Feminizing BIONICLE

[Toa Green Ninja]

Same here, in fact. I should I add your quote to the first post!

[The Undertaken]

Yeah objectification is a bad idea at the best of times. Actually why I was looking for ways of feminizing the builds without use of breasts. 'Cause it's so very easy to objectify once you start going down that route...

[Pomegranate]

Yeah objectification is a bad idea at the best of times. Actually why I was looking for ways of feminizing the builds without use of breasts. 'Cause it's so very easy to objectify once you start going down that route...

Proportions are the key, really. Narrower shoulders, wider hips, thinner necks, and positioning of the legs are the most obvious, reliable traits. You don't need all of them and you don't even need to exaggerate them, but you can just tell from the silhouette. Even with bulky, angular armor, these can help you make a feminine figure, which I wanted to mention 'cause a lot of suggestions in this topic involve making sleeker armored builds and sometimes that's just really hard with the parts we've got, and the ladies really shouldn't be put at a defensive disadvantage just for the sake of "looking feminine"

Edited October 18, 2014 by Pomegranate

[The Undertaken]

Yeah,I kinda noticed that, thanks though!

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

I think the problem I had with female Bionicle characters in the past is that LEGO chose to give some of them extremely manly masks. I understand there is a limitation with armour, and not every build has to be proportioned accurately for the female gender (then again, when has any character have had good proportions?), but the mask really brings out a lot of character.

 

Gali/Gali Nuva was alright. Nokama in Turaga and Metru iterations looked great. I won't bother discussing the female villains/mutations, because like the rest of their factions they were supposed to look grotesque. Not gonna get started with Roodaka either (though to be fair, it was pretty impressive that for a series that has awful gender ratios a female was treated as the major titan set of 2005, which is a first and a last). The problems arose with characters like, Hali Inika and Gali Mistika. 

 

Hahli Mahri is a step above Hahli Inika, who is wow. Like, whose idea was it to give Hahli a mustache? She looks just as manly as the rest of the Inika to be fair, but an addition like that tube does not help. They could of swapped her mask with say... er, Jaller's? Or Matoro's? And Gali Mistika is just a mass of bulk with a cold machine-like mask. She's a powerhouse, looking deadlier and tankier than both Pohatu and Onua that year. Now, there's nothing wrong with a female designed like this. But it doesn't fit her description, and it's a very poor identification of the only female in the group since... no one can identify her apart from her brethren. Again, any other Toa mask from that year would have fit her character a lot better. 

 

Now, Kiina was a step in the right direction. But that year had the worst gender ratio of all years, which is funny since it was supposed to abolish the uni-sexual classes.

 

I think by comparison to some of the sets I mentioned, Gali 2015 looks good. The design isn't inherently female but it doesn't go out of its way to look overly manly either.

 

-NotS

Edited October 18, 2014 by Nidhiki of the Shadows

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

well, that was a mildly uncomfortable read, :T

 

anyways, to the point, it /is/ very difficult to pertray "she's a gal" in bionicle parts, and, potentially harder to do so in HF/CCBS parts. since their unit-based scaling and bony limbs lead to, erm. lets just say if you extend the hips out even a bit to properly fix her shoulder/waist/hips ratio, you're setting up one monster of a thigh gap. :u

 

(there's probs some ways of using tiny technichy bits to bulk up the thighs themselves but idk what that'd be.)

 

(ALSO, this thinking is only for the "ideal feminine" obvs, i got no problem with girls with some muscle getting representation, and neither should you. :b)

[Akavakaku]

Something no one has brought up yet is that these characters are WEARING ARMOR. In a reasonably protective suit of armor, it's very hard to tell someone's proportions (see Lord of the Rings). Not that armor in constraction sets is practical at all, but if the male characters get heavy armor that obscures their figure I see no reason why the female characters shouldn't.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

Something no one has brought up yet is that these characters are WEARING ARMOR. In a reasonably protective suit of armor, it's very hard to tell someone's proportions (see Lord of the Rings). Not that armor in constraction sets is practical at all, but if the male characters get heavy armor that obscures their figure I see no reason why the female characters shouldn't.

 

i believe we're talking about situations like, idk. breakout Evo having abs. (a robot with muscular abs and pecs is just as weird as a robot with boobs, don't say it isn't.)

Edited October 19, 2014 by Rahkshi Lalonde

[Jacks]

There's also the fact that the protective armor is more like an exoskeleton than a suit.

 

Of course, that raises the question of why a species with exoskeletons should be expected to have human-like sexual dimorphism, but like Rahkshi Lalonde said, it wouldn't be any weirder than a robot with abs.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

actual advice time tho:

 

for adding curve/substance to the chest, try to avoid pieces kanohi-size and up (unless you're planning to give her structure in her waist and shoulders to match, but remember Bionicle kinda has a set humanoid head size, so looking weirdly disproportionate happens at a pretty low scale.)

 

if it weren't for weird-face-shaped-holes, the 2001 pakari is (i think) well shaped for a thigh to match the piraka shin piece though. o:

[Aanchir]

 

Something no one has brought up yet is that these characters are WEARING ARMOR. In a reasonably protective suit of armor, it's very hard to tell someone's proportions (see Lord of the Rings). Not that armor in constraction sets is practical at all, but if the male characters get heavy armor that obscures their figure I see no reason why the female characters shouldn't.

 

i believe we're talking about situations like, idk. breakout Evo having abs. (a robot with muscular abs and pecs is just as weird as a robot with boobs, don't say it isn't.)

 

Not really, since the abs on the Breakout torso shells seem designed to function as a stylized accordion joint, same as the Toa Mata's midsections. In truth, it's a critically flawed comparison. Muscles are not just for show, or for reproductive functions like nurturing a baby. Muscles play a key role in human strength and flexibility. So replacing muscles with mechanical equivalents like accordion joints or pistons makes complete sense. That justification does not exist for sculpted breasts on a female character any more than for a sculpted phallus on a male character.

 

Granted, I don't think every aspect of a mechanical or biomechanical character's design has to make sense in-universe. Making the character relatable to human viewers is another important design factor. Character traits that help the viewer identify the character's sex can be a part of that. But obviously, that isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card for all questionable design choices. Exaggerated breasts will obviously make it easier for viewers to tell the character is female, but at the same time, they will also alienate viewers who find the design tasteless or offensive. Reducing a character to a sex object makes it harder, not easier, for many viewers to relate to the character on a personal level.

 

If you do want to give your model, say, a highly suggestive crotch cannon for the sake of symbolism, that's your own business. A symbol like that will make a lot of people uncomfortable, and sometimes, that's the goal. But you can't then expect an average viewer to relate to the bot with the crotch cannon on a personal level. A robot character with oversized, highly suggestive cushions on her chest is no different.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

I don't think a SCULPTED SIX PACK really serves a functional purpose as much as piston or gear details would, but i (almost) see the point there. :0

 

 

 

Then i read "crotch cannon" and forgot everything.

[Banana Gunz]

 

 

Something no one has brought up yet is that these characters are WEARING ARMOR. In a reasonably protective suit of armor, it's very hard to tell someone's proportions (see Lord of the Rings). Not that armor in constraction sets is practical at all, but if the male characters get heavy armor that obscures their figure I see no reason why the female characters shouldn't.

 

i believe we're talking about situations like, idk. breakout Evo having abs. (a robot with muscular abs and pecs is just as weird as a robot with boobs, don't say it isn't.)

 

*snip*

 

If you do want to give your model, say, a highly suggestive crotch cannon for the sake of symbolism, that's your own business. A symbol like that will make a lot of people uncomfortable, and sometimes, that's the goal. But you can't then expect an average viewer to relate to the bot with the crotch cannon on a personal level. A robot character with oversized, highly suggestive cushions on her chest is no different.

 

 

Oh man, let's make Bionicle crotch canons be a thing. People always did ask for more functions in sets. Make it like a midak crotch blaster...

 

I've gone too far with this haven't I?

[Irrie]

Now, my opinion is similar to what most others have been saying on this topic. A feminine form is perfectly alright when building MOCs, however if it's exaggerated, it becomes a wee bit too much. 

As for Lego's marketing of the gender ratio, they were spot on when it came to having a predominately male cast. When I was a young lad, I was a very sexist one. I was horrified when I found out that all of the blue Bionicles were female, and I became somewhat ashamed to be a fan of it because of the presence of female characters. I got over it about a year or so, but that was because I started following it in the latter part of my childhood. 

However from a moral perspective, I would have liked it better if the gender ratios were abolished. But Lego is a company, and companies need to make money. The concept of sexist gender divisions is an older fan creation. Lego is trying to market to children, not nostalgic twenty-year-olds that have a sense of what is socially proper and what isn't. 

As for Gali's Gen2 appearance, I have no problem with it. Gali was never the holder of a very feminine look since she always came out as a clone set. 

 

Something no one has brought up yet is that these characters are WEARING ARMOR. In a reasonably protective suit of armor, it's very hard to tell someone's proportions (see Lord of the Rings). Not that armor in constraction sets is practical at all, but if the male characters get heavy armor that obscures their figure I see no reason why the female characters shouldn't.

Reading through this topic, I was going to make that point, however you beat me to it. 

The characters in Bionicle (at least most of them) wear some kind of armor. Usually the only difference in male or female armor in real life (from the research I've done, at least), (and excluding the obvious difference in torso shape) are slight curves in the upper chest. I honestly see no need for what they gave Roodaka, nor do I see a need for a lot of that junk that periodically shows up on image hosting websites *cough* Deviantart *cough*. 

Making overly sexual MOCs is a really immoral thing to do, considering that Bionicle is a kid's line IMO. 

Of course, I haven't ever made any female-looking Bionicle MOCs due to my n00bish tendencies to use the Inika build, so don't take my opinions dead seriously.

However as for canon characters, their masculinity or femininity should be apparent in not just their looks, but personality as well. I'm all for abolishing sterotypes (I liked how they made Dalu different from most of the Ga-characters that we saw before her), but there needs to be some sort of story clue that hints toward their gender (for every Dalu personality, there needs to be two Gali personalities). I know this makes me sound like a sexist-ish person, but society has built up images of what they imagine genders to behave like, and there needs to be a few that follow that for it to seem as if it were a realistic story. 

Edited October 19, 2014 by The Irrational Rock

[Ragnar Lothbrok]

Whilst the argument for skewed gender ratios is an old and beaten one, I think it is important that LEGO address it. I haven't read or heard many interviews from NYCC, but did anybody attending the Bionicle panel ask the team about this?

 

Many franchises as mentioned earlier have a better ratios that 1:5, with recent films such as Hunger Games giving us less obnoxious feminine characters. I have no facts to say whether Katniss was supported by a strong male audience, but it more than likely is considering its success.

 

Perhaps LEGO can take note of these leading female protagonists and implement their own in the coming years. A 4:2 or even 3:3 ratio (ala Harry, Ron, Hermione, Luna, Ginny and Neville at the end of Order of the Phoenix) for Toa Teams might prove to be successful.

 

 

Sets is more difficult. I've seen great examples by Aanchir for displaying the female form (well done sir!) and I must admit that I too have used the Nuva shoulder armour on female MoCs in the past (Nuva + boobs = noobs, guys) but now I tend to use 1 of Matoro's shoulder armour pieces as chest armour, it has a slight curve which works as an overall chest (I'll try to get a picture of my Hahli Mahri MoC on here tomorrow as an example). Simplicity really is the key.

 

I also agree with others here that slightly more feminine or neutral masks work best for attracting a female audience. Nokama Metru's Rau, for example, is elegant and works perfectly on female Toa alike, but certainly does not look out of place on a Male Toa MoC.

[cyan-king]

you guys make me sick.

 

no one here is talking about booty.

 

absolutely unacceptable.

[Sharsharkan]

[i don't know how you thought that was appropriate, but no. -Wind-]

Edited October 20, 2014 by -Windrider-

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

"the booty" isn't filtered by the word filter? hmm, interesting.

 

on-topic again: i just remembered, no length of CCBS shell makes reasonable female-chest-convexes on anything smaller than 2015 Lewa. (sorta an opinion, but idk.)

[Ragnar Lothbrok]

I think that LEGO try to keep the male and female build similar most times to leave it to the imagination of the buyer. It's when you delve into the lore that you find gender. Until you read BS01 or watch tye animations, a fan might think Lewa or Kopaka are female and Gali male.

 

Just a hypothesis, not one I am fully committed to either, just throwing things onto a keyboard

[Irrie]

I think that LEGO try to keep the male and female build similar most times to leave it to the imagination of the buyer.

Really? I thought that they did that to keep the continuity with the clone sets. 

[Klak]

I used to be put off by the manliness of female Bionicle sets. Now, it is no longer a major concern for me. I guess it just comes with age or something.

 

Still, I laughed to myself when I noticed how built Gali looks.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

 

I think that LEGO try to keep the male and female build similar most times to leave it to the imagination of the buyer.

Really? I thought that they did that to keep the continuity with the clone sets. 

 

yeah, probably that too. :u

[-Windrider-]

Okay, I had to delete and edit a couple posts here that were either outright inappropriate or otherwise suggestive (and just unnecessary).

If you haven't seen my post on the other page, you have now, so consider this a last warning.

[ShadowBionics]

... Dang, a lot of things being said are things I never thought I'd see too often on here. Okay, well moving away from all that now...

 

There have been some successfully done female-looking sets in the past. I know some have mentioned Kiina who's an example that does look feminine as well as having a custom torso compared to previous female character sets. I know people harp on Mistika Gali and any incarnation of Toa Hahli for being masculine-looking, and I can sort of see to an extent what the problem is, especially with Gali. Then again, not many people were satisfied with the Phantoka/Mistika Toa to begin with because of how much they did not look like their previous selves.

 

Another example that I thought looked fine was the Breakout version of Breez. Not sure if anyone has mentioned her, but before I'm torn to bits, hear me out a little bit. Yes, she is pretty tall and yes she does have massive shoulder pads and armor. But then again I could also describe Samus Aran and her Varia suit with those words. Compared to some of the other male characters, I thought Breez did fine as a feminine-looking set. One thing I liked was the use of the old HF hero feet, compared to the much larger more current HF feet used on the male characters. Granted, those might not fit the look and feel of the new Bionicle, but for what it was I thought it was a good idea. And then they messed that up with the Brain Attack version of her... Granted, still looking sort of feminine, I think they took some of that away. Then again, I didn't really like the Brain Attack sets too much, so I might be biased.

 

There are ways to make characters look feminine without going so much overboard, it is just important to know how to go about it. Someone already described the different between a male body frame and a female body frame, and so likewise if someone took that into consideration you could logically make a character look like a girl without giving her "manly" body as some people might say for Mistika Gali. Kiina succeeded because compared to say Ackar or Vastus, she does have a more slender build with her hips and shoulders set up in such a way she looks female. Mistika Gali kind of failed because of her bulky limbs and wide body and shoulders in relation to her hips. In fact she practically shared the same design as Mistika Tahu's design, with some exceptions to vary between the two. 

 

So in other words, to make a set look feminine, you don't need to give them over exaggerated proportions or features. It'd just take some considering of the difference between a male body frame and female body frame and how well you could translate it to a building set. Some of the people here have pulled that off nicely, at least based off those whose comments and pictures I've looked at. So it is very much possible.

Edited October 20, 2014 by ShadowBionics

[Banana Gunz]

Wow, I'm actually pleasantly surprised that my little piece of gold wasn't taken down. Hohoho.

 

But anyway I very much agree with what Shadow Bionics said.

 

All in all, I do believe some more physical feminizing would be fine. Splitting the torso beam into two parts could be a good step towards making torsos more customize-able, so I feel that could work to give female characters slightly more feminine shaped bodies. I take an anatomy class at school where we actually draw real naked models (professionally of course) and I have noticed the differences between male and female body structure pointed out in this topic. You don't need to add breasts (or even Bionic booty) to make it feminine. Set-wise, it shouldn't make a huge difference so your parts and imagination can be free to make the set whatever you want it to be. 

 

The slight arrangements on Gali's new set work nicely to make her more feminine looking. It does it well without being too much, and all the same allows for easy changes so that the set can have a nice variety of proportions (CCBS is great that way).

 

I remember good ol' 2001 where the largest changes to make character feminine was to make the shoulders smaller (which is actually a very nice change that would've made Gali stand out as a girl even more had Lewa and Kopaka not had the same features) and change a chest piece. Huh.

[Akavakaku]

"Noobs," what a great term. I'm stealing it. See also: "Brahkshi."

[Zidonaro]

I hardly make any MOCs, but when I write my female characters, I try to give them at least what I consider to be a feminine name. I mean, they're robots so they shouldn't have any female or male traits, so I'm fine with female sets not having any distinguishable parts and pieces like the new Gali. That said, I don't hate MOCs with breasts and other stuff, but I think MOCers should focus on other things.

 

Basically, simply saying "She" in the character's bio is enough for me, even if she indeed looks like a male.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Zidonaro

[Regitnui]

I dislike the idea of building anything more obvious than slight curves.onto a feminine MoC because:

 

A) They are wearing armour. Having cleavage in armour is just asking for someone to break your chest in two.

 

B) Toa aren't mammals. They don't need breasts physiologically, as they do not reproduce in that way.

 

C) Gender in and of itself is only a mental construct in the MU. Being built one way or the other makes no difference to them, beyond being built well or poorly.

[Pohatu: Uniter of Stone]

I dislike the idea of building anything more obvious than slight curves.onto a feminine MoC because:

 

A) They are wearing armour. Having cleavage in armour is just asking for someone to break your chest in two.

 

B) Toa aren't mammals. They don't need breasts physiologically, as they do not reproduce in that way.

 

C) Gender in and of itself is only a mental construct in the MU. Being built one way or the other makes no difference to them, beyond being built well or poorly.

Thank you! I am glad to see someone else thinks a lot like me. I once tried to make a female MOC with nuva boobs, and it lasted about a week.

[Ragnar Lothbrok]

 

 

I think that LEGO try to keep the male and female build similar most times to leave it to the imagination of the buyer.

Really? I thought that they did that to keep the continuity with the clone sets. 

 

yeah, probably that too. :u

 

 

True, but as they were clones, they could pick any of the 6 to be female in the story, whilst at home, you could say to yourself Lewa was female. Headcanon, isn't it?

 

Unfortunately we ended up with blue being the female colour, but the idea of not overly feminizing sets means the Story Team could have 1 female Toa in 2015 and 3 female Toa in 2016 without worrying about set detail.

[Toa Green Ninja]

Okay, I had to delete and edit a couple posts here that were either outright inappropriate or otherwise suggestive (and just unnecessary).

If you haven't seen my post on the other page, you have now, so consider this a last warning.

Really? I didn't see anything that bad?

 

And like I said, I added your quote to the main post, so anyone ignoring it and going overboard with objectification is just ridiculous. I mean, I know we are all thinking things, but don't say them!

[Reznas]

 

Okay, I had to delete and edit a couple posts here that were either outright inappropriate or otherwise suggestive (and just unnecessary).

If you haven't seen my post on the other page, you have now, so consider this a last warning.

Really? I didn't see anything that bad?

 

Because he deleted the bad ones before most people could see them.

 

-Rez

[ChooChoo14]

The main thing I think is important is the proportions of the hips to the shoulders, making sure they're equal and that the entire body is slightly smaller than their male counterpart

 

No need for boobs or butts or anything, if you stood a man in a suit of armor next to a woman in a suit of armor the only difference would be the difference in shoulder-hip proportions and size

[Akavakaku]

I'm not sure hips as wide as the shoulders is entirely warranted for female characters in constraction, since the male characters have shoulders of ridiculous width compared to their hips. By comparison, females still should have wide shoulders, just not as wide.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

I'm not sure hips as wide as the shoulders is entirely warranted for female characters in constraction, since the male characters have shoulders of ridiculous width compared to their hips. By comparison, females still should have wide shoulders, just not as wide.

.

nah, more logical solution, hips wider than shoulders, obviously. :b

 

^(i kid, the shoulders should still be a little wider on average, since most toa use upper body more than lower body. i think.)

[believe victims]

One of the reasons most constraction figures have shoulders wider than hips regardless of gender is to keep a wide range of motion for the arms, I think. If the shoulders are the same width as the hips, they can no longer hand perpendicular to the body.

[Noxryn]

you're all well aware women can have (and in a lot of cases do have) broad shoulders, right

 

and can have slim hips, can be tall, can be muscular and don't all have to have small shoulders, wide hips and a petite stature

 

like you're all aware of these facts, yes?

 

because if so why is everyone so fixated on female warrior constraction sets having small shoulders, wide hips, appearing petite and sleek when none of those things are inherently feminine and women come in all shapes, sizes and variations and not this specific set of traits that's being purported as the ideal of femininity in this thread.

[Click]

you're all well aware women can have (and in a lot of cases do have) broad shoulders, right

 

and can have slim hips, can be tall, can be muscular and don't all have to have small shoulders, wide hips and a petite stature

 

like you're all aware of these facts, yes?

 

because if so why is everyone so fixated on female warrior constraction sets having small shoulders, wide hips, appearing petite and sleek when none of those things are inherently feminine and women come in all shapes, sizes and variations and not this specific set of traits that's being purported as the ideal of femininity in this thread.

 

One possible reason is that many picture Toa as having the "Heroic" or "Ideal" proportions. The men are tall, broad shouldered, and well muscled, while women have longer legs, smaller shoulders, and an hourglass figure. It wouldn't make as much sense for robotic warriors to have stocky or even fat figures. I have seen MOCs and art that are a bit stouter though.

[Pomegranate]

you're all well aware women can have (and in a lot of cases do have) broad shoulders, right

 

and can have slim hips, can be tall, can be muscular and don't all have to have small shoulders, wide hips and a petite stature

 

like you're all aware of these facts, yes?

 

because if so why is everyone so fixated on female warrior constraction sets having small shoulders, wide hips, appearing petite and sleek when none of those things are inherently feminine and women come in all shapes, sizes and variations and not this specific set of traits that's being purported as the ideal of femininity in this thread.

It's just so that everyone everywhere can look at a particular set and go "Oh that one's probably not a dude". That's why I really don't think this thread is relevant to MOCing, 'cause when you introduce a character you'd usually mention their gender, and that should be enough.

[Zidonaro]

One possible reason is that many picture Toa as having the "Heroic" or "Ideal" proportions. The men are tall, broad shouldered, and well muscled, while women have longer legs, smaller shoulders, and an hourglass figure.

 

This is the thing that NEEDS to change the most.