What Happened To The Ignika and More Importantly The Vahi

[Toa Malachives]

What happened to the Ignika and Vahi?

 

The Ignika now harbours Mata Nui's spirt and went where exactly? Into hiding? What would it wait for? Could it stop Velika? Why does Mata Nui want to sleep again, he was asleep for 1000 years?!

 

What happened to the Vahi? Where is Vopoark? What does he want to do with the mask of time? Could he be the missing link? Could he complete the Vahi? Why did he not go to the Dark Hunters with it? What is he going to do?

 

We will probably never know the answers.

[fishers64]

Ignika: Tahu and Co probably still have it.

 

Vahi: Voporak still has it. He never got it to the Shadowed One. 

[Toa Smoke Monster]

 Why does Mata Nui want to sleep again, he was asleep for 1000 years?!

Just to answer this question, I believe it is was stated that Mata Nui went dormant again inside the Ignika so that the MU residents and Bara Magna natives could 'create their own society without his influence,' according to Mata Nui's BS01 page. 

[Regitnui]

I can picture Voporak clinging tightly to the Vahi in an obscure part of Spherus Magna like Gollum with the Ring. Since he very likely got separated from the Shadowed One, he got left behind in the Archives until the Reign of Shadows bought the universe down.

[Toa Malachives]

Lol so true. I wonder why he wants it so much......

/quote

Just to answer this question, I believe it is was stated that Mata Nui went dormant again inside the Ignika so that the MU residents and Bara Magna natives could 'create their own society without his influence,' according to Mata Nui's BS01 page.

 

Wow what a lazy great spirit. They're all going to be killed by the Great Beings, just create Irnakk again Ignika then covert them into thought. Boom problem solved.

[Banana Gunz]

Lol so true. I wonder why he wants it so much......

/quote

Just to answer this question, I believe it is was stated that Mata Nui went dormant again inside the Ignika so that the MU residents and Bara Magna natives could 'create their own society without his influence,' according to Mata Nui's BS01 page.

 

Wow what a lazy great spirit. They're all going to be killed by the Great Beings, just create Irnakk again Ignika then covert them into thought. Boom problem solved.

 

Not lazy in my opinion. He probably didn't know of the threats of the evil GB's (I don't think they were all evil, Angonce would probably be a good guy from what we've seen of his character). He went into sleep for a fair reason seeing that his destiny was complete and he would only interfere with the growth of the agori and matoran as societies with his shadow over them.

 

And as you said, sadly these are questions that will probably never be answered...

Edited November 16, 2014 by Banana Gunz

[Regitnui]

The GBs aren't so much evil as neglectful. With good reason, as they're slightly insane inventors, and I don't think anyone would trust a crazy inventor to become president/ prime minister/insert leader here. They do seem to have the Agori and Glatorian's best interests at heart, but as said before, are poor rulers and their creations tend to behave in ways they don't expect. Even Velika, who is the closest thing to an evil GB we have is more of a Well-Intentioned Extremist than actively malicious.

[Iblis]

The GBs aren't so much evil as neglectful. With good reason, as they're slightly insane inventors,

...

Even Velika, who is the closest thing to an evil GB we have is more of a Well-Intentioned Extremist than actively malicious.

 

I'm not disputing any of this, it just has to be said; but poor Tren Krom. A nice enough Eldritchish being, made to run a GSR until entirely virtual Mata Nui could be completed, promptly locked up inside said Robot for an indeterminate amount of time with very little to do. Then executed by its creators.

 

Because it did so much malicious stuff. Regardless of any real world parallels that could be made, that wasn't a nice move.

 

Giant Robot(s!). Contains Islands. I guess that's (star)ship luxurious taken to the eccentric extreme. ^{Plus One.}

 

They're definitely more than a little eccentric. So if they're not Abusive Precursors they're entirely definitely Neglectful Precursors with server cognitive impairments on an inhuman scale.

 

Aside from the Ignika & Vahi ... what happened to Marendar? I quick search on this brought up the wonderful suggestion that Velika-in-Matoran-body became a Toa & beautiful poetry might happen, but... What happened to the Bahrag?! They just ...chill on _Magna or..?

 

They didn't seem to have much of an interest beyond doing what they were told/programmed to. So they'll be facing a nice little existential crisis.

 

(I have nothing worthwhile to say about the Ignika or Vahi that hasn't already been said.)

[user-402520536]

Personally, I think Voporak is trying to use the Vahi to go back in time and save his species, or at least kill Sidorak. *cough* *cough* Fanfiction Ideas *cough*

[fishers64]

The GBs aren't so much evil as neglectful. With good reason, as they're slightly insane inventors, and I don't think anyone would trust a crazy inventor to become president/ prime minister/insert leader here. They do seem to have the Agori and Glatorian's best interests at heart, but as said before, are poor rulers and their creations tend to behave in ways they don't expect. Even Velika, who is the closest thing to an evil GB we have is more of a Well-Intentioned Extremist than actively malicious.

Actually I thought the big problem was that they didn't WANT to be rulers. They might have been really good ones in reality, but they tried to make something to do that job for them so they could sit back and create new stuff. (That was their mistake - they believed that their creations could solve everything. Instead, they probably would have been better off to tell the Agori/Glatorian that they didn't really want the ruling job and arrange for some leaders among them to take over the role.)

 

Then Velika sees that going on and thinks that a GB has to lead SM or bad things happen, so he leads this campaign to enforce his own form of order. This ignores the fact that the Agori/Glatorian and the Matoran/Toa/Turaga have had their own effective forms of leadership for thousands of years.

 

I'm not disputing any of this, it just has to be said; but poor Tren Krom. A nice enough Eldritchish being, made to run a GSR until entirely virtual Mata Nui could be completed, promptly locked up inside said Robot for an indeterminate amount of time with very little to do. Then executed by its creators.

 

Because it did so much malicious stuff. Regardless of any real world parallels that could be made, that wasn't a nice move.

I'm not sure that "nice enough" and "Eldritchish being" can go in the same sentence. That aside, this guy killed Carapar and possibly made Mutran insane and tried to steal Lewa's body. Plus also, it's not like the GBs could leave him on SM or let him run around in the MU. They did the only thing they could.  

 

They're definitely more than a little eccentric. So if they're not Abusive Precursors they're entirely definitely Neglectful Precursors with server cognitive impairments on an inhuman scale.

I'm not sure how assuming your creations can solve everything/making mistakes equates to "severe cognitive impairments on an inhuman scale". Even humans make mistakes.

 

Personally, I think Voporak is trying to use the Vahi to go back in time and save his species, or at least kill Sidorak. *cough* *cough* Fanfiction Ideas *cough*

Why would Voporak want to kill Sidorak?

[Toa Malachives]

He put forward him to be expiremented om

[Iblis]

 

I'm not disputing any of this, it just has to be said; but poor Tren Krom. A nice enough Eldritchish being, made to run a GSR until entirely virtual Mata Nui could be completed, promptly locked up inside said Robot for an indeterminate amount of time with very little to do. Then executed by its creators.

 

Because it did so much malicious stuff. Regardless of any real world parallels that could be made, that wasn't a nice move.

I'm not sure that "nice enough" and "Eldritchish being" can go in the same sentence. That aside, this guy killed Carapar and possibly made Mutran insane and tried to steal Lewa's body. Plus also, it's not like the GBs could leave him on SM or let him run around in the MU. They did the only thing they could. 

 

They really shouldn't go in the same sentence, he just never really struck me as an actual Eldritch Abomination in terms of mentality; physically he might have that effect and psychically he might utterly 'addle' you. He didn't seem like he had a Blue and Orange Morality or Evil, or necessarily malicious, he might not exactly be (very) empathic or have any moral compass as such; but would it have been impossible to do anything better than locking him up for millennia &/or killing him?

Whilst I don't think it was the right thing to do, killing Carapar doesn't strike me as the sign that someone is evil or necessarily that nasty.

I mean, he had been locked up for how long? I don't know how normal or pleasant most things would be after that amount of time imprisoned...

 

 

 

 

They're definitely more than a little eccentric. So if they're not Abusive Precursors they're entirely definitely Neglectful Precursors with server cognitive impairments on an inhuman scale.

I'm not sure how assuming your creations can solve everything/making mistakes equates to "severe cognitive impairments on an inhuman scale". Even humans make mistakes.

 

There are mistakes, & then there are mistakes. Thinking that having millions of near-sentient beings wondering around given absurdly powerful abilities isn't ever a fantastic idea if you actually care about the potential beings potential for suffering.

 

Literally comparing the amount of pain & suffering that happened to the millions of things in the Great Spirit Robot can probably be quite easily estimated to be much worse than any single war on earth. A poorly thought out idea that causes general unpleasantness for millions of sentient beings is a monumental failure.

 

Considering the intelligence required to do any number of things they did compared to other beings & feats in-universe... that they didn't foresee how utterly horrible things could have gone despite all their fail-safes is an error that I don't see even two people simply not contemplating et cetera without something wrong with their minds simply does not compute. The only way such a monumental failure I could see caused by a person is simply one by a person who lacked empathy ^{(to the point that only the most extreme case of a clinical narcissist ... & their are actual cognitive issues beyond a lack of empathy, with the latter ...I still don't see it even in the worst case, although this is more theoretical than otherwise... even an utter psychopath has better reasoning capabilities. On a real world note there are such things as functional narcissists & functional psychopaths. They aren't necessarily murderers or committing crimes!)} — which would link back to them not being neglectful but actually abusive.

[user-402520536]

 

Personally, I think Voporak is trying to use the Vahi to go back in time and save his species, or at least kill Sidorak. *cough* *cough* Fanfiction Ideas *cough*

Why would Voporak want to kill Sidorak?

 

 

Like Malachives said, Sidorak betrayed Voporak and, in effect, doomed his species.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

I know people probably get tired of me saying things are garbage, but hey.

 

the great beings are complete and irredeemable trash.

 

 

back on topic, it makes sense both mata nui and the ignika would want to step down into obscurity for a bit, since they've caused loads of secondhand destruction and death simply by existing.

 

voporak also seems to be slipping into the shadows, he's taking legend mask number two with it, by the looks of it.

 

(artakha is already irrelevant by now, with mask number three. legendary masks sure do like falling away like that.)

[bonesiii]

Wow what a lazy great spirit. They're all going to be killed by the Great Beings, just create Irnakk again Ignika then covert them into thought.

Okay, several problems here. First, f Mata Nui just rescues everybody from everything, they themselves would be encouraged to be lazy, so this reasoning is kinda self-refuting. If they don't practice using their own intelligence to solve problems, what happens when they encounter a problem Mata Nui can't fix? Second, Mata Nui probably was not aware there were any serious problems (like GBs possibly killing everybody) that they might need him for. Third, they had just had to fight a deadly and almost unstoppable wannabe tyrant, the Makuta -- in that context it would be kind of insensitive for Mata Nui to set himself up as their ruler; many might (unfairly but still) associate him with Makuta as a "rule all" type. At that time they basically needed some self-reliance for a while, yanno?

 

Fourth and a nitpick -- technically the Ignika didn't (as far as we know) make Irnakk; that was a test on the stairs leading to it. Other tests like the Chamber of Death seemed to have recordings and machinery and so forth, so it's a pretty safe theory (at least as far as I know it's only a theory) that it was a machine that the GBs added for the Nightmares test too (which happened to make Irnakk once as it was the Piraka's nightmare).

 

And finally, he didn't say he wouldn't appear again if they really need him.

 

As to the other posts after that, not sure what's being debated there really. I mean, it's simple fact that the GBs made serious mistakes, but as a whole were not evil. Also, TK was murdered, and by Velika... maybe I misread things but it looked like this was being used to understand GBs as a whole. Velika was a rebel. Anybody saying all GBs are perfect will be wrong (well nobody is so...), but they made many very bad mistakes too. (And Velika basically is evil, even if not Muahaha evil. He justifies what he's doing but he's still a murderer.)

[fishers64]

he might not exactly be (very) empathic or have any moral compass as such; but would it have been impossible to do anything better than locking him up for millennia &/or killing him?

Whilst I don't think it was the right thing to do, killing Carapar doesn't strike me as the sign that someone is evil or necessarily that nasty.

Tren Krom has super-powerful mental powers, up to the point that looking at him would drive you insane. Letting that sort of being loose on either SM or the MU would be unnecessary and cruel, and in the case of the MU, could jeopardize the mission.

 

Locking him up in the MU might have been a contingency in case Mata Nui went bad. Or maybe they didn't have time to get him out of there. In any case, he would need to be locked up or killed. Velika's murder of him in the end was probably wrong through. He probably just wanted to find a nice cave to hide in or something - I never really saw him as a threat to the reform Spherus Magna.

 

At the same time, I have a bit of a time justifying Carapar's murder. I think Carapar was trying to kill him though, so it might have been the only option he had. Still, stealing Lewa (or trying to) seems to establish him as shady in the moral department. He's not a cuddly gelatin you would like to invite over for dinner.

 

I mean, he had been locked up for how long? I don't know how normal or pleasant most things would be after that amount of time imprisoned...

About 100,000 years. I don't know though - the reason solitary confinement drives us up the wall is because we use our senses alone to percieve the outside world. This guy had powerful mental powers. He probably knew what was going on in the universe. (If not, Velika would tell him.) I don't know how bad it really was. 

 

There are mistakes, & then there are mistakes. Thinking that having millions of near-sentient beings wondering around given absurdly powerful abilities isn't ever a fantastic idea if you actually care about the potential beings potential for suffering.

 

Literally comparing the amount of pain & suffering that happened to the millions of things in the Great Spirit Robot can probably be quite easily estimated to be much worse than any single war on earth. A poorly thought out idea that causes general unpleasantness for millions of sentient beings is a monumental failure.

 

Considering the intelligence required to do any number of things they did compared to other beings & feats in-universe... that they didn't foresee how utterly horrible things could have gone despite all their fail-safes is an error that I don't see even two people simply not contemplating et cetera without something wrong with their minds simply does not compute. The only way such a monumental failure I could see caused by a person is simply one by a person who lacked empathy ^{(to the point that only the most extreme case of a clinical narcissist ... & their are actual cognitive issues beyond a lack of empathy, with the latter ...I still don't see it even in the worst case, although this is more theoretical than otherwise... even an utter psychopath has better reasoning capabilities. On a real world note there are such things as functional narcissists & functional psychopaths. They aren't necessarily murderers or committing crimes!)} — which would link back to them not being neglectful but actually abusive.

I dislike breaking this to you, but these entire three paragraphs are incompatible with sound logic. In order for a goal to be achieved that requires effort, something or someone is going to suffer. This is a physical law of our universe, and Bionicle shares this law.

 

This is especially true when you are trying to beat back evil, because evil doesn't care about who suffers or tries to stop it. But who is truly evil here? Let's back up.

 

The first mistake (of the Great Beings) was wanting to push the ruling responsibility on to someone else. They didn't WANT to be rulers. This is not really a selfish desire, it is not evil. (In fact, the opposite - lusting after power and stomping on others to get there - is evil.)They might have also wanted to try out their new elemental-power serum or whatever - that's not necessarily evil either. And they probably wanted to make the new rulers more powerful to avoid wars, tribes taking over each other, insurrections from within tribes, coups, all that other bad stuff. Again, not evil. So they did what they did.

 

Then the Element Lords let the power go to their heads, and selfishly desiring the energized proto for themselves, to the exclusion of sound logic and what their people wanted, they went to war. They were evil. Now the planet is splitting.

 

And the GBs have a choice. They have a goal: to fix the planet of SM after it shatters. They don't want to or can't do the work of that themselves, so they send Mata Nui and all of the people inside of him. And they suffer in pursuit of this goal (which was partly the fault of another evil, selfish being named Makuta Teridax). 

 

The alternative is that the broken pieces of SM finally disintegrate. Everybody dies. If you have a choice between a few biomechanical beings suffering or the deaths of everyone on your planet, including you, you would go for the former. If you knew that the only way to save Earth would be to make a bunch of biomechanical beings and send them into space, you'd do it. We all would. And I would argue that isn't evil either. You're saving people's lives. Sure, it's different from running into a burning building or plunging into ice-cold water to save someone, but the noble intent behind it is still there.

 

So yeah. Element Lords = evil, Makuta Teridax = evil, Velika = evil. Great Beings = mostly not evil. Velika =/= representative of all GBs.  

Edited November 16, 2014 by fishers64

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

Ignika is protected by its rightful guardians (like Umbra) as I recall, the Vahi was probably setting up for some bigger plot point with Voporak but was lost along with the rest of the story when it abruptly ended.

 

-NotS

[Pomegranate]

There's a lot of speculation about the Vahi being in the Okoto story and relating back to Gen 1, so at least as far as the Vahi goes you just may find out what happened with that later on.

If Mata Nui is dormant in the Ignika, I'm sure the Ignika itself has gone dormant as well. It's no longer inside the MU so it's killswitch function is irrelevant, and since it's not a killswitch anymore it really doesn't need to curse everyone that touches it and make guardians and all that... I think it would probably be in some shrine dedicated to honoring the Great Spirit, or under a Turaga's care.

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

There's a lot of speculation about the Vahi being in the Okoto story and relating back to Gen 1, so at least as far as the Vahi goes you just may find out what happened with that later on.

Well, the more Vahi the better. Really cool mask, but very underutilized. 

 

-NotS

[The Hip Historian Iaredios]

I like to think that the Ignika is in a new Kini-Nui in New Atero (called dibs, already being used in my fan-fic. >n>).

 

And I honestly forgot about the Kanohi Vahi. Yeah, I guess Voporahk is cooing it under a mountain somewhere or something like that.

[Ford]

The Ignika is with the Toa, Matoran, Agori, and Glatorian that are assembling a new society on Spherus Magna. Also, if Mata Nui is in the mask now, does it still have the "curse" effect? In other words, in previous story years when beings would touch the Ignika they would have a "curse" put on them, such as Vezon being fused to the mask and Fenrakk/Kardas or Mantax being able to absorb energy from anything around him. So, would the mask still have this effect on anyone who touches it now that Mata Nui is inside of it again?

 

Voporak still has the Vahi, and that's just it. We don't know what he wants to do with it. He also had an obsession with the mask, so maybe he just wanted it because he thought he could amplify his time powers.