Copper Masks Uses?

[Banana Gunz]

So the Copper masks were won by matoran on the island of Mata-Nui (and Metru-Nui? I don't remember anymore...) Could a matoran replace one of their own masks with one and have it work the same way, and would they? After all, wearing one would kind of be like show-casing your award to the world, whereas it would just be hanging on their wall.

[Sumiki]

I don't believe they were ever functioning masks at any power level, unless Greg retconned that.

[Boidoh]

Copper Masks are just that. copper masks. masks made of copper.

 

They were like trophies of sorts. They are non functional.

 

Though Greg has said that copper coloured masks do exist...

[Regitnui]

So while Copper Masks aren't Kanohi, a CopperMask winner could have a copper-coloured Kanohi made to wear, like a Oscar-winning actor getting a small Oscar badge to put on their lapel.

[Boidoh]

I don't think functioning Kanohi would be given out. If I remember correctly, masks were not in production on Mata Nui.

[Pohatu: Uniter of Stone]

Well if they were copper, they can't have powers since its not protodermis... unless it is a copper/proto alloy. 

[N.S.M.8]

They are powerless Matoran Masks.  They could be worn, but they provide no more benefit than any other powerless mask.  

Do you really want to wear it and risk it breaking?

[Boidoh]

They are powerless Matoran Masks.  They could be worn, but they provide no more benefit than any other powerless mask.  

 

Do you really want to wear it and risk it breaking?

 

Where are you getting that from? I remember asking Greg some 20 questions about copper masks...

Copper masks are NOT powerless Matoran Masks. They are not even Kanohi. They are just some ceremonial thingy shaped like a mask. Just a trophy shaped like a mask. If a Matoran was in a coma and then they found a copper mask it would provide NO effect, because they are just, in power sense, junk.

[Ballom Nom Nom]

If a Matoran was in a coma and then they found a copper mask it would provide NO effect, because they are just, in power sense, junk.

I'd hazard a guess that a Matoran in a coma wouldn't find too many things anyway?

 

But making the masks not even function as normal ones seems odd. What good is a trophy if trying to show it off makes you fall into a coma and die? Maybe you can impress people with your trophy at your funeral?

 

~B~

[Toa of Gallifrey]

You could just slip it on top of your normal mask.

[northmarch]

But making the masks not even function as normal ones seems odd. What good is a trophy if trying to show it off makes you fall into a coma and die? Maybe you can impress people with your trophy at your funeral?~B~

We have trophys shaped like cups but you wouldn't want to drink out of it.

[N.S.M.8]

 

They are powerless Matoran Masks.  They could be worn, but they provide no more benefit than any other powerless mask.  

 

Do you really want to wear it and risk it breaking?

 

Where are you getting that from? I remember asking Greg some 20 questions about copper masks...

Copper masks are NOT powerless Matoran Masks. They are not even Kanohi. They are just some ceremonial thingy shaped like a mask. Just a trophy shaped like a mask. If a Matoran was in a coma and then they found a copper mask it would provide NO effect, because they are just, in power sense, junk.

 

 

I got it from BS01

 

 

Copper Masks of Victory are powerless Kanohi with ceremonial value.

If Greg changed this (it's possible), then we should change the BS01 page.

[fishers64]

Yarr, but standard Matoran Kanohi are considered powerless as well. 
 

2. in some descriptions i've read, it says the copper mask of victory is made of a special material that makes it more powerful, but you say matoran can't use mask power, so what's the point of making the masks stronger if the only beings who get them can's use mask powers?
 
2) It's not. Encyclopedia defines it as a "ceremonial mask," meaning it had no function other than symbolic, so why make it more powerful?
* * *
 
1.When Matoran get a Copper Mask of Victory, is it in the shape of their own mask, or just any mask?


2.What do they do with it? (Put it on, display it...)


3.Can Copper Masks of Victory be worn?
 
1) It's possible it is in the shape of their mask

2) Display it

3) Yes, but they don't wear them

 I think #3 may indicate that they could be used as Matoran Kanohi. 

3) What were the Copper Masks of Victory made out of? Copper?
 
3) Metallic protodermis

 
*waits for bullets*

[Boidoh]

Give me a second to rummage through LMB stuff.

 

Edit: I stand corrected then... _{I feel ashamed right now...}

I swear I remember asking that question... maybe I'm not looking hard enough..

Edited November 8, 2014 by Boidoh

[Pohatu: Uniter of Stone]

 

But making the masks not even function as normal ones seems odd. What good is a trophy if trying to show it off makes you fall into a coma and die? Maybe you can impress people with your trophy at your funeral?~B~

We have trophys shaped like cups but you wouldn't want to drink out of it.

 

+1 cookies for you. This is possibly the best argument in this topic- and it's totally true.

[Mallow Toa of Smashing]

It makes sense that the copper masks of victory don't actually function as kanohi. There isn't anything that says they were forged from kanoka discs, so they're probably just plates of metal pounded into mask shapes. If a matoran replaced his normal mask with a copper mask, he would eventually fall in to a coma or die, as if he weren't wearing a mask at all.

[Boidoh]

It makes sense that the copper masks of victory don't actually function as kanohi. There isn't anything that says they were forged from kanoka discs, so they're probably just plates of metal pounded into mask shapes. If a matoran replaced his normal mask with a copper mask, he would eventually fall in to a coma or die, as if he weren't wearing a mask at all.

This was my exact thought process the entire time.

[fishers64]

*looks on LMB* 

 

Here's one: https://community.lego.com/t5/LEGO-General/Chat-with-Greg-Farshtey/m-p/10689825/highlight/true#M246437

 

I also found this, but is hasn't been answered yet: https://community.lego.com/t5/LEGO-General/Chat-with-Greg-Farshtey/m-p/11644023/highlight/true#M257736

 

Anyway,  the quotes above say they are made out of metallic proto. Your average protosteel sword won't keep you conscious, methinks, even if you put it on your face.

 

But these are masks, which leaves the distinction odd.  

[Thormen]

I don't think functioning Kanohi would be given out. If I remember correctly, masks were not in production on Mata Nui.

That's true, but it's obvious copper masks were an exception to that rule. Whether copper masks are functioning Kanohi or not, we know they have to have been made on Mata Nui since they were made in the shape of a champion's Kanohi, and those champions only became champions after the competitions they played in already took place (on Mata Nui). I think the Matoran of Ta-Koro could've gotten some kind of furnace working to smelt metallic Protodermis and considering they had the creator of the Kanohi Vahi there to advise them, it wouldn't be too difficult to figure out how to create powerless Kanohi.

[Boidoh]

Where was it stated that they were made in the shape of the champion's mask? I'm curious... The only time I can recall copper masks being mentioned AT ALL in canon, is in the MoL movie when the announcer said something like "four time copper mask winners" or something like that.

 

Kanoka were not produced on Mata Nui. I don't even think there were Kanoka on Mata Nui. So no masks... If they were made of plain regular metallic protodermis, sure they could melt something up. Makes sense that the masks have no power. As in, zero, none. Not even functionality assistance as a power. None.

[N.S.M.8]

Where was it stated that they were made in the shape of the champion's mask? I'm curious... The only time I can recall copper masks being mentioned AT ALL in canon, is in the MoL movie when the announcer said something like "four time copper mask winners" or something like that.

 

Kanoka were not produced on Mata Nui. I don't even think there were Kanoka on Mata Nui. So no masks... If they were made of plain regular metallic protodermis, sure they could melt something up. Makes sense that the masks have no power. As in, zero, none. Not even functionality assistance as a power. None.

Let's tackle these in reverse order.

 

BS01 says:

 

 

On Metru Nui, masks were made from Kanoka.

This implies that Kanohi made elsewhere did not come from Kanoka.  BS01 also states:

 

 

The technology to develop Kanoka was first invented in the Ko-Metru Knowledge Towers around 4,000 years ago

Kanohi were in existence for FAR longer than that, further implying that Kanoka are not required.

 

Kanoka ARE just chunks of purified metallic protodermis, so I'm pretty sure any piece of (protodermic) metal magnetically attachached to a Moatoran's face would prevent them from falling into a coma.

 

And there WERE a few Kanoka on Mata Nui, but they lost their powers.  BS01 says:

 

 

Some Kanoka were originally brought to Mata Nui with the Matoran, but, as Kanoka wear out with repeated use, they became powerless over the years. Later, the Matoran made replicas of Kanoka out of Bamboo, but they were powerless and could only be used to strike things.

For the last (first?) point, about them not being mentioned outside of "Mask of Light"

I believe they were in the GBA game from 2001.

[Tuuli]

Copper masks are NOT copper, they are masks forged in a copper color, and are made of metallic protodermis. Matoran could wear them, but as stated above, that would not be practical. You could say they are "copper protodermis" if that was even a thing.

[Ford]

I don't think that the copper masks would have mask powers, or even function as masks to wear. They are more like trophies.

I mean, what if a copper mask was made to look like a Legendary Kanohi such as the mask of Life? You can't really make that have powers unless you actually make that Kanohi like the Great Beings did, so it would be powerless, but still look like the original with a copper coloring.

[believe victims]

 

 

But making the masks not even function as normal ones seems odd. What good is a trophy if trying to show it off makes you fall into a coma and die? Maybe you can impress people with your trophy at your funeral?~B~

We have trophys shaped like cups but you wouldn't want to drink out of it.

 

+1 cookies for you. This is possibly the best argument in this topic- and it's totally true.

 

not necessarily. I would totally drink out of a cup-shaped trophy.

[Boidoh]

Then you have no respect for trophies...

[Tuuli]

Also, masks WERE in production on mata-nui, from molten protodermis to create powerless masks. Many matoran needed mask replacements after time in matoran spheres, and all their battles on mata-nui. They needed more masks and I think they can also repair them.

[Ballom Nom Nom]

Then you have no respect for trophies...

But if you wished you could still drink out of one without risk. Swapping out your life support for a useless trinket is decidedly more hazardous.

 

~B~

[bonesiii]

Also, masks WERE in production on mata-nui, from molten protodermis to create powerless masks. Many matoran needed mask replacements after time in matoran spheres, and all their battles on mata-nui. They needed more masks and I think they can also repair them.

I'm 95% sure Greg said no they weren't. At least this has been common knowledge on here for a long time. The replacements were brought on the airships.

 

(But Copper Masks might have been too.)

[UnderscoreChronix]

They're just powerless masks.

[Banana Gunz]

I understand (and understood) that the copper masks were powerless, but from what I've read I don't see why they can't be worn by a matoran. Whether matoran choose to "wear their trophies" or not is up to them, but I'm wondering whether they can physically worn. They're still made of metallic protodermis, they fit like masks, and such, so can they stop a matoran from going into a coma?

[believe victims]

Then you have no respect for trophies...

or maybe i respect them enough to put them to use instead of leaving them to gather dust on a shelf

 

which is TRUE respect?

 

food for thought

[Iblis]

I understand (and understood) that the copper masks were powerless, but from what I've read I don't see why they can't be worn by a matoran. Whether matoran choose to "wear their trophies" or not is up to them, but I'm wondering whether they can physically worn. They're still made of metallic protodermis, they fit like masks, and such, so can they stop a matoran from going into a coma?

 

...Maybe for a mask to do anything at all the Protodermis needs to have certain things done to it?

I mean we've seen a variety of apparently different things which are all protodermis in different states, so I would assume that Masks require some other process to actually keep a Matoran conscious, so regardless of how Masks have been made I would suggest Kanoka Discs have gone through a process which makes their particular 'type'/'state' of protodermis useful.

 

I really don't get what is so strange about there being protodermis masks which don't function as Masks since protodermis has been shown any many occasions to have different (magical) properties based on different (mostly unknown) scenarios...

 

It's a very soft-science fantasy setting; but this doesn't strike me as inconsistent, I get wondering what makes it different but it just looks silly to me to ignore the aforementioned sources; they won't keep a Matoran conscious by themself.

 

What I wonder is whether they would 'magnetically' stick to a Matoran's face ^{but I think that's already been brought up somewhere & I've missed it...}

^{*starts searching frantically*}

[fishers64]

GregF said they could be worn...so they could be worn. (Plus also, copper is a metal, which would stick to a magnetic surface, I think.)

[bonesiii]

What I wonder is whether they would 'magnetically' stick to a Matoran's face

It's apparently something on their faces that is magnetic, not the masks, so as long as it's a magnetic metal, should work.

 

I think what the people who are having a problem with the mask being worn may be forgetting is that there is evidently no difference in performance (of the coma-prevention ability) of Matoran masks between power levels 1-6. Those power levels work by purification. Even though the power itself is drained, the purification amount remains presumably. This means some Matoran masks are more just plain metal than others, apparently. Yet they all work the same.

 

So, it stands to reason that one that has no degree of purity at all but is just metal should work.

 

As to how that keeps them conscious, it could just be a function of protodermis itself, or of their own design.

 

About why none of them go around wearing them, IMO it would probably seem like a "poor winner". Put yourself in others' shoes (foot armor ) and think about how that would seem to you, if the tradition was not to wear them, for one person to suddenly go around wearing one. It would seem like simultaneously an act of (minor) rebellion against the community, and an implied statement of superiority over the other individuals. Likely nobody wants to be seen that way, methinks.

[Mallow Toa of Smashing]

 

Where was it stated that they were made in the shape of the champion's mask? I'm curious... The only time I can recall copper masks being mentioned AT ALL in canon, is in the MoL movie when the announcer said something like "four time copper mask winners" or something like that.

 

Kanoka were not produced on Mata Nui. I don't even think there were Kanoka on Mata Nui. So no masks... If they were made of plain regular metallic protodermis, sure they could melt something up. Makes sense that the masks have no power. As in, zero, none. Not even functionality assistance as a power. None.

Let's tackle these in reverse order.

 

BS01 says:

 

 

On Metru Nui, masks were made from Kanoka.

This implies that Kanohi made elsewhere did not come from Kanoka.  BS01 also states:

 

 

The technology to develop Kanoka was first invented in the Ko-Metru Knowledge Towers around 4,000 years ago

Kanohi were in existence for FAR longer than that, further implying that Kanoka are not required.

 

Kanoka ARE just chunks of purified metallic protodermis, so I'm pretty sure any piece of (protodermic) metal magnetically attachached to a Moatoran's face would prevent them from falling into a coma.

 

And there WERE a few Kanoka on Mata Nui, but they lost their powers.  BS01 says:

 

 

Some Kanoka were originally brought to Mata Nui with the Matoran, but, as Kanoka wear out with repeated use, they became powerless over the years. Later, the Matoran made replicas of Kanoka out of Bamboo, but they were powerless and could only be used to strike things.

For the last (first?) point, about them not being mentioned outside of "Mask of Light"

I believe they were in the GBA game from 2001.

 

 

Wow, I stand corrected. Well done on this research sir.

[Thormen]

Where was it stated that they were made in the shape of the champion's mask? I'm curious... The only time I can recall copper masks being mentioned AT ALL in canon, is in the MoL movie when the announcer said something like "four time copper mask winners" or something like that.

I was basing that on an answer from Greg Fishers quoted above, but the answer is pretty vague so I guess a bit of skepticism is in order:

 

1.When Matoran get a Copper Mask of Victory, is it in the shape of their own mask, or just any mask?

 

1) It's possible it is in the shape of their mask

Still, I think the idea of the Toa Metru specifically taking a whole load of Copper Masks with them in their Airships is a little unlikely. Even if they coincidentally picked an Airship that just happened to be loaded with Copper Masks, they wouldv'e most likely cleaned it out to open up as much space as possible for Matoran pods and supplies that were actually useful.

 

Kanoka were not produced on Mata Nui. I don't even think there were Kanoka on Mata Nui. So no masks... If they were made of plain regular metallic protodermis, sure they could melt something up. Makes sense that the masks have no power. As in, zero, none. Not even functionality assistance as a power. None.

Yeah, that's the thing: Greg said Copper Masks could be worn, but that is still pretty vague. Does it mean the Copper Mask will keep the Matoran conscious (like a Matoran Kanohi) or does it simply mean the Copper Mask will stick to the Matoran's face but not do anything (like junk)? It might be worth asking Greg for clarification.

 

Kanoka ARE just chunks of purified metallic protodermis, so I'm pretty sure any piece of (protodermic) metal magnetically attachached to a Moatoran's face would prevent them from falling into a coma.

That can't be true: a Matoran Kanohi can't simply be a scrap of metallic Protodermis in the shape of a Kanohi, that would lead to multiple problems with the way Matoran Kanohi function. For one, there are different kinds of Matoran Kanohi (Hau, Akaku etc.) and while they may all be powerless in their Matoran form, these Kanohi can be transformed into their respective Great Kanohi WITH powers. If a Matoran Hau is simply a scrap of metallic Protodermis in the shape of a Hau, then logically there is no difference between a (properly shaped) Matoran Hau and a Matoran Akaku in the shape of a Hau (and we know the latter are a possibility, the Kanohi shapes are just labels to distinguish between the powers). However, when a Matoran turns into a Toa, the process that makes it work needs to 'know' what kind of Kanohi the Matoran is wearing, therefore there must be something of a 'Hau essence' within a Matoran Hau.

 

Another problem is that Matoran Kanohi need to be able to keep Matoran conscious. If a Matoran Kanohi is just a piece of metallic Protodermis in the shape of a Kanohi, then the thing that keeps the Matoran conscious is either (a) the metallic Protodermis, (b) the specific shape, or © a combination of (a) and (b). However, as I said earlier we know the shapes are just labels to distinguish the different Kanohi from one another, so (b) and © are ruled out. A Matoran Kanohi can have any shape the Mask Maker chooses to smelt the Kanohi into, even the shape of a random piece of metallic Protodermic trash laying on the ground. However, if the Matoran Kanohi is just metallic Protodermis in the shape of a Kanohi, then there is no difference between a Matoran Kanohi shaped like a piece of metallic Protodermic trash, and a piece of metallic Protodermic trash itself. That would mean that a Matoran could pick up any piece of metallic Protodermic trash from the floor and wear it as a Kanohi.

 

A third problem is that we know specific Kanohi are made of specific Kanoka. And we know Kanoka must be more than just a piece of metallic Protodermis since there are a couple of varieties of them that all have the same shape. The different Kanohi each have different 'recipes', so we know that what the Kanoka contribute to the creation of the Kanohi must be MORE than just the metallic Protodermis they are made of, otherwise there would be no problem creating a Matoran Hau from the recipe needed for an Akaku. That means some of that Kanoka essence must be carried over into the Kanohi.

 

I could probably think up more problems with this idea if needed, but I think the above three problems already prove that a Matoran Kanohi is more than just a scrap of metallic Protodermis. And that's exactly where there MIGHT be a difference with Copper Masks, although we don't know that for sure.

[Zeb]

 

Where was it stated that they were made in the shape of the champion's mask? I'm curious... The only time I can recall copper masks being mentioned AT ALL in canon, is in the MoL movie when the announcer said something like "four time copper mask winners" or something like that.

I was basing that on an answer from Greg Fishers quoted above, but the answer is pretty vague so I guess a bit of skepticism is in order:

 

1.When Matoran get a Copper Mask of Victory, is it in the shape of their own mask, or just any mask?

 

1) It's possible it is in the shape of their mask

Still, I think the idea of the Toa Metru specifically taking a whole load of Copper Masks with them in their Airships is a little unlikely. Even if they coincidentally picked an Airship that just happened to be loaded with Copper Masks, they wouldv'e most likely cleaned it out to open up as much space as possible for Matoran pods and supplies that were actually useful.

 

Kanoka were not produced on Mata Nui. I don't even think there were Kanoka on Mata Nui. So no masks... If they were made of plain regular metallic protodermis, sure they could melt something up. Makes sense that the masks have no power. As in, zero, none. Not even functionality assistance as a power. None.

Yeah, that's the thing: Greg said Copper Masks could be worn, but that is still pretty vague. Does it mean the Copper Mask will keep the Matoran conscious (like a Matoran Kanohi) or does it simply mean the Copper Mask will stick to the Matoran's face but not do anything (like junk)? It might be worth asking Greg for clarification.

 

Kanoka ARE just chunks of purified metallic protodermis, so I'm pretty sure any piece of (protodermic) metal magnetically attachached to a Moatoran's face would prevent them from falling into a coma.

That can't be true: a Matoran Kanohi can't simply be a scrap of metallic Protodermis in the shape of a Kanohi, that would lead to multiple problems with the way Matoran Kanohi function. For one, there are different kinds of Matoran Kanohi (Hau, Akaku etc.) and while they may all be powerless in their Matoran form, these Kanohi can be transformed into their respective Great Kanohi WITH powers. If a Matoran Hau is simply a scrap of metallic Protodermis in the shape of a Hau, then logically there is no difference between a (properly shaped) Matoran Hau and a Matoran Akaku in the shape of a Hau (and we know the latter are a possibility, the Kanohi shapes are just labels to distinguish between the powers). However, when a Matoran turns into a Toa, the process that makes it work needs to 'know' what kind of Kanohi the Matoran is wearing, therefore there must be something of a 'Hau essence' within a Matoran Hau.

 

Another problem is that Matoran Kanohi need to be able to keep Matoran conscious. If a Matoran Kanohi is just a piece of metallic Protodermis in the shape of a Kanohi, then the thing that keeps the Matoran conscious is either (a) the metallic Protodermis, (b) the specific shape, or © a combination of (a) and (b). However, as I said earlier we know the shapes are just labels to distinguish the different Kanohi from one another, so (b) and © are ruled out. A Matoran Kanohi can have any shape the Mask Maker chooses to smelt the Kanohi into, even the shape of a random piece of metallic Protodermic trash laying on the ground. However, if the Matoran Kanohi is just metallic Protodermis in the shape of a Kanohi, then there is no difference between a Matoran Kanohi shaped like a piece of metallic Protodermic trash, and a piece of metallic Protodermic trash itself. That would mean that a Matoran could pick up any piece of metallic Protodermic trash from the floor and wear it as a Kanohi.

 

A third problem is that we know specific Kanohi are made of specific Kanoka. And we know Kanoka must be more than just a piece of metallic Protodermis since there are a couple of varieties of them that all have the same shape. The different Kanohi each have different 'recipes', so we know that what the Kanoka contribute to the creation of the Kanohi must be MORE than just the metallic Protodermis they are made of, otherwise there would be no problem creating a Matoran Hau from the recipe needed for an Akaku. That means some of that Kanoka essence must be carried over into the Kanohi.

 

I could probably think up more problems with this idea if needed, but I think the above three problems already prove that a Matoran Kanohi is more than just a scrap of metallic Protodermis. And that's exactly where there MIGHT be a difference with Copper Masks, although we don't know that for sure.

 

You don't need Kanoka to make an Akaku, do you? Just the right types of Protodermis with the right powers. Hang on... what determines the power of a Kanoka, anyway? Does Protodermis have no Kanoka power until it cools down? Is it random? Is one batch of molten Protodermis any different from another batch? Theoretically, you could make any kind of mask without Kanoka (excluding Legendary masks), but you probably wouldn't know what power it has until you try it out. I guess Matoran find out what a Kanoka does by testing it? Does all purified metallic Protodermis have Kanoka powers?

[bonesiii]

Still, I think the idea of the Toa Metru specifically taking a whole load of Copper Masks with them in their Airships is a little unlikely. Even if they coincidentally picked an Airship that just happened to be loaded with Copper Masks, they wouldv'e most likely cleaned it out to open up as much space as possible for Matoran pods and supplies that were actually useful.

Except they built those airships, so nothing was sitting around in them -- and above quotes apparently show that if they ran out of normal replacements, Copper Masks would suffice (in that case the Turaga would announce an exception to the tradition of not wearing them and it wouldn't be seen as boastful -- and if things got bad enough they would probably be canceling sports competitions anyways to build forges to make replacement masks or something).

 

So, most likely there were just some Copper Masks among the other extra masks in Metru Nui, and the entire collection of masks that they were able to find fit, or they didn't have time to sort them out or whatever.

 

Yeah, that's the thing: Greg said Copper Masks could be worn, but that is still pretty vague. Does it mean the Copper Mask will keep the Matoran conscious (like a Matoran Kanohi) or does it simply mean the Copper Mask will stick to the Matoran's face but not do anything (like junk)? It might be worth asking Greg for clarification.

Saying a Matoran can wear a mask is basically synonymous with saying it keeps them conscious. Otherwise you'd think he'd just say something like "I suppose they could wear them for a few seconds as long as they swapped back to their normal mask quickly" or "they could wear it over their normal mask" or suchnot.

 

But might be okay to ask him. In this case the original quote is short enough might be best to quote it for him.

 

That would mean that a Matoran could pick up any piece of metallic Protodermic trash from the floor and wear it as a Kanohi.

I'm not sure from your wording, but are you saying this is a problem?

 

First of all, a crack will render a mask useless, so it might not be that simple. There might be some kind of treatment they must undergo (other than purification), that Copper Masks do and random scrap doesn't.

 

Second, even if this is so, my above reasoning about there being no difference between how conscious a Matoran masks made from level 6 keeps you, versus level 1, seems to show that level 0 should work too.

 

Although, another possibility is that these ARE level 1 masks, and conscious-level simply requires level 1 purity (and anything above it is superfluous), and the impurities in these cases happen to all be whatever masks proto behave as copper.

 

But if it IS level 0 and it means some random scrap metal would keep them conscious... so be it. That doesn't have to be a problem.

 

You don't need Kanoka to make an Akaku, do you? Just the right types of Protodermis with the right powers.

Correct.

 

Hang on... what determines the power of a Kanoka, anyway?

When a batch is purified, it naturally sets (apparently randomly) as one of the eight basic proto powers (the powers used as the main Kanoka powers in 2004). Then mixing these in various formulas transforms the powers in predictable ways to make Hau power or Akaku or whatever. You could theoretically do the mixing before or after making Kanoka, but in "modern" Metru Nui they mixed after making Kanoka, probably so that botched batches (yeah, pun intentional sorry ) could be rejected before investing a lot of material mixing.

 

Does Protodermis have no Kanoka power until it cools down?

Methinks we don't know.

 

Theoretically, you could make any kind of mask without Kanoka (excluding Legendary masks), but you probably wouldn't know what power it has until you try it out.

There has to be a way to know that, though, so replacement Noble and Great masks could be made with the right shape-labels prior to the invention of Kanoka (and Matoran-level too, assuming the theory is right that Toa transformations don't change the mask power automatically).

 

Perhaps there's just a power of "power sensing" out there somewhere. Or maybe they could do what they do with Kanoka, and the main innovation for those was the frisbee shape.: Or maybe instead of impact activation (I tend to think that was new to Kanoka, since Ancient's (I think it was him) boots use that ability and were inspired by Kanoka), you would have to pump some energy into it from a wire or something to test the power. :shrugs

 

Does all purified metallic Protodermis have Kanoka powers?

Unless other powers were already mixed.

Edited November 11, 2014 by bonesiii

[Zeb]

 

Still, I think the idea of the Toa Metru specifically taking a whole load of Copper Masks with them in their Airships is a little unlikely. Even if they coincidentally picked an Airship that just happened to be loaded with Copper Masks, they wouldv'e most likely cleaned it out to open up as much space as possible for Matoran pods and supplies that were actually useful.

Except they built those airships, so nothing was sitting around in them -- and above quotes apparently show that if they ran out of normal replacements, Copper Masks would suffice (in that case the Turaga would announce an exception to the tradition of not wearing them and it wouldn't be seen as boastful -- and if things got bad enough they would probably be canceling sports competitions anyways to build forges to make replacement masks or something).

 

So, most likely there were just some Copper Masks among the other extra masks in Metru Nui, and the entire collection of masks that they were able to find fit, or they didn't have time to sort them out or whatever.

 

Yeah, that's the thing: Greg said Copper Masks could be worn, but that is still pretty vague. Does it mean the Copper Mask will keep the Matoran conscious (like a Matoran Kanohi) or does it simply mean the Copper Mask will stick to the Matoran's face but not do anything (like junk)? It might be worth asking Greg for clarification.

Saying a Matoran can wear a mask is basically synonymous with saying it keeps them conscious. Otherwise you'd think he'd just say something like "I suppose they could wear them for a few seconds as long as they swapped back to their normal mask quickly" or "they could wear it over their normal mask" or suchnot.

 

But might be okay to ask him. In this case the original quote is short enough might be best to quote it for him.

 

That would mean that a Matoran could pick up any piece of metallic Protodermic trash from the floor and wear it as a Kanohi.

I'm not sure from your wording, but are you saying this is a problem?

 

First of all, a crack will render a mask useless, so it might not be that simple. There might be some kind of treatment they must undergo (other than purification), that Copper Masks do and random scrap doesn't.

 

Second, even if this is so, my above reasoning about there being no difference between how conscious a Matoran masks made from level 6 keeps you, versus level 1, seems to show that level 0 should work too.

 

Although, another possibility is that these ARE level 1 masks, and conscious-level simply requires level 1 purity (and anything above it is superfluous), and the impurities in these cases happen to all be whatever masks proto behave as copper.

 

But if it IS level 0 and it means some random scrap metal would keep them conscious... so be it. That doesn't have to be a problem.

 

You don't need Kanoka to make an Akaku, do you? Just the right types of Protodermis with the right powers.

Correct.

 

Hang on... what determines the power of a Kanoka, anyway?

When a batch is purified, it naturally sets (apparently randomly) as one of the eight basic proto powers (the powers used as the main Kanoka powers in 2004). Then mixing these in various formulas transforms the powers in predictable ways to make Hau power or Akaku or whatever. You could theoretically do the mixing before or after making Kanoka, but in "modern" Metru Nui they mixed after making Kanoka, probably so that botched batches (yeah, pun intentional sorry ) could be rejected before investing a lot of material mixing.

 

Does Protodermis have no Kanoka power until it cools down?

Methinks we don't know.

 

Theoretically, you could make any kind of mask without Kanoka (excluding Legendary masks), but you probably wouldn't know what power it has until you try it out.

There has to be a way to know that, though, so replacement Noble and Great masks could be made with the right shape-labels prior to the invention of Kanoka (and Matoran-level too, assuming the theory is right that Toa transformations don't change the mask power automatically).

 

Perhaps there's just a power of "power sensing" out there somewhere. Or maybe they could do what they do with Kanoka, and the main innovation for those was the frisbee shape.: Or maybe instead of impact activation (I tend to think that was new to Kanoka, since Ancient's (I think it was him) boots use that ability and were inspired by Kanoka), you would have to pump some energy into it from a wire or something to test the power. :shrugs

 

Does all purified metallic Protodermis have Kanoka powers?

Unless other powers were already mixed.

 

Wow, that was helpful. Thanks!

[Thormen]

You don't need Kanoka to make an Akaku, do you? Just the right types of Protodermis with the right powers.

Right, but the key phrase here is with the right powers. It's not just a scrap of metal, there is something extra that defines these powers.

 

So, most likely there were just some Copper Masks among the other extra masks in Metru Nui, and the entire collection of masks that they were able to find fit, or they didn't have time to sort them out or whatever.

True, assuming Copper Masks can be used to keep a Matoran conscious and they were not made on Mata Nui, that is the most likely explanation IMO. My problem is with Greg's quote about the Copper Masks being in the shape of the champion's Kanohi:

 

1.When Matoran get a Copper Mask of Victory, is it in the shape of their own mask, or just any mask?

 

1) It's possible it is in the shape of their mask

I wonder what you make of this quote? To me this implies that Copper Masks were made when the game was played and the creators could make the mask in the shape of the champion's Kanohi, but it's very vague. However, I also think the idea that Copper Masks keep a Matoran conscious is only vaguely implied from Greg's quote: I don't think he would feel the need to write the caveat "but they won't stay conscious wearing a Copper Mask" when he already wrote another caveat "but they don't". Might be somewhat less vague than the implication I was going for, but I think we've got multiple issues here that only get solved if we ask Greg.

 

 

That would mean that a Matoran could pick up any piece of metallic Protodermic trash from the floor and wear it as a Kanohi.

I'm not sure from your wording, but are you saying this is a problem?

 

To me that seems like a problem, I have never seen Matoran do that in the storyline and I thought the whole idea of Matoran wearing Kanohi masks meant they needed Kanohi masks specifically. You point out that a scratch renders the mask useless, that basically proves that one cannot use just any scrap of metallic Protodermis one finds, since a scratched Kanohi mask is a scrap of metallic Protodermis.