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Form of the Original Toa


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     Hey everybody. It's good to finally post something after lurking for so long. But anyways...

 

     What did the first Toa, created by the Great Beings ~100,000 years ago, look like?

 

     The earliest Toa to come into being that we have seen in set form were the Toa Mata; however, they might be considered an exception because they were created by Artahka, not the GBs. In addition, when Matoran become Toa, they take on the appearence of what they think a Toa should look like. So Lhikan and the Toa Metru are also irrelevant. The only sets we are left as with are the Inika, Mahri, Lesovikk, Jovan, Adaptive Armor Nuva, and Glatorian. We also have a text description of Helryx and, perhaps most valuable, a canon depiction of Nikila.

 

     Let us begin with Helryx, the first Toa ever created. In Swamp Of Secrets it says:

 

 

     She was not Makuta, but she was indecribably ancient and disturbingly frail in appearance. Her mask and armor were pitted and scarred from a thousand battles. She looked like a Toa, but her armor and mask design didn't resemble anything Takanuva had ever seen before.

 

     This doesn't tell us much, given that most of the description is dedicated to her fraility. However, the last sentence does tell us something: she does not look like the Toa Mata, at least to Takanuva. (Sadly, this means that the beautiful depiction of her by GarryTheSkrall may be non-canon. :dontgetit: )

 

     So what about the Inika and Mahri? They were not transformed, as normally, by Toa Stones containing Toa Energy but by the power of the Red Star. The result looked nothing like the Toa Mata or Nuva. This, I theorize, is because the Red Star was transforming them to match built-in blueprints, which would have been supplied by the Great Beings. This implies that the Inika build is at least similar to the design of the original Toa.

 

     Do other sources support this theory? Let's see:

 

     -Helyrx's description isn't very specific, but it suggests a build unlike any Takanuva had seen. Takanuva never saw the Inika, so she could have had an Inika build.

     -The Mahri were transformed by the Ignika and had similar build as the Inika, but with water gear. The Ignika would have built-in blueprints of Toa, supplied by the GBs, and made the Mahri similar to these.

     -Lesovikk was mutated, but if we assume the mutations were minor (and they appear to be) he would have had an Inika build before.

-Jovan, another early Toa, had an Inika build and may or may not have been transformed by a Toa Stone.

     -The Nuva, in Adaptive Armor, had Inika designs. (The usefulness of this is debatable. Is it reasonable to asume that the AA is designed to fit most Toa, and would therefore have to share the lowest common denominator of design - an Inika build? :shrugs: )

     -Glatorian are known to have been the inspiration for Toa, and featured the Inika build.

 

     The final piece of evidence is the drawing of Nikila. Since Nikila is an unmutated Toa from the early MU, presumably transformed by a Toa Stone or even created by the GBs themselves, she is an exceptionally accurate image of a typical early Toa. And indeed, she matches quite closely the Inika build: note that upper leg armor looks similar to that of Pohatu Phantoka or Gresh, and the upper arm armor (arm-or? :blink:) looks similar to Inika upper arm protection or that of Tarix.

 

     So, with no canon contradictions (that I have noticed), I present my final theory: The form of the original Toa, those created ~100,000 years ago by the Great Beings, is the Inika build.

 

     (Now all the Inika build haters can blanch at the disgusting thought of every Toa everywhere with the Inika build for thousands of years of MU history :P.)

 

     Anything I missed? I'm new here, so when you rip me apart, go easy :).

 

     EDIT: Removed incorrect statement about the Toa Mata's deterioration. Oops.

Edited by Johnrahk
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Actually, I think it was said before that Toa had different designs based on region. 

 

Also, look at the torso on the Nikila drawing: it has a gearbox, and is shaped more like a Metru or Mata than anything else.

 

I seem to recall seeing somewhere that the Mata were modeled after Helryx. Doesn't mean they looked exactly the same, but similar, much like the clothing we wear.

 

Since all Toa are about the same height, that means the parts don't always fit the character scale. The set designers had to use current parts, which means the in-story designs could very well be much similar than we think. Like the Nikila drawing--it incorporates traits from all Toa designs that we've seen.

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I agree with you. The Inika build was my favourite Toa build before the new 2015 gearbox can along and improved the CCBS amazingly. Also, something else to note: The Mata, Helryx and Orde were the only Toa which didn't transform from Matoran, and were instead created as Toa.

 

     Right, I had thought it uncertain which Toa were certainly Matoran at one point. But upon checking I see that this is true. Thanks :) .

 

 

Actually, I think it was said before that Toa had different designs based on region. 

 

     Yes, it was, but in this topic it was theorized that this was as a result of the fact that a Matoran becoming a Toa will look, as a Toa, like they think a Toa should look. Hence a gradual evolution of Toa body designs throughout the MU based upon the whims of the destined Matoran and the Toa they had seen. Over time (100,000 years!) you'd end up with regional variations, even if you started with a single basic structure.

 

 

Also, look at the torso on the Nikila drawing: it has a gearbox, and is shaped more like a Metru or Mata than anything else.

 

     True. Depending upon how long it was before Nikila became a Toa, there might have been a generation or two between the first Toa, with Inika builds, and Nikila. Or we could assume that Nikila never saw a Toa before herself, and her image of a Toa was based upon verbal description of these intial Inika build Toa, resulting in a build just slightly different. Based on the bloodline theory, we could even say that Nikila's design was the ancient antecedent to the Metru design, the gearbox becoming more pronounced over time.

 

 

I seem to recall seeing somewhere that the Mata were modeled after Helryx. Doesn't mean they looked exactly the same, but similar, much like the clothing we wear.

 

     This does nothing to discredit my theory. If we assume that Helryx was an Inika build, or similar, then based upon this statement the Toa Mata would also have been Inika builds (or similar.) However, after 100,000 years of degenerating in canisters, they wound up looking quite different. (They reassembled themselves upon landing, too - perhaps in doing so, they put themselves together differently than they had been before? That seems implausible, but just maybe...)

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I guess that does make sense from a storyline-logic standpoint. I think it's kind of weird to think that there is no definitive Toa design. I can work with the Inika design because it actually works. Remember that the Toa were based on Glatorian, and most of the Glatorian also had Inika designs. Definitely makes sense.

 

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I have to say this is a very logical conclusion, especially with what you added in your second post. I actually think it would be logical to presume that Helryx does indeed share her design with the Toa Inika, as the Toa Inika look pretty frail to me. (Note how thin and flat their bodies are and how proportionally skinny their arms look.) Of course, the story writers/set designers probably didn't plan it that far through. It was all probably just a coincidence. :P But regardless of whether or not it's a coincidence, I think it's perfectly logicall to assume the Inika designs were the designs of the earliest Toa. I'm going with that from now on.   :w: :e: :l: :l:    :m_d: :m_o: :n: :e:    :s: :i: :r:

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If it helps any, I recall Greg once saying that he considered the Metru and Mata builds to be the general standard throughout the universe, and the Inika build was a product of unnatural forces (RS), mutations, and strange new armor. (I don't keep records of the quotes, but I've got a good memory for things like this.)

 

And the Glatorian using the Inika build doesn't signify anything except that those were the parts that the set designers had on hand and that's what they decided to work with. 

 

Basically, I'm gonna stick with Greg on this. Metru and Mata is standard, Inika is a result of abnormal transformations. Jovan looks that way because he was made from sets available, and those were the parts they used.

 

Besides, wouldn't Artakha be fully aware of what Toa look like, since the GBs provided materials and blueprints? If Inika was the norm, that's what the Mata would look like. 

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I... I like this. Makes sense really, and it ties nicely how sets of 2006-2009 tie in together with being so similar and all. Other than, you know, saving money and functionabilty and so on.

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And the Glatorian using the Inika build doesn't signify anything except that those were the parts that the set designers had on hand and that's what they decided to work with. 

It might not signify anything but neither do any of the other builds. There is no true correct answer to the OP's question because it doesn't exist. But if you try to tie in this storyline logic to the sets, you can make it work.

 

-NotS

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If it helps any, I recall Greg once saying that he considered the Metru and Mata builds to be the general standard throughout the universe, and the Inika build was a product of unnatural forces (RS), mutations, and strange new armor. (I don't keep records of the quotes, but I've got a good memory for things like this.)

 

...

 

Basically, I'm gonna stick with Greg on this. Metru and Mata is standard, Inika is a result of abnormal transformations. ...

I remember Greg saying that too, but there's no reason this theory and Greg's statement can't both be true. Think about it: the "natural" way, even according to the Great Beings' plans, for Toa to come into being is to be transformed from Matoran. And right from the very first of those transformations, we'd already be looking at slight changes from the original design. So after 100,000 years of slight alterations from one generation to the next, "unnatural forces" or "abnormal transformations" would be the only way a new Toa could end up looking like the earliest generation of their predecessors. To put it in evolutionary terms, it would be like a human being born today with the physique, appearance, and genome of a Neanderthal :P

 

EDIT: Just realized, the changes in transformation would probably have only begun after Velika upgraded the MU inhabitants to sapience, before which Matoran would not have had imaginations with which to alter the blueprints programmed into them. So deviations from the original design were not part of the GBs' plan, but nevertheless, we can still assume that 100,000 years is long enough for the Metru build to become standard.

 

(Incidentally, do we have an exact date for Velika's upgrade? BS01 says it was "after some years," but it must have been very early on, since it was already in effect when the Mata were created.)

 

Besides, wouldn't Artakha be fully aware of what Toa look like, since the GBs provided materials and blueprints? If Inika was the norm, that's what the Mata would look like

Maybe they did. Like Johnrahk pointed out in their second post, we can't know for sure exactly what the Mata looked like before they spent 100,000 years degenerating in a heavy stasis field.

 

And the Glatorian using the Inika build doesn't signify anything except that those were the parts that the set designers had on hand and that's what they decided to work with.

 

...Jovan looks that way because he was made from sets available, and those were the parts they used.

That doesn't explain anything in-universe, though :P

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Since the OP was kind enough to acknowledge my regional Toa design theory, I guess I'm on board. I do like the Inika being transformed to a sort of 'default' Toa form, which their personal perceptions altered slightly.

 

One caveat though: the Metru build would have similar articulation to the Inika build, if the physical parts had allowed it. So the Metru build is a more streamlined, thinner version of the Original build. Perhaps we can claim Jovan's area of the MU tended towards bulkier builds. The Mata... Headcanon states that the Nuva was their original forms and the EP in the Bahrag's lair fixed them.

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I enjoy the theory as a story point, but I never pictured Helryx with an Inika build, mostly because at the time it was being used a lot on everything and I wanted her to be unique. I also had a build of my own that, though I never had the right pieces in the right colours to build helryx, I liked to use whenever I'd build a Toa.

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Since the OP was kind enough to acknowledge my regional Toa design theory, I guess I'm on board. I do like the Inika being transformed to a sort of 'default' Toa form, which their personal perceptions altered slightly.

 

One caveat though: the Metru build would have similar articulation to the Inika build, if the physical parts had allowed it. So the Metru build is a more streamlined, thinner version of the Original build. Perhaps we can claim Jovan's area of the MU tended towards bulkier builds.

I was assuming that Jovan looked that way because he was from an early generation of Toa...but he's even bulkier than the Inika, now that I recall. Perhaps it's a gradient from north to south: the further south you are, the more harsh and unforgiving the landscapes get (corroborated by the fact that the lands in the GSR's legs were almost entirely uninhabited), and so the bulkier and more durable a Toa would need to be

 

The Mata... Headcanon states that the Nuva was their original forms and the EP in the Bahrag's lair fixed them.

Hmm, not sure I'd agree with the Nuva forms being the original, but I definitely think there was some restoration going on. Page 17 of the style guide booklet refers to the Toa Nuva as "strange, armoured giants" (emphasis mine). So I'm thinking the 100,000 years of stasis deterioration reduced the Toa Mata in size, just as the Matoran of Metru-Nui were reduced by Teridax's stasis pods, and the Nuva transformation restored them to their original heights.

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Well, this theory is well-evidenced and logical.

Problem is, it doesn't seem well-supported in terms of showing that this is an intentional pattern by LEGO.

Nikila for instance is a fan work so isn't really evidence of LEGO's intent. The Inika build usage later on is clearly for set reasons and the fact that the canon stopped even trying to explain it showing up everybody implies to me that unlike with the Mata (and Nuva) and Metru builds, we're not meant to take the set form that seriously. And it doesn't explain Lhikan, Norik, and Iruini well; they seem more likely as representative of the typical builds throughout the universe, which in turn seems most likely as the closest to the ancient standard. While Jovan may evidence the Inika build being common somewhere, and I personally suspect Lesovikk's build is basically accurate to his pre-mutation form, we still are left with two main candidates for the ancient build (if that remained common) -- Metru (Lhikan etc.) and Inika (Jovan).

But the logic does work because of your Inika/Mahri default-form reasoning. Even if the Inika form is now more rare than the Metru form, in fact, it could still be the more ancient and consistent with Helryx.

So, as a "LEGO could do this and it would make sense in hindsight" theory (and I encourage such theories :)), yeah, this works great (as far as I saw so far anyways... I'm tired and in a hurry though so mighta missed something). And that's probably all you meant by it, so cool. Still, worth clarifying that as a "LEGO meant to imply this" theory, I don't think it works, and it's just as plausible that she looks like the Metru, as Takanuva hadn't seen those either (far as I recall???), and the Toa Inika team's form could have some other explanation.

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Something people need to realize is this theory, while logical, doesn't necessarily imply that the developers had planned any of this ahead of time. It is still a perfectly logical assumption and can still be accepted as canon regardless of whether or not they did. I agree with everything stated in this theory in addition to what Bonesiii stated. But that doesn't mean I believe the story writers/set designers had planned this all out.

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So, as a "LEGO could do this and it would make sense in hindsight" theory (and I encourage such theories :)), yeah, this works great (as far as I saw so far anyways... I'm tired and in a hurry though so mighta missed something). And that's probably all you meant by it, so cool. Still, worth clarifying that as a "LEGO meant to imply this" theory, I don't think it works, and it's just as plausible that she looks like the Metru, as Takanuva hadn't seen those either (far as I recall???), and the Toa Inika team's form could have some other explanation.

Ah, that's a good point. He would have seen Lhikan during his time on Metur Nui, but after the mind wipe, he wouldn't have had any way of knowing how they looked, and so Helryx would be completely unfamiliar to him if she were Metru-shaped.

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Meh, I can imagine the standard Toa build being the Inika build, but without the same masks. The Inika masks were "organic" (I don't even know how that works for a mask), and considered very weird.

 

 

 

 

    However, after 100,000 years of degenerating in canisters, they wound up looking quite different. 

Also explains why the Toa Mata are midgets compared to the Inika.

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Also explains why the Toa Mata are midgets compared to the Inika.

This is a huge misconception that has been cleared up many times over. In story, all Toa are around 7 feet tall, meaning the Mata/Nuva are the same height as the Inika. The sets differ in height so much because of the scale of the pieces the set designers used. 

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Also explains why the Toa Mata are midgets compared to the Inika.

This is a huge misconception that has been cleared up many times over. In story, all Toa are around 7 feet tall, meaning the Mata/Nuva are the same height as the Inika. The sets differ in height so much because of the scale of the pieces the set designers used. 

 

Oh, ok... 

I always loved the idea of the Toa Mata towering over the Jaller, Kongu, etc. and then it being the other way round on Voya Nui.

But it's not true...

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So was Krakua excluded due to him being a fan made creation, due to him being a toa for only a short time and therefore not eligible to look similar to the original toa designs since the designs changed and mutated as time went on, or did you just forget about him?

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Interesting theory. I've thought of this over the years too, but from what I've heard, all Toa have the same general build. The three variations we've seen (Mata, Metru. and Inika, as we call them) just had different builds because of set design evolution. In my headcanon though, I like to think of the Inika build as the standard fom of Toa.

 

I also found something I found questionable:

 

          The earliest Toa to come into being that we have seen in set form were the Toa Mata; however, they might be considered an exception because a) they were created by Artahka, not the GBs, and b) we only ever saw them after their period of physical deterioration inside the canisters.

Where was it said that the Toa Mata deteriorated in their canisters? Even if that was the case, I'd think whoever made the Toa Canisters (likely either Artakha or the Great Beings) would design them so the Toa wouldn't deteriorate, especially since part of the Toa Mata's function was to stay there for an indefinite amount of time.

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I may have hypothesized something in that direction in a previous thread, but it was just my headcanon. I always felt the Nuva felt more like Toa than the Mata, especially considering later years. But I've never seen or heard anything officially stating that.

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I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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     Wow, a lot of people seem to think I was implying that Lego planned this all along. I had better clarify: this theory in no way proposes an intentional pattern by Lego. It's completely in-story, like Tolkien's Matoran dictionary, and I recognize that the reason Lego stuck with the Inika build was because it was the most versatile and resusable torso structure to date. Just to clear that up ;).

 

    But anyways... [/defensive]

 

    I totally forgot about the Hagah, which is a mistake seeing as they're actually the earliest (unmutated) Toa we have in set form besides Jovan. Let's see...

 

    The earliest date BSO1 lists for any of the Toa Hagah is for Norik, "sometime before 7,000 years ago," helping Varian on the Northern Continent in No One gets Left Behind (which is, again, fan content, so we can't judge Lego's intent with this, but I'm not trying to.) This was before Norik was selected as a Hagah for his merit in combat by the BoM. Working backwards from this, I would assume Norik became a Toa between 10,000 and 20,000 years ago, leaving him around 5 to 18 thousand years to prove himself as an exceptional Toa in the eyes of the BoM before they recruited him as Teridax' personal guardian. (Do those numbers sound reasonable?)

 

     That's at least 4/5 of the way through the history of the MU before he became a Toa, more than enough time for the standard form of Toa to go from Inika/Original to Metru/Hagah, at least in the northern regions of the universe. And of all the Metru gearbox builds we saw, none looked closer to the Inika build than the Hagah, with their chestplates (although those are probably more beacause they're Hagah), Rahkshi/Vahki leg pieces, and Metru leg pieces as arms rather than Metru lower arm pieces. So I'd say the Hagah are good examples of the transistion, 'missing links,' if you will, from Original to Metru build.

 

     However, the Hagah might be an issue to the regional variations theory.

 

 

They were selected by the Brotherhood of Makuta from pre-existing groups of Toa with origins from various areas of the Matoran Universe.

 

     [from BS01, emphasis mine.]

 

     The two Hagah we've seen were fairly alike in build. Of course, Norik is shorter, but other than that they're practically clones. We can't see canon images of the other Toa Hagah, unfortunately, so we can't judge how varied they are. Maybe of all of them Norik and Iruini looked the most alike, and some of the others would have had the theorized more rugged builds of the Northern Continent. (Or Stars builds :P.) So they aren't very good evidence against or for the regional variations theory.

 

    

 

And it doesn't explain Lhikan, Norik, and Iruini well; they seem more likely as representative of the typical builds throughout the universe, which in turn seems most likely as the closest to the ancient standard.

    

Well, I would say that since Lesovikk and Jovan became Toa before Lhikan, Norik, and Iruini, they're the ones closer to the ancient standard, regardless how many later Toa had Metru builds. The standardization of the Metru build in later years could be a result of some very sucessful and heroic Metru build Toa long ago inspiring a great many Matoran (or something).

 

 

 

So was Krakua excluded due to him being a fan made creation, due to him being a toa for only a short time and therefore not eligible to look similar to the original toa designs since the designs changed and mutated as time went on, or did you just forget about him?

 

     No, I forgot about him - sorry about that! Even though he was fan-made, he's canon. If I didn't count him because of that, I couldn't count Nikila either. Still, he only became a Toa, like, a year ago? He's not much evidence for the Inika build being the Original build. But he does support the regional variations theory, given his unique build and homeland on the Northern Continent.

 

 

 

     The earliest Toa to come into being that we have seen in set form were the Toa Mata; however, they might be considered an exception because a) they were created by Artahka, not the GBs, and b) we only ever saw them after their period of physical deterioration inside the canisters.

Where was it said that the Toa Mata deteriorated in their canisters? Even if that was the case, I'd think whoever made the Toa Canisters (likely either Artakha or the Great Beings) would design them so the Toa wouldn't deteriorate, especially since part of the Toa Mata's function was to stay there for an indefinite amount of time.

 

The thousand years had taken a toll upon the Toa Mata, however. Their organic tissue had decayed over the years, and they had to rebuild themselves once they had arrived on the island.

 

    That's from BS01. (Maybe someday I'll figure out how to get it to say that in the box.)

 

 

 

Interesting. Now that you mentioned it, it makes sense the Toa Inika build being the basic Toa armor. But as far as this theory makes sense, I hope it is not indeed canon because it would "kill" the diversity that I imagined all Toa having.

 

     Well, only for the first couple thousand years of MU history. After that, different Matoran' (Matoran's? Matorans'? What the Karz is the possesive of Matoran?) perceptions of how a Toa should look would begin to vary the build more and more. Check out the bloodline theory for more; that topic inspired me to this.

 

     Oh, and don't this theory can't kill anything for Gen 2. The new Toa are more varied than anything we've ever seen. :D

 

     Anyways, I hope my ideas make sense, and I'm not just seeing what I want to see here?

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     The earliest Toa to come into being that we have seen in set form were the Toa Mata; however, they might be considered an exception because a) they were created by Artahka, not the GBs, and b) we only ever saw them after their period of physical deterioration inside the canisters.

Where was it said that the Toa Mata deteriorated in their canisters? Even if that was the case, I'd think whoever made the Toa Canisters (likely either Artakha or the Great Beings) would design them so the Toa wouldn't deteriorate, especially since part of the Toa Mata's function was to stay there for an indefinite amount of time.

 

The thousand years had taken a toll upon the Toa Mata, however. Their organic tissue had decayed over the years, and they had to rebuild themselves once they had arrived on the island.

 

    That's from BS01. (Maybe someday I'll figure out how to get it to say that in the box.)

Being an editor of BS01, I always thought that just meant they fell apart in their canisters, and just had to rebuild themselves. It sounds pretty clear to me that that was what it meant.

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On the topic of Krakua, look at his torso shape. Though entirely custom, his overall shape resembles that of the Toa Mata. Having built him using the provided instructions, I can say it does look and feel like a slightly larger version of the Mata torsos. The actual parts use for the Mata limbs weren't flexible, so I've always seen Krakua as being a larger approximation of the Mata design.

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The organic components of the Toa Mata deteriorated inside the canisters and they had to reassemble their mechanical parts. It did not change their appearance. They did not add or change any parts. They just fell apart and put themselves back together.

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Johnrahk:

No, I forgot about him - sorry about that!

No apologies necessary, I forgot about him too until I skimmed through the Helryx page on BS01 :P.

 

Also, on the Mata debate and their organic parts deteriorating and all of that stuff, on the BS01 page for protodermis (organic protodermis to be exact), it says:

 

[Organic protodermis] can decay over time if left inactive, but it possesses remarkable regenerative abilities.  For instance as the Toa Mata laid inactive in the ocean for a thousand years, their organic parts decayed; but they instantly regrew when they refused their lost limbs back on.    

  I don't know if that helps the argument, but it's something.

 

(Now if only I could figure out how to properly quote people :P)

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Quick off topic aside: To quote another member's post in the forum, click on the quote button next to their post.
 

 

The thousand years had taken a toll upon the Toa Mata, however. Their organic tissue had decayed over the years, and they had to rebuild themselves once they had arrived on the island.

 
    That's from BS01. (Maybe someday I'll figure out how to get it to say that in the box.)

 

To insert a sourced quote from BS01, type this:
 

[quote name="BS01"]Authoritative text from your friendly reference source[/quote]

Now back on topic:

However, the Hagah might be an issue to the regional variations theory.
 

They were selected by the Brotherhood of Makuta from pre-existing groups of Toa with origins from various areas of the Matoran Universe.

 
     [from BS01, emphasis mine.]
 
     The two Hagah we've seen were fairly alike in build. Of course, Norik is shorter, but other than that they're practically clones. We can't see canon images of the other Toa Hagah, unfortunately, so we can't judge how varied they are. Maybe of all of them Norik and Iruini looked the most alike, and some of the others would have had the theorized more rugged builds of the Northern Continent. (Or Stars builds :P.) So they aren't very good evidence against or for the regional variations theory.

 


Keep in mind that the Hagah were given special armor, masks, and weapons apon becoming Hagah. That might make them more like each other.
 

 After that, different Matoran' (Matoran's? Matorans'? What the Karz is the possesive of Matoran?)

Matoran. Jaller is a Matoran and there are five Matoran over there. 

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Off-topic:

 

After that, different Matoran' (Matoran's? Matorans'? What the Karz is the possesive of Matoran?)

Matoran. Jaller is a Matoran and there are five Matoran over there.

 

He asked about possessive, not plural. That would be "Matoran's", whether singular or plural. (I've wondered this before so researched it. :P It would fall under words like sheep; a pasture of multiple sheep is the sheep's pasture. :))

 

On-topic....

 

Yeah I got nuthing. Grammar geek here. :P

 

Ummm... I doubt the Toa Mata's metal components changed in the canisters. There, that was on-topic, yay.

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I had a thought on the Mata/Nuva part of the theory, specifically, concerning the Adaptive Armor:

 

The sets we got in '08 would have looked mostly the same way they did in '02.

 

Why?

 

Think about it this way: When the Mata transformed, they were given extra armor. The best example of how this works is depicted in Mask of Light--you can see Mata-style limbs underneath the "Nuva" limbs. This would indicate and only help my longtime theory that, underneath their Nuva armor, they still look exactly the same as they did as Mata. Thus, if they took off their armor, they'd look exactly like they did before they took an EP bath.

 

Back to my "human clothing" example from before. Say I'm just wearing spandex, and I put on a leather jacket, a pair of jeans, and some running shoes. This is our metaphorical Nuva transformation. Now, what if I take that off and put on a raincoat, some snow pants, and boots? Has by body underneath changed? No. I just changed my outer covering--my armor, if you will.

 

What would this concept suggest about the Nuva? We know they had to take off their Nuva armor to wear the AA. But the AA wouldn't have changed their bodies, just the external features. It'd be the same as my "snow suit" turning into scuba gear--that's what the AA does. So, my take on it is that the in-story Phantoka and Mistika were shaped exactly the same as their '02 counterparts, just with some different details and and features on their external covering. This means that they weren't as thin and broad as their set forms would suggest--we can attribut that one to the set designers having only the more versatile Inika/Piraka build to work with.

 

My Krakua example from earlier (looking like a larger version of the Mata) suggests that he was familiar with Toa that looked like that, and the only Toa we can confirm he ever encountered was Helryx. This doesn't mean he took on her likeness when he transformed, but it's plausible.

 

The Inika were just a strange transformation in general, something that no one else in their universe has ever gone through. The Ignika would later adapt these forms for an underwater environment. So, the Inika transformation is a sketchy example at best, and since the Ignika would have known that they just got those bodies, it wouldn't have changed them too much so they wouldn't struggle to adapt too much.

 

The Glatorian are said to look more like humans, and I seriously doubt a humanoid could comfortably fit into a suit of armor like that. I think we're best left saying that these sets are just representative of something entirely different in-story.

 

This leaves leaves us with only two examples: Lesovikk and Jovan. Lesovikk wasn't in the Pit for very long, but Toa don't naturally have an immunity to the mutagen. Brutaka and Nocturn's species do, but not Toa (The Mahri were like that because the Ignika made them so). This means Lesovikk could have changed a bit more than we think, given that he was down there for at least a few days, meaning he had to have changed somewhat. Jovan was thrown together by the designers from pre-existing sets, and had little to no story impact, so would have been more of an afterthought than anything (He wouldn't have had a glowing face or organic mask like they did, which makes him a sketchy example as well.)

 

Back to my Greg example from earlier, I'm gonna have to say that Metru and Mata are the overall norm. Plus, all the Inika builds happened at a more recent date. Lesovikk's mutation, Jaller & Co."s transformation, etc., all happened within the span of a year (in story), a year which happened after 100,000 years was up (excluding Jovan, who we know happened earlier, but I've already explained him). :P

 

Thoughts on any of this?

Edited by ~The 1st Shadow~
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Back to my Greg example from earlier, I'm gonna have to say that Metru and Mata are the overall norm. Plus, all the Inika builds happened at a more recent date. Lesovikk's mutation, Jaller & Co."s transformation, etc., all happened within the span of a year (in story), a year which happened after 100,000 years was up (excluding Jovan, who we know happened earlier, but I've already explained him). :P

 

Thoughts on any of this?

 

Looking at LOMN now, the Toa look quite similar to the Inika build.

 

I'm not so sure if the Mata are the overall form. I mean, we only know about one Matoran who became Toa by meeting them, in this case Takua. And Mata designs are kind of "special" because they are supposed to resemble Mata Nui's body(I guess ?).

 

And I'm going to leave this here: Let's suppose a Matoran who became Toa never saw another Toa before. How would his shape be ?

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Back to my Greg example from earlier, I'm gonna have to say that Metru and Mata are the overall norm. Plus, all the Inika builds happened at a more recent date. Lesovikk's mutation, Jaller & Co."s transformation, etc., all happened within the span of a year (in story), a year which happened after 100,000 years was up (excluding Jovan, who we know happened earlier, but I've already explained him). :P

 

Thoughts on any of this?

 

Looking at LOMN now, the Toa look quite similar to the Inika build.

 

I'm not so sure if the Mata are the overall form. I mean, we only know about one Matoran who became Toa by meeting them, in this case Takua. And Mata designs are kind of "special" because they are supposed to resemble Mata Nui's body(I guess ?).

 

And I'm going to leave this here: Let's suppose a Matoran who became Toa never saw another Toa before. How would his shape be ?

 

Greg has stated that it would basically default to something resembling a cross between Mata and Metru, unless the Matoran had some sort of deformity, like the Voyatoran or the mutated Radiak, in which case it would look like something else altogether.

 

I recall a question that asked something like that. "If a Matoran had never seen a Toa, would they turn into whatever they thought a Toa looked like?" Gregs response was to say that it would either do that, or set to a default. Because, what if their idea of a Toa was a ten-foot tall creature with wings and 4 arms? There has to be some kind of default system to avoid that sort of thing, and since Greg thinks of Mata/Metru as the norm, I'm gonna stick with that answer. Make sense?

Edited by ~The 1st Shadow~

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I'd say this theory is pretty darn spot on. However, I'd like to add something to this.

 

If this is what we're to assume Toa of old looked like, then we can only assume that later forms of the Toa derivative of the Metru build (Toa Hagah, Toa Mangai) are a more streamlined, efficient, evolved design than what the Great Beings originally whipped up. Perhaps this was just something that happened as newer, later generations of Toa came to be. Maybe the Makuta had a hand in this, given the Toa Hagah's role in assisting them. We may even assume that THIS design is derivative of the Toa Mata, that the Toa Metru and so on are based on Artahka's original design for Tahu and the others. If Tahu and co are some early prototype design that later on inspired the Metru build, then we can assume that at least by that point in the story, the Metru build makes the ideal Toa.

 

Man, it's fun linking all this stuff together.

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This means that they weren't as thin and broad as their set forms would suggest--we can attribut that one to the set designers having only the more versatile Inika/Piraka build to work with.

But again, you can't use "that's what the set designers had to work with" to explain appearances in-universe. It just falls on its face. Unless, of course, you're trying to argue that the appearance of sets should be considered non-canon. I can't tell what your angle is on that.

 

I'd say this theory is pretty darn spot on. However, I'd like to add something to this.

 

If this is what we're to assume Toa of old looked like, then we can only assume that later forms of the Toa derivative of the Metru build (Toa Hagah, Toa Mangai) are a more streamlined, efficient, evolved design than what the Great Beings originally whipped up. Perhaps this was just something that happened as newer, later generations of Toa came to be. Maybe the Makuta had a hand in this, given the Toa Hagah's role in assisting them. We may even assume that THIS design is derivative of the Toa Mata, that the Toa Metru and so on are based on Artahka's original design for Tahu and the others. If Tahu and co are some early prototype design that later on inspired the Metru build, then we can assume that at least by that point in the story, the Metru build makes the ideal Toa.

 

Man, it's fun linking all this stuff together.

Isn't it, though? :D That's basically the same line of thinking I was going down further back in the thread (post #13), but I hadn't thought of the Makuta having a hand in the evolution. It even makes sense -- given their elevated status, there would have been a significant period of time during which the Hagah would have been regarded throughout the MU as the quintessence of the "ideal Toa." There, now we know exactly how the Metru build became standard :P

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     Well, we know the Mata form can't be the Original, because Helryx would be the Original and she looked totally unique to Takanuva, who had seen the Mata. I think it makes most sense if we assume that they were different because they were created by Artahka. And another thing (link):

 

     [quote name="A chat with Greg Farstey said"]7 Without their armor on, do Toa resemble the original Mata prototypes? 7 I don't think so, no[/quote]

 

     So the clothes analogy is off. Sorry. :confused:

 

     The Metru is probably the norm throughout the universe now, being the inevitable streamlined pinnacle of Toa design (like Homo Sapiens Sapiens is the current form of humans, having supplanted the Neanderthals.) But that doesn't mean it was always the norm, and it wouldn't explain Jovan, Lesovikk, or the Inika's builds. Does anyone have that Greg quote about a default? From what people are posting, it seems that Greg could either be saying a) that there is a default, and unrelatedly, the Metru build is standard throughout the universe, or b) that there is a default, and it's the Metru build, which is standard throughout the universe.

 

     EDIT: I can't get the quote to work...

Edited by Johnrahk

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