Two thoughts on Elements

[Toa Jaxus]

I have two thoughts on the elements in the matoran universe and how in my opinion they could be altered:

1) Turn sonics into Kinetics. I never saw the point of it being so limited, and by turning it into Kinetic energy, you could retain the sound based powers, as sound waves are just simply movement of air particles or other mediums in the form of a repeating wave. It would also give the user powers like the ability to stop enemy attacks by taking all the kinetic energy from them as they swing their weapons or speeding themselves up and speeding up allies, and these are from the limits.

 

There is also the fact that De-Matoran would not have that strange weakness to their own elemental and instead could be given a more useful manifestation of their element like enhances speed. The major problems with this is that any being with kinetics elemental powers could absorb the force from direct blows to them and that could easily make a character over powered, however, any user of power like fire, plasma, gravity, magnetism, acid or anything that could damage and disable with direct movement could deal which such a being, The Toa Inika where able to defeat Vezon when he had Kinetic absorption as a power. 

 

2) Make Gravity and Magnetism one element. Let me explain, the only difference in their powers is that magnetism can attract object towards each other and disable certain electronics. Now Gravity could never disable electronics like magnetism can, but that factor of magnetism potential never occurred in any Bionicle story. Now anyone who studies physics can tell you that Gravity is the attraction between two objects  due to their masses. So any being with gravity powers, and two brain cells, can just disengage a target from the planet's gravity and increase the force of gravity they experience to another object, and watch as the target flies towards the second object and stays attached to it. The only advantage magnetism has in such a situation is that it can give one of the targets a magnetic charge that will last without them focusing on it while the the gravity user in the same situation would have to focus on the target, and this situation is only valid if either one of the targets is made of a magnetically attracted material, like most inhabitants of the Matoran Universe. Final, both Gravity and Magnetism are fundamental forces according to science and theoretically the Great Being could have used what ever power they used to create elemental powers to merge these two powers into one element.

 

 

so what does everyone think of my ideas. I don't mind if you think they're good or bad, just as long as you have some reason for your point of view.

[Padaster]

Personally, I think Gravity should scrapped as an element and just relegated to being a mask power.

[bonesiii]

I have to disagree about both:

 

1) While Kinetics was a major fan favorite among the various suggestions that were turned down to add to the Elements list back in the day, merging with Sonics was not a reason I recall anyone ever suggesting or if it was it must have been rare, probably for good reason. The sonics element has a lot of specific uses that go beyond mere pushing things around; you could fool somebody with a voice of a friend for example. And it seems unlikely that a Kinetics Toa would tend to use that power for sonics. Light and sound are very important to living beings; we get a Toa of Light, so methinks there should definitely be Toa of Sound.

 

2) Magnetism and... gravity? Magnetism and Lightning are closely related; surely if they were going to be merging Mag with something it would be that? Gravity is very different.

Edited November 14, 2014 by bonesiii

[Iblis]

Honestly I hope they just cut down on how many elements there are (at least as far as Matoran/Toa/Turaga go), as it is I'm very pleased with what appears to be a merger of Air with Flora as with Lewa. I really don't want to hear about MTT of: Gravity/Iron/Magnetism/Plasma/Psionics/Sand/Sonics et cetera, frankly the most egregious case of this was the Makuta/Rahkshi list of powers: Accuracy, Adaptation, Anger, Chain Lightning, Chameleon, Confusion, Cyclone, Darkness, Density Control, Disintegration, Dodge, Elasticity, Lightning, Fear, Fire Resistance, Gravity, Heat Vision, Hunger, Ice Resistance, Illusion, Insect Control, Invulnerability, Laser Vision, Magnetism, Mind Reading, Molecular Disruption, Plantlife, Plasma, Poison, Power Scream, Quick Healing, Rahi Control, Shapeshifting, Shattering, Silence, Sleep, Slowness, Sonics, Stasis Field, Teleportation, Vacuum, & 'finally' Weather Control. Ridiculous. Fine to have most those things being different powers but do they all need to be methodically... eugh.

 

...Cyclone, Elasticity, Heat Vision, Laser Vision, & Shattering. I can accept these showing up as an ability a given enemy has, but please, why are just cyclones a power? What is only going to be able to create a cyclone but not a soft breeze? & Why? Why would you even call something a "Power Scream"? it just... Scream... Sonics... Sometimes lists of things highlight the oddness. Please, just don't.

 

I'm fine with most of these things existing, but it shouldn't be a got to catch them all for every species/item IMO.

 

The main issue with the actual elements was that they weren't really shown in any meaningful way other than Plasma is cool right, throw that in & here are a few characters with priamry element: (near-)unique X, although Makuta have this element as well.

 

Why elasticity is considered a power that... it's not the ...'coolest'. Generally classical elements with a bit of meddling + common cultural notions or general environmental things that... I don't know even know. There were a lot of things that felt plain wrong, to even being trying to tidy them up I just want to go: leave the table as is (what we've seen so far of 2015), add at a rate that each power/element/ability can be addressed to some degree.

 

The Bohrok-Kal seemed silly, & I adored Bionicle then. The distinction and coolness of Guurahk (Disintegration) & Panrahk (Fragmentation) wasn't really there... The Vahki were ...bearable power wise. Boggarak seemed like it could have been OP but otherwise they and the rest of the Visorak were fine. & much later; Rahkshi with eye-beams as a power. Yay.

 

I get that seeing the same set of powers over & over could be boring, but frankly the way they were handled... The list bugs me more than anything else because it tries to reinforce certain things being separate that really shouldn't have been...

 

Earth & Stone never bugged me but seemed like an odd choice to begin with to me. My changes to that now would be to basically make Stone stretch into Metal (or "Iron") but I'd be fine with them leaving it how it is.

 

Elasticity does not make a cool thing make.

[fishers64]

2) Magnetism and... gravity? Magnetism and Lightning are closely related; surely if they were going to be merging Mag with something it would be that? Gravity is very different.

I think he's referring to the fact that both Magnetism and Gravity, in terms of practical powers, pull or push things around.

[bonesiii]

I think he's referring to the fact that both Magnetism and Gravity, in terms of practical powers, pull or push things around.

But then two problems (with the starting post reasoning anyways):

 

1) If we're simultaneously adding Kinetics, doesn't that seem counterproductive? (Psionics also does that, of course, and technically almost any element can, somehow or another, like Air or Water especially.)

 

2) Condensing Magnetism as a sub-power of Lightning, one most Toa don't know how to do (perhaps, as a recent topic suggested, that spiral trick to make an electromagnet), you already help with that by combining those two rather than the very different Mag and Grav.

 

 

 

Iblis, can we stay on topic here and talk about the elements in the topic question, please? Topics about elements tend to range widely enough; let's save Makuta powers for other topics. (If you're curious, I've answered many of those points in a "recent" (ish) post in another topic (dead by now I'm sure). I don't have time right now to dig it up, but you could search for it if you want. Some of your points there do work IMO but others don't.)

[boston100]

that makes sense 

[Prime Axiom]

NOPE. 

 

Kinetics shall never see the light of day except as a power. Gravity and Magnetism are two different forces of nature. 

 

 I do support Gravity being an Earth power in 2015 though. 

[Regitnui]

Poor suggestion. De-Matoran do not have a weakness to their own element, but a sensitivity. Just as a Ta-Matoran can't dive headfirst into lava, so a De-Matoran can't handle sudden, loud sounds. Going the other way and making them deafer seems wrong as well.

 

Magnetism and gravity could do similar things in the MU, correct. That doesn't make them candidates to be merged. If we were to merge elements, it may be better like this:

 

Fire+Plasma (flames are hot. Plasma is star stuff. 'Nuff sed.)

Water+Psionics (yeah, it falls into a major stereotype)

Air+Jungle(jungles are where a lot of non-flyong creatures become flyers)

Stone+Iron/Metal (Stone is quarried from earth, metal is refined.)

Earth+Gravity (linked in most people's minds anyway)

Ice+Sonics (They're all so quiet in Ko-Koro anyway)

Electricity+Magnetism (personally, I like electricity as a separate power, and magnetism fits naturally.

[Akavakaku]

The only "expanded list" element it makes sense to me to merge into another is Magnetism. All magnetism is is applying electrical charges and electrical fields, and from a physics standpoint electricity and magnetism are as closely bonded as time and space, meaning you'd need something as powerful as the Mask of Time to separate electricity from magnetism.

[Prime Axiom]

 My idea for elemental powers is that they should follow some sort of progression system. 

 

 Fire: Beginners can control and manipulate existing flames and raise the temperature. More advanced users can generate their own source of fire, and absorb heat. Skilled experts can generate lightning. 

 

 Water: Beginners can manipulate water, and swim through water at great efficiency. More advanced users can generate their own source of water, and absorb bodies of water. Skilled experts can heal. 

 

 Stone: Beginners can easily find stress points in rocks and shatter them. More advance users can generate stone at will. Skilled experts can manipulate metal. 

 

 Earth: Beginners can cause seismic earthquakes. More advance users can manipulate large stretches of Earth at will. Skilled experts can manipulate gravity. 

 

 Jungle: Beginners can manipulate air currents and communicate with plantlife. More advance users can generate their own supply of air and generate plant life. Skilled experts can fly without assistance. 

 

 Ice: Beginners can freeze upon contact. More advance users can create constructs of ice. Skilled experts can flash freeze at a distance. 

 

 And so forth. Stuff like magnetism can be achieved if a Toa of Fire who can generate lightning teams up with a Toa of Stone who can control metal. 

[Regitnui]

That sounds a lot like Avatar:TLA.

[Mailli]

I have two thoughts on the elements in the matoran universe and how in my opinion they could be altered:

1) Turn sonics into Kinetics. I never saw the point of it being so limited, and by turning it into Kinetic energy, you could retain the sound based powers, as sound waves are just simply movement of air particles or other mediums in the form of a repeating wave. It would also give the user powers like the ability to stop enemy attacks by taking all the kinetic energy from them as they swing their weapons or speeding themselves up and speeding up allies, and these are from the limits.

 

There is also the fact that De-Matoran would not have that strange weakness to their own elemental and instead could be given a more useful manifestation of their element like enhances speed. The major problems with this is that any being with kinetics elemental powers could absorb the force from direct blows to them and that could easily make a character over powered, however, any user of power like fire, plasma, gravity, magnetism, acid or anything that could damage and disable with direct movement could deal which such a being, The Toa Inika where able to defeat Vezon when he had Kinetic absorption as a power. 

 

2) Make Gravity and Magnetism one element. Let me explain, the only difference in their powers is that magnetism can attract object towards each other and disable certain electronics. Now Gravity could never disable electronics like magnetism can, but that factor of magnetism potential never occurred in any Bionicle story. Now anyone who studies physics can tell you that Gravity is the attraction between two objects  due to their masses. So any being with gravity powers, and two brain cells, can just disengage a target from the planet's gravity and increase the force of gravity they experience to another object, and watch as the target flies towards the second object and stays attached to it. The only advantage magnetism has in such a situation is that it can give one of the targets a magnetic charge that will last without them focusing on it while the the gravity user in the same situation would have to focus on the target, and this situation is only valid if either one of the targets is made of a magnetically attracted material, like most inhabitants of the Matoran Universe. Final, both Gravity and Magnetism are fundamental forces according to science and theoretically the Great Being could have used what ever power they used to create elemental powers to merge these two powers into one element.

 

 

so what does everyone think of my ideas. I don't mind if you think they're good or bad, just as long as you have some reason for your point of view.

Sound and kinetics are only similar on the scale of particles, which Bionicle rarely, if not never, mentions. Furthermore, you could argue heat, and therefore fire, is just vibrations of particles within matter, giving a Toa of kinetics yet another power.

 

Gravity is only ever used as the attraction of planets or moons in Bionicle, and even though everything with mass has gravity, it cannot be used horizontally.

[user-402520536]

Like Iblis said, I'm against Rahkshi powers altogether- just keep the first six and stick with 'em. I'm not trying to be someone who's just like 'Anything past '01 is garbage'. No, absolutely not. The powers they gave the Raks are just... I don't know, redundant?

[Iblis]

Whilst I kind of went a bit off topic with Powers as opposed to Elements, we had: Fire, Water, Air, Earth, Stone, Ice, Light, Lightning, Plasma, Magnetism, the Green, Sonics, Gravity, Iron and Psionics, Shadow, Sand, ^{and well Life, Time, & Creation are kind of in a different category.}

 

But one will notice that the total list of Rahkshi Powers included some elements. So the distinction I think is most relevant about Toa Teams & other team enemies, this is more noticeable with the: Bohrok, Bohrok-Kal, Rahkshi, & the Visorak.

 

(Somewhat) more individual enemies such as the Barraki could have a much wider / stranger set of abilities whether they be as 'elements' or 'powers' or what have you; but when species such as Matoran/Toa/Turaga, Bohrok, & other different 'tribes'/'breeds' are essentially the same except for their temperament & special-abilities.. It seems strange to diversify so much without actually diversifying; all you get is a recolour - & I'm not so much worried about set wise as it just seems like an annoying way to create a diverse selection without offering anything new...

It's kind of like space![culture], or fantasy![country]; the creator hasn't really needed to explain much because it's just copypasta with a few surface changes not very interesting. ^{The main difference between the M/T/T et cetera & these two examples is that the former is copying from it's own universe, the latter is copying form real life. Fine to do it a bit, but do it too much & you haven't added anything interesting. *shrugs*}

 

(The Vahki & the Piraka are an interesting case; they're powers didn't seem to obscure except for the general Skadi vision powers...)

 

Hence whilst I like the ideas proposed by Prime Axiom ^{(minus the tier system, but that's just me)}, I prefer the simple idea proposed by Gukko Lord; simply drop them. Although I wouldn't be that strict on dropping them all, just not have to make a table of all the elements and make sure I have a 'Matoran'/Toa/'Turaga of each. I don't mind consolidating some.

 

_{Just for the record: I look forward to G2 & I am optimistic about it, I liked G1 although I didn't like many of the things in 2009 & 2010 I don't think they were evil & I think they are firmly part of G1; the Bohrok were one of my favourite sets of antagonists (as were the Barraki), the Rahkshi were sick I just thought some of the powers were to close together (Heat Vision vs. Laser Vision) or seemed somewhat arbitrary (Cyclone) or just out of place (elasticity) but most of them were good-fine; Iron-Stone-Sand-Earth seemed fine to me but I would rather have Sand&Iron merged or abandoned as far as any one group containing all of them go; Magnatism seemed cool but ... due to the nature of the universe it didn't seem 'equal' in "power" to other elements — what advantages & disadvantages does it have as opposed to Gravity or Iron? After a while the line drawing seems awkward even if it is pretty logical internally. Many of these elemental & powers have some good explanations out there for them. But how does it feel in a story?}

 

_{& Gukko Lord}

[Prime Axiom]

 I actually agree with Gukko Lord on the whole "there should only be six elements". However, I don't like eliminating the special powers from the storyline altogether. I'm pretty sure we can find inventive way to rework some existing powers into the major six elements. It would allow for a lot more creativeness. For example, acid-base powers can come from evil Jungle-type characters. A fire-based character may have a heat vision ability. 

 

 I also like the tier system as it would allow for a distinction between more experienced Toa and less experienced ones if we have multiple team. So the elite characters would have access to the tertiary abilities due to their superior experience controlling the elements, whilst the less experienced characters will have to learn the ropes. This is assuming multiple Toa teams exist, of course. 

Edited November 16, 2014 by Prime Axiom

[bonesiii]

Gravity is only ever used as the attraction of planets or moons in Bionicle, and even though everything with mass has gravity, it cannot be used horizontally.

You're probably thinking of the limited Kanohi Garai; the Nuhvok-Kal (and presumably Toa) could aim gravity in any direction.

[Akavakaku]

Also Hewkii used gravity to tie an eel in a knot, so it seems like even the Kanohi allows pretty versatile gravity manipulation.

[Toa Jaxus]

I do find myself been won over by the arguments against turning Sonics into kinetic energy as an element, and while I'm seeing the merit of keeping gravity and magnetism as different elements, I don't see any point of making the latter a part of electricity if we're not going for scientifically accurate with the elements, and I do feel that there is enough difference between them.

 

Although I do have some questions:

1) How do people actually feel about kinetics as an element? I do feel some hate and dislike towards the idea.

2) What about acid as an element?

3) Does anyone have any other ideas for elements.

4) @Regitnui, How are water and psionics similar elements.

[Irrie]

In response to the above post...

 

1). I think it would work better as a rare great mask. Not quite a legendary mask, but not a common one that anyone can get their hands on. Kind of like the Olmak. 

2). How about a Toa of Ph that has control over acids and bases? It will probably need a different name, tho. 'Ph' sounds kind of silly in this context. 

3). A while ago, I wanted for Exotic Matter to be an element, but I now think that would be too OP and too hard to implement into the universe. 

[bonesiii]

Although I do have some questions:

1) How do people actually feel about kinetics as an element? I do feel some hate and dislike towards the idea.

As I mentioned before, it was suggested and debated back when Greg was open to new elements and active on here, and he ended up turning it down. I forget his exact reasoning, though. Logically it really should be one, as it's the main remaining energy, and the other energies were included, but that assumes the GBs were concerned with a logically complete list of elements. They weren't, so it's really subjective, and it doesn't need to be one.

 

2) What about acid as an element?

Both this and Kinetics were chosen as Expanded Multiverse elements. However, Acid has an issue of seeming more immoral (perhaps even than Fire). (That didn't matter for the EM as the "immoral power" idea is not common there, but in the canon MU it is.) There was also an odd reason against it; both Le Bohrok types were intentionally given "non-elemental" powers. However, at one point Greg seemed to support calling it a "non-Toa element" and I've seen some fans still call it that.

 

3) Does anyone have any other ideas for elements.

The most popular ones I've seen were Crystal and Lava. Some of the others on the EM list had been suggested back in the day too for canon, but Greg ended up turning them all down. (Who knows what the reboot will do, though.)

 

4) @Regitnui, How are water and psionics similar elements.

Uh... they both... er... move things? (Water blast... and telekinesis...) Yeah... I don't think they are.

[user-402520536]

 I actually agree with Gukko Lord on the whole "there should only be six elements". However, I don't like eliminating the special powers from the storyline altogether. I'm pretty sure we can find inventive way to rework some existing powers into the major six elements. It would allow for a lot more creativeness. For example, acid-base powers can come from evil Jungle-type characters. A fire-based character may have a heat vision ability. 

 

 I also like the tier system as it would allow for a distinction between more experienced Toa and less experienced ones if we have multiple team. So the elite characters would have access to the tertiary abilities due to their superior experience controlling the elements, whilst the less experienced characters will have to learn the ropes. This is assuming multiple Toa teams exist, of course. 

I actually only meant the other 34 Rahkshi powers- in my opinion, they were just unnecessary and redundant. I also think that Tiers are a great idea.

[Toa Jaxus]

When did Greg Farshtey do a debate on alternative elements? I'm curious and I'll look it up for myself if you can give some more pointers, and I caould probably find it out tonight if I start now.

@ The Irrational Rock, I would make the prefix of acid Hy or Arr, Hy after hydrogen, which is the element that helps defines most acids, and Arr after Svante Arhenius, who gave one of the first definitions for acids.

[Twister92]

I feel like earth and stone should be one element, and was having similar considerations about the ones you listed. For things like lightning have one big element about the electromagnetic spectrum - under the Toa of Light. Kinetics wouldn't be a bad element either, bringing sonics, magnetism, and gravity into this. Hehehe, you're giving me "epic" ideas...

[Iku]

 

I think he's referring to the fact that both Magnetism and Gravity, in terms of practical powers, pull or push things around.

But then two problems (with the starting post reasoning anyways):

 

1) If we're simultaneously adding Kinetics, doesn't that seem counterproductive? (Psionics also does that, of course, and technically almost any element can, somehow or another, like Air or Water especially.)

 

2) Condensing Magnetism as a sub-power of Lightning, one most Toa don't know how to do (perhaps, as a recent topic suggested, that spiral trick to make an electromagnet), you already help with that by combining those two rather than the very different Mag and Grav.

 

 

 

Iblis, can we stay on topic here and talk about the elements in the topic question, please? Topics about elements tend to range widely enough; let's save Makuta powers for other topics. (If you're curious, I've answered many of those points in a "recent" (ish) post in another topic (dead by now I'm sure). I don't have time right now to dig it up, but you could search for it if you want. Some of your points there do work IMO but others don't.)

 

 

 

I would rather Magetism be combined with Iron. As a Toa of Iron, you can move metal around, and as a result, manipulate/move metal in almost exactly the same way as a Toa of Magnetism would. The only differences between the Toa are that the Toa of Iron would likely be able to shape metal more easily than a Toa of Magnetism, and the Toa of Magnetism would be able to permanently magnetise a piece of metal. Other than that, I don't see much of a difference between the two. 

 

I think it has been said by Greg that the physics in BIONICLE don't work like Earth physics, so Lightning and Magnetism don't really mix in BIONICLE. I can see where you're coming from, but I think giving Toa of Lightning powers over magnetism would make them too OP. If we combine Magnetism and Iron, which are both fairly limited, the resultant Toa would likely have an average power level, as opposed to a Toa of Lightning that can also attract and repel metal.

[Irrie]

I think it has been said by Greg that the physics in BIONICLE don't work like Earth physics, so Lightning and Magnetism don't really mix in BIONICLE. I can see where you're coming from, but I think giving Toa of Lightning powers over magnetism would make them too OP. If we combine Magnetism and Iron, which are both fairly limited, the resultant Toa would likely have an average power level, as opposed to a Toa of Lightning that can also attract and repel metal.

 

Anyway...

Problem is, if a Makuta encounters a Toa of Iron AND Magnetism, things aren't looking good for them. They probably would have never even gotten past step one of The Plan.

But yes, that does seem like a sensible combination (unlike how Psionics and Water are somehow related). 

Edited November 17, 2014 by The Irrational Rock

[fishers64]

@Kinetics

3. Force/Movement/Kinetics
 
 
3) Too broad
* * *
Can kinetics be considered an element? (By your canon, or otherwise.)
 
I tend to doubt the average 8-9 year old would get what this meant, but that aside -- explain it to me. What does a Toa of Kinetics do? What's his power or powers? If he's in a fight, how does this power help him? I am really not looking to add more new elements, but I am also don't want to rule something out completely until I am sure I understand what the questioner has in mind.

 
That's the reasoning. According to the dialogue, it was also polled by BZPower and opposed by some respectable members in said poll. 
 
* * * 
 

 (unlike how Psionics and Water are somehow related). 

Waterfalls and water fixtures calm people down and have a soothing effect on the subconscious mind.

[Irrie]

 

 (unlike how Psionics and Water are somehow related). 

Waterfalls and water fixtures calm people down and have a soothing effect on the subconscious mind.

That seems like a combination effect from two elements. 

By combination effect, I mean water and air making a storm, fire and earth controlling lava, ect. So if two Toa were attacked by a swarm of angry mobsters, a Psionics and a Water Toa could put them to sleep. 

[fishers64]

 

 

 (unlike how Psionics and Water are somehow related). 

Waterfalls and water fixtures calm people down and have a soothing effect on the subconscious mind.

That seems like a combination effect from two elements. 

By combination effect, I mean water and air making a storm, fire and earth controlling lava, ect. So if two Toa were attacked by a swarm of angry mobsters, a Psionics and a Water Toa could put them to sleep. 

 

No, a Toa of Psionics could put someone to sleep or influence someone's mind to be relaxed and peaceful without a Toa of Water's influence. 

[Irrie]

 

 

 

 (unlike how Psionics and Water are somehow related). 

Waterfalls and water fixtures calm people down and have a soothing effect on the subconscious mind.

That seems like a combination effect from two elements. 

By combination effect, I mean water and air making a storm, fire and earth controlling lava, ect. So if two Toa were attacked by a swarm of angry mobsters, a Psionics and a Water Toa could put them to sleep. 

 

No, a Toa of Psionics could put someone to sleep or influence someone's mind to be relaxed and peaceful without a Toa of Water's influence. 

 

So why would you need a Toa of Water?

[fishers64]

 

 

 

 

 (unlike how Psionics and Water are somehow related). 

Waterfalls and water fixtures calm people down and have a soothing effect on the subconscious mind.

That seems like a combination effect from two elements. 

By combination effect, I mean water and air making a storm, fire and earth controlling lava, ect. So if two Toa were attacked by a swarm of angry mobsters, a Psionics and a Water Toa could put them to sleep. 

 

No, a Toa of Psionics could put someone to sleep or influence someone's mind to be relaxed and peaceful without a Toa of Water's influence. 

 

So why would you need a Toa of Water?

 

I never said that you would need one. I said that falling water has a psychological effect on people (and quite possibly, Bionicle beings) in response to your statement that the elements are somehow related. And so they are.

 

(Really all the elements have psychological effects, so all elements are related to Psionics one way or another, because minds perceive them. But if you've ever seen a fountain at the dentist's office or paid a visit to the beach, you'll know that water has a stronger vibe. I've even seen people so attached to the sound of water that they will build artificial lakes and waterfalls in the middle of the desert. Point is, there is an association/connection there.)

Edited November 18, 2014 by fishers64

[The Meta Knight]

 My idea for elemental powers is that they should follow some sort of progression system. 

 

 Fire: Beginners can control and manipulate existing flames and raise the temperature. More advanced users can generate their own source of fire, and absorb heat. Skilled experts can generate lightning. 

 

 Water: Beginners can manipulate water, and swim through water at great efficiency. More advanced users can generate their own source of water, and absorb bodies of water. Skilled experts can heal. 

 

 Stone: Beginners can easily find stress points in rocks and shatter them. More advance users can generate stone at will. Skilled experts can manipulate metal. 

 

 Earth: Beginners can cause seismic earthquakes. More advance users can manipulate large stretches of Earth at will. Skilled experts can manipulate gravity. 

 

 Jungle: Beginners can manipulate air currents and communicate with plantlife. More advance users can generate their own supply of air and generate plant life. Skilled experts can fly without assistance. 

 

 Ice: Beginners can freeze upon contact. More advance users can create constructs of ice. Skilled experts can flash freeze at a distance. 

 

 And so forth. Stuff like magnetism can be achieved if a Toa of Fire who can generate lightning teams up with a Toa of Stone who can control metal. 

 

I'm all for this idea, except the part about how Toa of Fire should be able to control lightning. I think those should remain separate. Instead, it would make more sense for a Toa of Fire to be able to shoot beams of plasma.

 

As for Magnetism and Lightning being combined, I don't think that would really be as OP as people are saying, and a Toa of Lightning is OP by default. Take this into consideration: A Toa of Electricity would be powerful by herself. But a Toa of Lightning could shoot lightning, (duh,) which could vaporize her opponents. (Not to say Lightning and Electricity are different.) So I don't think simply tossing Magnetism in there would make a Toa of Lightning that much more powerful.

 

Earth, Stone, and Iron should never have been different. But, with the exception of Iron being separate, I really can't see them being the same after all these years. And it kinda does make sense, as Toa of Stone can control rock formations while Toa of Earth can control and manipulate the Earth itself. It's because of this distinction that I do think Earth and Gravity should be combined.

 

Honestly, I am kinda hoping they cut down on the Element count in gen 2. They already did combine Air and the Green, so that's a good start. I also agree that their should be more distinction between "Elements" and "Powers," Elements being Water, Earth, Fire, Air etc. and Powers being stuff like Heat Vision, Elasticity, Weather Control, Silence etc. Although Laser vision and Heat Vision don't need to be the same.

Edited November 18, 2014 by The Meta Knight

[bonesiii]

When did Greg Farshtey do a debate on alternative elements? I'm curious and I'll look it up for myself

It was a topic, so it's unlikely it survived the archives loss.

 

I would rather Magetism be combined with Iron. As a Toa of Iron, you can move metal around, and as a result, manipulate/move metal in almost exactly the same way as a Toa of Magnetism would. The only differences between the Toa are that the Toa of Iron would likely be able to shape metal more easily than a Toa of Magnetism, and the Toa of Magnetism would be able to permanently magnetise a piece of metal. Other than that, I don't see much of a difference between the two.

Iron can make a variety of metals including nonmagnetic ones, which may have useful physics traits. And while Iron can make magnetic metals, that doesn't prove they can make them magnetized. (I dunno offhand either way, but I'd think probably not.) Merging them could work, but also might make Iron overpowered.

 

I think it has been said by Greg that the physics in BIONICLE don't work like Earth physics, so Lightning and Magnetism don't really mix in BIONICLE.

This doesn't follow. We know normal matter exists in Bionicle, and works normally, so real-world electromagnetism exists, regardless of what other fictional physics are added into the world. And even if it didn't need to be in fiction, my point was that electromagnetism is already inherently connected, so if we were fusing Magnetism with something, Lightning would be a more natural choice than Gravity.

 

I can see where you're coming from, but I think giving Toa of Lightning powers over magnetism would make them too OP.

Keep in mind I wasn't saying they should be fused, just if we had already agreed to fuse Magnetism with -something-, electricity would be the most logical choice. I agree that avoiding appearance of it being overpowered is a good reason Gen1 didn't do it.

 

Not sure it follows that it has to be OP to combine the two, though. I think at the very least, Electromagnetism is less OP than Metal+Magnetism, since metal can include such a wide variety of physical behaviors.

 

@Kinetics

Official Greg Dialogue said

3. Force/Movement/Kinetics

 

 

3) Too broad

* * *

Can kinetics be considered an element? (By your canon, or otherwise.)

 

I tend to doubt the average 8-9 year old would get what this meant, but that aside -- explain it to me. What does a Toa of Kinetics do? What's his power or powers? If he's in a fight, how does this power help him? I am really not looking to add more new elements, but I am also don't want to rule something out completely until I am sure I understand what the questioner has in mind.

That's the reasoning. According to the dialogue, it was also polled by BZPower and opposed by some respectable members in said poll.

Yeah, I thought it was a poll. If memory serves, this was also after Psionics had already been adopted, and it already had a power very similar to Kinetics; telekinesis.

 

 

Edit:

 

I also agree that their should be more distinction between "Elements" and "Powers," Elements being Water, Earth, Fire, Air etc. and Powers being stuff like Heat Vision, Elasticity, Weather Control, Silence etc. Although Laser vision and Heat Vision don't need to be the same.

I did a double take at this. Could you clarify what you mean by this? What more distinction are you thinking of? (I ask because my first read of this probably misunderstood what you meant as saying there was no distinction in Gen1. There was. I'm thinking you didn't mean that though...)

Edited November 18, 2014 by bonesiii

[Regitnui]

Water and Psionics are related thusly:

 

1)Water is intrinsic to biology. Psionics is the powers of the mind. Therefore they both have 'life' powers.

 

2) Water and psionics both encourage healing (Gali in MoL, psionics in other media are very capable of healing).

 

3) The two powers are also associated with femininity outside of BIONICLE.

 

4) They both favour subtlety over brute force. Wielded subtly, water can change an ecosystem, carving mountains from plains. Similarly, psionics could crush someone's will, or you could subtly change their mind until they agree with you.

 

5) Finally, Water is cool and soothing, exactly the sort of influence psionicists should have on other's minds. A light touch is rewarded.

[Padaster]

Do we know if all the element types have been revealed? I can imagine Crystal being an element. If I'm missing something, please let me know.

[Regitnui]

Do we know if all the element types have been revealed? I can imagine Crystal being an element. If I'm missing something, please let me know.

From Gen1, all the elements are revealed. Toa can combine 6 different elements (Not Light and Shadow though) to create a Crystalline Toa Seal.

[Prime Axiom]

 

 My idea for elemental powers is that they should follow some sort of progression system. 

 

 Fire: Beginners can control and manipulate existing flames and raise the temperature. More advanced users can generate their own source of fire, and absorb heat. Skilled experts can generate lightning. 

 

 Water: Beginners can manipulate water, and swim through water at great efficiency. More advanced users can generate their own source of water, and absorb bodies of water. Skilled experts can heal. 

 

 Stone: Beginners can easily find stress points in rocks and shatter them. More advance users can generate stone at will. Skilled experts can manipulate metal. 

 

 Earth: Beginners can cause seismic earthquakes. More advance users can manipulate large stretches of Earth at will. Skilled experts can manipulate gravity. 

 

 Jungle: Beginners can manipulate air currents and communicate with plantlife. More advance users can generate their own supply of air and generate plant life. Skilled experts can fly without assistance. 

 

 Ice: Beginners can freeze upon contact. More advance users can create constructs of ice. Skilled experts can flash freeze at a distance. 

 

 And so forth. Stuff like magnetism can be achieved if a Toa of Fire who can generate lightning teams up with a Toa of Stone who can control metal. 

 

I'm all for this idea, except the part about how Toa of Fire should be able to control lightning. I think those should remain separate. Instead, it would make more sense for a Toa of Fire to be able to shoot beams of plasma.

 

As for Magnetism and Lightning being combined, I don't think that would really be as OP as people are saying, and a Toa of Lightning is OP by default. Take this into consideration: A Toa of Electricity would be powerful by herself. But a Toa of Lightning could shoot lightning, (duh,) which could vaporize her opponents. (Not to say Lightning and Electricity are different.) So I don't think simply tossing Magnetism in there would make a Toa of Lightning that much more powerful.

 

Earth, Stone, and Iron should never have been different. But, with the exception of Iron being separate, I really can't see them being the same after all these years. And it kinda does make sense, as Toa of Stone can control rock formations while Toa of Earth can control and manipulate the Earth itself. It's because of this distinction that I do think Earth and Gravity should be combined.

 

Honestly, I am kinda hoping they cut down on the Element count in gen 2. They already did combine Air and the Green, so that's a good start. I also agree that their should be more distinction between "Elements" and "Powers," Elements being Water, Earth, Fire, Air etc. and Powers being stuff like Heat Vision, Elasticity, Weather Control, Silence etc. Although Laser vision and Heat Vision don't need to be the same.

 

 

  A lot of sources I've read consider lightning to be an example of plasma, so having fire control lightning. Plus, a lot of fiction I've read has lightning as being related to fire. 

 

 As for electricity and magnetism being combined...Then we'll have to call it a Toa of Electromagnetism. It would be somewhat OP as EM forces can do a lot of fundamental things.

 

The way I would like the elements played out this time around is that there are only classic six elements + light. Other powers should either be special skills related to the six elements, or combinations thereof. Otherwise we're just going to end up with a bunch of elements that we'll never get the sets of again... and that's just no fun. Really unique powers would just be powers then, like elasticity. But stuff like weather control should be combos between water/jungle/ice. 

Edited November 18, 2014 by Prime Axiom

[Regitnui]

 As for electricity and magnetism being combined...Then we'll have to call it a Toa of Electromagnetism. It would be somewhat OP as EM forces can do a lot of fundamental things.

 

 

 Magneto from the X-men. Only person to kill Wolverine in any form of media permanently. 'Nuff said.

[Adventurer]

Combining gravity and magnetism on the basis that they both "push/pull" isn't a very strong argument imo since pretty much anything can be reduced to "pushing/pulling" in some way or another. All the fundamental forces and motions of nature are central forces that pull or repel really so that same argument could basically be extended to every element/power.

[bonesiii]

A lot of sources I've read consider lightning to be an example of plasma, so having fire control lightning. Plus, a lot of fiction I've read has lightning as being related to fire.

Bionicle made that connection too, with the red Bohrok-Kal having Electricity power (and normal red Bohrok having Fire).

 

But stuff like weather control should be combos between water/jungle/ice.

Yeah, it would be nice to see that not just done a little like Gen1 did in the 2001 comics and then drop it, but incorporated as a regular part of Gen2 elements, and actually explore some other combos besides that one.