", but the real question is "Why can't it be this way?"

 

Showing that there's downsides to it and people disliking it is not an answer; you'd have to show why those things must overrule the upsides and the liking of it from others to impose that on everybody else.

 

(That works both ways of course; Bionicle didn't have to do it; they could make it more like generic fiction, but I think if there's any close-to-objective answer, it's clearly that it's better to be unique so people have a variety of options to choose from in their fiction. )

Edited October 8, 2014 by bonesiii

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

yes, it's probable i'm relying on my own tastes to fuel my own opinons, but lets not forget your opinion is relying entirely on your taste as well. u-u

 

i'm pretty sure we're probably at an impass, what with your belief proto-everything is a breakthrough in science fiction, and mine that it's garbled and confusing and honestly more boring. :0

[bonesiii]

No it isn't, because I'm keeping my tastes in context, and not using them to say Bionicle MUST have protodermis how they have it, and when I'm showing objective reasons it makes sense, I'm not basing that logic on the preference, and I'm able to freely consider downsides it has too.

 

Again, it's fine simply to say "I understand why they did it, and it's okay, and maybe I can even like parts of it (this part is not essential ), but since my tastes are what they are, I still personally wish they hadn't." Just be careful not to make it sound like that means that objectively they actually shouldn't have done it.

 

Plus, if you try not to make too much of your initial dislike and let it rule you from then on, you may be able to come to understand it better, see it in context more the way LEGO did when they made that call, and then actually learn to like it more. Kinda like how when we grow up we tend to start liking foods that when younger we thought we didn't like; tastes can change as you learn more. And this is good to do, because the whole point of Bionicle is entertainment; it can help you enjoy it more. =)

Edited October 8, 2014 by bonesiii

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

No it isn't, because I'm keeping my tastes in context, and not using them to say Bionicle MUST have protodermis how they have it, and when I'm showing objective reasons it makes sense, I'm not basing that logic on the preference, and I'm able to freely consider downsides it has too.

 

the context of.... protodermis? :0

 

(geez louise, you keep editing your posts between when i see them and when i quote them.)

[fishers64]

What is the alternative? Having some parts of the robot be protodermis and not others? Honestly, that's more confusing because now I have to keep track of what is protodermis and what isn't, and that is a further strain on the brain. 

 

And having everything in the giant robot be made of normal matter is boring. Plus also, having stuff be made of protodermis explains why powers exist in this universe and basically all of those other physics differences in a neat manner that ties it with a bow. Having everything being made of normal matter inside the robot, including its inhabitants would require a bunch of convoluted physics explanations to explain why the powers exist, not to mention everything else. *yawns*

 

Trust me, having a special substance to explain stuff actually keeps things simple in fiction. Even in writing one of my own stories, I have a substance to explain just a couple of abnormal physics phenomena (it makes sense in terms of the real world, though). Otherwise I'd spend the rest of my life researching convoluted physics explanations, which I personally find to be incredibly boring.

[Regitnui]

If I may, I'd like to refer to Gundam's Minovsky Particle: it's a single idea that enables the entire premise of the series, Much like protodermis does the premise (not 2001's premise, the whole thing) of Bionicle. There is precedence in fantasy fiction for this sort of thing, and last time I checked Gundam is one of the longest-running Mecha anime ever.

 

In short, there's nothing wrong with protodermis. It works. Removing protodermis from bionicle would be like removing the Minovsky Particle from Gundam.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

whoah, who mentioned removal of protodermis? i certainly never said that. :0

 

(i merely mentioned how botanical protodermis, muscular protodermis, and basically proto acting as a step-in for organic lifeforms sorta took away from some of it's initially recognisable properties, to the point it's not exactly worth having it still be a form of protodermis. )

 

(i'm also sitting here in confusion over how exactly botanical protodermis would function? as proto isn't known to grow on its own, iirc.)

 

Edit: ^Bones probably has an answer for that one all ready to go, i can feel it.^

Edited October 8, 2014 by Rahkshi Lalonde

[fishers64]

(i merely mentioned how botanical protodermis, muscular protodermis, and basically proto acting as a step-in for organic lifeforms sorta took away from some of it's initially recognisable properties, to the point it's not exactly worth having it still be a form of protodermis. )

Well, if it isn't protodermis, what is it? Normal matter? Some other magic substance? What would you have preferred organic lifeforms to be, if not protodermis?

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

probably flesh and vegitation. or, if metallic is preferred, a second magic-metal that's more organic than proto would have cleared up the whole mess. :0

[bonesiii]

(i'm also sitting here in confusion over how exactly botanical protodermis would function? as proto isn't known to grow on its own, iirc.)

 

Edit: ^Bones probably has an answer for that one all ready to go, i can feel it.^

I have a vast array of possible explanations for how protodermis works, but I'm purposefully staying away from it here because it's more important to understand the problem with the premise -- that if you don't understand how a fictional substance works, that's somehow bad.

 

No, if we knew how to make these things, we'd have them in real life. That's missing the point of fictional substances.

 

 

(Short answer is also that the logic of your specific doesn't work either. Normal matter doesn't normally grow on its own in the way organic normal matter does either, other than crystals under the right circumstances. Now we know a lot about how that works, but for most of history nobody did.)

Edited October 8, 2014 by bonesiii

[Regitnui]

Protodermis isn't metal. It's more like clay, able to be liquid, solid, and arguably organic. In fact, if clay was comic-book radioactive and able to turn wannabe potters into either X-men or corpses, it'd be a pretty good analog for Energized Protodermis.

 

In fact, clay is a pretty good analogy for protodermis in general.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

i think i'm gonna stop trying to think about this, since i'm not as intellectually-learned as bones is. s:

 

though now i'm all thinking about how much i enjoy proto in its liquid, stone, and metal forms. :0

[fishers64]

probably flesh and vegitation. or, if metallic is preferred, a second magic-metal that's more organic than proto would have cleared up the whole mess. :0

That's even more confusing, because the rock is proto, and all of the characters are some other thing.

 

This is confusing. Why can't everything be made of protodermis?

 

Also, why do the characters have powers, and does proto have powers? And if it does, why can't everything be made of protodermis, because that would make everything nice and consistant...right? If you want to avoid confusion, stick to one magic plastic. This story doesn't need two.

 

Further, the characters and the organics need the most to be made out of proto because they are powered, which is different from normal matter. That's the very thing proto was needed to explain in the first place!

[believe victims]

Question: if everything is protodermis, what exactly are the "nutrients" the Matoran get out of things designated as "food"? And if those nutrients are protodermis-based, why does absorbing them leave a husk, if the whole thing is protodermis? and what do they need the nutrients FOR, for that matter? does the protodermis need more protodermis to make protodermis? and how did they get nutrition on Mata Nui, which iirc, had non-protodermic life? if they rely on protodermis-based nutrients, wouldn't organic fruits be useless to them?

 

some of these questions could be nitpicky but to me they poke some holes into the idea of using protodermis to create everything, because organics are much more complicated than a single homogeneous material.

[Regitnui]

Humans are made out of carbon and water. That doesn't make us damp pieces of coal. Matoran have organic components under the entirely-protodermis armour. We're just not sure what other chemicals and elements make up those organic parts. Presumably oxygen is involved, as they breathe Spherus Magna air no problem. I'd claim there would be water or water-equivalent involved as well, because matoran need to drink. Perhaps they 'eat' like machines, causing a chemical reaction in the 'foods' that charges up an internal 'battery-stomach'.

 

Unquestionably, there's something else besides protodermis in the makeup of MU inhabitants. Much like Carbon is the 'stuff of life' in the inhabitants of the real world. Carbon forms so many different compounds so easily that it's the natural choice for our type of life. Perhaps protodermis is the same way.