Why did the Makuta put Mata Nui's spirit in the Ignika?

[Thormen]

OK so we know about the Makuta's master plan. We know he needed to dispose of Mata Nui's spirit somehow and he chose to do that by putting it into the Kanohi Ignika and launching it into outer space. My question is: why the Ignika? It's the most powerful mask in the Matoran Universe. If I were overthrowing someone my first choices would be (a) kill him or (b) put him in a position where he has no power. There were like a million powerless Matoran Kanohi he could've put his spirit into, why did he choose the most powerful Kanohi of all, the one Kanohi that could create a new body and grant its allies Elemental Powers? And come to think of it, why did he put his spirit in a Kanohi at all, which can survive outer space? Why didn't he just put Mata Nui's spirit into Hafu, ejected Hafu into outer space (he did that anyway) and that would be the end of it: Mata Nui would be dead.

 

BS01 states that the Makuta knew about the Ignika's power to obliterate all life in the Matoran Universe and wanted it gone for that reason, but that doesn't answer my question: the Makuta could have easily expelled both the Ignika and a hypothetical other host for the spirit of Mata Nui such as Hafu. That wouldn't solve the problem of having some sentient Kanohi out there with powers over life, but at least it would be controlled by the very immature Toa Ignika. Although the chances of Mata Nui coming back to fight the Makuta might have been small, it's like the Makuta was trying to run a risk here by giving the most powerful object in his universe the mind of the former most powerful being who he had now turned into his mortal enemy.

 

So, why?

[Ragnar Lothbrok]

Arrogance? Ironic statement?

 

Also, I doubt that Makuta thought Mata Nui would threaten him, so his expelled him, along with the most powerful mask in the universe, so that it could not be used against him inside the MU.

[Thormen]

Arrogance? Ironic statement?

That crossed my mind as well (well not the ironic statement, but the arrogance), but I was hoping there would be a better explanation.

 

Also, I doubt that Makuta thought Mata Nui would threaten him, so his expelled him, along with the most powerful mask in the universe, so that it could not be used against him inside the MU.

Actually he considered Mata Nui enough of a threat to go after him in 2010. He had a thousand years to think out the finer points of his second master plan (the one about taking over the giant robot) so I'd think it would have crossed his mind that there were less risky options. He could have easily expelled the Ignika and killed Mata Nui.

[Archon~]

It's more of that "2 birds one stone" kind of logic. He expected it to burn out in space along with Mata Nui. Too bad for him, but he was very wrong.

[Thormen]

It's more of that "2 birds one stone" kind of logic. He expected it to burn out in space along with Mata Nui. Too bad for him, but he was very wrong.

More of that logic? Did the Makuta use that logic before? I'd say the opposite actually, he seemed to need a lot of stones to delay the Toa Mata. It seems like he had a minion for everything.

 

I've actually been thinking a little more on this question and come up with a theory that might answer it: what if imprisoning Mata Nui in the Ignika was the only way? After all we don't know exactly how the Makuta did that, the story just says he intercepted Mata Nui's spirit as it was returning to his body. Maybe only the Ignika with its powers over life could be used to attract and imprison Mata Nui's spirit?

[fishers64]

 

It's more of that "2 birds one stone" kind of logic. He expected it to burn out in space along with Mata Nui. Too bad for him, but he was very wrong.

More of that logic? Did the Makuta use that logic before? I'd say the opposite actually, he seemed to need a lot of stones to delay the Toa Mata. It seems like he had a minion for everything.

 

I've actually been thinking a little more on this question and come up with a theory that might answer it: what if imprisoning Mata Nui in the Ignika was the only way? After all we don't know exactly how the Makuta did that, the story just says he intercepted Mata Nui's spirit as it was returning to his body. Maybe only the Ignika with its powers over life could be used to attract and imprison Mata Nui's spirit?

 

Possible - he is the "Great Spirit" after all. It probably would take something big or powerful to contain him, seeing as he was meant to be in something as big as a giant robot...

[dotcom]

Because the plot needed Mata Nui to not die, because then the bad guy really would have won, and this is Lego.

[Banana Gunz]

Well the Ignika was a danger, because it would probably have erased all life in the MU. It was in countdown at 2008 after all.

 

And he thought the mask would just burn up, and if he detected that it didn't, he would go and attempt to destroy it himself (which is exactly what happened).

[Toa Lhikan Hordika]

I think the biggest reason Teridax placed Mata Nui inside of the Ignika is because the Ignika was the biggest threat to his rule over the Matoran Universe.  With Teridax in control of the MU, things were once again not right and the Ignika likely would have started its countdown again to drain all life from the MU.  So by expelling the Ignika, along with Mata Nui's spirit, from his body Teridax had virtually no threats to his reign.

 

-

[bonesiii]

We don't know that he did choose it. It seems pretty clear it was the only option. Likely intentional design by the GBs (Safeguards R Us), plus maybe a little simple necessity; if the giant's design prevents simple deletion of Mata Nui (which would make sense), there may be only two places that could store that consciousness. The giant's brain itself, and the Legendary Mask of Life.

 

But I don't know if that's actually been confirmed...

[Makuta_of_Oz]

Well he had to get rid of the Ignika because if he didn't it would immediately turn black and kill everyone inside, including him.

 

I suppose re. Mata Nui's spirit he may have been concerned it could possess another body and then threaten him again.

[Pomegranate]

Is it plausible that the Ignika was the only object powerful enough to store the entire consciousness/life force of the Great Spirit? Maybe he wasn't aware that Mata Nui would be able to take control of the mask and have it create a body for him, or even that it would land on a planet, and if he did consider that last bit he may have been counting on the Ignika's curse to keep anyone from interacting with it.

[believe victims]

Well he had to get rid of the Ignika because if he didn't it would immediately turn black and kill everyone inside, including him.

 

I suppose re. Mata Nui's spirit he may have been concerned it could possess another body and then threaten him again.

 

No it wouldn't; it stopped its countdown because the Great Spirit was no longer dying. At least, we can assume it did, as it's gold when it's launched from the GSR.

 

 

Because the plot needed Mata Nui to not die, because then the bad guy really would have won, and this is Lego.

 

I pretty much came to this topic to say this exact thing.

[Axilus Prime]

The Ignika is the only thing capable of exterminating all the life inside him, which he needs. Mata Nui's spirit can't just be physically destroyed, it's a spirit. One being cannot contain two spirits, this was shown in '06 with the Iden, and in '07 with Makuta. The Ignika is the only non-organic mask than can hold a consciousness, and that space was cleared out when Toa Ignika sacrificed himself to restore Mata Nui.

 

Mata Nui's spirit was already established to be near the spirit chcamber, just blocked from being able to enter it because of Makuta's spirit being in the way. So, with him being there, and the only possible vessel being the Ignika, that's where he was put. Why eject him instead of smash the Ignika and kill him? Well, that'd probably have an effect akin to smashing the Vahi...except with Life instead of Time.

 

Boom. Makes perfect sense, no speculation involved, no issue here whatsoever. Glad to be of assistance.

 

(Oh, and if I came across as rude, apologies. I just hate when people write off things that can be easily explained as nonsense.)

Edited October 13, 2014 by Axilus Prime

[bonesiii]

 

Well he had to get rid of the Ignika because if he didn't it would immediately turn black and kill everyone inside, including him.

 

No it wouldn't; it stopped its countdown because the Great Spirit was no longer dying. At least, we can assume it did, as it's gold when it's launched from the GSR.

This is apparently not quite accurate; its countdown was in response to something like a balance of evil in the universe, and probably didn't stop until the moment it left the giant. As for why it's gold after that, that's just how it's designed; it only runs the countdown when it's inside. But I tried to review all this just now to confirm if my memory was right and only found a few obscure quotes mentioning bits of this in passing (mostly because I only had time to check a few), so don't "quote me" on it as the saying goes.

 

Also not sure at which point he stopped dying; was that after Matoro's sacrifice or his revival? (I mean, was he still slowly dying again after the revival?) If you mean Matoro's sacrifice, that's definitely not it; it didn't turn silver until after that. It stopped either at the awakening, or moments later when it was shot out, and apparently it's the latter.

 

Even if it stopped/reset the countdown at his awakening, it still presumably would have started again when it 'realized' Makuta had taken over the giant (it started in the first place because the other Makuta were in Karda Nui, which seems similar enough). Or at least Teridax would be aware of the possibility of this and didn't want to risk it. So, it might not have been immediate (as far as I know offhand), but the danger to Makuta was still there.

 

The Ignika is the only non-organic mask than can hold a consciousness, and that space was cleared out when Toa Ignika sacrificed himself to restore Mata Nui.

This doesn't really affect the rest of your post, I think, but here did you mean that there's no consciousness in the mask after Toa Ignika sacrificed himself? That isn't the case; the mind was still there, just not the body. The Ignika now has two consciousnesses in it. If you didn't mean it that way, ignore this.

Edited October 13, 2014 by bonesiii

[Archon~]

We don't know that he did choose it. It seems pretty clear it was the only option. Likely intentional design by the GBs (Safeguards R Us), plus maybe a little simple necessity; if the giant's design prevents simple deletion of Mata Nui (which would make sense), there may be only two places that could store that consciousness. The giant's brain itself, and the Legendary Mask of Life.

 

But I don't know if that's actually been confirmed...

You saying that it was the only way brings me to an idea...

What if storing Mata Nui into the Ignika and firing them was how Mata Nui would posses the planned second tobot?

[The Hip Historian Iaredios]

I agree with the "two birds, one stone" statement, but I think of the banishment and all afterwards to be blind arrogance. The Makuta had spent so long obsessively planning his usurpation that when he finally gained power he haf gone mad with power now that he had achieved his life's goal he didn't know what to do with himself. He then became be an aggressive expansionist and a totalitarian ruler bent on keeping power for the sake of keeping power, and anyone or anything threatening his self-appointed life's purpose would suffer an insane childish force of sheer brutality.

 

Or at least that's what I think, along those lines.

[Thormen]

Banana Gunz, Toa Lhikan Hordika and Makuta_of_Oz, why didn't he eject the Ignika and Mata Nui separately? i.e. Mata Nui inside some other body?

 

Possible - he is the "Great Spirit" after all. It probably would take something big or powerful to contain him, seeing as he was meant to be in something as big as a giant robot...

We don't know that he did choose it. It seems pretty clear it was the only option. Likely intentional design by the GBs (Safeguards R Us), plus maybe a little simple necessity; if the giant's design prevents simple deletion of Mata Nui (which would make sense), there may be only two places that could store that consciousness. The giant's brain itself, and the Legendary Mask of Life.

 

But I don't know if that's actually been confirmed...

Is it plausible that the Ignika was the only object powerful enough to store the entire consciousness/life force of the Great Spirit? Maybe he wasn't aware that Mata Nui would be able to take control of the mask and have it create a body for him, or even that it would land on a planet, and if he did consider that last bit he may have been counting on the Ignika's curse to keep anyone from interacting with it.

Yeah that's what I'm thinking, plus that it might have been necessary to use the Ignika's powers over life to attract Mata Nui's spirit.

 

 

Because the plot needed Mata Nui to not die, because then the bad guy really would have won, and this is Lego.

I pretty much came to this topic to say this exact thing.

 

Actually I don't think the plot really needed Mata Nui. The 2009 and 2010 plot could have happened with Toa Ignika as well, with some slight modifications. People have complained that Toa Ignika did not get enough time in the story and 2009 would give him an interesting background: he sacrificed his life to save his world, but instead ###### and is now exiled to another world altogether. (Edit: Really, word filter? That wasn't offensive at all. Okay then how about "but instead doomed it and is now exiled etc.")

 

Although it might have very well been possible that the story team really wanted to feature Mata Nui as a character, but it wasn't their only option.

 

One being cannot contain two spirits, this was shown in '06 with the Iden, and in '07 with Makuta. The Ignika is the only non-organic mask than can hold a consciousness, and that space was cleared out when Toa Ignika sacrificed himself to restore Mata Nui.

This doesn't really affect the rest of your post, I think, but here did you mean that there's no consciousness in the mask after Toa Ignika sacrificed himself? That isn't the case; the mind was still there, just not the body. The Ignika now has two consciousnesses in it. If you didn't mean it that way, ignore this.

That's the thing, Mata Nui's spirit apparently can be stored inside a vessel that already has a spirit inside it, and then the second spirit will just be suppressed. The part about the Iden doesn't really apply here: the Makuta had no trouble possessing Matoro's body when his spirit had departed and was not at all worried about finding a place to store it, but when the Makuta possessed Mata Nui's body he had to find a vessel to store Mata Nui's spirit inside, presumably because he would otherwise have been suppressed by Mata Nui's spirit just like Toa Ignika. And in any case, the Makuta could also have simply imprisoned Mata Nui's spirit inside a spiritless body, if you're the Master of Shadows those are not hard to come by.

 

You saying that it was the only way brings me to an idea...

What if storing Mata Nui into the Ignika and firing them was how Mata Nui would posses the planned second tobot?

That's a good point. So essentially the Great Beings designed Mata Nui's spirit to be almost impossible to remove, but since they needed the Makuta to take over they made it possible for him to use the Ignika to contain the spirit and then transport it to the third robot so the Shattering could be undone. IMO that makes a lot of sense.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Thormen

[Axilus Prime]

 

One being cannot contain two spirits, this was shown in '06 with the Iden, and in '07 with Makuta. The Ignika is the only non-organic mask than can hold a consciousness, and that space was cleared out when Toa Ignika sacrificed himself to restore Mata Nui.

This doesn't really affect the rest of your post, I think, but here did you mean that there's no consciousness in the mask after Toa Ignika sacrificed himself? That isn't the case; the mind was still there, just not the body. The Ignika now has two consciousnesses in it. If you didn't mean it that way, ignore this.

That's the thing, Mata Nui's spirit apparently can be stored inside a vessel that already has a spirit inside it, and then the second spirit will just be suppressed. The part about the Iden doesn't really apply here: the Makuta had no trouble possessing Matoro's body when his spirit had departed and was not at all worried about finding a place to store it, but when the Makuta possessed Mata Nui's body he had to find a vessel to store Mata Nui's spirit inside, presumably because he would otherwise have been suppressed by Mata Nui's spirit just like Toa Ignika. And in any case, the Makuta could also have simply imprisoned Mata Nui's spirit inside a spiritless body, if you're the Master of Shadows those are not hard to come by.

 

Those are harder to come by than you might think. None were in proximity to the spirit chamber, and it isn't exactly easy or common to separate a spirit from a body and keep the body alive.

 

So, basically you answered your own question, except you must understand one more thing: The Ignika was the only thing he could have put him in. And of course as I already said, he had to eject him rather than destroy the Ignika because dying really wasn't high on Makuta's priorities list at the moment.

[Xeo]

It was killing two birds with one stone. He couldn't leave the Ignika in his new body as the countdown would continue. And he couldn't leave Mata Nui in to potentially thwart him. So, he basically downloaded Mata Nui's spirit into the ignika and got rid of both.

[Thormen]

Those are harder to come by than you might think. None were in proximity to the spirit chamber, and it isn't exactly easy or common to separate a spirit from a body and keep the body alive.

I hardly think so, all it requires is capturing somebody with the ability to wear Great Kanohi, put an Iden on them and force them to use it. The Makuta could then possess it so the bearer couldn't return, use it to get to the Core Processor, wait until the Mata awoke Mata Nui and make the switch. The Brotherhood has done stranger things than that and this was their grand master plan. And all of that is assuming he needed a spiritless vessel in the first place, which he apparently didn't since the Ignika already had a spirit.

[Tuuli]

He wanted to save some time and thinking so he pushed mata-nuis spirit into the ignika and launched them both out to cut back on time

[Axilus Prime]

 

Those are harder to come by than you might think. None were in proximity to the spirit chamber, and it isn't exactly easy or common to separate a spirit from a body and keep the body alive.

I hardly think so, all it requires is capturing somebody with the ability to wear Great Kanohi, put an Iden on them and force them to use it. The Makuta could then possess it so the bearer couldn't return, use it to get to the Core Processor, wait until the Mata awoke Mata Nui and make the switch. The Brotherhood has done stranger things than that and this was their grand master plan. And all of that is assuming he needed a spiritless vessel in the first place, which he apparently didn't since the Ignika already had a spirit.

 

 

That would give Mata Nui plenty of time to suppress Makuta. And we've already established he didn't need a spiritless vessel. But Makuta can't just poof a vessel out of thin air. The simple fact is, the Ignika being in the MU was a threat to him, and Mata Nui had to be sealed into something. Destroying the Ignika's obviously not an option, so...seal Mata Nui in the Ignika and eject both is the only logical course of action.

[Thormen]

That would give Mata Nui plenty of time to suppress Makuta.

I didn't say he had to do all that at the last minute. He had thousands of years to find somebody and give them an Iden. If you're thinking the actual switching at the last moment would've taken too much time, that's a fair point. We don't know how much time exactly he had before Mata Nui returned and we don't know how much time it takes for a Makuta to switch from one suit of armor to the other. However, he didn't have to possess the Iden bearer himself, some of the Brotherhood's members were fiercely loyal to him and could've done that for him.

 

And we've already established he didn't need a spiritless vessel. But Makuta can't just poof a vessel out of thin air.

He didn't have to poof a vessel out of thin air. There were a dozen beings right there with him in the Core Processor that he didn't mind ejecting into space. And apparently they didn't even need to be that close, the Ignika was all the way in Karda Nui but the Makuta still managed to imprison Mata Nui's spirit in it. There were probably millions of beings closer to the Core Processor than the Ignika was and they were all suitable candidates.

[Banana Gunz]

 

Well he had to get rid of the Ignika because if he didn't it would immediately turn black and kill everyone inside, including him.

 

I suppose re. Mata Nui's spirit he may have been concerned it could possess another body and then threaten him again.

 

No it wouldn't; it stopped its countdown because the Great Spirit was no longer dying. At least, we can assume it did, as it's gold when it's launched from the GSR.

 

*snip*

 

It was gold when it was ejected from the universe. When it was in Karda Nui when the Great Spirit was still asleep, it was silver, one of the colors of it's countdown sequence. The Ignika could've still decided to obliterate all life in the robot for any number of reasons. For all we know about the extent of its powers, it could be able to detect when someone else's spirit invaded the mind of the robot.

[Thormen]

OK, so I was just reading the Chat with Greg Farshtey on the Lego Message Boards, and apparently Boidoh asked Greg a question related to this topic yesterday and Greg answered it today:

 

1. Could Teridax force Mata Nui's spirit in any other mask besides the Ignika?

 

1) I suppose so

So basically that disproves every theory posted here except the idea that the Makuta didn't care all that much (e.g. "two birds with one stone" and "he didn't think Mata Nui would be a threat"). While that does shed some light on this question, I really wish people would provide some context when asking Greg questions about topics that are being discussed on BZP.

 

Here's the deal: do you have the right to ask Greg any question? Yes, you have every right. If you do that, is Greg's answer canon? Yes it is.

 

However: the BIONICLE universe and storyline was carefully crafted by the story team and Greg. There's not a person on BZP that doesn't love BIONICLE because of all the effort and attention to detail that was put into it, and that effort is geared at making the BIONICLE universe make sense and preventing contradictions from arising. If you get Greg to canonize something that doesn't fit the context and possibly even results in a contradiction, you are damaging that carefully crafted thing we call BIONICLE.

 

Take the point about which fragment of Spherus Magna hit the Makuta in the head for example: the earlier story bible upon which the Mata Nui Saga and Journey's End were based said the Makuta was hit in the head by Bota Magna, while this was later changed to (a fragment of) Aqua Magna, which was featured in Comic #7 'Rebirth'. When asked, Greg refused to pick which of these was more canon: i.e. both are considered equally canon. Now imagine if we were to get him to contradict a lot more stuff about the entire story, what would that look like?

 

The story could have been this:

 

Mata Nui used his powers to draw the two fragments of Spherus Magna nearer, but then the Makuta arrived. The two fought an intense battle and Makuta tried to crush Mata Nui with his gravity powers but Mata Nui knocked his arms away and redirected the gravity powers to the two fragments of Spherus Magna. Tahu used the Golden Armor to kill all the Rahkshi and the Makuta was distracted, giving Mata Nui the opportunity to knock him into Bota Magna's path and the fragment crushed the Makuta's head, killing him.

But if we push for contradictions it might end up like this:

 

Mata Nui used his powers to draw the two or three fragments of Spherus Magna nearer, but then the Makuta arrived (or possibly this happened earlier). The two fought an intense battle and Makuta tried to crush Mata Nui with his gravity or telekinetic powers but Mata Nui knocked his arms away (or maybe it was Mata Nui who was using his gravity or telekinetic powers on the Makuta and the Makuta knocked his arms away) and redirected the gravity or telekinetic powers to the two or three fragments of Spherus Magna. Tahu used the Golden Armor to kill all the Rahkshi or maybe he only absorbed their powers, leaving them alive, or maybe Tahu absorbed their powers and Takanuva incinerated their essence but in any case the Makuta was distracted, giving Mata Nui the opportunity to knock him into Bota Magna's path, or Aqua Magna's path or maybe the path of just a fragment of Aqua Magna and the fragment crushed the Makuta's head or maybe hit him in the chest, killing him.

Honestly, which version do we prefer?

 

(BTW this is not a message to Boidoh, he's not the only one who's asking Greg questions out there and if I wanted to say something to Boidoh I would've PMed him. This is a message to everybody who's thinking about asking Greg questions: please, for the sake of BIONICLE itself, provide him with some context before he starts blowing holes in the storyline)

[bonesiii]

 

Quote

1. Could Teridax force Mata Nui's spirit in any other mask besides the Ignika?

 

1) I suppose so

So basically that disproves every theory posted here except the idea that the Makuta didn't care all that much (e.g. "two birds with one stone" and "he didn't think Mata Nui would be a threat").

Hmmmmmm.... I'm not so sure it does. It disproves an idea that he needed the Ignika to store it (but that was just one theory I had; our theories need not be confirmed yanno ), but that's not all that surprising because we have seen spirits stored in masks before (Jaller, Takanuva). Isn't he still "killing two birds with one stone" by both ejecting the Ignika and Mata Nui at once, rather than ejecting some other mask with MN as well as the Ignika?

 

 

That said, I absolutely positively majorly (etc.) agree with the rest of your post. Caution to avoid risk of forgetcons is very important.

 

I'm just not sure that's what we're seeing in this case...

 

Now if Greg had on a whim declared that Makuta could easily have just deleted Mata Nui (or destroyed his spirit, however you wanna describe it), then I'd be concerned (as it would be unrealistic to just assume he didn't care). But this leaves open the possibility that he couldn't, so I don't mind it personally. Also, Greg's implied reluctance could be taken as meaning that it would be much trickier to do that and maybe Makuta himself isn't likely to think of it, so the Ignika would still seem like the "only" option.

Edited October 13, 2014 by bonesiii

[Boidoh]

Oh great. It looks like every time I ask a question on the LMB there ends up a problem... Even now when Greg didn't retcon anything, still a problem...

 

At least this time I can't be accused of "trying to extort answers I want to hear from Greg".

[Thormen]

Hmmmmmm.... I'm not so sure it does. It disproves an idea that he needed the Ignika to store it (but that was just one theory I had; our theories need not be confirmed yanno ), but that's not all that surprising because we have seen spirits stored in masks before (Jaller, Takanuva). Isn't he still "killing two birds with one stone" by both ejecting the Ignika and Mata Nui at once, rather than ejecting some other mask with MN as well as the Ignika?

Yeah 'killing two birds with one stone' is still possible, but I was opposed to that since it seemed very OoC for the Makuta. Especially since he had thousands of years to think the plan up and he regretted it like a month after he took over. Still, I can't think of anything better at the moment...

 

I'm just not sure that's what we're seeing in this case...

Greg's answer doesn't result in a contradiction so no, I wouldn't call it a forgetcon. However it does contradict the most promising theory we had in this topic, and that really could have been avoided if context was provided.

 

Oh great. It looks like every time I ask a question on the LMB there ends up a problem... Even now when Greg didn't retcon anything, still a problem...

 

At least this time I can't be accused of "trying to extort answers I want to hear from Greg".

Boidoh, my post was not meant to single you out. Most of the questions you ask Greg do not cause any problems. However, you also prefer a coherent storyline over a self-contradictory mess, right? You know Greg makes up most of these answers as he goes along, they are only important since he is considered the authority of the BIONICLE universe we love. However, if you're (and anybody else is) not careful, this is going to lead to him turning BIONICLE into something we really don't want to see.

[fishers64]

I'm not sure Mata Nui and the Ignika by themselves would be a serious threat to Makuta the Giant Robot from outside the bot. The only reason Mata Nui became a threat was because he found the prototype, and only just barely. And Makuta didn't know the prototype existed, nor of any other robots. 

 

 

You saying that it was the only way brings me to an idea...
What if storing Mata Nui into the Ignika and firing them was how Mata Nui would posses the planned second tobot?

That's a good point. So essentially the Great Beings designed Mata Nui's spirit to be almost impossible to remove, but since they needed the Makuta to take over they made it possible for him to use the Ignika to contain the spirit and then transport it to the third robot so the Shattering could be undone. IMO that makes a lot of sense.

I think this goes back to the theory that the Great Beings wanted the Makuta to take over so Mata Nui would come to BM and find the prototype. In which case they would introduce a last-minute emergency subroutine in the event of M's takeover, Mata Nui's spirit would be safely ejected in the Ignika. 

 

There is a problem with that, though - what if Makuta took over on Ataris IV instead of on Aqua Magna? Then Mata Nui would be miles away from the needed prototype and possibly die. 

 

It's also possible that they didn't expect a hostile takeover, but rather for Mata Nui to "ring up Teridax on the phone" upon seeing the prototype with his sensors and arrange for a spirit switch. Then he would use the Ignika to get the power source and the prototype bot. Terry could drag the prototype together, Mata Nui could take it, and wallah planet restoration. Pokes a hole in an old theory, but I'm all for doing that every so often.

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

Plot convenience. 

 

-NotS

[Thormen]

I'm not sure Mata Nui and the Ignika by themselves would be a serious threat to Makuta the Giant Robot from outside the bot. The only reason Mata Nui became a threat was because he found the prototype, and only just barely. And Makuta didn't know the prototype existed, nor of any other robots.

That's true, but why would the Makuta have come to Bara Magna then? As far as I know Mata Nui hadn't even found the Prototype Robot yet before the Makuta decided to go after him.

 

I think this goes back to the theory that the Great Beings wanted the Makuta to take over so Mata Nui would come to BM and find the prototype. In which case they would introduce a last-minute emergency subroutine in the event of M's takeover, Mata Nui's spirit would be safely ejected in the Ignika. 

 

There is a problem with that, though - what if Makuta took over on Ataris IV instead of on Aqua Magna? Then Mata Nui would be miles away from the needed prototype and possibly die.

I think we could fix that with destiny. After all it was said that when Mata Nui redirected the Makuta's gravity beams towards Bota Magna and Aqua Magna, the Makuta was actually completing his destiny. There appears to be a part of the AI that ensures that even if the biomechanical beings take a different path than was intended for them, they will unknowingly steer back towards their destiny and fulfill it in the end (at least that's my interpretation of how destiny should work). So that could also explain why he didn't take over on Ataris IV: because he would make his destiny impossible and his own AI wasn't going to allow that.

 

Actually the more I think about it, the more it looks like a reasonable answer to my original question: if the Great Beings have the technology to 'pull' people back towards the plans they made for them, i.e. to have them fulfill their destiny, then they would've made sure that the ultimate goal of the entire project was protected by that destiny technology. In other words, the Makuta simply couldn't kill Mata Nui or really render him harmless, since it was his destiny to leave Mata Nui alive and able to undo the Shattering. Maybe the Makuta's own AI refused to completely wipe Mata Nui out because of this kind of failsafe?

 

It's also possible that they didn't expect a hostile takeover, but rather for Mata Nui to "ring up Teridax on the phone" upon seeing the prototype with his sensors and arrange for a spirit switch. Then he would use the Ignika to get the power source and the prototype bot. Terry could drag the prototype together, Mata Nui could take it, and wallah planet restoration. Pokes a hole in an old theory, but I'm all for doing that every so often.

Yes that was more or less how I interpreted what Greg has said about the Makuta's destiny before. AFAIK he said that it was his destiny to take over, just not in the way that he eventually did. The Great Beings obviously didn't plan on having two giant robots engage in a superatmospherical boxing match while basically every inhabitant of the planet was at war BTW in what theory does it poke a hole?

[toa kopaka4372]

I think everyone here is overthinking this. It was a matter of convenience. Teridax wanted to get rid of the Ignika, which could be used against him, and Mata Nui, for obvious reasons. He put the two together and hurled them into outerspace. I believe it was confirmed a long time ago, back when Greg was still around on here, that the Ignika couldn't be destroyed in the vicinity of the Matoran Universe, so of course Teridax didn't destroy it; it had to be gone a long way away. I do think that it was mentioned in Journey's End that Teridax kept track of the mask's progress (so he didn't just forget about it), lest Mata Nui be extremely fortunate and somehow find a way back. Contrary to Teridax's expectations, it didn't burn up and landed on Bara Magna. Almost immediately after Teridax went there himself to make sure once and for all that Mata Nui was destroyed. All things considered, Teridax's actions were reasonable. Think about it from his perspective: what were the chances Mata Nui would land on his planet of origin, make a body, ally with the locals, find a power source for a giant robot, and have his own army ready to fight for him?

 

Mata Nui was very fortunate, to say the least. 

[bonesiii]

toakopaka, most of that isn't really what the topic is asking about. Yes, the Ignika had to be ejected, but the question is whether Mata Nui had to be, and if not, why Teridax didn't do the smarter thing and just "delete"/kill him right away. It's a fair and reasonable question.

[toa kopaka4372]

toakopaka, most of that isn't really what the topic is asking about. Yes, the Ignika had to be ejected, but the question is whether Mata Nui had to be, and if not, why Teridax didn't do the smarter thing and just "delete"/kill him right away. It's a fair and reasonable question.

I reread the opening post more carefully and apologize. I didn't quite catch the main question the first time around.

 

I would say then that only the Ignika could hold Mata Nui, but that appears to have been disproved...

[fishers64]

 

I'm not sure Mata Nui and the Ignika by themselves would be a serious threat to Makuta the Giant Robot from outside the bot. The only reason Mata Nui became a threat was because he found the prototype, and only just barely. And Makuta didn't know the prototype existed, nor of any other robots.

That's true, but why would the Makuta have come to Bara Magna then? As far as I know Mata Nui hadn't even found the Prototype Robot yet before the Makuta decided to go after him.

 

It was there, and Makuta likes destroying stuff. Basically, there was a slim chance that Mata Nui could become a threat. Also the prototype was assembled by the time Makuta decided to go - those sensors could have told him that there was a threat there.

 

MN + Ig = no threat. MN + Ig + prototype = a threat, possibly a major one.

 

As for destiny not allowing that sort of thing, it is possible. I prefer to use the destiny excuse only when I have to though, because in Bionicle destiny is kind of an amorphous contruct of GB intention and failsafe correction of sapient freewilled beings.

 

 

It's also possible that they didn't expect a hostile takeover, but rather for Mata Nui to "ring up Teridax on the phone" upon seeing the prototype with his sensors and arrange for a spirit switch. Then he would use the Ignika to get the power source and the prototype bot. Terry could drag the prototype together, Mata Nui could take it, and wallah planet restoration. Pokes a hole in an old theory, but I'm all for doing that every so often.

Yes that was more or less how I interpreted what Greg has said about the Makuta's destiny before. AFAIK he said that it was his destiny to take over, just not in the way that he eventually did. The Great Beings obviously didn't plan on having two giant robots engage in a superatmospherical boxing match while basically every inhabitant of the planet was at war BTW in what theory does it poke a hole? 

 

The theory that the GBs intended Makuta to take over so that MN would be ejected and find the prototype.

[Toa Green Ninja]

There's an incredibly simple reason why Teridax put Mata Nui's consciousness in the Ignika: to get rid of him. He was certainly trapped in the Mask of Life. It's not like Teridax knew that the mask would land on a planet and create a body for him. And even then, there would be the question of how Mata Nui would get back to the Matoran Universe even if if he did.

 

Teridax should have just stayed on Aqua Magna, because he risked his life to make sure Mata Nui was taken care of, when he shouldn't have even cared anymore. Teridax specifically said that he didn't view the Great Spirit as a threat once he had taken over...

[Boidoh]

I my self am surprised that the Ignika didn't burn up in the atmosphere of Bara Magna...

[Thormen]

There's an incredibly simple reason why Teridax put Mata Nui's consciousness in the Ignika: to get rid of him. He was certainly trapped in the Mask of Life. It's not like Teridax knew that the mask would land on a planet and create a body for him. And even then, there would be the question of how Mata Nui would get back to the Matoran Universe even if if he did.

[T]he Makuta could have easily expelled both the Ignika and a hypothetical other host for the spirit of Mata Nui such as Hafu. That wouldn't solve the problem of having some sentient Kanohi out there with powers over life, but at least it would be controlled by the very immature Toa Ignika. Although the chances of Mata Nui coming back to fight the Makuta might have been small, it's like the Makuta was trying to run a risk here by giving the most powerful object in his universe the mind of the former most powerful being who he had now turned into his mortal enemy.

I my self am surprised that the Ignika didn't burn up in the atmosphere of Bara Magna...

Hmmm, I think that if the Great Beings were going to put the Ignika inside an active volcano they would have made sure it could withstand a little heat . At the start of Mask of Light the Kanohi Avohkii is dropped in lava and it comes out as new, so Kanohi probably have very high heat resistance.

[The Hip Historian Iaredios]

Hmmm, I think that if the Great Beings were going to put the Ignika inside an active volcano they would have made sure it could withstand a little heat . At the start of Mask of Light the Kanohi Avohkii is dropped in lava and it comes out as new, so Kanohi probably have very high heat resistance.

Or maybe that only applies to special Kanohi, since the Ignika and Avokhii are far from being the average mask.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Iaredios