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Twister92

Redundancy for Certain Elements?

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Earth. Stone. Both are found in the ground, so why are there two separate elements? I scarcely see a difference between the two, other than the density of the materials involved. This is similar with the elemental power of Iron, which I understand is basically just about metal - also found in the ground. My question is, why not combine them all into an overall element of Earth? You might ask what would become of Pohatu, whose elemental power I say would become Kinetics - a merger of elemental powers of physics such as Sonics, Magnetism, Gravity, et cetera - of course inspired by the discussion "Two Thoughts on Elements" thread. Pohatu as a Toa of Kinetics stems largely from his bearing the Kanohi Kakama, as well as wide open desert to play around with and perhaps the Kohlii football.

 

This is similar with Lightning and Light - come on, just make one elemental for the electromagnetic spectrum and call it Light. Or, combine lightning with Kinetics, since like the forces mentioned above, electricity is a fundamental part of physics.

 

I almost want to see Ice merged with Water, and Psionics be granted to Kopaka and the Ko-Matoran, but we all know why males can't be trusted with that. (Thanks a lot, Toa Orde!)

Edited by Twister92
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No, Ice and Water. To maintain the existence of the Ko-Matoran, they would simply be given Psionics. Similar to how I theoretically assigned Kinetics to Pohatu...

 

However, to digress, if you know of a good ice and psychic Pokémon besides Jynx, please do let me know.

Edited by Twister92

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To be honest, I like all of the elements the way they are. The massive amount of them makes the universe MUCH more realistic, and it also adds a fantastic magical effect at the same time. 


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Earth. Stone. Both are found in the ground, so why are there two separate elements?

Bionicle elements were based on the Greek four elements in essence, but it was felt that four was too small a group for the main heroes, so they split Earth and Stone out, and Ice and Water. They do make a certain amount of sense; you have representatives of all the major states of matter and their subdivisions normally found in nature:

 

Stone -- solid at room temp and completely connected

Ice -- solid, but only if cold

Earth -- solid but not connected entirely so can flow kind of like a liquid.

Water -- liquid

Air -- gas

Fire -- plasma

 

And since these were so well established intrinsically with the main characters of Bionicle, including Pohatu and Onua, Kopaka and Gali, methinks the reboot folks decided it would be too bizarre to change their elements.

 

I scarcely see a difference between the two, other than the density of the materials involved.

? I don't see how it's about density; it's about particle size.

 

This is similar with the elemental power of Iron, which I understand is basically just about metal - also found in the ground. My question is, why not combine them all into an overall element of Earth?

Well, with Gen1's logic anyways, I don't think Metal is a good fit to throw under Earth/Stone, because those are so varied. Just throwing Earth and Stone together already risks being OP.

 

For Gen 2, though, metal might get combined with just one of them, as Jungle apparently has with Air. (I have no idea which would be a better fit, though... It seems very different to me, personally.)

 

You might ask what would become of Pohatu, whose elemental power I say would become Kinetics

As much of a fan of Kinetics as I am, I think it's pretty low on the list of priorities of things that should become elements. I don't see how stone is a natural choice to replace with Kinetics. Seems rather random...

 

a merger of elemental powers of physics such as Sonics, Magnetism, Gravity, et cetera - of course inspired by the discussion "Two Thoughts on Elements" thread.

Not a bad idea for an elemental categorization scheme, but it seems too different to work for Bionicle IMO. I think if you were going to do that, you would need to be creating a story that is intentionally about a small group of very powerful elements, way beyond the definition used for Bionicle (reboot or old), basically "overpowered on purpose".

 

Pohatu as a Toa of Kinetics stems largely from his bearing the Kanohi Kakama, as well as wide open desert to play around with and perhaps the Kohlii football.

Alright, I guess that's a little less random. But don't forget that both of those things came from him being a Toa of Stone. :P The Kakama was to make up for him being naturally slow, like stone, and the Koli being rocks was to emphasize Po-Matoran being really strong and for the "cool factor".

 

This is similar with Lightning and Light - come on, just make one elemental for the electromagnetic spectrum and call it Light. Or, combine lightning with Kinetics, since like the forces mentioned above, electricity is a fundamental part of physics.

Again this would be interesting, but also extremely powerful, seemingly way beyond the levels intended for Bionicle elements. Now you're getting more into Legendary power territory. :P

 

I almost want to see Ice merged with Water

I think with this one, the problem with merging elements from the main six list becomes clearer. Ice and snow may be the same substance as water, but that crucial difference of the temperature creates a radically different environment (not just in how cold it is, but the substance behaves in a dramatically different way). Other substances also have differences between states obviously, but none are as prevalent in nature as ice versus liquid water. And we have whole classes of animals and even plants that are designed to live in those two environments, and they have such radically different features to do that.

 

So, we naturally think of those as two different things. Makes sense whoever picked elements in the Bionicle world would too (GBs in Gen1 MU, Agori/etc. for SM tribes, and who knows for reboot).

 

Earth and stone also create some pretty clear different environments; caves and stone formations on the ground feel quite different and again we see different types of wildlife associated.

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So, you're saying we could just reduce Bionicle to a few elements, say, "Hot Stuff," "Cold and Wet Stuff," "Hard Stuff," "Bright Stuff," and "Force Stuff." Don't you think that's oversimplifying just a little bit?

 

Earth and Stone comes up a lot, and it is a bit ambiguous at times, but it sort of makes sense when you think about it. Metals are radically different from Earth though. Most types of Earth and Stone are softer than metals, melt at lower temperatures, and are more brittle. They require a totally different strategy to use. If you combined them, then you'd have one group of Toa controlling probably 30-40% of the substance of the Matoran Universe (much of the rest of it being water, but that's unavoidable).

 

Kinetics is a cool idea that I wish we had seen, but that's what fanfics are for. :D I could see Pohatu as a Toa of Kinetics, but it would be just another way to alienate old fans to the theme. They aren't exactly the same as those other physics-based powers though. Kinetics, in its usual, sci-fi definition, applies simply to push/pull forces and increasing or decreasing their magnitudes. Sonics is entirely different, dealing with sound waves that, when concentrated, can produce similar effects, but also has the ability to trick the ear, deafen footsteps, or even blast someone's hearing out. Magnetism and Gravity, in a basic, sci-fi way, are fairly similar, though one affects mainly metallic objects for longer periods of time, while the other affects any object while concentration is held, but still, it's an attractive force, not a push/pull.

 

Lightning and Light... I really don't get how you could combine them. Besides being ridiculously overpowered, the only resemblance between the two is lightning gives off light. Lightning can be used to power or fry electric devices and incapacitate enemies. It's a power of energy. Light is more radiance based, able to trick the eyes, fire lasers, and even generate hard light structures. There's very, very little overlap between the two. I'd imagine Light already controls a good bit of the electromagnetic spectrum, but Lightning could not be found there.

 

Ice and Water is another close one, especially with them traditionally used together (see Avatar: the Last Airbender). I think they are distinct enough to be separated in Bionicle. They are both well-known enough to be used for elements on their own, especially with the ice distinction to have power over cold.

Edited by Click
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I agree that ice and stone are some of the redundant elements, but Lego's decision for creating this elements so they could have a bigger team is to blame. Regardless, I don't think it's too big a deal. Gali can't control temperature and Onua can't control pure rock - so the way they wrote it in makes sense. It makes the more periphery elements more excusable as well.

 

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As for Stone and Earth (and metal) I rationalize it this way; Earth is the raw makeup of the land, while stone has been excluded from that by natural erosion or quarrying. Earth is the land, and Stone is chunks of that land ranging from boulder to sand grain. Metal is processed Earth/Stone.


:r: :e: :g: :i: :t: :n: :u: :i:

Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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The Stone/Earth debate pops up so often, it's honestly become an eyesore to even look at a topic that leads with that. Ice and Water would make sense, if water were allowed to then control temperature. But where would that leave Fire? Ice exists as an element so as to be the polar opposite of Fire. 

 

 

Lightning and light... How...? I understand that human science would classify them in a specific category, but as elemental powers, there's next to no overlap there. Same concept applies to merging Sonics with those other two.

 

Simply put, you need to stop looking at the elements on a surface level and look more at what they're intended for. Each one has its own unique functionality and purpose, so there's really no reason to merge them except to make everything oversimplified for very few people.

 

 

No, Ice and Water. To maintain the existence of the Ko-Matoran, they would simply be given Psionics. Similar to how I theoretically assigned Kinetics to Pohatu...

However, to digress, if you know of a good ice and psychic Pokémon besides Jynx, please do let me know.

And therein lies the problem--What I glean from this statement alone is that you're trying to rationalize BIONICLE elements with Pokemon categorization logic. These are two completely different (and SEPARATE) universes, which means different rules. 

Edited by ~T1S~
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Well, I actually enjoy all these new topics coming up about rewriting or redesigning Gen1. It makes me feel like there's life in this old fandom yet, and not just because we've got a reboot. Though, I will agree that applying our advanced perception of science (Earth and rock are the same elements! Sound is just kinetics in the air! Water and Ice are the same thing in different phases! Lightning and Light and magnetism should be merged!) does rob Generation 1 of a little of it's mystique and identity.


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Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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-T1S-:

You do realize the Pokémon part was meant to be humorous, right? Not that I'm lying about my lament that Jynx is pretty much the only Psychic-Ice pokemon, but that part was meant to be humorous.

 

Back at the farm...I suppose as an aspiring scientist, I have trouble not categorizing things accordingly. I realize that there is a better place for Ice and Water to be separate, but I still find myself unable to see Earth and Stone as separate. I will say I find it tad bit...disturbing...that they straight-up replaced Air with Jungle. It makes sense to have a separate vegetation-based element somewhere, but not to replace a wind-based element.

 

Sheesh, someone just give me new Bionicles to build MOCs with.

Edited by Twister92

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Back at the farm...I suppose as an aspiring scientist, I have trouble not categorizing things accordingly. I realize that there is a better place for Ice and Water to be separate, but I still find myself unable to see Earth and Stone as separate.

Lovers of science should be able to appreciate the importance of environment, though. :) The Great Beings were scientists, and they did, when they picked the elements list for their maintenance workers. :) For Ice and Water, I think the key is to look at how essential water is for life. It makes sense not to treat it just like any other element that has both solid and liquid states (and gaseous but that's more obscure in terms of people living amongst clouds :P). For Earth and Stone, less easy, as we seem to be agreeing, but still that importance to life is there. Compare large chunks of rock and small particles of the same stuff (earth) with large pieces of metal and iron shavings. One of these two is very prevalent in nature... one is very much not. :P

 

I will say I find it tad bit...disturbing...that they straight-up replaced Air with Jungle. It makes sense to have a separate vegetation-based element somewhere, but not to replace a wind-based element.

I'll agree with the part I bolded here, although not sure "disturbing" is the right word. However, this is one replacement (or fusion?) that makes a ton of sense, because gobs of fans assumed Lewa was a Jungle Toa from the beginning; he was shown swinging from vines, not flying (originally) in marketing pictures, and he and his people lived among trees, not clouds or whatever. The sense of connection to air was very loose (yeah they're raised up off the ground, but they're really living in jungle; somebody living in a desert is "living in air" too and might even feel more of a connection to it if they lived out where winds were free to blast them, not protected under a jungle canopy).

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Oh, don't get me wrong, Bonesii - importance of environment is fundamental to my field-of-study (meteorology). ;)

In elemental fantasies such as Bionicle, as well as Legend of Zelda, there is an obvious connection between vegetation and air (besides the processes of photosynthesis). Perhaps it is the idea of being off the ground, but I just have trouble with one replacing the other. It was great when they finally made a Toa of the Green, so as to have both.

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I'm one of those folks who, should gravity be added under earth powers, would only miss the word "gravity" being said. :u

 

though i'm also one who thinks earth and stone work pretty well separately.and never really saw a redundancy in those two, (or water and ice, fire and plasma,)

 

Heck, the only element i couldn't stand being a thing that existed was Psionics. :0

 

(also, chiming in with: "The green" was the worst name they could've chosen for plant element, i am so relieved it's "Jungle" now.)

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The Stone/Earth debate pops up so often, it's honestly become an eyesore to even look at a topic that leads with that. Ice and Water would make sense, if water were allowed to then control temperature. But where would that leave Fire? Ice exists as an element so as to be the polar opposite of Fire. 

 

^This so much! (Although hypocrisy late & advanced warning for my posts)

 

Simply put, you need to stop looking at the elements on a surface level and look more at what they're intended for. Each one has its own unique functionality and purpose, so there's really no reason to merge them except to make everything oversimplified for very few people.

 

This would help a lot.

 

But as far as Fire & lightning goes. "Divine Fire" and variations there on, as seen in Chinese & Greek mythology & at least passing mentions in Japanese & Hindu mythology, & various others. (To those versed in these areas, the mixing of terms is deliberately conflational.)

 

I'm one of those folks who, should gravity be added under earth powers, would only miss the word "gravity" being said. :u

 

though i'm also one who thinks earth and stone work pretty well separately.and never really saw a redundancy in those two, (or water and ice, fire and plasma,)

 

Heck, the only element i couldn't stand being a thing that existed was Psionics. :0

 

(also, chiming in with: "The green" was the worst name they could've chosen for plant element, i am so relieved it's "Jungle" now.)

 

Hehe, the more I think about it the more I dislike Gravity as a controllable element, regardless of whether it's by itself or merged with another. It's cool .. it just feels ... too out their for me? But I suppose that's me trying to make a box et cetera >_>

 

Psionics bugged me the most. As far as Earth & Stone goes they don't bother me, but I really think Earth & Metal would have worked better, but I wouldn't like it if they changed it now XD too used to how it is. (Although how you would stop Earth from being OP...)

 

"The Green" was a ridiculous name. I don't know if "flora" is any better, but I'm not a naming department/writer-of-that-series & if nothing else you would avoid the problem by realigning the Elements - which you could do if planning ahead... XD

 

In elemental fantasies such as Bionicle, as well as Legend of Zelda, there is an obvious connection between vegetation and air (besides the processes of photosynthesis). Perhaps it is the idea of being off the ground, but I just have trouble with one replacing the other. It was great when they finally made a Toa of the Green, so as to have both.

 

I'm a huge fan of The Legend of Zelda! I've has an insanely massive interest in both it & Bionicle since I was 5, & for as long as I can remember I've associated 'Flora' with Air/Wind, yet also seen them as distinct (I was thrilled at the Sages of Earth & Wind in WW! & I generally consider there to be 9 Sages...) but having them merged for G2 would make me really happy as Air always seemed under-emphasised in the Le-Matoran, & "the Green" seemed very awkward, because aside from its name Matoran wise it seemed far to similar with Air. I'm really hoping Jungle turns out to be a proper merger not just an outright replacement (I'm pretty confident that it's a merger, although Air sorta shows up in other places).

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the more I think about it the more I dislike Gravity as a controllable element, regardless of whether it's by itself or merged with another. It's cool .. it just feels ... too out their

I dunno, I always felt it was rather down to Earth.

 

(:P)

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Why haven't we collectively chalked up Earth to organic and Stone to inorganic?


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The only things that confuse me are: 

Fire and Plasma. (Fire is a plasma, and a plasma is a superheated gas. Does being a toa of plasma make you turn any gas into plasma or something?)

Iron and Magnetism. (One lets you control metals, the other lets you control magnetic forces. Seriously, Magnetism is very redundant if you can do all that plus more with iron.)


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Why haven't we collectively chalked up Earth to organic and Stone to inorganic?

 

...Because if that were taken literally then it would typically exclude soil & loam.

 

There not that hard to distinguish in terms of raw ideas but linguistically... we seem to prefer to ramble. :P

 

 

Fire and Plasma. (Fire is a plasma, and a plasma is a superheated gas. Does being a toa of plasma make you turn any gas into plasma or something?)

 

That's kinda misleading; Plasma is ionised gas — the 'electrons are floating free' — actually you know what Google has a great definition: "an ionized gas consisting of positive ions and free electrons in proportions resulting in more or less no overall electric charge, typically at low pressures (as in the upper atmosphere and in fluorescent lamps) or at very high temperatures (as in stars and nuclear fusion reactors)."

(Additionally you can have superheated gasses which aren't plasma...)

 

Plasma, like Acid seemed handy for the Bohrok; useful for destroying things. Plasma I can also see having more uses in terms of machinery used in the GSR but anyhow... What can a Toa of Plasma do? Superheat & ionise gas I presume. so yes. But I doubt a Toa of fire could. So isn't Fire < Plasma in pretty much every way, sure you might not have the same amount of control over fire... but quite frankly it seems like between a Toa of Plasma & a Toa of Ice or Water et cetera you've sucessfully amde all Ta-Matoran, Toa, & Turaga redundant.

 

Perhaps beings of elemental fire were more economical than beings of elemental plasma?


~ Sophistry: A way to be antidisuncorrect. ~


 


 


In a decade you might convince maybe a small tribe of people.


In a decade you might also conquer one million km2 of land,


& in over a thousand years you might have over a billion followers.


 


I like building things. Please don't break the big ones.


& evidential philosophies that dare to extrapolate beyond


an individual's direct experience aren't easily built.

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The Green always bothers me. Of all the elements, the Toa is absorbing, creating and manipulating a living thing. It's like having a Toa of Flesh.

 

Plasma is more destructive than fire. You can put out most fires with water, air or earth manipulation. Plasma is incredibly hot just by existing. 'Putting out' plasma should turn it into air.

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:r: :e: :g: :i: :t: :n: :u: :i:

Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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So just for clarification, in story is plasma considered superheated  ionized gas, or is it along the lines of something else, like lava?


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So just for clarification, in story is plasma considered superheated  ionized gas, or is it along the lines of something else, like lava?

 

How would we determine this (question) ? It's treated as a different element, & appears to be considered closer to Fire than say Air, which is kind of different to RL but that's just on how it's talked about not anyone objectively saying anything... (In story Elements seem to be treated as equal[ly different], mostly)

 

In story lava isn't treated as a single element, it's the 'product' of Fire & Earth/Stone... so I'm unsure what your looking for? Sorry :|


~ Sophistry: A way to be antidisuncorrect. ~


 


 


In a decade you might convince maybe a small tribe of people.


In a decade you might also conquer one million km2 of land,


& in over a thousand years you might have over a billion followers.


 


I like building things. Please don't break the big ones.


& evidential philosophies that dare to extrapolate beyond


an individual's direct experience aren't easily built.

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I was just wondering how it's described in story since BS01 is a bit vague on what it actually is other than plasma. Then again, that's not their fault since plasma only appeared once so far as I recall, with the Kal. So, erm, in summary, I guess I'm asking... errr... what is it in story? :shrugs:  As in, is it just some really hot "stuff" (that's what I meant by lava; really hot stuff*), superheated fire (is that even possible?), ionized gas like in real life, or something else? 

 

Sorry, it's just that I've always been sketchy as to what plasma is in the story    

 

 

 

*not 100% scientifically accurate but hopefully you understand what I'm trying to say...


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-T1S-:

You do realize the Pokémon part was meant to be humorous, right? Not that I'm lying about my lament that Jynx is pretty much the only Psychic-Ice pokemon, but that part was meant to be humorous.

 

Back at the farm...I suppose as an aspiring scientist, I have trouble not categorizing things accordingly. I realize that there is a better place for Ice and Water to be separate, but I still find myself unable to see Earth and Stone as separate. 

Probably best to say so, then, because on a site filled with both experts and noobs alike, it's hard to tell when someone is seriously confusing concepts from other toylines that they grew up with rather than making a joke. 

 

I think a simple way to look at it is this:

I tell you to plant a garden, and I give you two types of material to work with. One is a bunch of assorted rocks, and the other a pile of soil. Tell me, which one is going to work best for the majority of plants you might try to grow in this garden? Obviously, the one we call "Earth." Stone isn't gonna do much for ya in this case. That's just one example, though.

 

 

 

Fire and Plasma--as was stated, in some cultures, fire, specifically, is recognized as one of the primary elements, whereas Plasma is getting a tad bit broader and may not be as widely recognized. For example, I barely knew the word "plasma" until the Pahrak-Kal apppeared in story--I've only really known about it for half of my life! fire, on the other hand, is a more familiar concept to just about everyone of any age. 

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~T1S~:

Perhaps I should have used an emoticon; I'm a literalist so I suppose it can be hard for people to not take me literally. I would also quote you directly except I'm having trouble making the site do that for me. The garden analogy makes sense - as I myself help in my Mom's flower and vegetable gardens. Obviously we have earth to plant the flowers and vegetables in, but in the flower gardens we also use rocks to make things look prettier, section off areas, et cetera. I suppose some of my frustration with earth and stone stems from the fact that there aren't many examples of Stone Toa using their elemental power. I'm sure there are others, but the only one I can think of is the Toa battling Makuta in Mata Nui Online Game.

 

As far as plasma, I've known about plasma balls most of my life, and I remember being introduced to plasma as a state-of-matter in junior-high science. It exists between liquid and gas, with fire being a common example thereof (the sun is also an example). This is why you might associate plasma with fire, because many substances you deal with on a daily basis would have to be very hot to reach a plasma state. What if the specific elemental power of Plasma, would be to heat or cool a substance to where the entirety of its affected mass were in a plasma state? And then, this power might be further defined as being able to telekinetically control most substances in a plasma state. This is in comparison to Fire and Ice, which specifically control and govern those elements, and change the temperature with respect to those elements.

 

And I say most substances in a plasma state, because no Bionicle character needs to be able to control the sun, Toa - Bohrok-Kal - Rahkshi - or especially the Makuta. Poor Pahrak-Kal - if his uncontrollable plasma powers are continuing to burn a hole in his surroundings - he must still be falling toward the core of (what is now) the revived Spherus Magna. :onfire:

Edited by Twister92

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Why haven't we collectively chalked up Earth to organic and Stone to inorganic?

Because Earth contains inorganic matter. 

 

Plasma is more destructive than fire. You can put out most fires with water, air or earth manipulation. Plasma is incredibly hot just by existing. 'Putting out' plasma should turn it into air.

That's how I interpreted it in my Toa of Plasma fanfic a year or so ago, so I'm inclined to agree. 

 

So just for clarification, in story is plasma considered superheated  ionized gas, or is it along the lines of something else, like lava?

Yes, it's a superheated ionized gas. It's been confirmed in the Greg dialogues over and over in the past.

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I'll throw my hat into the LEGO bin. Earth, Iron (and all metal, really) and Stone should be merged into Earth (because all these elements make up the lithosphere) and given to Onua, Lewa should get Jungle and Pohatu should get Air. Plasma, as an element, should be regarded as any plasma that ISN'T fire. 

 

But that's just my idea.


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I do feel like the elements list is mixed up already, but I'm not a fan of the ideas presented. I have my own head canons for this stuff, though I do like the idea a little of metal being combined with earth to differentiate it more from stone.

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Why haven't we collectively chalked up Earth to organic and Stone to inorganic?

I was about to reply with this exact comment. That's basically been how I've interpreted it for a long time, and I think it's the only real distinction between the two.

 

Also props for the chalk reference. We've chalked chalk up to Earth too!

 

~B~

Edited by Ballom

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The only things that confuse me are: 

Fire and Plasma. (Fire is a plasma, and a plasma is a superheated gas. Does being a toa of plasma make you turn any gas into plasma or something?)

Iron and Magnetism. (One lets you control metals, the other lets you control magnetic forces. Seriously, Magnetism is very redundant if you can do all that plus more with iron.)

 

In another in-depth discussion on Plasma we had years ago in this forum, plasma was decided to be much more destructive than fire. Fire, for example, would burn a tree, and could slowly spread to the other trees in a forest. A blast of plasma would melt or obliterate the tree and have much less of a chance to cause extra damage. Plasma is precision, but also very hazardous. If you're not careful with a plasma blast, it could very well destroy something unintentionally, so a Toa of Plasma would be hard-pressed to take down an enemy without killing them, while a Toa of Fire would have many more options. Just keep in mind Bionicle is technically sci-fi and acknowledge true physics don't necessarily have to take precedence. :D

 

As far as I know, Iron cannot control magnetism. Yes, you can manually move two pieces of iron together or you could manipulate existing magnetic iron (maybe create it, I don't know), but you cannot apply a magnetic charge without extreme training to orient every single iron atom to produce a charge, or using typical methods (electromagnetism, rubbing with magnetic substances, etc.) Magnetism, compared to that, seems pretty useless. You can create a field around metallic objects that will attract other metallic objects. Sure Gahlok-Kal did some damage with it, but a Toa of Iron could do a lot worse without crushing themselves in the process. :D I'd be all for merging Gravity and Magnetism with Electricity, and just have some rule about how since everything in the MU is Protodermis, Magnetism can affect anything. :D It maybe be less controlled (perhaps a Toa of Magnetism could only magnetize two objects towards each other, ignoring other metallic objects), but it would clean up some things, including overlapping color schemes.

 

The Green always bothers me. Of all the elements, the Toa is absorbing, creating and manipulating a living thing. It's like having a Toa of Flesh.

 

Plants aren't technically alive in the same way a Matoran or Rahi is alive (be quiet, Morbuzahk). To me, it's no more morally wrong than the Makuta's power over Viruses. They can create and modify viruses (at least in our world, living things) to suit their purposes. A Toa of Green can create and modify plants to suit their purposes. Not many people have qualms when they chop down a tree or bioengineer wheat, and, if anything, a Toa of the Green doesn't kill the plants, but creates new ones or modifies them for a purpose.

Edited by Click
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Why haven't we collectively chalked up Earth to organic and Stone to inorganic?

It's been suggested, but then you have the pesky problem of forcing Onua (or writers writing about him) to make sure it's only soil that he ever controls in stories about him. It's too technical -- it's much easier to make it about particle size as Gen1 canon did. :)

 

 

 

"The only things that confuse me are:

 

Fire and Plasma.

 

You and just about everybody else. :P (I'm actually surprised it isn't brought up more often.)

 

This happened for a rather convoluted reason, but one that does actually make sense given the (out-story) history of Bionicle. Five of the later elements were chosen because they were the powers of the Bohrok-Kal, other than green. Green was exempted from this because the normal Bohrok also had something wonky going on with green; five were from the normal six elements (like Tahu's team), but green was Acid (as it was felt Air wasn't effective enough for cleaning an island). And the story team didn't want Acid being an element because it felt more like an evil power (or at least not a Toa element).

 

So, the green Kal's power of Vacuum was decided not to be elemental either, to keep that consistent. But that also implied that the other five Kal elements SHOULD be elements. This was not adopted right away; there was a long period of fans pointing this out, and noncommittal answers, and then a few were adopted (I forget the order), and eventually they all were.

 

The problem with Plasma was that this was not thought through when the Kal elements were chosen. Plasma was picked to be a cool power, and sound really powerful, not with intent to become an element.

 

So, to keep that consistent, a reason had to be come up with to differentiate Fire and Plasma.

 

Greg chose that Fire is a lower-temperature element that works based on combustion; flammable materials react with oxygen, plus a little heat, and that makes fire, but only while combustion is still going on. (This IS the fourth-state, little-p "plasma", but the Big-P Plasma was used in a narrower sense in Bionicle; read on.)

 

For Plasma (the element), the idea was that there's no extra help in getting it into the fourth state of matter -- so no combustion. Instead, the gas is heated all the way to that state the hard way -- superheat. And it will stay in that state until the heat dissipates.

 

So, that basically made Plasma the "super-fire" element. Fire is better for everyday situations, but Plasma Toa would be like super-soldiers you'd call in for extreme situations (or super problem solvers, etc.). :)

 

 

But still... it would have been better had they done things some other way (like pick a better power for Pahrak-Kal).

 

 

 

Iron and Magnetism. (One lets you control metals, the other lets you control magnetic forces. Seriously, Magnetism is very redundant if you can do all that plus more with iron.)

As said above, I'm not sure if Iron can control magnetism, unless they move around a pre-existing magnetized piece of metal perhaps. (Or maybe if they can make natural magnets... but that's not normally what we think of for Iron, at least.)

 

Somebody should do a Greg search on this if they wanna know, really (maybe this was covered in past topics, but for some reason it's not coming to mind...)

 

In any event, even if Iron Toa could make a magnet, that's a far cry from direct control over magnetic fields you can put anywhere, without the giant chunk of metal Iron Toa would need to somehow fit where needed. :P You could change their directions and intensities way faster, and make them effective over a MUCH greater range.

 

 

 

So just for clarification, in story is plasma considered superheated  ionized gas, or is it along the lines of something else, like lava?

 

First, please note that in Bionicle (Gen1) terminology, it's important to capitalize Plasma, as plasma the state includes Fire, but Plasma the element does not. (Not that it really matters... sometimes I slip and uncap Bionicle element names, but in the case of Plasma it's probably best to be clear.)

 

Second, no, it doesn't include lava, but some have gotten confused on that because Pahrak-Kal was shown blasting stone beneath him into lava. That worked because Plasma includes superheat... of course, even Fire had enough heat to melt at least some kinds of rock, but Tahu was only shown slowly cutting it, not instantly liquefying a large area like Pahrak-Kal. Anyways, Plasma can indirectly make lava if there's already some rock laying around, but otherwise no.

 

 

Because Earth contains inorganic matter.

Plus, Stone might include some organic matter. Since it's about particle size, if some natural concrete makes soil particles stick together (soil from rotten plant parts), under Gen1's rules it would be Stone. I don't think such a thing was ever directly stated, or even implied, but we couldn't really rule it out methinks.

 

 

though I do like the idea a little of metal being combined with earth to differentiate it more from stone.

 

Hmm... but wouldn't solid metal fit more naturally with solid stone rather than grainy Earth? If you were going to put it with one of the two. And I tend to think of (though not totally sure) metal as being found in stone as ore, not Earth (which does tend to be soil more often).

 

 

I think it's the only real distinction between the two.

 

I hate to tell you this, Ballom, but the canon particle size distinction is common knowledge, probably one of the most-often stated factoids in S&T. :P (Admittedly because to the fanbase outside BZP it's one of the most confusing, so the question comes up so often, but still... :shrugs:)

 

And I'm not aware of the canon ever implying that Onua only controls organic dirt. That might create some serious problems when he's trying to tunnel under the island (although admittedly his claws and mask would help... still...). It seems likely he'd encounter layers that aren't organic but are small loose particles. That he could get through these might be somewhat reasonable, but then we would be the ones imposing the need on him based on that definition of his element.

 

Plus, it seems weird to see the Toa of Stone as the one controlling super-tiny loose particles of inorganic matter...

 

 

Edit:

 

 

 

I'd be all for merging Gravity and Magnetism with Electricity, and just have some rule about how since everything in the MU is Protodermis, Magnetism can affect anything.

 

But this wouldn't fit with the Gahlok-Kal portrayals in both comic and web forms that showed it only affecting metal and not the dirt and rock all around them.

 

(Not sure this point would matter for Gen2, but you said MU and cited everything being protodermis as a given, which is only true so far for Gen1. Note that the dirt, etc. of the camouflage island were confirmed to be protodermis too.)

Edited by bonesiii
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Well, as I said above, I'd imagine if Magnetism were to be an element, it would have much finer control to justify its apparent lack of abilities (when compared to, say, Ice). A Toa of Magnetism could possibly create localized magnetic fields that only affect chosen objects (because it's Bionicle physics :P). That addition was mainly to add in some justification for merging Gravity with it.

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Just keep in mind Bionicle is technically sci-fi and acknowledge true physics don't necessarily have to take precedence. 

 

I guess I found the main problem.


TOO LATE.

IT WAS ALWAYS TOO LATE.

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The Green always bothers me. Of all the elements, the Toa is absorbing, creating and manipulating a living thing. It's like having a Toa of Flesh.

 

Plants aren't technically alive in the same way a Matoran or Rahi is alive (be quiet, Morbuzahk). To me, it's no more morally wrong than the Makuta's power over Viruses. They can create and modify viruses (at least in our world, living things) to suit their purposes. A Toa of Green can create and modify plants to suit their purposes. Not many people have qualms when they chop down a tree or bioengineer wheat, and, if anything, a Toa of the Green doesn't kill the plants, but creates new ones or modifies them for a purpose.

 

 

 

VIruses in the Bionicle sense are more like programming routines. Plants, however, are still plants. Most of the other elements are fluid, and even Earth, Stone and Ice can behave in a fluid way if they're constantly controlled. Plantlife is a living thing, albeit a living thing operating on a different time scale. Moving existing plantlife around, allowing seeds to grow quickly, general manipulation, that's all fine. It's when Plantlife is treated like an inorganic element that bothers me. Absorbing plantlife and creating it from nothing? Not so appealing. And what in the name of Karzahni is a Nova Blast of the Green (stupid name) supposed to look like? A Reforestation Bomb?

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:r: :e: :g: :i: :t: :n: :u: :i:

Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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It's when Plantlife is treated like an inorganic element that bothers me.

?

 

It isn't... As far as I know... Are you sure this isn't an idea you have had on your own? Rather than something ever meant to be implied by the story? I would think it goes without saying that a Toa of Plantlife is dealing with an organic element...

 

Absorbing plantlife and creating it from nothing? Not so appealing.

Okay? But this seems random to me. And it's not really from nothing, it's from elemental energy just like the other Toa. And those Toa are also doing something we don't see in the real world (unless we presume Star Trek replicators will someday be possible lol); we don't see inorganic matter being made "from nothing" either.

 

what... [does] a Nova Blast of [Plants] look like? A Reforestation Bomb?

I always imagined it as huge trees, and intensely thick ground foliage, growing up instantly near the Toa, and the height fading off with distance, so basically instant, huge jungle. Might also be too chaotic to have properly aligned trees, and plants with roots loose might appear anywhere midair (and then come crashing down... ouch).

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It still bothers me. In a Biomechanical robot full of biomechanical animals and biomechanical plants, you're giving an entire race the ability to control life. Not animal life, but plants. And are plants in the MU even real plants, or just green solar-panel imitations, like the Rahi are to animals? Look, I get that some people like it and can rationalise it, but I'm not one of them. I'd rather have had 'the green' never been included in the elements, and leave the plant thing to the Le-Matoran.

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:r: :e: :g: :i: :t: :n: :u: :i:

Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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It's funny how many times people are using the "bionicle physics" thing here, as if it ever was stated to be an actual thing and not just a way to push problematic elements of the story under the rug.

 

i also always assumed the distinction between fire (flamey stuff) and plasma (glowing mass of doom) was made pretty clear?

 

same for magnetism (control of magnetic fields) and iron (control of metal itself). :0

 

 And are plants in the MU even real plants, or just green solar-panel imitations,

 

I wanna say real plants, but that's just whishful thinking. (and i know someone's gonna correct me and say they're "proto-xylem programmable concepts" or something.)

Edited by Rahkshi Lalonde
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bnnrimg1.pngbnnrimg2.pngbnnrimg3.pngbnnrimg4.pngbnnrimg5.pngbnnrimg6.pngbnnrimg7.pngbnnrimg8.png


Corpus Rahkshi characters: Snap, Teeth ,Rose,Kaita

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It still bothers me. In a Biomechanical robot full of biomechanical animals and biomechanical plants, you're giving an entire race the ability to control life. Not animal life, but plants.

I believe you that it bothers you, but I wonder if this is actually why? Or are you realizing something else and it's not quite connecting consciously -- the big issue to me with Plants is that it seems very overpowered compared to others, since they can make plants with such a wide variety of abilities, toxins, etc.

 

And are plants in the MU even real plants

What is real? [/Morpheus]

 

No seriously, what is it? :P They're artificial, but "real" (they exist, within the fiction). They function as plants...etc.

 

or just green solar-panel imitations

Those aren't mutually exclusive, though; "real" leaves are essentially natural solar panels.

 

like the Rahi are to animals?

I'll go with yes here, I guess. Rahi -are- animals; artificial ones. :)

 

It's funny how many times people are using the "bionicle physics" thing here, as if it ever was stated to be an actual thing and not just a way to push problematic elements of the story under the rug.

Do you have to start with that again? Its intent was not to "push problems under the rug" -- that assumes it has to be a problem that it doesn't work like real life, but the story wasn't meant to be just like real life. They chose to have fictional physics on purpose. Because it's fun that way. :) Which is fine (and beneficial in some ways too, though everything has pros and cons). People are treating it as a normal part of the story because it is. You don't have to like it (tastes vary; that's good), but you shouldn't expect us all to share your subjective perspective on it (heh that rhymes lol).

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No i mean "our physics are different" only ever popped up when something was pried open and analyzed, where it was used to say: "this can happen because this isn't earth"

 

which, sci-fi wise, isn't as intuitive and fresh as you'd like to think. :0

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bnnrimg1.pngbnnrimg2.pngbnnrimg3.pngbnnrimg4.pngbnnrimg5.pngbnnrimg6.pngbnnrimg7.pngbnnrimg8.png


Corpus Rahkshi characters: Snap, Teeth ,Rose,Kaita

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