Ga-Metru Schools: Why?

[Ford]

According to BS01, the schools in Ga-Metru functioned to teach history, science, language, and diplomacy. What I do not understand is why there were even schools in the first place. for example, if the Matoran were already programmed to know their own language, why would they need to go to school for it? Also, if the Matoran can live forever (unless they go to the Red Star), why would they need history if they have lived it?

Also, what would be taught in the science and diplomacy aspects of the educational process, what would each of those constitute? My guesses are Matoran Anatomy (or Rahi anatomy, to be less disgusting) and Leadership skills, respectively. 

[Wrinkledlion X]

Gotta have skills. What are you gonna do if you wanna be an accountant? You can't just put on your number-crunching mask and get to work, you gotta be certified. 

Edited November 9, 2014 by Wrinkledlion X

[Irrie]

Well, I don't see why some Matoran can't be forgetful. Maybe if they were in a different place when an event happened, they could learn about it again in a history class. 

[Ford]

Gotta have skills. What are you gonna do if you wanna be an accountant? You can't just put on your number-crunching mask and get to work, you gotta be certified. 

There are Matoran accountants? I thought that all the Matoran did something that would directly manage the functioning of the Mata Nui robot...

 

Well, I don't see why some Matoran can't be forgetful. Maybe if they were in a different place when an event happened, they could learn about it again in a history class. 

 

My thoughts exactly.

[Boidoh]

I think in their science class they studied the properties of protodermis. I forgot where I read that.

[TheSkeletonMan939]

The pursuit of knowledge, of course. Some Matoran in Metru Nui got sick of having boring jobs all day and wanted something more engaging to work on, so they chose become scientists or historians or whatever. And you can't learn how to do all that without going to school.

[Banana Gunz]

Considering matoran can't make children, eventually they'd learn everything they need to know and there would be no need to teach anymore (except for the point mentioned that they might forget...).

[Zidonaro]

History: I believe this discipline teaches the history of the MU in general, its importants places etc, they wouldn't need to know Metru Nui History because you know, they were in the city for like, forever. I think.

Science: Gotta study protodermis 'n stuff

Languages: If I'm not mistaken, there are various old ancient languages in the MU. And other species uses other languages, like the Skakdi.

Diplomacy: Gotta make business with other Islands 'n stuff.

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

Also a lot of them were experimenting with how to recreate Energized Protodermis. That's got to be school (at least lab) worthy.

 

-NotS

[Rider Of Spiders]

My headcanon is that the Ga-Matoran were subconsciously processing the information GSR gathered from the cultures and planets it studied, Metru Nui being the brain and all.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Rider Of Spiders

[Toa Jaxus]

My headcanon is that the Ga-Matoran were subconsciously processing the information GSR gathered from the cultures and planets it studied, Metru Nui being the brain and all.

That would actually make sense. My theory was it was just like the philosophers of Ancient Greece, coming up with new ideas an thoughts  on the world, but them acting as Mata Nui's brain does make more sense.

[Vartemp]

In my headcanon, they were established after the Matoran gained sapience and someone said, "I want to learn more about the universe since its creation."

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

Oops, you've discovered a plot hole!

 

many such anomalies arose when it was revealed matoran could basically live forever and didn't produce offspring, and the canon hasn't bothered to patch most of them up.

[Axilus Prime]

Oops, you've discovered a plot hole!

 

many such anomalies arose when it was revealed matoran could basically live forever and didn't produce offspring, and the canon hasn't bothered to patch most of them up.

A little fast to jump to that conclusion, don't you think?

 

No. Schools were probably a result of the Ga-Matoran's respect for knowledge and wisdom. The Matoran knew what they needed to in order to do their jobs, yes, but to deal with anything not directly related to work, or to do their jobs better, they must learn.

 

The Matoran weren't always sentient, they gained that trait. So, the only possible conclusion is that the schools were created after that.

[bonesiii]

The Matoran weren't always sentient, they gained that trait. So, the only possible conclusion is that the schools were created after that.

[Emphasis mine] What? You don't think the basic idea of Matoran as imaginative repair workers is already consistent with putting a special emphasis on knowledge and learning and review?

[J46 Nui]

Something that every one has failed to mention is that even though Matoran can live for very long times, they were all not created at the same time. In fact, I believe it is mentioned in Bionicle World that new Matoran started to be created again once everyone moved back to Metru Nui. So yes, there are younger generations of Matoran that would need to be taught the history that they did not live.

 

Also, everyone gets amnesia all the time in the MU. Some people may have to relearn things.

[fishers64]

 

The Matoran weren't always sentient, they gained that trait. So, the only possible conclusion is that the schools were created after that.

[Emphasis mine] What? You don't think the basic idea of Matoran as imaginative repair workers is already consistent with putting a special emphasis on knowledge and learning and review?

Um, special emphasis? I mean, once they know what they are to repair and the 100,000+ plus ways it can break...

 

Wait...

 

Also, everyone gets amnesia all the time in the MU. Some people may have to relearn things.

I fail to understand how two instances of amnesia (the Time Slip and Makuta's takeover respectively) qualify as "everyone gets amnesia all the time."

[Axilus Prime]

 

The Matoran weren't always sentient, they gained that trait. So, the only possible conclusion is that the schools were created after that.

[Emphasis mine] What? You don't think the basic idea of Matoran as imaginative repair workers is already consistent with putting a special emphasis on knowledge and learning and review?

 

Uh...can you rephrase that? I don't entirely get what you mean.

 

Oh, and next time you quote me, leave the name and timestamp please. That way I get a notification.

[bonesiii]

Uh...can you rephrase that? I don't entirely get what you mean.

I'm just trying to understand how you arrive at the conclusion that, if I read you right, the schools could only possibly have been formed after the sapience modification. (You said sentience, too, I just noticed, but ask if you aren't aware of the technicalities on that; I'll presume it was just shorthand/habit. If only because I'm short on time right now, heh.) It seems to me they do fit the "mandate" of the Matoran, and the Great Beings probably assigned the six Metru's main jobs from the start.

 

Oh, and next time you quote me, leave the name and timestamp please. That way I get a notification.

Not sure what you mean here, but it's much more efficient to grab the text being replied to specifically, and I don't have a lot of time to add extra code, so as a rule I don't. (And if I were to try, as an exception for somebody, you can bet I'd forget. ) Also not sure what you mean about a notification; is there a newish feature I've somehow missed? If you have replied in a topic and somebody else posts in it, it should show up as such in various ways (like the New Content tab), regardless of the content of the new posts. As far as I'm aware, there shouldn't be any reason people should need to include those extra things. Unless we're quoting the whole post, which works sometimes, it's just a headache to bother with that.

 

 

fishers, not sure what you mean.

[Regitnui]

History, science, language and diplomacy. None of those are something neeed for basic repair 'bots. And before people object:

 

1) Adeptus Mechanicus from Warhammer 40K and the Covenant from Halo. Neither knows the history of their technology, only how to maintain it. In fact, the former has forgotten most of its history.

 

2) Again, the two examples above don't understand the principles behind their tech and cannot reapply it in different ways. They can only fix what they have.

 

3) Anyone who wants to say speaking a language is the same as understanding it, leave now. I'm doing a degree in English, and so (should) have a greater understanding of it than a repairman. I can use and understand the word sussurrus, for example, whereas a repairman would use 'rushing sound'.

 

4) diplomacy is not locking people you don't agree with into the archives. It is dealing peacefully with different cultures, so Metru Matoran would have to use diplomacy with Nynrah or Continental Matoran. Culture only happens if you're not monolithic repairmen.

[fishers64]

I was referring to the fact that they are "imaginative repair workers". I'm trying to understand how you went from that to "special emphasis on knowledge and learning and review". For some reason, that doesn't quite connect. I'd think if they were repairing/maintaining something, the process would be rather simple, easy to learn, and unlikely to need a bunch of specialized training and study.

 

Now obviously Metru Nui got a lot more advanced than simple repair jobs, up to the point where specialized training would be needed. But wouldn't the advancement happen after sapience?

 

Off topic: 

 

 

Oh, and next time you quote me, leave the name and timestamp please. That way I get a notification.

Not sure what you mean here, but it's much more efficient to grab the text being replied to specifically, and I don't have a lot of time to add extra code, so as a rule I don't. (And if I were to try, as an exception for somebody, you can bet I'd forget. ) Also not sure what you mean about a notification; is there a newish feature I've somehow missed? If you have replied in a topic and somebody else posts in it, it should show up as such in various ways (like the New Content tab), regardless of the content of the new posts. As far as I'm aware, there shouldn't be any reason people should need to include those extra things. Unless we're quoting the whole post, which works sometimes, it's just a headache to bother with that.

I just quoted you the way he wants you to quote him. I just hit the quote button on the bottom of your post and kicked out the text I didn't want to emphasize. 

 

This gives notifications to people - most of our profiles are set to notify us when we are quoted in this manner. It's in the notification settings, and I'm pretty sure it's enabled by default. I think you know this, but there's a notifications icon just to the left of your name, and it lights up with red numbers when you get them. If you click on the icon, should show you a list. 

 

TBH I'm surprised you don't know about notifications. You're subscribed to every topic you've posted in on here, so your notification count would logically be in the hundreds daily. (Sorry if that confuses you more.) Unless you have them totally disabled, which in my imagination makes sense - I think they would drive you up the wall. But some of us young whipper-snappers do use them. 

 

Anyway, I do agree that your style is easier to post, especially for long posts. To do the equivalent in what I just did, you would have to quote the whole post using the button, kick out what you don't want to respond to, and break it into pieces in BBCode mode. I do that with my posts all the time, but that's because I've gotten into the habit so much that I don't even think about it any more. (Not that you should do it if you don't want to.)

 

Anyway, sorry if this is more confusing, but trying to explain...

[bonesiii]

History, science, language and diplomacy. None of those are something neeed for basic repair 'bots.

It gets complicated here, but cases can be made against each of the parts of this claim:

 

2) Science -- although Matoran science is limited, having at least one group continually devoted to it is surely good practice for if an unexpected problem does occur and Matoran must be brought in, perhaps under a vow of secrecy, to study the problem and come up with a solution.

 

4) Diplomacy would probably not be the right word prior to full sapience, but something like it; the study of efficient communication and persuasion of other repair bots of better solutions, would make sense.

 

3) Language, well, let's pass on this one since I don't know if there were to be other languages at all, and they all apparently learn Matoran upon spawning.

 

1) History of repair events could be relevant within their own cities' tech. And everything is interconnected; understanding a successful "diplomatic" event could teach a lesson that could apply as an analogy to repair work.

 

 

I was referring to the fact that they are "imaginative repair workers". I'm trying to understand how you went from that to "special emphasis on knowledge and learning and review".

Simple -- imagination needs fuel, and that is knowledge.

 

I'd think if they were repairing/maintaining something, the process would be rather simple, easy to learn, and unlikely to need a bunch of specialized training and study.

That seems... highly unlikely. I don't see Scotty in Star Trek being portrayed as a guy whose job was simple and easy to learn and unlikely to need imaginative solutions to unexpected problems, yanno? Add to that that the Matoran don't even know what it is they're indirectly, somehow, maintaining, and they could be called on for emergency repairs of some highly advanced machinery at any time. Keeping them imaginative and knowledgeable and not letting the monotony of normal city-maintenance work gradually erase those skills in memory would be highly important methinks.

At the very least I don't think we could say this is impossible so that schooling has to start after Velika gave them full sapience...

 

 

 

Off-topic: So you're saying there's a type of notification that searches for your member name in a post's content? I'm aware of the old topic tracker, which would alert you if any post is added to a topic, but not of one that specifies content. In any event, personally the New Content page is much easier. I won't rule out adding them in the future, but it's a hassle, and to me if you have posted in a topic, you probably either want to read every post in a topic or have lost interest in the topic anyways. You can't rely on people even quoting at all; lots of people reply without a quote. It would add unnecessary clutter to always include them.

Edited November 15, 2014 by bonesiii

[Iblis]

...I don't think much about the Mata Nui Robot makes sense unless you assume that the Great Beings always intended for sapience/sentience to occur; as for things propping up that seem strange given the life-spans, well long term research, maintenance, & a variety of other things mostly aforementioned in this thread.

 

_{Suspension of disbelief usually fails at certain points & the Ga-Metru Schools seem like one of the things that would have occurred with something else earlier or being accepted until something later; it seems a strange query given this because if it was any of the other things that this was paired with: then ultimately this question is one of 'needing' an answer &/or the answers are already predicted; just deemed unsatisfying. Which would all be fine, as well as pretty much anything else... but... odd question.}

[Zidonaro]

3) Language, well, let's pass on this one since I don't know if there were to be other languages at all, and they all apparently learn Matoran upon spawning.

 

There are various ancient languages in the MU and some species have own languages that might interest other Matoran.

[fishers64]

 

I'd think if they were repairing/maintaining something, the process would be rather simple, easy to learn, and unlikely to need a bunch of specialized training and study.

That seems... highly unlikely. I don't see Scotty in Star Trek being portrayed as a guy whose job was simple and easy to learn and unlikely to need imaginative solutions to unexpected problems, yanno? Add to that that the Matoran don't even know what it is they're indirectly, somehow, maintaining, and they could be called on for emergency repairs of some highly advanced machinery at any time. Keeping them imaginative and knowledgeable and not letting the monotony of normal city-maintenance work gradually erase those skills in memory would be highly important methinks.

At the very least I don't think we could say this is impossible so that schooling has to start after Velika gave them full sapience...

 

For some reason I have trouble seeing them all as Scotty from Star Trek. He was one guy maintaining a big machine, versus thousands of little guys maintaining a big machine. Therefore the "knowledge of Scotty", so to speak, would be spread out over thousands of minds. I'm thinking that could be programmed in without some schooling.

 

In any event, I agree that impossible is probably a stretch. I'm just saying it's possible that it developed after.  

 

Off topic:

 

Off-topic: So you're saying there's a type of notification that searches for your member name in a post's content?

No, it's probably linked to the quote buttons on the lower-right corner of each post. I say this because I've gotten notifications where I was quoted by someone, and then someone quoted them and removed my quote, but I still got notified.

 

I'm aware of the old topic tracker, which would alert you if any post is added to a topic, but not of one that specifies content.

It's a new system that BZPower got in 2011 with the upgraded board.

 

 

Red boxes and lines were added by me in Paint, to be clear.

 

In any event, personally the New Content page is much easier. I won't rule out adding them in the future, but it's a hassle, and to me if you have posted in a topic, you probably either want to read every post in a topic or have lost interest in the topic anyways. You can't rely on people even quoting at all; lots of people reply without a quote. It would add unnecessary clutter to always include them.

I agree with this. 

 

I admit that the new content page is not something I use much though. It irritates me because of the irritating filtering options - it's easier to just view the whole board index IMO so I don't miss stuff (and it's organized! Yes!). But to each their own.

[bonesiii]

...I don't think much about the Mata Nui Robot makes sense unless you assume that the Great Beings always intended for sapience/sentience to occur

You always have to keep in mind that:

 

1) They were meant to be "partially sapient" according to Greg. So many of the things some fans assume came from the later full sapience could really come (or the GBs could at least be concerned they might) from partial sapience. It's mainly developed culture and widescale deviation from "intended parameters" they did not intend.

 

2) Even without any level of sapience, a lot of the precautions people seem to assume had to have sapience in mind would also apply in case of glitches (for example, a being might murder because of evil, or because of a behavioral glitch; either way they would need stopped by "police" type beings).

 

There's also a chance Velika planned some of this ahead of time, knowing he would want to make them fully sapient, and gave his fellows fake reasons for some choices.

 

 

I didn't really understand the rest of your post.

 

 

bonesiii, on 15 Nov 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

3) Language, well, let's pass on this one since I don't know if there were to be other languages at all, and they all apparently learn Matoran upon spawning.

 

There are various ancient languages in the MU and some species have own languages that might interest other Matoran.

None of which answers the question of if those were planned or a result of full sapience.

 

For some reason I have trouble seeing them all as Scotty from Star Trek.

[Emphasis mine] Well, of course not, but the entire interworking "ecosystem" of minds and skills (and some sort of machinery or something) was aimed at that same basic purpose. It makes sense to have some intentional reservoir of knowledge somewhere in the complex "society" of AIs for your maintenance crew. Not everybody has to be geared toward direct maintenance; others can be support for them; making food, studying various things, teaching various things, etc. The point is, the best way to be prepared for unforeseen circumstances is to have some people studying just about anything and everything, all the time.

 

I'm thinking that could be programmed in without some schooling.

That assumes the Great Beings, the programmers, were smart enough to think of every possible challenge, in a limited time during a war emergency (that their own partial incompetence led to). That's hiiiiiiiiiiighly unlikely.

 

Also not sure how that would work while keeping the secret of where they live. They can't have the schematics for the giant robot downloaded upon spawning, for example. If any of them were ever called in to directly repair machines related to that, they'd probably have to find out those machines exist on the fly. Of course, Mata Nui might be able to "download" schematics to them. Still, if he's calling them in it's probably because he needs imagination and a new perspective, and again the best way to foster that is to have some perpetual students/teachers. (Same with forecasters and historians for Ko and Onu.)

 

I'm just saying it's possible that it developed after.  

Sure (as far as I know offhand), but that wasn't what I was talking about. I'm saying Ga-Metru's purpose is consistent with the Great Beings' needs. The question is if any of them happened to think of this, which, given that they're scientists and they had some experience with the consequences of unforeseen circumstances, makes a lot of sense that they would.

 

It's also possible Velika thought of it in hindsight and led toward it, or it was an "accidental" side effect of the full sapience. Just seems more likely the city jobs were original. Helps explain why they were so universal, and the Civil War trying to alter them was such a big deal.

 

No, it's probably linked to the quote buttons on the lower-right corner of each post.

Yeah, that's what I meant in the original reply; I doubt it's about having the code in the post itself. Anyways, it's good to know. Will take work to change my habit, though.

Edited November 16, 2014 by bonesiii

[Zox Tomana]

I think the schools were portrayed more as research-type institutions. Yeah, they had Teachers and students, but the students were apparently taught about Proto purification, something you'd think would have been programmed in. I think it would be a safe jump to say that they were being taught *new* things that weren't part of the program yet. I think whoever mentioned the idea of solving novel problems is probably on the right track as to why these schools existed. You can program a new Matoran with all the basic knowledge and discoveries already made, but once a Matoran is made they could possibly use these schools to study developing knowledge (new ways of purifying proto, novel machine designs perhaps? Cross study in a field you weren't programmed with the knowledge of?) and do research to create new knowledge.

 

I think my engineering friends would disagree about simple maintenance and repair not taking specialized knowledge. Heck, the barely high-school educated oilfield workers of my hometown would probably disagree there: Something's wrong with the pumpin' unit. Ok, what's wrong? Not sure. Ok, instead of taking it apart, let's apply what we know about it and our years of experience to diagnose the problem.

 

Diagnosing the problem is the part where special knowledge and training comes in, especially if the thing wrong is something that is unusual or unexpected. Fixing it would also require specialized knowledge, because you have to know how the thing works, how it is put together, and what you can do to it that won't ruin it.

[fishers64]

Suspension of disbelief usually fails at certain points & the Ga-Metru Schools seem like one of the things that would have occurred with something else earlier or being accepted until something later;

This tense is confusing here. I think you're saying that Ga-Metru schools (an institute of knowledge) would have developed along with something that required knowledge, or some Matoran dedicated themselves to learning and were accepted later when their knowledge proved useful. 

 

Is this correct?

it seems a strange query given this because if it was any of the other things that this was paired with: then ultimately this question is one of 'needing' an answer &/or the answers are already predicted; just deemed unsatisfying. Which would all be fine, as well as pretty much anything else... but... odd question.

If the antecedent for the article "this" is what I referred to above, you wouldn't need an answer because it was already solved.

 

However, the current argument is whether the Great Beings anticipated the need for knowledge to the point of designing the school system themselves, or accepted the need for a Matoran knowledge base. Either that or the Matoran themselves decided they needed an insitute of knowledge in conjunction with something else, or some of them wanted to be scholars and were accepted. This is debate is a matter of who (Matoran or GBs) developed it in conjunction with something else or who wanted a knowledge base and their idea was eventually accepted.

 

Of course, I'm probably very likely to be wrong, but that's what I'm getting out of here.

 

Which seems counter-intuitive because they didn't make the Matoran sapient in the first place, thereby the idea that they are "imaginative repair workers" (going back @bonesiii) doesn't quite add in that context. (We know that they didn't want fully sapient elemental beings like the Element Lords.)

 

On the other hand, I've actually used the "imaginative repair worker" idea to support a bunch of other theories and explain a bunch of other things, so I'm reluctant to kick that idea to the curb.

 

 

There are various ancient languages in the MU and some species have own languages that might interest other Matoran.

None of which answers the question of if those were planned or a result of full sapience.

 

I actually thought that had to do with Mata Nui - he made those beings - so it wasn't the result of either. Or technically Mata Nui was fully sapient, and that was planned, so it was both.

 

That assumes the Great Beings, the programmers, were smart enough to think of every possible challenge, in a limited time during a war emergency (that their own partial incompetence led to). That's hiiiiiiiiiiighly unlikely.

But the alternative appears to be that they would be designing a learning mechanism for things that weren't supposed to have enough intelligence to learn. At least, in terms of an education. They purposefully arranged for that to try to avoid Element Lords Part II.

 

Of course, Mata Nui might be able to "download" schematics to them. Still, if he's calling them in it's probably because he needs imagination and a new perspective,

Or maybe he just needs them to fix his broken thruster on his foot.

 

and again the best way to foster that is to have some perpetual students/teachers. (Same with forecasters and historians for Ko and Onu.)

That would be for sapient beings, though.

 

Just seems more likely the city jobs were original. Helps explain why they were so universal, and the Civil War trying to alter them was such a big deal.

Um, I thought the big deal was that the Matoran stopped doing those jobs, not that they were trying to alter them. While I suspect your retelling uses that theory as the cause of the war, I would caution that it is only a theory.

 

Anyway, I wouldn't consider it impossible that the GBs had these two contradictory ideas in their head while building this thing. Expecting them to act with perfect logic on a fast timetable is unreasonable. What I'm pointing out is that they did have the other idea in their head, which could have delayed them from implementing the schools. 

 

Another idea, one that I didn't consider above and probably makes more sense, is that the schools changed with sapience. Ga-Metru could have been the place where Matoran went for new "downloads". Over time as they grew sapient they would have gotten past all the download material and developed beyond what the GBs intended, and they had to communicate this new knowledge the old-fashioned way (teachers, students, schools).

Edited November 16, 2014 by fishers64

[TheCleanser]

According to BS01, the schools in Ga-Metru functioned to teach history, science, language, and diplomacy. What I do not understand is why there were even schools in the first place. for example, if the Matoran were already programmed to know their own language, why would they need to go to school for it? Also, if the Matoran can live forever (unless they go to the Red Star), why would they need history if they have lived it?

Also, what would be taught in the science and diplomacy aspects of the educational process, what would each of those constitute? My guesses are Matoran Anatomy (or Rahi anatomy, to be less disgusting) and Leadership skills, respectively. 

I though this would be some "women belong in the kitchen" thread, but believe it or not, I'm against that.

 

1)Language-Language changes over time, and I'm pretty sure matoran don't know about linguistics without education

 

2)History-What if you live under a rock?(literally, as a onu-matoran) Don't tell me you couldn't have missed something.

 

3)Diplomacy-Don't you tell me matoran are born with diplomacy. It'd pretty much be composed on what word to use/tone and how to act, etc.

 

4)Science-STEM, phyzziks, chemistry & stuff

[Pomegranate]

Well, if Takua is any indication, Matoran seem to lose their memories on a surprisingly regular basis. They really need to have schools if they're ever gonna get anything done and live normal lives

[bonesiii]

But the alternative appears to be that they would be designing a learning mechanism for things that weren't supposed to have enough intelligence to learn.

What canon source says they weren't supposed to learn? First of all, they're sentient, by Greg's definition which he says animals are, and a dog can learn (even when old ). Second, Greg said they were intended to be partially sapient (whatever that means). They were supposed to learn, it's just that the learning was to solve unexpected problems IMO, not learning culture for culture's sake and self-sacrifice above and beyond and such (what Angonce noticed).

 

It's true, though, that presumably there were supposed to be limits to their learning; they probably weren't supposed to find out, at least the majority of them, that they were inside a giant robot you could take over. Hence the whole fake skies and islands and all that.

 

Maybe a good comparison is to holodeck characters; there's an episode of Voyager where some of the characters are malfunctioning to be aware of the outside world. In there it was mentioned that they had "perception filters" that had glitched. In normal holodeck characters without that glitch, they could study all they want about their virtual world, but anything that would risk learning about what was off-limits would simply be filtered out. Something like that might be going on with the Matoran.

 

And all of this is forgetting the importance of review, anyways. Even if there was no new research (there probably was), the psychology of long, monotonous lives would probably eventually cause neurons (or equivs) to lose connections to unused knowledge, meaning most Matoran would become literally wired to live in a rut of normal behavior and forget anything not relevant to their job (this is a bit of an exaggeration, but yeah). So having some perpetual students/teachers on any and all subjects (allowed subjects) would help avoid this problem, even within the classes of subjects that the GBs would have been able to forecast the necessity of and program the knowledge in.

 

They purposefully arranged for that to try to avoid Element Lords Part II.

I'm saying that ensuring there were mechanisms to deal with unforeseen problems is the way to avoid EL2. Blindly trusting the system they had set up in simplicity was the problem with them (that and freewill but yeah). I think that taught them the contingency rule that we've seen so much evidence that they followed for the MU. But they couldn't think of every contingency, and likely they would realize this. Imaginative, partially sapient beings that could nevertheless not have actual freewill to break free of their programming goals (barring the rare glitch like in the murder example earlier, or of course hacking by Velika, heh), would be the best way to do that.

 

 

Quote

and again the best way to foster that is to have some perpetual students/teachers. (Same with forecasters and historians for Ko and Onu.)

That would be for sapient beings, though.

Have been reading the rest of my posts on this, though? I've covered why this assumption is unreasonable.

 

Um, I thought the big deal was that the Matoran stopped doing those jobs, not that they were trying to alter them.

That was why the war was a threat to Mata Nui, not why it started in the first place. It started from disputes between Po and Ta-Metru.

 

Anyway, I wouldn't consider it impossible that the GBs had these two contradictory ideas in their head while building this thing. Expecting them to act with perfect logic on a fast timetable is unreasonable. What I'm pointing out is that they did have the other idea in their head, which could have delayed them from implementing the schools.

Wait, what? What (alleged) contradiction are you talking about? Pronouns sans referents have confuzzled me.

 

Another idea, one that I didn't consider above and probably makes more sense, is that the schools changed with sapience.

Well yeah. I kinda thought we have all been assuming everything changed somehow or another with full sapience.

[Mailli]

All the Matoran forgot about Metru Nui, and that Karzahni was real, so it's feasible that they'd need to go to school to learn the stuff they keep forgetting.

[user-402520536]

Matoran anatomy... oh, man. It'd probably be something like "Okay, kids. Settle down. Today we're going to learn about the importance of axles and pins. Any volunteers for dissection? Don't worry, we'll always be able to put you back together!" 

[Ford]

Matoran anatomy... oh, man. It'd probably be something like "Okay, kids. Settle down. Today we're going to learn about the importance of axles and pins. Any volunteers for dissection? Don't worry, we'll always be able to put you back together!" 

I only said that because I'm taking Anatomy and Physiology right now, and was wondering if Matoran would be taught something similar. I mean, someone needs to know how to repair and heal other MU beings. Also, how do people just know how to rebuild Matoran?

[Regitnui]

I think it's likely. Probably not mentioned due to age problems, but I suspect the Ga-Matoran would at least study healing. Like the Po-Matoran would study carving... Wait! That's an idea; perhaps the Ga-Metru schools had non-Ga-Matoran instructors to teach those crafts from the other Metru.

[Boidoh]

Greg gives an answer, and it makes a lot of sense really.

 

2) Why Ga-Metru schools teach History of Metru Nui when Matoran there lived in the Island since its creation ? Wouldn't they know the whole story of the city ?

 

2) I know people who have lived in New York City all their lives, but they do not know the history of the city even that took place during their lifetime.

[J46 Nui]

 

Also, everyone gets amnesia all the time in the MU. Some people may have to relearn things.

I fail to understand how two instances of amnesia (the Time Slip and Makuta's takeover respectively) qualify as "everyone gets amnesia all the time."

 

I was being a bit hyperbolic, but not that much. You also forgot the slightly lesser forms of amnesia that the Matoran of Voya Nui and Karda Nui got during the Cataclysm. The Matoran of Mahri Nui also got hit with a second dose when they sank (I forgot which ones, but some of the Legends books discussed this).

 

Matoran seem to tend to deal with really traumatic events by forgetting some of the time. And I would consider events like a civil war and a Dark Hunter invasion to be pretty traumatic. So I think that some of the Matoran might lose their memory some of the time.

[fishers64]

 

Um, I thought the big deal was that the Matoran stopped doing those jobs, not that they were trying to alter them.

That was why the war was a threat to Mata Nui, not why it started in the first place. It started from disputes between Po and Ta-Metru.

 

Trading disputes, IIRC. "This chisel is worth 50 widgets! No, its worth 200!" or something like that.

 

 

Anyway, I wouldn't consider it impossible that the GBs had these two contradictory ideas in their head while building this thing. Expecting them to act with perfect logic on a fast timetable is unreasonable. What I'm pointing out is that they did have the other idea in their head, which could have delayed them from implementing the schools.

Wait, what? What (alleged) contradiction are you talking about? Pronouns sans referents have confuzzled me.

 

Let's see if I can deconfuzzle:

 

Which [referring to the imaginative repair worker idea] seems counter-intuitive because they didn't make the Matoran sapient in the first place, thereby the idea that they are "imaginative repair workers" (going back @bonesiii) doesn't quite add in that context.

 

(We know that they didn't want fully sapient elemental beings like the Element Lords.) <-- why they didn't want them to be sapient.

 

On the other hand, I've actually used the "imaginative repair worker" idea to support a bunch of other theories and explain a bunch of other things, so I'm reluctant to kick that idea to the curb.

 

[...]

 

Anyway, I wouldn't consider it impossible that the GBs had these two contradictory ideas [referring to the "GBs didn't make them sapient and didn't want them to be" and "the GBs wanted the Matoran to be imaginative repair workers to fix unexpected problems"]in their head while building this thing. Expecting them to act with perfect logic on a fast timetable is unreasonable. What I'm pointing out is that they did have the other idea [we don't want them to be sapient like the ELs] in their head, which could have delayed them from implementing the schools.

*facepalm* It appears that you have solved that here:

 

 

But the alternative appears to be that they would be designing a learning mechanism for things that weren't supposed to have enough intelligence to learn.

What canon source says they weren't supposed to learn? First of all, they're sentient, by Greg's definition which he says animals are, and a dog can learn (even when old ). Second, Greg said they were intended to be partially sapient (whatever that means). They were supposed to learn, it's just that the learning was to solve unexpected problems IMO, not learning culture for culture's sake and self-sacrifice above and beyond and such (what Angonce noticed).

 

It's true, though, that presumably there were supposed to be limits to their learning; they probably weren't supposed to find out, at least the majority of them, that they were inside a giant robot you could take over. Hence the whole fake skies and islands and all that.

 

You then go into analogy of holodeck characters. I don't think the Matoran have knowledge filters - that's inconsistent with the whole imaginative problem solving thing. Also finding out about the robot didn't make any Matoran explode or anything like that. I think the animal argument holds more water - animals can learn and solve problems.

 

But you don't see a dog with a textbook. At least, not without sapient beings' intervention. Dogs don't study diplomacy lol.

 

I'm saying that ensuring there were mechanisms to deal with unforeseen problems is the way to avoid EL2.

 

Imaginative, partially sapient beings that could nevertheless not have actual freewill to break free of their programming goals (barring the rare glitch like in the murder example earlier, or of course hacking by Velika, heh), would be the best way to do that.

Um, lack of mechanisms to deal with the ELs not going as expected was the whole problem in the first place. I'll give you that. 

 

But imaginative, partially sapient beings being the mechanism? Ow, that makes my head hurt. The elemental wielding beings in the "GB ideal robot" would not have full sapience, which means they wouldn't act like the ELs. But that doesn't deal with unforeseen problems. The other, non-elemental wielding beings would be able to deal with the problems the non-ELs caused...er...hopefully?

 

* * *

 

(Of course, they didn't turn out to be ELs anyway, even though they were fully sapient! That's one contingency they didn't plan for.)

 

Yeah, the GBs thought they could put imagination in a box. "You can only be imaginative about these problems we assign you to solve and not be imaginative about the other things." I'm putting a FAIL stamp on that.

 

And they did have other mechanisms to deal with the EL contingency. *cough* Makuta *cough* 

[bonesiii]

But you don't see a dog with a textbook. At least, not without sapient beings' intervention. Dogs don't study diplomacy lol.

Right, but dogs also aren't even "partially sapient" (cats are, but that's a whole 'nother subject ), like Greg said the Matoran were. Since even dogs can learn, how much more a Matoran with language, writing ability, etc.? Basically I'm saying they were intended to be problem-solvers -- but not to create things that aren't necessary for that task. Read the flashbacks about the Toa Mata for example -- applying knowledge and imagination to solve problems is clearly there, even though that's a time Greg has said is before the sapience alteration.

 

(But dogs do learn from "records", namely smells, and observe dog versions of diplomacy, if you will, learning from more experienced dogs, and their own experience, etc.)