Protodermis

[bonesiii]

first off, i've seen several points in this topic refer to protodermis as "having instructions" or otherwise being programmable, and i'm seeing it being taken as fact

First, remember that Bionicle was intentionally designed to take work to understand. It sounds like what you're saying is you're unfamiliar with where that comes from, and are trying to imply that's a problem. But it's okay not to know where it came from, and that it would take work to find it is consistent with the idea of Bionicle. Anyways, you may be mixing up some theory with fact here, but we do know the Matoran programming language can be used to define protodermic powers; that was the theory Swert and I came up with for the Sayger mask we proposed Conjuring as the power for, and Greg canonized it based on that reasoning. He also added another downside that slight errors in the instructions could cause mental harm for the person speaking the instructions.

 

We also know of course that specific powers other than that have rules and limitations.

 

Liquid Protodermis: The only major difference from the "water" it immitates is the silvery color

Not quite -- it can also be purified to get pure protodermis which can use powers. Normal water can't do that. Its relationship with transformations to molten and solid also seem to be able to be somewhat different. Of course, overall it does imitate it, just like video game water imitates water (but by virtue of being virtual... sorry for the pun lol... can also behave differently if the programmers want).

 

so, basically, aside from a few small issues (Energized to non-energized conversion never described, Liquid proto oddly being the one that is melted down?) I don't see any flaws with the protodermis setup, and heck, i can let those things pass because it's kinda neat the way liquid proto works, even if it's a bit odd.

 

Notice, though, that this shows the key here -- you personally let those things go because in your personal tastes they work. Somebody else with different tastes might not. The real problem is the idea that something becomes "not okay" just because it doesn't fit a person's tastes. LEGO can't both do one and the other (at least not for the same canon... I actually suspect they probably will not go with protodermis this time in the reboot), so people who dislike something should recognize that it's okay to do them anyways, as it will please those who do like them. Right?

 

the point i've been trying to make here all along isn't that proto is inherantly wrong or off. but more of that Organic proto is off compared to its other forms, by being a broader catagory

That doesn't work, because organic chemistry in real life is crazy-broad too. Think about it -- you have a small set (relatively) of atomic elements. The number of possible molecules of those must necessarily be broader! That's how multiplication works (at least when you're allowed to add more and more number of ingredients, so even A + B with only two possible ingredients can still get A + B + A + A + A and so forth).

 

And since organic chemistry, at least in real life, has vast numbers of molecules, often very complex, the category of organic chemistry should be HUGE by comparison!

 

Now, we don't know how organic protodermis works; we don't know if it's a single protodermis molecule with dormant biology sections switched on (as I have theorized before based on the name; proto-dermis; pre-flesh; proto-alive), we don't know if one organic cell is made up of multiple protodermis molecules (and now we don't even know anymore if it's a molecule anyways ). But our lack of knowing that is okay; if anything that means there's MORE options for how it can be plausible. You can't validly argue from a lack of knowing how something works to proof that it doesn't work; that's the fallacy of arguing from silence or ignorance (I mean that not as an insult, that's just the name for the fallacy ).

 

Under my upcoming theory, which I think all things considered is probably the best one (some details I don't mind 'spoiling' here out of context), organic protodermis could be "one protodermis molecule is one cell equivalent", or "one cell equivalent is built out of multiple protodermis molecules." No reason it even has to be one or the other -- if for one type of life the simpler way is sufficient, it can use that, and for another, if there's no way to do it with one molecule per cell (which may be much more likely), then cells could be built with many molecules of various sub-types. Why not?

 

FTR, Greg has, m'believe, recently also given an "I don't know" answer to this question, so pretty sure both are still valid canonically.

 

Even if he were to pick one or the other, that could just mean that the protodermis molecule (or whatever it is) is sufficiently complex or simple enough to fit that scenario. There's no reason to imagine some kind of problem here.

 

And if your only reason for doing that is only to try to defend a personal taste that makes you simply not like it... you don't need to try. Your taste is already valid because preferences are considered to be outside the scope of logic anyway. It's enough to just say you don't like it, not your cup of tea, and leave it at that. Although understanding more how it makes sense might help you enjoy it more which would be good as it's entertainment.

 

imitating a form detached from all its other forms with no reason to do so.

Sorry but this is also argument from ignorance (again, no insult meant; I don't like that label... call it argument from lack of awareness if you like). You might not know a reason, but that doesn't prove there isn't one or that we couldn't think of one if we try.

 

It seems to me that it would be much easier for the Great Beings to program artificial life with an artificial molecule they themselves designed than to try to do it the way real-world biology does, which is hopelessly complicated and we're still only really scratching the surface of how to design it ourselves. It's more like programming virtual creatures in a game or something, which certainly doesn't need to use an exact replication of real-world organic chemistry!

 

And since you agree that it's okay for protodermis to have all those different non-organic types, at the very least it seems to me you would have to accept that cells could be made out of those materials. (Again, we don't know that that's how protodermis cells work, but that option at least would make sense. If not, why not have sufficient space for instructions to imitate behavior of cells, under the cyber-clay theory?)

 

Also, why have beings made of something different from their environment? Even though some like Matoran do absorb life energy, what about Rahi that eat plants? It seems overcomplicated to have them not be able to "be what they eat."

 

and also alienating all earth-like organic materials, like trees or meat.

I don't know what you mean here, so not sure what to say.

 

Protodermis isn't analogous with all of matter, because on spherus magna, it existed alongside well-known matter

Conclusion doesn't follow from premise. Analogies normally talk about things that exist alongside the things being analogized. That's part of the point of them after all; to show that you can't argue that because something has a feature (like having gobs and gobs of sub-types), it can't exist (since the analogy talks about something you know exists). It doesn't even seem coherent, since even if it didn't happen to exist alongside normal matter in Bionicle, we would still be arguing for the plausible existence of both, somewhere (fictionally but yeah ).

 

And by the same logic, virtual matter could not exist in the same universe as real matter. But it does. Or organic matter that imitates things like rocks (hard wood), water (various biological liquids), fire (biological combustibles), etc. shouldn't coexist but they do.

 

sorry, sorry. this is becoming a rambling, blah. I'm not very good at composing long points like this, but if you wanted me to state, clear and forward, what i think of Protodermis and where my problems lie, there it is. :t

 No, that wasn't that rambling at all IMO. That's so far the clearest and best phrased argument I've seen from you. Problem is the reasoning still doesn't work. But that's okay -- peeps make mistakes. Hopefully my answer can help clear some things up for you. =)

 

tldr; I have no qualms with proto being more than "special stuff that is mined" it's more a qualm with the misconception its a broader catagory than it set itself up to be. :0

First, I never thought you did have that problem; I've said that I have a problem with it because it's cliche. Not a "stories can't do it" problem, but a "stories that find a way to be non-cliche are better as far as that goes" problem.

 

Second, I'm not sure what you mean about this "misconception." My only guess is that you might not realize that for example, protodermic stone has many different types within it. But you seemed to show that you're aware this sort of thing isn't the case with your mention of a type of metal, proto-steel. So not sure what else you could mean.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

 

First, remember that Bionicle was intentionally designed to take work to understand. It sounds like what you're saying is you're unfamiliar with where that comes from, and are trying to imply that's a problem. But it's okay not to know where it came from, and that it would take work to find it is consistent with the idea of Bionicle. Anyways, you may be mixing up some theory with fact here, but we do know the Matoran programming language can be used to define protodermic powers; that was the theory Swert and I came up with for the Sayger mask we proposed Conjuring as the power for, and Greg canonized it based on that reasoning. He also added another downside that slight errors in the instructions could cause mental harm for the person speaking the instructions.

 

We also know of course that specific powers other than that have rules and limitations.

 

 

what? what?

 

how long has there been a matoran programming language? when was there a mask of conjuring? what does that have to do with protodermis? what?

 

 

Liquid Protodermis: The only major difference from the "water" it immitates is the silvery color

Not quite -- it can also be purified to get pure protodermis which can use powers. Normal water can't do that. Its relationship with transformations to molten and solid also seem to be able to be somewhat different. Of course, overall it does imitate it, just like video game water imitates water (but by virtue of being virtual... sorry for the pun lol... can also behave differently if the programmers want).

 

uhm, i think it's about time i addressed your problematic comparison to video game programming, since. y'know. protodermis is a tangible object in-universe, not just a simulated image of water for a simulated intangible world. no offense. :0

 

That doesn't work, because organic chemistry in real life is crazy-broad too. Think about it -- you have a small set (relatively) of atomic elements. The number of possible molecules of those must necessarily be broader! That's how multiplication works (at least when you're allowed to add more and more number of ingredients, so even A + B with only two possible ingredients can still get A + B + A + A + A and so forth).

 

And since organic chemistry, at least in real life, has vast numbers of molecules, often very complex, the category of organic chemistry should be HUGE by comparison!

 

Now, we don't know how organic protodermis works; we don't know if it's a single protodermis molecule with dormant biology sections switched on (as I have theorized before based on the name; proto-dermis; pre-flesh; proto-alive), we don't know if one organic cell is made up of multiple protodermis molecules (and now we don't even know anymore if it's a molecule anyways ). But our lack of knowing that is okay; if anything that means there's MORE options for how it can be plausible. You can't validly argue from a lack of knowing how something works to proof that it doesn't work; that's the fallacy of arguing from silence or ignorance (I mean that not as an insult, that's just the name for the fallacy ).

 

Under my upcoming theory, which I think all things considered is probably the best one (some details I don't mind 'spoiling' here out of context), organic protodermis could be "one protodermis molecule is one cell equivalent", or "one cell equivalent is built out of multiple protodermis molecules." No reason it even has to be one or the other -- if for one type of life the simpler way is sufficient, it can use that, and for another, if there's no way to do it with one molecule per cell (which may be much more likely), then cells could be built with many molecules of various sub-types. Why not?

 

FTR, Greg has, m'believe, recently also given an "I don't know" answer to this question, so pretty sure both are still valid canonically.

 

Even if he were to pick one or the other, that could just mean that the protodermis molecule (or whatever it is) is sufficiently complex or simple enough to fit that scenario. There's no reason to imagine some kind of problem here.

 

And if your only reason for doing that is only to try to defend a personal taste that makes you simply not like it... you don't need to try. Your taste is already valid because preferences are considered to be outside the scope of logic anyway. It's enough to just say you don't like it, not your cup of tea, and leave it at that. Although understanding more how it makes sense might help you enjoy it more which would be good as it's entertainment.

 

 

but Protodermis is, as far as we can tell, an atomic element, rahter than a molecular chemical. and either way, it would be much too simple to substitute life. that was my point, life requires a lot more chemicals involved than, say, a metal or a rock would.

 

 

It seems to me that it would be much easier for the Great Beings to program artificial life with an artificial molecule they themselves designed than to try to do it the way real-world biology does, which is hopelessly complicated and we're still only really scratching the surface of how to design it ourselves. It's more like programming virtual creatures in a game or something, which certainly doesn't need to use an exact replication of real-world organic chemistry!

 

And since you agree that it's okay for protodermis to have all those different non-organic types, at the very least it seems to me you would have to accept that cells could be made out of those materials. (Again, we don't know that that's how protodermis cells work, but that option at least would make sense. If not, why not have sufficient space for instructions to imitate behavior of cells, under the cyber-clay theory?)

 

ERROR! the GBs did NOT create the protodermis atom/molecule, if we all might recall, it came out of the core of their planet and they harvested it! its a naturally occurring substance, not a machine!

 

(and for the latter point, yes, protodermis could be a component of organic life, but if so, the cells wouldn't be called protodermis just because they have some in them., and i certainly wouldn't go around calling the tissue itself protodermis. that's needlessly contradictory and/or confusing!)

 

 

And by the same logic, virtual matter could not exist in the same universe as real matter. But it does. Or organic matter that imitates things like rocks (hard wood), water (various biological liquids), fire (biological combustibles), etc. shouldn't coexist but they do.

 

Virtual matter doesn't exist, period. its a simulation of matter on an intangible plane, is that really a difficult thing to understand? :0

 

(and i never once accused wood of imitating rock, or blood/bile of imitating water. what? :t )

 

I don't get your argument, not because i'm stuck in my opinion, but because you keep adding more to it, without ever actually getting your point across,

i mean no offense, but your points are almost more confusing than the topic of protodermis was originally. s:

[bonesiii]

what? what?

 

how long has there been a matoran programming language? when was there a mask of conjuring? what does that have to do with protodermis? what?

It sounds like what you're saying is you may be fairly new to Bionicle? I didn't realize that. If that's so, that's okay, but remember that the things that were established were done over a span of years, so fans had time back then to get these things gradually. If you're coming at such a complex worldbuilding story later and trying to get it all quickly in hindsight, it's unlikely it will be so easy. Take it slow and read up. I don't think we need to inform you of everything that was established first before we try to have a conversation about it; you can do that on your own time. (Again no offense... just advice that should help. )

 

uhm, i think it's about time i addressed your problematic comparison to video game programming, since. y'know. protodermis is a tangible object in-universe, not just a simulated image of water for a simulated intangible world

This is again a mis-handling of what analogies are for, in this case by pointing out that there are differences between the analogy and the thing being analogized, but nobody who uses an analogy (logically anyways) thinks otherwise. This one also amounts to circular reasoning; that because a physical equivalent of virtual materials (artificial substance imitating real materials) doesn't exist, it can't exist. This isn't how you address an analogy if you want to show that it doesn't work, since the argument the analogy is debunking is that "something can't exist if it imitates a full or huge range of types of real matter".

 

The point is that protodermis is LIKE virtual matter in that it can exist (within the virtual world...), and can have a lot of different types, and that people accept that virtual matter can exist, since they observe it. Virtual matter demonstrates the principle that there are other ways to mimic the behavior of real-world materials besides how matter does it. So the argument that there can't be any other way is falsified. Since we know of one, why not others besides?

 

We even understand in principle how to do it as I mentioned before; real-world matter makes that effects by generating energy fields in specific ways and arrangements. If something else could generate those same fields but in a different, fictional way, it could imitate any other material so long as it had the "instructions" for the field exactly right.

 

Prior to the invention of computers, people could have made arguments that virtual matter is impossible simply because they didn't know how to do it. But now we know they would have been wrong. This illustrates why it's unreasonable to assume that protodermis couldn't do all the things it does either just because we don't know how.

 

Make sense?

 

but Protodermis is, as far as we can tell, an atomic element

I've already answered this. See previous posts, and posts in the previous topic. Short answer (as repetition can help learning ) -- we cannot assume that -- and the evidence is strongly against it, as atomic elements can't likely do what it does -- but even if Greg does ever go that route, it's hardly the first fiction to use it, as illogical as it is for the others too... or as illogical as it seems (we can't even rule out that a sufficiently advanced atomic element could do that stuff!). And given that Greg once called it a molecule, and that he has at times implied that we can ignore or take with a lot of salt his more recent forgetcons, methinks it's still the most reasonable theory.

 

rahter than a molecular chemical. and either way, it would be much too simple to substitute life.

There's absolutely no reason to assume that. See my previous reply (I'm guessing that as you typed this part you hadn't yet read on... that's okay but hopefully you get that now ). This seems to be a problem with interpreting fiction that I've seen once or twice before, where a fan assumes a premise that would create a problem, without confirmation, and compares it with the things that are actually confirmed, and takes that as evidence of a contradiction. Doesn't it make much more sense to look at the things that are confirmed alone and take them as evidence of the more reasonable alternative? (In this case, that it would be complex enough.)

 

Also, this is kinda hilarious to me, having actually programmed some "artificial life" in a computer game. It's actually not that hard at all to imitate basic behaviors. More complex than a simple typical real-world atom or chemical, sure, but nobody said protodermis is those things.

 

ERROR! the GBs did NOT create the protodermis atom/molecule, if we all might recall, it came out of the core of their planet and they harvested it! its a naturally occurring substance, not a machine!

Every type of protodermis other than EP was artificial and made by them (based on their studies of EP). I was assuming everybody reading my post already knew that (it's mentioned in early chapters of my retelling BTW), so would know what I meant. I guess not. (But that's okay... just please stop assuming that your lack of knowledge of what's canon means that the rest of us are wrong when we mention common knowledge about the canon in passing, yeah?)

 

Virtual matter doesn't exist, period.

Yes it does, as virtual matter. Or rather, it exists within the virtual world. But that's beside the point, as nobody was saying virtual matter exists in the physical sense as matter and protodermis do in Bionicle. Basically, protodermis may be a combination of physical matter, and the way that virtual matter can have programmed physics. This is how you be original in fiction -- you take things that do exist separately in some way, and recombine them as ingredients for some new combination. That's imagination -- to argue that you can't do that because that combination doesn't (yet) exist in real life is simply to say we can't imagine new things.

 

If people thought that way, humanity never would have embraced new inventions, for example. Things that don't yet exist CAN be imagined, especially by mixing different things in new ways.

 

(Actually, Einstein showed that physical matter is really just coded energy anyways. A virtual world that entirely duplicates this down to the quantum "bit" is quite possible... just way beyond our tech right now. )

 

Anyways, protodermis doesn't exist in that sense anyways -- both virtual matter in a video game AND protodermis are fictional! So moot point...

Edited October 21, 2014 by bonesiii

[Regitnui]

Rahkshi Lalonde, reading over the BS01 article again, I'd say you actually got that all correct. So protodermis is a substance that can exist 'naturally' in three forms: Solid, Liquid and Organic, all of which are present in the raw material of Energized Protodermis. Energized protodermis behaves as a liquid most of the time, but the EP Entity the Metru faced show that it can solidify and imitate organic tissue in large quantities. The Great Beings just stabilized it before building the MU from the inert forms of EP.

 

Organic protodermis is just ordinary Solid protodermis arranged in such a way as to function like organic tissue, like normal inert matter arranged in a certain way becomes organic tissue. So, nothing really supernatural or extraordinary about that. Perhaps if the GB left the MU running for a few millennia, protodermis-based life would have evolved on it's own. No guarantees that 'natural' protodermis life would have worked as well as the engineered lifeforms called Matoran, though.

 

Developing from that, perhaps that's how the GB created the Krana and Matoran (the first engineered protodermic lifeforms). The zyglak were a mistake; so maybe they were a 'natural' protodermis lifeform, and the GB manipulated the same process that gave rise to them to make Matoran, specifically Takua. I'm guessing Krana were made first, since 'face-shaped slug' is a simpler lifeform than 'miniature humanoid engineering biomech'.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Regitnui

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

what? what?

 

Even if the GBs recreated Protodermis from their studies of energized protodermis, that still wouldn't make it any more or less like a mechanical device. i'm confused about this reasoning, and the assumption i should read your retelling just to get an understanding of what canon protodermis is like?

 

(another flawed point, why do you keep reffering to your theories and retelling when i'm trying to talk protodermis' canon physical portrayal? s: )

 

 

Virtual matter doesn't exist, period.

Yes it does, as virtual matter. Or rather, it exists within the virtual world. But that's beside the point, as nobody was saying virtual matter exists in the physical sense as matter and protodermis do in Bionicle. Basically, protodermis may be a combination of physical matter, and the way that virtual matter can have programmed physics. 

 

you know darn well i meant physical-plane-tangible-object level existance, and that virtual matter is nothing but code made to imitate matter to the optical lobe. :/

 

to elaborate: virtual rock. you can manipulate it via a console, the computer it is in. that's what programming is. it only aplpies to the virtual plane, (unless used to guide a robot. however the robot is still limited by its non-alterable physical body, so the programming is limited compared to the virtual rock.)

 

Real rock, physical rock. cannot be programmed, lacks a console. only way to alter real rock is to hit it with a very heavy instrument, (or superheat/superfreeze it.)

 

protodermis falls into the latter section, it is an unprogrammable, physical, and very much real rock. (or crystal, or fluid, or lava, or glass, or metal, etc...)

 

It sounds like what you're saying is you may be fairly new to Bionicle? I didn't realize that. If that's so, that's okay, but remember that the things that were established were done over a span of years, so fans had time back then to get these things gradually. If you're coming at such a complex worldbuilding story later and trying to get it all quickly in hindsight, it's unlikely it will be so easy. Take it slow and read up. I don't think we need to inform you of everything that was established first before we try to have a conversation about it; you can do that on your own time. (Again no offense... just advice that should help. )

 

Nice, try. bucko. i joined Bionicle in 2004. anything i hadn't heard of would have been something that the general bionicle fan public would also have been unaware of, and thus. problematically obscure. :/

 

EDIT:

 

 

Reading over the BS01 article again, I'd say you actually got that all correct. So protodermis is a substance that can exist 'naturally' in three forms: Solid, Liquid abs Organic, all of which are present in the raw material of Energized Protodermis. Energized protodermis behaves as a liquid most of the time, but the EP Entity the Metru faced show that it can solidify and imitate organic tissue in large quantities. The Great Beings just stabilized it before building the MU from the inert forms of EP.

Organic protodermis is just ordinary Solid protodermis arranged in such a way as to function like organic tissue, like normal inert matter arranged in a certain way becomes organic tissue. So, nothing really supernatural or extraordinary about that. Perhaps if the GB left the MU running for a few millennia, protodermis-based life would have evolved on it's own. No guarantees that 'natural' protodermis life would have worked as well as the engineered lifeforms called Matoran, though.

Developing from that, perhaps that's how the GB created the Krana and Matoran (the first engineered protodermic lifeforms). The zyglak were a mistake; so maybe they were a 'natural' protodermis lifeform, and the GB manipulated the same process that gave rise to them to make Matoran, specifically Takua. I'm guessing Krana were made first, since 'face-shaped slug' is a simpler lifeform than 'miniature humanoid engineering biomech'.

 

somehow, yes. you describe this well and it all kinda flows nicely. (it's actually odd tho, 'cause that would mean matoran and rahi and stuff would actually have to be more rudimentary and simple of life forms than humans or plants. an interesting take for sci-fi beings? o: )

 

I mean, if i were the GBs i wouldn't have called my protodermis-based cell structure protodermis too, but i did always guess they weren't as intellegent as their creative abilities made them out to be. :b

Edited October 21, 2014 by Rahkshi Lalonde

[Regitnui]

Intelligent, they were. They weren't serious scientists though, at least not from their canon portrayals. More like basement inventors that just happened to have a psychic dream monster drive them slightly nuts and then discover the atomic/molecular equivalent of Lego.

[bonesiii]

Reg:
 

Energized protodermis behaves as a liquid most of the time, but the EP Entity the Metru faced show that it can solidify and imitate organic tissue in large quantities.

I always assumed that was just holding the liquid up as if with an invisible container or forcefield, rather than solidifying it, but I wouldn't rule it out.


RL:
 

(and i never once accused wood of imitating rock, or blood/bile of imitating water. what? :t )

Missed this part of your post earlier... that's part of the point. If you'd never heard of wood, lived in a prescientific age, and somebody told you that in a fictional world, hard rock could be imitated to an extent with hard biological matter growing from the ground, apparently your approach of reasoning should make you say that's bad, since you wouldn't understand how it could do it, or it would be too complex or whatever. But you don't do that, which seems to me to show an inconsistency in your reasoning; that you accept that both wood plus rock can exist only because you observe wood. But wood doesn't have to exist; most of the universe lacks it after all. And here it is, coexisting with rock!

So by the same reasoning, it shouldn't be a problem for organic protodermis to exist alongside normal matter that it imitates either, especially since it would be easier for the Great Beings to program it to make whatever kinds of life they wanted, versus the crazy complexity of normal biology (assuming their natural biology is anything like ours ).

 

So, your lack of complaint about wood and rock coexisting is actually a problem for you. By your own logic, it seems you should.
 

I don't get your argument, not because i'm stuck in my opinion, but because you keep adding more to it, without ever actually getting your point across,

Well, no offense, but it seems like you keep adding more and more to your attempts to argue against it, none of which seems to make sense. I don't see why the basic idea is hard to understand at all, but if you don't want to understand it and keep trying to come up with ways to argue around the simple answers I gave at first, obviously I'm going to have to explain more things to you to keep answering your other questions. How, then, can you complain about that, when you're the one choosing to continue this by trying to come up with more and more problems?

It's fine for you to ask more questions and explore it further if you're confused, but why make it sound like it's bad if somebody answers you?

Honestly I'm not convinced you're not getting it. I'm speaking plain English here, and I've never seen anybody have this much trouble with it over the years. But if you really aren't, that's okay, just politely ask for clarification and listen to the answers fairly. Yeah?
 

Even if the GBs recreated Protodermis from their studies of energized protodermis, that still wouldn't make it any more or less like a mechanical device.

Well, I wouldn't assume that (they might have made it more controllable than the natural version; wouldn't that make sense?), but even if so, that says nothing about how much like one the natural version was.
 

i'm confused about this reasoning

That's okay, but at this point, after two whole topics of explaining it in as many clear ways as possible, I have to wonder -- is this because you want, on some level, to be confused so that you don't have to admit that it works? Again, please understand no offense is intended here, but there is a chance that somebody could do that, and if that is what's going on here, perhaps it needs to be brought up. Are you really trying to understand? Or are you trying to grasp at straws to find problems that aren't really there to defend a dislike of it, that doesn't really need defense anyways?

Plus, if you're still saying you're confused because you don't understand how protodermis can have all those types including organic, the core point is that you don't have to understand how. It's fiction and LEGO never intended you to know how it works (as Greg has implied when he pointed out that nobody is making protodermis ).
 

the assumption i should read your retelling just to get an understanding of what canon protodermis is like?

I brought that up as proof that I already knew the part that you mentioned. (That there was natural EP in the core.)
 

(another flawed point, why do you keep reffering to your theories and retelling when i'm trying to talk protodermis' canon physical portrayal? s: )

In the previous topic, as I said, I intentionally avoided theories, because I was just trying to show that you don't need to have any understanding of how it might be plausible. But this topic is about one theory, and you have several times brought up arguments that theories (not just mine, there's been a lot over the years) can help answer (as possible answers anyways, so far as we know, which show that parts of it could be plausible). When you're saying that a canon portrayal can't work, that is obviously a case where theories that show how it can work are relevant.
 

you know darn well i meant physical-plane-tangible-object level existance

Yes... and you know I knew that. Why are you even going there?

Again, RL, please resist the temptation to try to create a fight (about this or anything). Not only is that against our rules (flaming, trolling, and the rules for respect), but it's also entirely missing the point of entertainment. As I've said before, to me if you don't like the more tech-ish subjects of Bionicle, that's cool, but then why not just stay away from topics where people want to enjoy thinking about them? You can just headcanon it out, let others have "their cup of tea", and live and let live. Right?


Actually, I wonder if the reason for this sudden push against protodermis has to do with the reboot. The timing is probably not a coincidence. Are you perhaps worried that if you don't defend a taste against how proto was done, LEGO will use it again for the reboot? For whatever it's worth, that's not the purpose of my answers. Protodermis made sense, but it had its time, and my own reasoning (about having more variety of options for fiction, so people with different tastes can have something for them) would actually argue against re-using it.

So if that's what's motivating this, don't worry, I'm on your side there. Just not for the same reason. (My taste would make me probably like it better if they did use it again... but I can handle LEGO doing things that aren't aimed at my taste-group. )

 

 

virtual matter is nothing but code made to imitate matter

And before we invented it, somebody could use your exact same arguments against the idea of it. So shouldn't we learn from that lesson and realize we can't assume either that physical imitations of matter are impossible either?

 

How about the idea of holodecks in Star Trek? Do you call that impossible? That is a step up from the real-world idea of virtual matter. It's well accepted in sci-fi, and such "solid illusions" are common even to fantasy. Why not a "solid illusion" that happens to have actual mass?

 

 

Real rock, physical rock. cannot be programmed, lacks a console. only way to alter real rock is to hit it with a very heavy instrument, (or superheat/superfreeze it.)

 

protodermis falls into the latter section

No, because it's not normal matter ('real') rock. It falls into a third category that has traits of one and the other mixed. Seems simple to me.

 

Also, a nitpick, we don't know that GBs need a console to make it. If it's an advanced molecule, they might build the molecule directly. Conjuring does act like a console with a part of the power that listens to the programming language and converts it into whatever code controls powers. Mata Nui's processors presumably work roughly the same way (and themselves are a console of sorts by the way for his powers over his interior world). But there's no real need for a bunch of consoles around; they just had to build it in such a way as to have the different types, and respond to simple ways to alter them, like the rapid heating/cooling of protowater to purify it or elemental powers making protostone, etc.

 

Nice, try. bucko. i joined Bionicle in 2004. anything i hadn't heard of would have been something that the general bionicle fan public would also have been unaware of, and thus. problematically obscure. :/

I did suspect so (BTW, please tone down the attitude... I've warned you about this already). But again, Bionicle is meant to take work to understand. The "obscure" canon facts I've mentioned were given by Greg in answer to fan questions. The argument that that's a problem because the average casual fan won't know them is itself problematic as that implies a fiction can't reward its more curious fans for taking the time and effort to explore their curiosity.

 

If you have a taste not to like fiction that encourages its fans to work to understand it, that's okay, but is that necessarily better?

 

That kind of fiction can challenge the mind and help it stay sharp to handle confusing/complex issues in real life. Fiction that keeps everything simple has its advantages too, but you'll see people complaining about that too! If you're tired from hard work or something, some mindless entertainment can be a good release. But that doesn't mean that's the ONLY note that fiction can sing.

 

 

And anyways, everything I mentioned that you would call "obscure" only needed brought up as evidence against arguments you were using which themselves are highly rare, so arguably obscure too. I started out pointing out that you don't need to understand all those things to simply accept that a fictional substance could work in ways unlike real-world stuff. For most fans that seems to be enough. So, if you're going to ask for more details, it doesn't make sense to complain when you get them. You didn't have to ask.

And, outta time for now, sorry... maybe more later...

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

If you'd never heard of wood, lived in a prescientific age, and somebody told you that in a fictional world, hard rock could be imitated to an extent with hard biological matter growing from the ground, apparently your approach of reasoning should make you say that's bad, since you wouldn't understand how it could do it, or it would be too complex or whatever. But you don't do that, which seems to me to show an inconsistency in your reasoning; that you accept that both wood plus rock can exist only because you observe wood. But wood doesn't have to exist; most of the universe lacks it after all. And here it is, coexisting with rock!

 

:0

 

 

 

...anyway, if i came across as inflammatory or aggressive, that would probably be a miscommunication via lack of tone. common internet problem. really. my attitude towards stuff is basically as nonlethal as one can get. honest. :t

 

...also, Bionicle isn't the kind of fiction that was meant to take work or time or effort to understand, it's just too dense for its own good and takes a roadmap to navigate the cluttered worldbuilding or story progression. it's meant to be the kind of fiction kids 6-14 would be interested in, not the kind high schools make students write essays on over summer break. :/

 

(also, this is completely unrelated to the reboot, i just saw a topic about protodermis and what's up with it, and felt like putting in my ten cents about what is up with it, twice. :0)

Edited October 22, 2014 by Rahkshi Lalonde

[bonesiii]

..anyway, if i came across as inflammatory or aggressive, that would probably be a miscommunication via lack of tone. common internet problem. really. my attitude towards stuff is basically as nonlethal as one can get. honest. :t

Alright. I believe you. Thanks for making that clear. And my apologies for the same if I've failed in my tone too.

 

...also, Bionicle isn't the kind of fiction that was meant to take work or time or effort to understand

Sorry, but Greg has said this is in fact what the story team had in mind originally.

 

(Although he has also said that they try to shy away from too much detail on the scientific side in consideration of the target age. But there's nothing the target age can't handle about "fictional substance, so you can't prove it's impossible" which is all you really need to know.)

 

it's meant to be the kind of fiction kids 6-14 would be interested in

Well that's the thing -- the average six year old isn't going to worry about all the objections you've raised. They'll just accept it without question because it's more cool worldbuilding that's part of Bionicle which they love.

 

Now that isn't really the best intellectual response, and I like to try to figure out if things do make sense, and if they don't, it's still a problem. But point is, it really isn't a big problem even if its physics were a little implausible as the genre isn't meant to be perfectly realistic anyways. (That said, having looked into this subject in crazy detail as I love things like this, I'm well convinced protodermis is completely plausible... except maybe the "magic somehow" step that actually gets powers working but we can just call that part fantasy; it's "science fantasy", not science fiction... and even sci-fi has some things like that, like the psionic powers of Spock or Troi.)

[Regitnui]

I'd second bonesiii on that one. I've never heard a 6-14 year old start debating how (for sake of example) the Omnitrix works, or the difference between the planets in Thor's 'world-tree' and Guardians of the Galaxy's more freeform space travel across the universe. They just go "hey, this is x, it's cool because it does y'. Adult fans wonder about how the Omnitrix in Ben 10 differs from that in Omniverse and try drawing definitive maps of the Ben 10 Galaxy. Did you wonder about protodermis when you were younger, or did you just accept it then and only start questioning it now?

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

I'd second bonesiii on that one. I've never heard a 6-14 year old start debating how (for sake of example) the Omnitrix works, or the difference between the planets in Thor's 'world-tree' and Guardians of the Galaxy's more freeform space travel across the universe. They just go "hey, this is x, it's cool because it does y'. Adult fans wonder about how the Omnitrix in Ben 10 differs from that in Omniverse and try drawing definitive maps of the Ben 10 Galaxy. Did you wonder about protodermis when you were younger, or did you just accept it then and only start questioning it now?

 

when i was younger, i was unaware it was canon protodermis was the catch-all term for all substance in the MU.

[bonesiii]

What sources did you hear about it from, then, and when? Because that was made clear in the City Guide in 2004. Most of the things you cited from BS01 are just paraphrases of what's in that book.

[TheCleanser]

Alright, so I don't know if this has been done already, and if it has, then my apologies.

 

Anyway, I'm making this topic for the discussion of Protodermis; how it was made from EP, its properties, and such. Energized Protodermis too. 

 

Alright, so first of all, how in the world can protodermis exist both as a clear, water-like liquid, and as a hot, molten metal-like liquid? 

 

I actually went on a bit of a writing spree yesterday, and came up with a theory. Mind you, this is a bit scientific, so... anyway. I think that protodermis might actually not be regular matter, but rather something that might be called "psuedo-matter", quantum machines of relatively the same size as normal atoms, but with many intricate, controllable properties.

 

So... discussion?

 

I think that all in all, protodermis is based on the greek philosopher and matematichian, Thales's vision of the world.

That is, everything is made out of metaphysical water.

 

I have no idea if lego directly inspired themselves from Thales, or no, but this concept was developed before Christ(I suppose, too lazy to google.)

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

What sources did you hear about it from, then, and when? Because that was made clear in the City Guide in 2004. Most of the things you cited from BS01 are just paraphrases of what's in that book.

 

book? what?

 

I caught wind of the "all is proto and everything hurts" revelation some time around 2009-2010 on, if i recall, this very website. before then i found no hints as to it being the bio as well as the mechanical. :0

[bonesiii]

Everything hurts? What is that a reference to?

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

Everything hurts? What is that a reference to?

 

i can't remember, i just make weird references sometimes. it's a thing i do. breaks the monotony. :0

[fishers64]

There's a lot of questions here, so I'm going to start with this and go backward.

 

What sources did you hear about it from, then, and when? Because that was made clear in the City Guide in 2004. Most of the things you cited from BS01 are just paraphrases of what's in that book.

 
book? what?

 

I'm pretty sure that he is referring to this: http://biosector01.com/wiki/index.php/BIONICLE:_Metru_Nui_-_City_of_Legends

I happen to have a copy of said book. The following are direct quotes from its pages:
 

Protodermis
The city of Metru Nui rests on a sea of silver liquid liquid known as protodermis. With no fresh- or saltwater anywhere in the city, this is what the Matoran view as the "stuff of life". It is the source of almost everything created in the city.

Note the word "almost".
 

Protodermis comes in three known types:

Liquid Protodermis, such as that in the sea, which must be purified before it can be used for creation.

Solid Protodermis, mined in Onu-Metru and used for works of art and building materials. Every building in the city is made of soild protodermis.

Energized Protodermis, the rarest form. Its orgins remain a mystery. Onu-Metru miners have stumbled upon small amounts of this substance...Like raw liquid protodermis, energized protodermis is silver in color.

No organic proto is mentioned here. Page 8 mentions molten proto, as does page 42:
 

[Ta-Metru] is the district where Masks of Power, tools, disk launchers, and virtually every thing else used in Metru Nui are forged from molten protodermis.

Again, note the word virtually.

There is no mention of organic protodermis anywhere in that book.
 
*goes to BS01 page on proto*
 

Organic Protodermis
Organic Protodermis is a type of Protodermis that makes up all the organic tissue in the Matoran Universe. Being biomechanical beings, the inhabitants of the Matoran Universe are made partially of organic Protodermis and partially of solid Protodermis. It can decay over time if left inactive, but it also possesses remarkable regenerative abilities. For instance as the Toa Mata laid inactive in the ocean for a thousand years, their organic parts decayed; but they instantly regrew when they fused their lost limbs back on. As protodermis itself is an artificial substance; organic protodermis is not truly organic. Rather, it mimics the qualities of true organic tissue, such as a cellular structure and a protodermic equivalent to DNA.[1][2][3][4]

The bracketed numbers refer to a referencing system that refers to the LMB. So I'm going there: 
 

6) Organic protodermis (abbreviated as OP) technically isn't actually organic matter, right? As far as we know, OP:
-Does not require nutrition, only "energy" 
-Regenerates far more quickly, than actual organic tissue, as indicated by the Toa Mata
-Does not have a cellular structure, as indicated by the MU inhabitants' lack of a circulatory system
-Can seamlessly assimilate mechanical structures such as gears and pistons into their framework
Therefore, isn't "Organic" protodermis simply protodermis mimicking biology, rather than actually being it? 
 
6) Yes, I can see that
 
* * *
4) Does organic protodermis have a cellular structure?
 
4) Yes
 
* * *

4) Would it be safe to say that all MU inhabitants are protodermis-based lifeforms in the same way that we humans are carbon-based lifeforms?
 
4a) If so, can we call their DNA equivalent PNA, for protodermic nucleic acid?
 

4) Yes
4a) Up to you.
 
* * *
4) Does organic protodermis have DNA, then?
 
4) I suppose, but I really haven't thought about it.

Okay, so that's where this discussion may be coming from. However, all of the people here in this discussion assumed that organic proto existed. Did such a thing originate here? If so, it may be recent. 
 
As for official story sources that confirm organic proto, my brain draws no references. So time to break out the Greg Dialogues and check.
 

You said that all matter, living and non living is made of protodermis. Are Matoran made from protodermis?

Yes.

 
2003. This was BEFORE that book was published. 
 
[quote name=Official Greg Discussion, Jul 2 2003, 09:53 AM]
1. Are widgets(the MNOLG2 currency) made from Protodermis? Because in the lexicon it says protodermis is used as currency but we haven't seen it used that way yet.

Almost everything is made of protodermis.
 

5) Is takanuva's armor made of protodermis? and how hard would it be to cut into that stuff? They didn't have that much trouble ripping apart the rahkshi, and they were like pure protodermis.

Everything on Mata Nui (well, almost everything) is made of protodermis. However, there are different strength levels of protodermis, depending on how it was forged.

 
 

19. Is there any source of wood on Metru Nui?

No. Everything on Metru Nui is made of protodermis.

 
 
So that's where it's from, as far as I can tell. My memory index reads no references to organic proto prior to joining BZPower, nor to characters being made of the stuff. It's something that BZPower knows, thanks to Greg.

but anyway, what i meant is, somewhere, in one of these protodermis-related topics, or a different topic, can't recall. either you or another mentioned protodermis being the source of the elemental energies toa can fire and utilize.
 
but i'm fairly sure that was never backed up by the Bionicle story team, and isn't a credible statement. :0

That was my quick-draw logic: if protodermis can make powered objects, and Toa, Matoran, etc are made of proto, then where else can it come from? 
 
For the record, though, it's actually probably not true: 

6. Also, you've confirmed that elemental power and elemental energy for the Glatorian is exactly the same as how it works for normal Toa. However, I'm assuming Mata Nui didn't accidentally grant them the ability to use Great Masks or anything like Toa power in the process?
6) There would be no way to do that. Masks work because the Toa are bio-mechanical, mostly mechanical, and they are like power packs. They aren't going to work for Glatorian.

Glatorian aren't made of protodermis. 
 
So actually, that reasoning is false. What ever structure that holds and uses EE, it can be made of Bionicle normal matter or the protodermic equivalent. The protodermic equiv might be easier to mass-produce, but Mata Nui made the normal matter version in two seconds with the Mask of Life! 
 

 

Are you sure it's Liquid -> Molten? I thought you melted Solid to get Molten. And you left out Refined Protodermis, which is what masks and Kanoka were cast from.

 
i always thought solid too, but that's what the BS01 said, and i can't find any better resource for proto-smelting. :0 (refined how? as in refined liquid, or the refined metallic?)

 

It's actually in the Bionicle Metru Nui: City of Legends (see above): 
 

Liquid protodermis is drawn into Ga-Metru from the sea via a channel, which passes into the Great Temple. [...] From the Great Temple, protodermis travels in different directions. Some... Other protodermis is passed through pipes and superheated on its way to the foundries of Ta-Metru...Molten protodermis that goes unused is allowed to return the sea.

 

what? what?
 
how long has there been a matoran programming language? when was there a mask of conjuring? what does that have to do with protodermis? what?

http://biosector01.com/wiki/index.php/Mask_of_Conjuring#Mask_of_Conjuring
 
That's the mask of conjuring. It's a fan canonization - probably after 2006, since a Voya Nui Matoran was said to be wearing it.
 

These masks [refering to the Mask of Conjuring] (apart from the Mask of Healing) were originally part of the fan-based project "Expanded Multiverse"; they were adapted and later approved for canon by Greg Farshtey.

Let's not open that can of worms, shall we? 
 
As for programming language: 
 

1.If the Matoran were created by the great beings based on the Agori, then why don't they speak Agori?
 
1) Same reason your computer chips do not speak English. They are nanontech, so they speak programming language

 
 
2009, shortly after the giant robot reveal.

[bonesiii]

Now that you mention it, I do vaguely recall some "almosts" back in the day. Regardless, it's canon, whenever it was established.

 

As for Toa elemental powers being from the protodermis or not, either way could work IMO, regardless of the Glatorian. The Element Lords got elemental powers and turned into incarnations of their elements, so I doubt the battery thing in that one quote is a necessity (maybe it was basically retconned at that point). But whatever it is, we do know that elemental powers of a sort can come from proto, since they do with elemental masks. So the relevance to this topic is the same -- protodermis can do those powers. Not that it really matters since it can do just about any power as long as you find the right mixture for it (and the power has appropriate downsides, etc.).

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

yeah, see. like your average Bionicle fan, i don't troll the LMB on a regular basis, hence why i call those facts obscure. they can't be found in main Bionicle Media. :0

 

(i also fail to see the connection between that mask of conjouring and the topic of protodermis. hmmm. i: )

[Zox Tomana]

As regards organic proto: we've known for a long time about Matoran having organic parts, the organic brains of Bohrok (Krana), that sort of thing. We were also told that Matoran are made of protodermis. From those two things we concluded that there is organic protodermis. A more direct statement comes from Dwellers in Darkness:

 

Miserix extended a claw and scraped a piece off the armor of one of the bodies. He examined it carefully. “Fascinating. This armor is not made of protodermis. I would guess nothing about them is, from their organic tissue to their masks. Yet all things are made of protodermis. If they are not, that can only mean --”

According to Miserix, all things are proto, and it is apparently unusual that the (Glatorian) corpses don't have proto organics. There's a fairly straightforward story source.

 

 

how long has there been a matoran programming language? when was there a mask of conjuring? what does that have to do with protodermis? what?

It sounds like what you're saying is you may be fairly new to Bionicle? I didn't realize that. If that's so, that's okay, but remember that the things that were established were done over a span of years, so fans had time back then to get these things gradually.

 

Bones, one of those things was never featured in the story and is only known to people who either followed all the details of the OGD, heard about it when it happened (which conversation was probably limited to this site), or have found the Other Kanohi page on BS01. Either way, the Mask of Conjuring isn't a story detail that is prominent and can easily be missed/discarded while reading through the main storyline materials. The other thing, the programming language, is very late game, and while I swear there is a scene with GB's where their naming of Mata Nui is discussed--maybe in Journey's End?--and they might mention the programming language there, but otherwise I can't think of a main-story source speaking outright about programming languages. But yeah, neither of those points were reasons to assume this person was new to the story.

 

yeah, see. like your average Bionicle fan, i don't troll the LMB on a regular basis, hence why i call those facts obscure. they can't be found in main Bionicle Media. :0

 

(i also fail to see the connection between that mask of conjouring and the topic of protodermis. hmmm. i: )

It can be used as an example of proto being programmed/programmable, because you're words determine what happens with the mask. In effect, you program the mask to do things. Edited October 23, 2014 by Zox Tomana

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

(i also fail to see the connection between that mask of conjouring and the topic of protodermis. hmmm. i: )

It can be used as an example of proto being programmed/programmable, because you're words determine what happens with the mask. In effect, you program the mask to do things.

 

 

But... that's the masks power. you program into the power. the power stores the programmed power. that's what it does. that's the masks mask power. conjuring suggested powers. :0

[fishers64]

Power doesn't program stuff. I can bang on my computer all day long with all sorts of brute force and that won't program a single line. To program, there must be an input (normally a keyboard, or in this case Matoran speech), a programming language (something both the programmer and both the computer that is being programmed understand) and an output (something the computer/programee returns to the programmer). 

 

In this case, the Toa "programs" the mask by speaking into it, speaking the programming language for the power, and the mask "returns" the correct power to the user for use. 

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

Power doesn't program stuff. I can bang on my computer all day long with all sorts of brute force and that won't program a single line. To program, there must be an input (normally a keyboard, or in this case Matoran speech), a programming language (something both the programmer and both the computer that is being programmed understand) and an output (something the computer/programee returns to the programmer). 

 

In this case, the Toa "programs" the mask by speaking into it, speaking the programming language for the power, and the mask "returns" the correct power to the user for use. 

 

i think, as a whole. "program" was a reeeeeeally poor choice of words to forge in permanant canon for that mask ability, especially since the mask itself calls it "conjuring" and the technobabble confuses what could easily be said as: "the wearer simply speaks out the precise ability they wish to weild, within reasonable limits, and the mask grants this power temporarily. with a delay between uses."

 

all the info, none of the confusion. :u

[bonesiii]

Zox, I had said that because RL seemed unaware of basics that he cited from BS01 earlier about the different types of protodermis, which as I said goes back to the City Guide book in 2004. Anyways, doesn't matter as he answered the question (pretty much as I expected). Nobody ever said that every Bionicle fan would be expected to know every answer Greg's given, so it's pretty much pointless to spell it out as if I wasn't aware of it.

 

That's actually the point of things like this -- the fans who are more curious can buy reference books or search online for more Bionicle info and can be rewarded for it. You wouldn't want to lack extra details to reward them for a type of story like this, and it seems RL's argument was ignoring this, and acting like only the details featured in the main story itself should be canon or something. But very few worldbuilding stories use such a rule, and there's good reason for that.

 

 

As for this discussion about Conjuring, I don't really see what the confusion is, or what the point RL is trying to make about it would be. It seems you objected to the word "program", RL, but why? Is it just out of a fantasy versus sci-fi personal taste? I've seen that before in some members. If so, simply translate it in your head to a synonym that feels cooler to you (like the title of the mask itself; conjuring). Whether in fantasy or in sci-fi, the meaning is the same; a magician is "programming" a spell too, you know. (The word "program" in fact comes from the more basic, non-tech-related meaning that it used to have before tech was invented.) If that's not how you mean it, I'm at a loss as to imagine why you'd be confused.

[fishers64]

Zox, I had said that because RL seemed unaware of basics that he cited from BS01 earlier about the different types of protodermis, which as I said goes back to the City Guide book in 2004. Anyways, doesn't matter as he answered the question (pretty much as I expected). Nobody ever said that every Bionicle fan would be expected to know every answer Greg's given, so it's pretty much pointless to spell it out as if I wasn't aware of it.

I just pointed out that it doesn't go back to the City Guide in 2004. He was confused over organic protodermis, which wasn't listed or mentioned in that book.

 

There's a lot of questions here, so I'm going to start with this and go backward.

 

What sources did you hear about it from, then, and when? Because that was made clear in the City Guide in 2004. Most of the things you cited from BS01 are just paraphrases of what's in that book.

 

book? what?

 

I'm pretty sure that he is referring to this: http://biosector01.com/wiki/index.php/BIONICLE:_Metru_Nui_-_City_of_Legends

 

I happen to have a copy of said book. The following are direct quotes from its pages:

 

Protodermis

The city of Metru Nui rests on a sea of silver liquid liquid known as protodermis. With no fresh- or saltwater anywhere in the city, this is what the Matoran view as the "stuff of life". It is the source of almost everything created in the city.

Note the word "almost".

 

Protodermis comes in three known types:

 

Liquid Protodermis, such as that in the sea, which must be purified before it can be used for creation.

 

Solid Protodermis, mined in Onu-Metru and used for works of art and building materials. Every building in the city is made of soild protodermis.

 

Energized Protodermis, the rarest form. Its orgins remain a mystery. Onu-Metru miners have stumbled upon small amounts of this substance...Like raw liquid protodermis, energized protodermis is silver in color.

No organic proto is mentioned here. Page 8 mentions molten proto, as does page 42:

 

[Ta-Metru] is the district where Masks of Power, tools, disk launchers, and virtually every thing else used in Metru Nui are forged from molten protodermis.

Again, note the word virtually.

 

There is no mention of organic protodermis anywhere in that book.

 

[Emphasis mine.] 

 

And to be frank, you said he was "new to Bionicle" based on not knowing that, which would be something out of the Greg Dialogues, as I just proved further along in that post. (That's what I thought it was...anyway?)

 

At this point, Zox, I'm not sure it's worth hammering though. He did apologize further up for the attitude, okay? Let's not make a big deal out of this, please. It's not worth it. ( ) 

Edited October 23, 2014 by fishers64

[bonesiii]

I just pointed out that it doesn't go back to the City Guide in 2004. He was confused over organic protodermis, which wasn't listed or mentioned in that book.

As I said, I was referring to the other types he mentioned. Anyways, again, it doesn't matter, as he has now answered the question. I'm just making it clear why I asked in the first place since I was being misrepresented (don't exactly appreciate it, yanno?), although I'm sure not intentionally.

 

And to be frank, you said he was "new to Bionicle"

No, I asked if he was. O_o Suspecting he wasn't. Whah? I was trying to get him to say what I suspected, and what he did, that what was really going on was an assumption that there was a problem with factoring things only revealed by Greg rather than in-story, so I could explain the answer to that mistake if it was the case (as it apparently was ).

[Pohatu: Uniter of Stone]

I have no problem with Protodermis until you say it can be organic. In my headcanon, there is no such thing as organic proto since it just makes no sense.

[Regitnui]

It makes perfect sense. The only difference between organic tissue and inanimate objects is the chemistry used: carbon-based compounds are considered organic chemistry even though some of them are toxic to human physiology.

 

How many living creatures can you name that have an exoskeleton or armour of some description in their skin? Most of the creatures that live on earth now fulfill that requirement. Nothing about the MU lifeforms is particularly strange biologically, excepting that their body chemistry is based around protodermis rather than carbon. Both are inert chemicals, but are part of life.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

As for this discussion about Conjuring, I don't really see what the confusion is, or what the point RL is trying to make about it would be. It seems you objected to the word "program", RL, but why? Is it just out of a fantasy versus sci-fi personal taste? I've seen that before in some members. If so, simply translate it in your head to a synonym that feels cooler to you (like the title of the mask itself; conjuring). Whether in fantasy or in sci-fi, the meaning is the same; a magician is "programming" a spell too, you know. (The word "program" in fact comes from the more basic, non-tech-related meaning that it used to have before tech was invented.) If that's not how you mean it, I'm at a loss as to imagine why you'd be confused.

 

i don't see where you're getting any of that from?

 

all i did was re-phrase the mask power description to match basically every other mask power description. :0

[The Undertaken]

Well, I've never had any problems with protodermis. 

 

It was originally introduced in '01 as a multifaceted material of unknown value(Impenetrable barrier under Mata-Nui, some sort of ore-like substance throughout the island) it also hinted that some living things may be protodermic(the miner described the barrier as being likethe shell of an Ussal Crab). 

 

The end of '02 provided another facet for it, that being the transformation inducing power-juice, which would be reused in the MoL movie. I'm pretty sure that it was also mentioned around this time that EP usually disintegrates anything that comes in contact with it that isn't destined to transform either in Beware the Bohrok or during the comics.

 

'04-'05 gave a ton of info with the Metru-Nui guidebook. It is heavily implied that everything in the MU is protodermic, also at this point EP is also confirmed to disintegrate stuff. Add to that the Rahi guidebook(all of which was essentially canon afterwords) further implied as much. At some point the Toa-Metru encountered the Energized Protodermis-being while getting some of the stuff for a plant-monster, it implied that all EP is alive in some sense, or at the very least self-aware. Protodermic barriers made by a Toa-team have elemental properties, or at least react to elemental powers, perhaps implying some connection. Also know that protodermis is responsible for disk and mask powers, including time control.

 

'06 gave us antidermis, with weirder properties than most other protodermis but not as wantonly destructive as it could be, revealed to essentially be the opposite of EP as the two combining causes them to both be destroyed(used to great affect by the Inika)

 

I don't know all of what happened next though.

 

Even without going to Greg, we know that protodermis can mimic the properties of much of known matter, as well as some neat extra stuff that could fall under the duel categories of magic/sufficiently advanced tech. It can alter time and space! Life and death! It can see into your mind! Protodermis can see into your soul!

Seriously, what else would you call all that destiny stuff?

 

Add to that the fact that throughout '08-'10 we are treated to the knowledge that Mata-Nui is a giant robot(which in hindsight was surprisingly obvious), the Great Beings were responsible for the intelligence of the occupants of the MU, Velika caused the MU inhabitants to gain sapience, and basically that all MU inhabitants are(get this) robots! (well really more like nano-machines for the GS, but still programmed entities, coded to act within certain parameters)

 

My theory is this, all protodermis actively warps reality ever so slightly(or sometimes not so slightly) allowing it the vast majority of it's powers, primarily all the weirdness with EP.

[Regitnui]

Is antidermis related to protodermis at all? You know, beyond the name?

 

Antidermis in the Voya Nui arcs was destroyed by EP because it was Teridax's essence possessing the matoran, and as Teridax isn't destined to transform, EP destroys his essence. Other Makuta's antidermis could have been treated differently by EP.

[The Undertaken]

Hmm, actually I don't think it was...

 

Okay, so Antidermis is probably unrelated to protodermis. Thanks for pointing that out.

[bonesiii]

I have no problem with Protodermis until you say it can be organic [...] it just makes no sense.

Absolutely it does, just like organic matter and inorganic matter make sense, and virtual simulations of both inanimate objects and living things. (Also, it's not a good argument to say "it makes no sense", because you give no reasons why it doesn't, and even if you can't think of how it's possible, things can make sense without us knowing why; in other words, that's the fallacy of arguing from "ignorance", or lack of knowledge. There are still tons of mysteries about how biology works in the real world, for example, but work it does; it doesn't need our understanding to work. And even when someday we figure it out, that won't mean it only started working at that point in time. )

 

Also makes no sense to me to say that the substance that can run advanced powers (which even our most advanced tech can't do) is somehow unable to imitate life (which things in the real world do all the time, and we can even imitate technologically in just about every way other than full AI -- but things like muscles, lungs -- come on, that stuff's easy!).

 

 

Posted Oct 23 2014 - 10:20 AM

bonesiii, on 23 Oct 2014 - 01:52 AM, said:

As for this discussion about Conjuring, I don't really see what the confusion is, or what the point RL is trying to make about it would be. It seems you objected to the word "program", RL, but why? Is it just out of a fantasy versus sci-fi personal taste? I've seen that before in some members. If so, simply translate it in your head to a synonym that feels cooler to you (like the title of the mask itself; conjuring). Whether in fantasy or in sci-fi, the meaning is the same; a magician is "programming" a spell too, you know. (The word "program" in fact comes from the more basic, non-tech-related meaning that it used to have before tech was invented.) If that's not how you mean it, I'm at a loss as to imagine why you'd be confused.

 

i don't see where you're getting any of that from?

I was asking why you were confused about what I was saying about Conjuring ,which seemed straightforward to me. And answering the apparent best guess in case that was it. (Why is it some people in here, and in the last topic, are apparently having trouble with basic tools of communication like this, repeatedly, all of a sudden? I've seen BZP go through around ten years of nearly everybody getting such things, even when most online fans were much younger. What gives?) But since you didn't answer my question, I still don't know how to help clear up your confusion.

 

My only other guess is that you might be thinking only one specific type of explanation for protodermis can have "programming". But programming is just a word to describe rules of physics that cause a specific result. Taking away the word doesn't take away the logical neccessity of the meaning. However protodermis works, it has programming, behind every power.

 

(Now again, to be clear, if missing that was not your particular mistake, then I'm not saying it was. This is just in case it is, so I don't have to wait until later to give the answer. )

 

Well, I've never had any problems with protodermis. 

 

It was originally introduced in '01 as a multifaceted material of unknown value(Impenetrable barrier under Mata-Nui, some sort of ore-like substance throughout the island) it also hinted that some living things may be protodermic(the miner described the barrier as being likethe shell of an Ussal Crab).

I'm glad you had no problems with it, but there's a mistake in this post (this came up in a recent topic; you'd have to search my recent posts to find the detailed answer; I don't have time to dig it up now). 2001 never described that barrier as protodermis. We only know that it (and everything around it except the water on the surface world; Aqua Magna) is one type of proto in hindsight. Only the ore was called protodermis, until 2002 end when the silver shining transformative liquid was also called that, and then 2004, etc. with the others.

 

Your logic still works, though, because calling that ore "the stuff of life" did imply that living things could be (or involve) protodermis. So your earlier point also works as that still implies multiple forms of it. Just a bad premise mixed in with an otherwise good argument.

 

The end of '02 provided another facet for it, that being the transformation inducing power-juice, which would be reused in the MoL movie. I'm pretty sure that it was also mentioned around this time that EP usually disintegrates anything that comes in contact with it that isn't destined to transform either in Beware the Bohrok or during the comics.

Pretty sure that was a later twist, not revealed in 2002 or 3.

 

 

 

Outta time for now, more planned later.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

 

Posted Oct 23 2014 - 10:20 AM

bonesiii, on 23 Oct 2014 - 01:52 AM, said:

As for this discussion about Conjuring, I don't really see what the confusion is, or what the point RL is trying to make about it would be. It seems you objected to the word "program", RL, but why? Is it just out of a fantasy versus sci-fi personal taste? I've seen that before in some members. If so, simply translate it in your head to a synonym that feels cooler to you (like the title of the mask itself; conjuring). Whether in fantasy or in sci-fi, the meaning is the same; a magician is "programming" a spell too, you know. (The word "program" in fact comes from the more basic, non-tech-related meaning that it used to have before tech was invented.) If that's not how you mean it, I'm at a loss as to imagine why you'd be confused.

 

i don't see where you're getting any of that from?

I was asking why you were confused about what I was saying about Conjuring ,which seemed straightforward to me. And answering the apparent best guess in case that was it. (Why is it some people in here, and in the last topic, are apparently having trouble with basic tools of communication like this, repeatedly, all of a sudden? I've seen BZP go through around ten years of nearly everybody getting such things, even when most online fans were much younger. What gives?) But since you didn't answer my question, I still don't know how to help clear up your confusion.

 

My only other guess is that you might be thinking only one specific type of explanation for protodermis can have "programming". But programming is just a word to describe rules of physics that cause a specific result. Taking away the word doesn't take away the logical neccessity of the meaning. However protodermis works, it has programming, behind every power.

 

(Now again, to be clear, if missing that was not your particular mistake, then I'm not saying it was. This is just in case it is, so I don't have to wait until later to give the answer. )

 

your "question" was mostly an assumtion i had some sort of beef with the word "programming", which. i do not.

 

however, "Program" is , in modern times, a word most heavily associated with computers, and you darn well know that too, i'm sure. (so, no. a wizard does not "program" a spell, they cast, summon, conjour, or even just "whip one up") using words utside their common connotation is exactly what i mean when i say someone is being confusing. :/

 

and again, all i did was re-phrase that masks power description to less imply it was a complex machine rather than a simple carved mask. after all, the Hau is only described as "forming a shield" or even just "shielding", the furthest it goes is describing it as a "force field" which still doesn't sit as far into technobabble valley as this mask's description goes.

 

to refresh:

The Mask of Conjuring is a Kanohi that allows its user to program a limited power into the mask for a brief period of time. The user must describe in detail the power desired and at least one weakness. If the phrasing is spoken wrong, it causes intense psychic backlash in the user's mind. The user can use a programmed power for fifteen minutes (with a Great version), and after the time is out, the user must wait thirty seconds to activate the mask again. The Noble version will only work for five minutes.

 

versus

The Kanohi Hau is the Mask of Shielding. It allows its user to protect themselves from any physical attack that they are aware of by generating a force field. The only difference between the Great and Noble versions is that the Great version forms a stronger and longer-lasting shield than the Noble version.

 

it seems almost like the first description there was written with a more mechanically-oriented view of how kanohi masks and their internal powers work. :0

 

(this is only minorly related to protodermis, but i think it still relates enough? maybe?)

[Regitnui]

The thing is, we now know that the entire MU was one big computer, like Earth. What's wrong with using programming language to describe the function of a mask? The Mask of Conjuring (it isn't called the Mask of Programming, see) is simply a mask where its description is more complicated than activation-effect. If you have a problem with the wording, that's something to be taken up with BS01. The Mask of Conjuring (Can we call it the Kanohi Houdini?) isn't an example for or against protodermis' inherent qualities. It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think.

 

 

Two random references in one coherent post. I need some internets for that. HHGG and Firefly, for those who didn't get it.

 

[bonesiii]

Continued (but I'm in a huge hurry, pardon for any typos etc)

 

'04-'05 gave a ton of info with the Metru-Nui guidebook. It is heavily implied that everything in the MU is protodermic, also at this point EP is also confirmed to disintegrate stuff.

I'm glad somebody other than me felt that was implied. I'm getting curious enough to try (somehow) to find a moment maybe this week to re-read and see if I still think so.

 

Even without going to Greg, we know that protodermis can mimic the properties of much of known matter, as well as some neat extra stuff that could fall under the duel categories of magic/sufficiently advanced tech. It can alter time and space! Life and death! It can see into your mind! Protodermis can see into your soul!

Seriously, what else would you call all that destiny stuff?

I agree. (These are things my retelling especially explores, heh.)

 

Is antidermis related to protodermis at all?

Presumably so. It's another artificial substance made by the Great Beings, and has many of its traits (ability to have powers, ability to be organic, and come in at least three states), but it is probably at the most a variation on the theme. It seems to have been made later, so it would make sense that at first the GBs only had time to do a little modification of the natural design for their artificial protodermis, but with antidermis (or "the essence of Makuta" as they probably called it or something like that) had more time to introduce wackier alterations (but they may have been rushed, near the end of the deadline for the launch, so might have had some glitches in it).

 

Okay, so Antidermis is probably unrelated to protodermis

I don't see why we would think they're unrelated? It's probably not a form of the same substance like the other materials we've been discussing though, if that's what you mean.

 

your "question" was mostly an assumtion i had some sort of beef with the word "programming", which. i do not.

 

however, "Program" is , in modern times, a word most heavily associated with computers

Right... But only because "computers" as you're thinking of them happen to be the most common example in our time, in this world.

 

(so, no. a wizard does not "program" a spell, they cast, summon, conjour, or even just "whip one up")

But yes he does. That's literally what "spell" means, you know.

 

using words utside their common connotation is exactly what i mean when i say someone is being confusing. :/

Well, I believe that to you it must have been, but let's be fair here -- it shouldn't. You know that if a wizard was actually able to cast a spell, something that the term "computer" could describe in terms of function must exist. It doesn't have to be made of metal and plastic covers with coolant fans and the like, but a computer it is. Also, showing that one usage is most common doesn't at all show that other usages are confusing in plain English. (But I guess this just implies you haven't realized that a wizard is, objectively speaking, creating a program.)

 

Anyways, "conjuring" is the one that's more outside its normal connotation anyways, since that's a poetic name applied to use of a programming language to speak a program into an artificial substance with abilities to compute and act in response to it exactly. Calling this programming is the most accurate and clear. Calling it conjuring is accurate too but less clear if you think about it; we proposed that because it sounds cool. (But conjuring and poetic terms like that ARE commonly used in English for even tech purposes; a boss of a programmer might somewhat jokingly say, "Conjure up a program that does this for me," etc.)

 

and again, all i did was re-phrase that masks power description to less imply it was a complex machine rather than a simple carved mask. after all, the Hau is only described as "forming a shield" or even just "shielding", the furthest it goes is describing it as a "force field" which still doesn't sit as far into technobabble valley as this mask's description goes.

I don't know what your point is here. You're describing aspects of things, but none of it seems to make a point. The closest seems to be "less imply it was a complex machine", but the original wording says everything relevant to what it is. What do you mean by "machine"? Again, we don't know how it works, but we do know that it works, and so is a "machine" of sorts. I also don't see how your description implies a carved mask, but that's common knowledge anyways for Bionicle fans, so why must every power definition mention it?

Edited October 26, 2014 by bonesiii

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

using words utside their common connotation is exactly what i mean when i say someone is being confusing. :/

Well, I believe that to you it must have been, but let's be fair here -- it shouldn't. You know that if a wizard was actually able to cast a spell, something that the term "computer" could describe in terms of function must exist. It doesn't have to be made of metal and plastic covers with coolant fans and the like, but a computer it is. Also, showing that one usage is most common doesn't at all show that other usages are confusing in plain English. (But I guess this just implies you haven't realized that a wizard is, objectively speaking, creating a program.)

 

Anyways, "conjuring" is the one that's more outside its normal connotation anyways, since that's a poetic name applied to use of a programming language to speak a program into an artificial substance with abilities to compute and act in response to it exactly. Calling this programming is the most accurate and clear. Calling it conjuring is accurate too but less clear if you think about it; we proposed that because it sounds cool. (But conjuring and poetic terms like that ARE commonly used in English for even tech purposes; a boss of a programmer might somewhat jokingly say, "Conjure up a program that does this for me," etc.

 

 

now you're doing it again though. intentionally using things like "computer" outside their widely known definition simply to be contrary.

 

a wizard doesn't use a computer of any sort, maybe a very (very) hasty analogue to one, but not one a modern man would fathom applying the term to!

 

 

and again, all i did was re-phrase that masks power description to less imply it was a complex machine rather than a simple carved mask. after all, the Hau is only described as "forming a shield" or even just "shielding", the furthest it goes is describing it as a "force field" which still doesn't sit as far into technobabble valley as this mask's description goes.

I don't know what your point is here. You're describing aspects of things, but none of it seems to make a point. The closest seems to be "less imply it was a complex machine", but the original wording says everything relevant to what it is. What do you mean by "machine"? Again, we don't know how it works, but we do know that it works, and so is a "machine" of sorts. I also don't see how your description implies a carved mask, but that's common knowledge anyways for Bionicle fans, so why must every power definition mention it?

 

i didn't say in my re-prasing it was carved, that was the point. we all know it's just a carved chunk of protodermis.

 

i never once said anything in the re-phrasing that detracted from focusing on the masks power. which is, basically, "gives a requested power". how was that so hard for the original/official description to grasp?

 

(this relates to protoderrmis because they both suffer from the overuse of "technobabble" that, if i recall was part of why people hated 2008-onward. [don't quote me on that though, i didn't poll on this.])

Edited October 25, 2014 by Rahkshi Lalonde

[bonesiii]

now you're doing it again though. intentionally using things like "computer" outside their widely known definition

And for good reason. (But it's not that hard to get anyways. It's okay that you didn't, though. ) Masks themselves in Bionicle are "outside their widely used" meaning (they don't widely have powers. )

 

simply to be contrary.

No, not at all. Why do you assume so? O_o

 

Is Bionicle "just being contrary" to have masks with powers on everybody's face?

 

Edit: I'm still in a rush, will be for a while probably, but reeeal quick since I see this is still the latest post. To me, new ideas are about imagination, which is what LEGO is all about, right? Why do you have to see things from a negative perspective? Competing ideas make me curious. Maybe it's just how I am, but I don't think so; I think it's a lesson LEGO helped me see. That way you can also spread peace, not "contrariness."

 

Notice too that I could look the same way at your reaction if I so chose. And regardless of what your reason was, it seems that your argument here is what I have called "one-meaning-ism" before; the idea that only one particular meaning may be used, or in your case a variety of it that only one particular meaning could possibly be understood easily by most English speakers.

 

But I have heard people speak of DNA, the human brain, fictional nanites, and any number of other things with "programming" and people seem to easily get it. Not surprising; the concept is more important than what specific type of thing is being programmed. And more poetic synonyms like conjuring can be, and often are, interchangeable with this.

 

When you react as "you're just doing it again," it seems like you mean (but I'm not assuming; I never assume ) that once again I am not giving into "one-meaning-ism", which is true -- and nor should I. It's not how language is meant to work.

 

 

But... again, isn't "computer" much closer to the normal usage here? It's a "programming language" and "artificial", right? Things like "conjuring" are the ones where we stretched things, because we like the feel of it. However it's designed, protodermis does operate like a computer.

 

And what does "computer" mean anyways but "thing that computes"?

 

If proto molecules (or whatever they are) compute (as Greg's addition to that power definitely implies; get the wording slightly wrong and it messes up dangerously, just like a glitching computer), then certainly "computer" is a fair description of them. No?

 

 

 

Edit2: And again I have a bit of time. Noticed this at the end of your latest:

 

i never once said anything in the re-phrasing that detracted from focusing on the masks power. which is, basically, "gives a requested power". how was that so hard for the original/official description to grasp?

 

(this relates to protoderrmis because they both suffer from the overuse of "technobabble" that, if i recall was part of why people hated 2008-onward. [don't quote me on that though, i didn't poll on this.])

Two huge problems with this. First, from the end, you're just relying on personal taste again. We've been over the fallaciousness of that sort of argument. And it isn't a reasonable guess either, since Bionicle was always perceived as being about "robots". You can find some vocal complainers who didn't share that taste, but the majority it clearly is. That is, after all, why LEGO moved that way!

 

But what I like to point out to people is that really that "debate" is a myth. There's no difference -- if you have some emotional blockage against speaking clearly about what something is, and call a program a "spell", you're changing nothing about what it is. Just using different words to say the same thing. When people try to create an issue here, what they're really doing is revealing some illogic in their minds. Which is okay (and if they were the majority, LEGO would be wise to appeal to them anyways), but still illogic.

 

That was part of why we went for "Conjuring" with a clearly canonically plausible power definition, running off of the facts of the Matoran programming language etc. This way neither "side" of that "debate" can claim a victory, and both get a nod toward seeing it their way.

 

The other problem is calling it a "request." You are writing an exact spell and if you say it totally properly (like a good computer program), the power will come to be, temporarily. If you mess it up, it glitches and hurts you. But a request would imply that if you didn't use proper grammar, it would just be denied, and nothing would happen, rather than being harmful. And since that part was Greg's addition, I'd say you're on the shakiest ground of all there.

Edited October 26, 2014 by bonesiii